Can I Only Play With the "Good Guys"?

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**CthuluIsSpy**

pretre wrote:
Joey wrote:Well from the rationalist/nihilistic world view that I, apparently, have; nearly all societies are "moral". In fact I would content that an unwillingness to embrace eugenics was humanity's biggest crime, fluff-wise.
I've no idea why people struggle with the "killing a million to save a billion" thing. If you sacrifice a small amount of people to save a much larger amount of people, that is a moral good.

Oh oh. Here comes the moral relativity...

What about if I kill 999,999 people to save 1,000,000 people? What if I torture those 999,999 in the most horrible and reprehensible way possible to save those million people? What if all those 999,999 people are cute little toddlers?

Well, considering how you are basically saving 1 person (1,000,000-999,999)...I would say that it's not really moral. It doesn't help that the 999,999 are innocent (assumingly).

**English Assassin**

Joey wrote:
English Assassin wrote:
Joey wrote:Subjectively you can since the alternative is the end of humanity...that'd suck. And objective morality doesn't exist.

This is the sort of statement I frequently hear from undergraduates in seminars; it's a problematic one since it manages unhelpfully to be both correct and incorrect at the same time.

Human beings can, as your statement demonstrates, possess a concept of objective morality, even if they cannot agree upon its details, or by what, if any, authority it is empowered or defined.

Warhammer 40,000's universe does not appear to contain any kind of omnipotent (let alone omnibenovelent) deity, which throws out many of the most common arguments for objective moral values. However Kant and Bentham both put convincing arguments of "moral universalism" based upon, respectively, the objectivity of reason, and that of quantitative evidence.

What is more relevant to Warhammer 40,000, however, is the philosophy inherent in Darwin (and indeed in Hobbes and Malthus): the simple logic of unending, unfettered competition to survive and expand in a universe of finite resources. Now many (Machiavelli and Hume, for instance) have applied that logic to arrive at perspectives we would call morally nihilistic or relativist - simply put, the conclusion that there is no objective morality, and that the laws we create are created invariably with the intention of benefiting some more than others. Others, however, particularly modern writers of a scientific or materialistic bent (Sam Harris and Daniel Dennett, for instance), contend that, since pragmatic levels of altruism and co-operation are beneficial to survival, whether as an individual, a clade or a species, that what could be called universal moral values can be determined from evolutionary utility.

By that rationale, pretty much everybody in the war-torn universe of the 41st millennium is acting, broadly-speaking, in accordance with good moral values, by attempting to conquer or annihilate all others. The only possible exceptions to this would be Chaos-worshippers, given that "success" for the Ruinous Powers would entail the annihilation of all matter, energy and physical laws, and (presumably) their followers.

Well from the rationalist/nihilistic world view that I, apparently, have; nearly all societies are "moral". In fact I would content that an unwillingness to embrace eugenics was humanity's biggest crime, fluff-wise.
I've no idea why people struggle with the "killing a million to save a billion" thing. If you sacrifice a small amount of people to save a much larger amount of people, that is a moral good.

Well, I'm not going to touch the business of eugenics with a bargepole, and would add that zero-sum questions are considered meaningless in philosophy. What I will say is that respect for individual life and liberty (which includes one's reproductive decisions) is a core principle of pretty much all moral philosophy, regardless of whether the thinker considers moral positions universal or not, since such a respect is essential to the formation and functioning of societies. Speaking as an historian (my actual academic discipline, I just teach first-year combined honours in arts in order to treat myself twice yearly with a big Forge World order), I would add that the principle of "the survival of the fittest" has not favoured states and societies of the sort which have discarded that respect for individual life, much less those which have developed the totalitarian ethos and institutions necessary for such a level of interference in individual lives.

Dabedman wrote:Also, the Chaos Gods subsist on the emotions and fates of the mortal races. Slaanesh survives on pleasure and was created from the decadence of the Eldar race. Khorne lives on a diet of rage and bloodthirst, Nurgle on sickness and Tzeentch on the usage of psychic powers.
Without the mortals in the materium, the deities of the Warp would severely weaken, thus Chaos can never win if they look out for their own good. Success to wipe out the universe would also wipe themselves out.

I steered deliberately clear of making moral statements on the Chaos Gods themselves, not only are they insufficiently well-understood, but the moral principles derived by (or from, depending upon your perspective) human beings are, unsurprisingly, poor instruments by which to measure immortal, reality-distorting beings coalesced over millennia from the emotions of countless billions of sapient lifeforms. (Amusingly, if you're interested, there is however a branch of theology concerned with whether (and why) the moral positions adopted by religions as divine writ apply (or not) to their gods.)

**Dabedman**

I was just saying that Chaos in it self, from how it is portrayed in the fluff, is dependent upon the status quo. I would actually venture as far as to say that the Gods themselves are basically of a neutral morality, what with their strength derived from the actions of others and just not being interested in anything else than the Great Game of Chaos Thrones. In which you win or you die.

Incidentally, "insufficiently well-understood" may perhaps be the greatest phrase ever.

**DarkHound**

Joey wrote:If the Imperium acted in a way that you consider "good", humanity would be wiped out in a matter of years.

The Imperium might be wiped out. Humanity would be fine. Way back when, in the year 29,000, humanity had colonized much of their known universe. They had to put up with, not only all the threats they normally do (save Tyranids), but also a huge variety of smaller empires the Emperor wipe out. They did this without unity or, in many cases, even space travel technology, and had been doing so for about 7 thousand years.

Pretty much everyone resisted the Imperium during their crusade, especially the civilized worlds. Most other civilized humans had formed alliances with all manner of aliens, including the Eldar and were existing peacefully. Rather than working towards peace, the Imperium killed the peace-capable aliens, then killed peace-capable humans because they wanted sole power. The Emperor wasn't trying to save humanity, he just wanted to control it. Both how he got there and what he planned to do afterwards caused more suffering than good. That's pretty much the definition of evil.

**pretre**

@DarkHound: The argument goes that the great crusade was necessary to bring humanity together to face a greater threat. Yes, humanity was doing okay so far, but problems were coming down the road that they needed to be united to face.

Whether that was an excuse or a reason is a different question.

**DarkHound**

The only threat was Tyranids, and the Emperor had no idea they were coming. Give the Eldar 10 thousand years to rebuild and they'd be more than prepared for them. Most Eldar craftworlds liked the humans, except the Biel-tan.

The Chaos Gods gave no gaks about our world, and would never have if the Emperor didn't piss them off by cheating them. Hell, with the Eldar's help, humans wouldn't have fallen to Chaos.

**pretre**

DarkHound wrote:The only threat was Tyranids, and the Emperor had no idea they were coming. Give the Eldar 10 thousand years to rebuild and they'd be more than prepared for them. Most Eldar craftworlds liked the humans, except the Biel-tan.

The Chaos Gods gave no gaks about our world, and would never have if the Emperor didn't piss them off by cheating them. Hell, with the Eldar's help, humans wouldn't have fallen to Chaos.

I think you underestimate inevitability.
Chaos was coming no matter what. They may not have been coming for Terra specifically, but they've been picking off humans for quite a long time and will continue to. Eldar might have tried to help us, but humans are pretty stubborn and numerous. Someone would have fallen and kicked things off even if there was no Horus or Emperor.
Tyranids are coming as long as the Astronomican exists.
Necrons are waking up in 10k years.
Orks are constantly a problem.

If the Long Night taught us anything, Humanity must stay together to stand against the things that go bump in the. If you think each world could hold out on its own or in the small empires against the monstrous things that occured between M30 to M40, you're insane. The Imperium may not be perfect, but it is the best we have.

**Gorskar.da.Lost**

DarkHound wrote:The only threat was Tyranids, and the Emperor had no idea they were coming. Give the Eldar 10 thousand years to rebuild and they'd be more than prepared for them. Most Eldar craftworlds liked the humans, except the Biel-tan.

The Chaos Gods gave no gaks about our world, and would never have if the Emperor didn't piss them off by cheating them. Hell, with the Eldar's help, humans wouldn't have fallen to Chaos.

What makes you think the Eldar would have helped? They never bothered to previously, even after it had become clear that some of the more isolated human colonies had fallen to Chaos.
Indeed, most fluff indicates they have no interest at best in what they consider to be a fairly underevolved race.
Furthermore, we have no idea what the Emperor's master plan actually was, as it's never been properly discussed.
Sure, he wanted to unite humanity, but for what purpose? It's never stated, except in the broadest and most vague of terms.

**Brother Coa**

Good guys in 40k?
Imperium, Eldar and Tau are as far as "Good" guys will go.
Everybody else are bad to worse.

**Gorskar.da.Lost**

Brother Coa wrote:Good guys in 40k?
Imperium, Eldar and Tau are as far as "Good" guys will go.
Everybody else are bad to worse.

Except for Orks. Orks can be regarded as neutral.
And maybe Tyranids too, thinking about it.

**Brother Coa**

Warhammer is told from Human perspective the most yes?
By that - every race other then Eldar and Tau ( who are less evil then most others ) are evil.

If you are looking at universal level then only Chaos and Dark Eldar are evil. Orks and Tyranids are driven by animal instinct, Necrons and Eldar are trying to survive and build their former empires, Tau are evolving and advancing while Humanity is trying to survive and to keep it's domination of the galaxy.

**Joey**

Brother Coa wrote:Orks and Tyranids are driven by animal instinct

And humans aren't?
In fact aren't orks actually fungi? So humans have animal instincts, orks do not.

**Dabedman**

Joey wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:Orks and Tyranids are driven by animal instinct

And humans aren't?
In fact aren't orks actually fungi? So humans have animal instincts, orks do not.

But isn't that even stronger in favour of the Orks? You wouldn't call a mushroom evil, would you?

**kronk**

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Except for Orks. Orks can be regarded as neutral.
And maybe Tyranids too, thinking about it.

I don't see how anyone can read Rynn's World and call Orks Neutral. They, like the Dark Eldar, are the epitome of Chaotic Evil.

The enjoy the suffering of others. The torture and kill for the pleasure of it. Mad Doks perform "experiments" on humans partly because they enjoy hearing them scream.

Tyranids, I'll grant you, are acting on animal instinct. True Neutral, but still a terrible threat to the galaxy.

**Brother Coa**

Joey wrote:
And humans aren't?
In fact aren't orks actually fungi? So humans have animal instincts, orks do not.

We have common sense that enable us to control our animal instincts ( otherwise incest would be as common as Facebook updates ). Orks and Nids cannot, that is a difference between Humans and animals.

**Joey**

Brother Coa wrote:
Joey wrote:
And humans aren't?
In fact aren't orks actually fungi? So humans have animal instincts, orks do not.

We have common sense that enable us to control our animal instincts ( otherwise incest would be as common as Facebook updates ). Orks and Nids cannot, that is a difference between Humans and animals.

So the only reason you don't have sex with your family is because you have to consciously restrain yourself not to? That's just wrong.

Dabedman wrote:
Joey wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:Orks and Tyranids are driven by animal instinct

And humans aren't?
In fact aren't orks actually fungi? So humans have animal instincts, orks do not.

But isn't that even stronger in favour of the Orks? You wouldn't call a mushroom evil, would you?

Of course not. I wouldn't label anything evil that was not an immediate gut reaction to something.

**Brother Coa**

Joey wrote:
So the only reason you don't have sex with your family is because you have to consciously restrain yourself not to? That's just wrong.

That is called morality and I learned that in 3'rd grade of High School from Sociology. It is basically the only thing that part us and animals - the common sense, also known as moral judgment.
Something that both Orks and Tyranids lack thus making them animals in comparison to Humans.

**kronk**

Good: IoM, Space Marines, and Tau.

Neutral: Tyranids.

Evil: Dark Eldar, Orks, Forces of Chaos

I'm undecided on Necrons and Eldar, but willing to listen to arguements either way.

**Joey**

Brother Coa wrote:
Joey wrote:
So the only reason you don't have sex with your family is because you have to consciously restrain yourself not to? That's just wrong.

That is called morality and I learned that in 3'rd grade of High School from Sociology. It is basically the only thing that part us and animals - the common sense, also known as moral judgment.
Something that both Orks and Tyranids lack thus making them animals in comparison to Humans.

So the reason you don't have sex with your relatives is because you were taught not to?
Morality is just a tag we attach to the actions and feelings of ourselves and our social group in order to look down on other groups, who're just as stupid as we are.

**Iranna**

I don't think that you can describe Eldar as good or bad really, I'd prefer to label them as pragmatic if anything. Eldar, like any other race in the 40K setting, have committed terrible atrocities - from a human perspective - but have also shown instances of exemplary morality.

For example in the "Path of the Seer" novel, Thirianna kills two small human children and their mother due to particularly dire prediction of an Aloticii Farseer. Where we see such a thing as barbaric, the Eldar saw it as necessary to halt the spread of Chaos and indeed, Thirianna does reflect on it in several instances throughout the book and questions the morality of not only the act, but also herself.

Whereas, without multiple Eldar interventions so far in the 13th Black Crusade, it is quite possible that Abaddon could have overwhelmed the Cadian system and controlled the space around the Eye of Terror in its entirety.

I'm no philosopher, but I can certainly tell the difference between Pragmatism and Evil.

Iranna.

**Gorskar.da.Lost**

kronk wrote:
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Except for Orks. Orks can be regarded as neutral.
And maybe Tyranids too, thinking about it.

I don't see how anyone can read Rynn's World and call Orks Neutral. They, like the Dark Eldar, are the epitome of Chaotic Evil.

The enjoy the suffering of others. The torture and kill for the pleasure of it. Mad Doks perform "experiments" on humans partly because they enjoy hearing them scream.

Tyranids, I'll grant you, are acting on animal instinct. True Neutral, but still a terrible threat to the galaxy.

That assumes that orks have a human psychological approach to good and evil. In fact, by our standards, they'd be considered insane, not evil. They literally do not see anything wrong or unnatural about what they do. Mad Doks, I'll grant you, are Chaotic Evil, but the average ork is simply acting according to the impulse to fight and beat everything not green - and a fair few things that are green, too.

Also, Joey, for clarification, Orks are both animals and fungi. Just thought you'd be interested to know.

**Brother Coa**

Joey wrote:
So the reason you don't have sex with your relatives is because you were taught not to?
Morality is just a tag we attach to the actions and feelings of ourselves and our social group in order to look down on other groups, who're just as stupid as we are.

Exactly, because that is the primary law we created for our civilization - the moral law. After that we created religious laws and only after that came the civil laws.
Morality is not just a tag, it is entire subject that is studied on universities and represent what make us human in general because each moral if different from person to person.
And moral is something that can only be developed in sentient beings like us, that is what part us from animals.

**DarkHound**

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:What makes you think the Eldar would have helped? They never bothered to previously, even after it had become clear that some of the more isolated human colonies had fallen to Chaos.
Indeed, most fluff indicates they have no interest at best in what they consider to be a fairly underevolved race.
Furthermore, we have no idea what the Emperor's master plan actually was, as it's never been properly discussed.
Sure, he wanted to unite humanity, but for what purpose? It's never stated, except in the broadest and most vague of terms.

If you read the Horus Heresy series, you'll find actually love humans. They were integrated into a few coalitional societies. They see a lot of potential in us and used to go out of their way to help. Eldrad even set up a meeting with Fulgrim to convince him of Horus' imminent betrayal. However, that was ten thousand years ago, and since then humanity has done nothing but kill the Eldar. Genocide tends to put one off.

Whatever the Emperor's plan was, he failed because he refused help. He had no reason to refuse help if his intentions were for a safer man-kind; he had plenty of examples of races co-existing before he crushed them.

**Brother Coa**

Eldrad acted like idiot himself. If he went to the Emperor none of that would happened. Instead, he provoked Fulgrim who was already corrupted by Chaos daemon, and as a result he slaughtered them.

Mankind is helping Eldar in other way - by keeping the Chaos Legions at bay. Not to mention story about Malantai...

**Merc Row**

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:That's the beauty of the game. There really are no bad guys. Just differing shades of grey.

That is about the best why to desricbe the fluff.
however there is the Tau that are good compared to the other races eldar I think just do what they want so they can't get classed as either good or bad.
SM and IG denpends on the chapter/regiment I mean my regiment doesn't care about who they kill so long as they are dead.
but as SoloFalcon said they are all really different shades of grey.
though the Tau would be a shade of blue to be honest

**DarkWind**

"Good" is what you want it to be in WH40K with the exception of the Daemons and DE all armies have a "good" or neutral aspect to it.

Eldar - preserve the ancient order of the galaxy

Chaos Marines - Free humanity from the regime of the Immortal Emperor and introduce an era of galactic "freedom"

Tau - Progress of all races through the greater good

Nids - eat sleep poop

Orcs - eat fight poop

Imperium - guarantee the existence of man and fight off evil gods who intend to enslave man for their "game"

Crons - Kill bugs that do nothing but eat, sleep, and poop aka your local not so friendly Orkin Man (exterminator company in the US)

**DarkHound**

Brother Coa wrote:Eldrad acted like idiot himself. If he went to the Emperor none of that would happened. Instead, he provoked Fulgrim who was already corrupted by Chaos daemon, and as a result he slaughtered them.

Mankind is helping Eldar in other way - by keeping the Chaos Legions at bay. Not to mention story about Malantai...

First, obviously there's the logistical issues. Fulgrim was the closest primarch and there wasn't time to find anyone else. Second, he would never have been able to contact the Emperor and arrange a meeting. Third, if he did, the Emperor would have killed him, because he's just that kind of guy.

I hardly see how it's Eldrad's fault Fulgrim fell to Chaos. He gets points just for trying to help humanity. If anything, it's the Emperor's fault for not warning Fulgrim about the Chaos Gods. Horus, who was told more than Fulgrim, basically only knew that daemons and Chaos gods existed. He wasn't informed who or how, despite the Emperor's working relationship with them.

Mind you, if the Eldar had been allowed to help, there wouldn't be any Chaos Legions to be protected from.

**pretre**

DarkHound wrote: despite the Emperor's working relationship with them.

Alleged.

**Brother Coa**

DarkHound wrote:First, obviously there's the logistical issues. Fulgrim was the closest primarch and there wasn't time to find anyone else. Second, he would never have been able to contact the Emperor and arrange a meeting. Third, if he did, the Emperor would have killed him, because he's just that kind of guy.

I hardly see how it's Eldrad's fault Fulgrim fell to Chaos. He gets points just for trying to help humanity. If anything, it's the Emperor's fault for not warning Fulgrim about the Chaos Gods. Horus, who was told more than Fulgrim, basically only knew that daemons and Chaos gods existed. He wasn't informed who or how, despite the Emperor's working relationship with them.

That is entirely different debate on why Emperor kept Chaos secret, acted like he did etc...

Mind you, if the Eldar had been allowed to help, there wouldn't be any Chaos Legions to be protected from.

I to love Eldar, but they despite Mankind - they were hating us even when we were in our Golden Age, thinking nothing more of us then advanced primitives.

**Gorskar.da.Lost**

DarkHound wrote:
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:What makes you think the Eldar would have helped? They never bothered to previously, even after it had become clear that some of the more isolated human colonies had fallen to Chaos.
Indeed, most fluff indicates they have no interest at best in what they consider to be a fairly underevolved race.
Furthermore, we have no idea what the Emperor's master plan actually was, as it's never been properly discussed.
Sure, he wanted to unite humanity, but for what purpose? It's never stated, except in the broadest and most vague of terms.
If you read the Horus Heresy series, you'll find actually love humans. They were integrated into a few coalitional societies. They see a lot of potential in us and used to go out of their way to help. Eldrad even set up a meeting with Fulgrim to convince him of Horus' imminent betrayal. However, that was ten thousand years ago, and since then humanity has done nothing but kill the Eldar. Genocide tends to put one off.

Whatever the Emperor's plan was, he failed because he refused help. He had no reason to refuse help if his intentions were for a safer man-kind; he had plenty of examples of races co-existing before he crushed them.

I have read the Horus Heresy series, though clearly I interpreted differently. The Eldar in the Cabal, for example, out and out admitted that he hates humans, and the other Eldar don't exactly show this "love" you're talking about when they meet with Fulgrim. Respect? Probably. But love?