To Arjac or not to Arjac

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**pretre**

sfshilo wrote:Against a Trygon or Tyrant, a similar squad of TH/SS vanilla termies will do much the same.

Try it, good luck with that. (Hint, ARJAC's throwing hammer attack drops them to I1 before you assault, something the vanilla marines cannot do.)

5 TH/SS charge a trygon.

Trygon, 6 Attacks. Hits on 3's. 4 Hits. Wounds on 2's. 20/6 wounds. 1/3 Die. 20/18 die. So 1 and a tiny bit.
4 TH/SS swing back. 8 Attacks. 4 hits. 20/6 Wounds. 3 Wounds on Trygon. Probably takes another one from fearless.

So yeah... He's dead next turn and 5 TH/SS cost about 200 vs 4 TH/SS WG and Arjac costing 425. Of course Arjac will win in that case. Take 400 points of most armies and apply them to half their points in models (Trygon is 200) and you'll do well.
Also, 10 TH/SS (only 400 vs 425) would have killed the Trygon with one casualty and eaten the Tyrant next. SW really don't do TH/SS termies cost-effectively.

**Brother Gyoken**

It's a really good feeling to drop him in a pod with his buddies, watch him throw his hammer turn 1 and destroy a Monolith (pre-update when it was the most obnoxious thing in their codex) It's more fun to watch that happen at least 3 different times, which is what I've seen personally in my games. If I play my termy guards I ALWAYS roll with the 'Jac.

Only time he hasn't more than made up his points in a game was one time where he took two wounds when alone and I rolled snake eyes to save. Pretty rare occurance.

**sfshilo**

OR take Arjac and 1-2 termies. You don't need five of them with Arjac. (That's the point!) You use power armor guard in the grey hunter squads to fill out the squad.

**pretre**

sfshilo wrote:OR take Arjac and 1-2 termies. You don't need five of them with Arjac. (That's the point!) You use power armor guard in the grey hunter squads to fill out the squad.

Even with one other termie, he's more points than a TH/SS squad (200 vs 251).

I'm not saying he's not effective, but TH/SS vanillas are just as good at killing big bugs for less points.

**sfshilo**

51 points is far less? I'll take 51 points to get eternal warrior in a termie squad any day....Especially with a multi wound character that is S10 and hits everything on a 3+.....

**purplefood**

sfshilo wrote:51 points is far less? I'll take 51 points to get eternal warrior in a termie squad any day....Especially with a multi wound character that is S10 and hits everything on a 3+.....

And has a meltagun (without the melta rule)

**DarkHound**

sfshilo wrote:51 points is far less? I'll take 51 points to get eternal warrior in a termie squad any day....Especially with a multi wound character that is S10 and hits everything on a 3+.....

Mind you, he re-rolls that 3+ against ICs and MCs. And has 5 attacks on the first round of combat.

**pretre**

sfshilo wrote:51 points is far less? I'll take 51 points to get eternal warrior in a termie squad any day....Especially with a multi wound character that is S10 and hits everything on a 3+.....

That's still 3 wounds. 2 on Arjac and one on his buddy. Even with EW and Storm Shields, he can still go down. Again, I'm not saying he is bad; I am saying he is good. I am also saying that the loadout that was described in the OP is expensive and of course it would tear up Tyranid MCs.

**sfshilo**

lol ok pretre, if Arjac is "good" in the scale of Awful, decent, good, amazing....what character is in the amazing chatagory above him?

(Not really a question, more of a point...)

You aren't going to find a model for that price that does what he does anywhere. Logan Grimnar can't even compete with that. The dang text in his profile even alludes to this. Bashful Arjac can't deny his skillzzzzz

**purplefood**

I'd say he's good.
Logan Grimnar has other qualities...

**pretre**

Nm.

**tedurur**

sfshilo wrote:
tedurur wrote:
sfshilo wrote:To those of you that have play tested him, good for you, I disagree with you if you say he's not worth it.

I've never seen 170 points so effective A. Tie up a MC/IC or B. Flat out kill a MC/IC.

Eternal warrior, S10, and a 2+/3+ saves??? What more can you want out of a character in this game?

Play tested against a couple "Big" name models in the game. Two rounds each, first round they charge, second round he charges.

About the only things that can take him on are Blood Thirsters (Which lose if he attacks) or some of the special tyranid MC's. (Which again, usually lose if he gets the charge with that I1 hammer throw attack)

Ghaz, psssh dead meat, Mepheston? HAHAHA, dead meat. Anything eldar gets smashed by that hammer. Tau aren't even worth mentioning.

Points wise Arjac is epic.

I would be most delighted to know how you came to that conclusion...

By rolling dice many many times.

That 3+ invuln with eternal warrior is nasty enough. Oh he's S10 too? AND it's a thunder hammer? And how many wounds?

Underpriced extremely.

DarkHound wrote:If Ghaz is on the charge and has his Waaagh!, he only inflicts one wound on Arjac and takes 1 in return. The following turn Thraka kills Arjac, but suffers 2 more wounds for it. Ghaz really can't go into any new combats now that his invul is used up and he swings on I1, so I'd basically call him dead. Good on Arjac. If Ghaz doesn't get his Invul in the first round of combat, he dies.

Ghazzy always strike on I1 so I fail to see how the ability of the TH matters at all...

Anyway, I fail to see how you came to that conclusion. Arjact has 3 attacks, hitting on 4s with rerolls so will generate 2,25 hits and 1,875 wounds. Assuming Ghaz has his Waaagh its 0,3125 unsaved wounds. Ghazzy charges with 7 attacks hitting on 3s and wounding on twos. 3,888 wounds caused and for 1.3 unsaved. Next turn when Arjac charges he will cause 0,52 unsaved wounds and then lose 0,92 wounds from Ghazzy. SO all in all Ghazzy would lose one wound and Arjac would be dead.

This said tho, Ghazzy will most likely face Arject with GHs and a mob of his own so its not a very useful comparision.

**DarkHound**

Arjac has counter-attack, and he gains an additional +1 attack on the first turn of any combat. He also always hits on 3s, then re-rolls that. Try your math again.

**tedurur**

Ops, forgot about the Wolftooth necless and counter attack. Assuming it goes of (which quite likely but far from certain with ld 9) he will instead cause ~0,5 unsaved wounds in one round and ~0,62 wounds in the next. Not really close to 1 wound in the first turn and 2 in the next...

**DarkHound**

Is that an admission Arjac would rock Ghaz?

Because most SW tourny lists don't use close combat hammers. They rely on cheap S8 shooting, via Landspeeders and Long Fangs. Close combat simply doesn't factor in to their battleplan.

**purplefood**

tedurur wrote:Why is it that Arjac is so seldom seen in a SW tourney list if he is the most aweseomest of the awesome charaters?

DarkHound wrote:Is that an admission Arjac would rock Ghaz?

Because most SW tourny lists don't use close combat hammers. They rely on cheap S8 shooting, via Landspeeders and Long Fangs. Close combat simply doesn't factor in to their battleplan.

Yeah this seems pretty bloody obvious...

**tedurur**

DarkHound wrote:Is that an admission Arjac would rock Ghaz?

Because most SW tourny lists don't use close combat hammers. They rely on cheap S8 shooting, via Landspeeders and Long Fangs. Close combat simply doesn't factor in to their battleplan.

But it seems like a shame to not include the best charater ever anyway...internet hyperbole aside, Arjact is ok but by no means the best thing since sliced bread.

**DarkHound**

No, he's pretty much better than Kharn the Betrayer, and that guy is the best thing since sliced bread.

**JonST**

Is he worth using over a second Long Fangs squad though... He is fun to play and certainly becomes a magnet for damage when he hits the board which is why I have another 3 TH/SS with him I forgot one of the termies is just a heavy flamer and chainfist.