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actually i would probally call the orcs chaotic nuetrel more then anything else.they do what suits them, when and how they want, but really dont have "evil" intentions. the war mongering and constant battle is their way of hammering out a "pecking order" if you will, and they are only doing so because its their base nature. much like a lion will stalk, kill and eat its prey. while the mass wars and destruction wrought on imperial worlds are many and thus to the imperials point of view that is evil. but what if orcs invaded a tyranid world? or eldar? the imperium could care less because ITS NOT HAPPENING TO THEM. a hurricane or earthquake that levels a town and kills thousands is not evil. its just doing its thing and its activities or results of said are interpreted as evil by those it affects. (who probally see themselves as the good guys by default, thus their opponents are "bad" or "evil")

Then again all of this "they're evil because of x" being bandied about is entirely from a sole human standpoint. I sincerely doubt the Dark Eldar think of themselves as evil. To use an analogy, from their point of view we are to them as chimps are to us. Them torturing/herding/enslaving/hunting us is no different in many ways than our own treatment of animals we consider completely beneath us.

When considered from a biological standpoint, the only evil force in the universe is the Chaos Gods, as they are essentially attempting suicide instead of expansion.

Thanks for all of the help. I think I'm going to go with either Eldar or Dark Angels. Does anyone have any ideas on how to start these new armies?

First of all, don't use the Dark Angels codex.

It is quite literally the worst codex out right now. Though admittedly they got a faq update that helped crap tons.

For Dark Angels generally you want to go Deathwing, Ravenwing, or Deathraven. This means either go all bikers, all terminators, or lots of termies with some bikes and landspeeders thrown in.

Ratbarf wrote:First of all, don't use the Dark Angels codex.

It is quite literally the worst codex out right now. Though admittedly they got a faq update that helped crap tons.

For Dark Angels generally you want to go Deathwing, Ravenwing, or Deathraven. This means either go all bikers, all terminators, or lots of termies with some bikes and landspeeders thrown in.

Bhawha? They're not THE WORST codex out there. I'd probably rate it better than GK for an all Termy army.

daedalus wrote:

Ratbarf wrote:First of all, don't use the Dark Angels codex.

It is quite literally the worst codex out right now. Though admittedly they got a faq update that helped crap tons.

For Dark Angels generally you want to go Deathwing, Ravenwing, or Deathraven. This means either go all bikers, all terminators, or lots of termies with some bikes and landspeeders thrown in.

Bhawha? They're not THE WORST codex out there. I'd probably rate it better than GK for an all Termy army.

I would too since they have access to cheap deapstrike homers, access to more ranged gear so don't need to buy add ons, etc. DA prob have the best walking termie army out of all the sm books.

Brother Coa wrote:Eldrad acted like idiot himself. If he went to the Emperor none of that would happened. Instead, he provoked Fulgrim who was already corrupted by Chaos daemon, and as a result he slaughtered them.

That's not exactly what happened. They met, Eldrad told Fulgrim about Chaos and Horus, Fulgrim became pissed because Horus was his bro, and his daemon weapon whispered evulstuff to him. Then they fought, the Eldar lost a bunch of guys and an Avatar, Fulgrim lost all of his elite bodyguard.

Ratbarf wrote:Then again all of this "they're evil because of x" being bandied about is entirely from a sole human standpoint. I sincerely doubt the Dark Eldar think of themselves as evil. To use an analogy, from their point of view we are to them as chimps are to us. Them torturing/herding/enslaving/hunting us is no different in many ways than our own treatment of animals we consider completely beneath us.

When considered from a biological standpoint, the only evil force in the universe is the Chaos Gods, as they are essentially attempting suicide instead of expansion.

Humans dont torture/herd/enslave/hunt other sentient species. The DE may think we're chimps but there's a big difference between using animals for resources and willingly torturing intelligent sentient creatures, they're pretty evil whether or no they think so themselves. Also are you implying suicide is evil?

asimo77 wrote:

Ratbarf wrote:Then again all of this "they're evil because of x" being bandied about is entirely from a sole human standpoint. I sincerely doubt the Dark Eldar think of themselves as evil. To use an analogy, from their point of view we are to them as chimps are to us. Them torturing/herding/enslaving/hunting us is no different in many ways than our own treatment of animals we consider completely beneath us.

When considered from a biological standpoint, the only evil force in the universe is the Chaos Gods, as they are essentially attempting suicide instead of expansion.

Humans dont torture/herd/enslave/hunt other sentient species. The DE may think we're chimps but there's a big difference between using animals for resources and willingly torturing intelligent sentient creatures, they're pretty evil whether or no they think so themselves. Also are you implying suicide is evil?

Good and evil are pov. There is no definitive universal definition other then you labeling a behavior you disaprove. Don't try to label non human races with human terms since thats incredibly illogical.

It's not really illogical being human doesn't have to do with it, it's about personhood. The DE are clearly intelligent beings them being human doesn't make a difference. It's more like comparing two separate cultures than two entirely alien species (which they aren't). You really shouldn't subscribe to moral relativism.

Except that eldar percieve things differently than humans due to physiological differences and have developed in an entire different atmosphere. Aside from intelligience and bipedal theyre not that similar.

CuddlySquig wrote:
"You give us a thousand shootas each time we visit and yer ain't got no more worries, see?" -quote box, an ork warboss to a planetary governor. Codex Orks. Page 53

they did change their minds and assaulted them

the greater good is more like join us with diplomacy then we install a new leader with our ideals if it doesnt work then planet goes to hell and we also have that there leaders mind control them and if the last etheral dies then you have another o shavan running around.

Orks may lie alittle but hey who doesnt?? orks well tell you and show you that they hate peace and want war.

asimo77 wrote:

Humans dont torture/herd/enslave/hunt other sentient species. The DE may think we're chimps but there's a big difference between using animals for resources and willingly torturing intelligent sentient creatures, they're pretty evil whether or no they think so themselves. Also are you implying suicide is evil?

Actually, the only things humans don't do out of that list is enslave or herd other species. They torture captured xenos for info, exterminate them whenever possible, and hunt out any popuations that survived the initial assault.

I remember seeing this trolling image using the D&D alignment

Why is Chaos' subtitle the tagline for Necrons?

Marzillius wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Eldrad acted like idiot himself. If he went to the Emperor none of that would happened. Instead, he provoked Fulgrim who was already corrupted by Chaos daemon, and as a result he slaughtered them.

That's not exactly what happened. They met, Eldrad told Fulgrim about Chaos and Horus, Fulgrim became pissed because Horus was his bro, and his daemon weapon whispered evulstuff to him. Then they fought, the Eldar lost a bunch of guys and an Avatar, Fulgrim lost all of his elite bodyguard.

Fulgrim didn't lose all of his bodyguard. He lost a few, but most survived.

Draigo wrote:Good and evil are pov. There is no definitive universal definition other then you labeling a behavior you disaprove. Don't try to label non human races with human terms since thats incredibly illogical.

It would be nice to think people actually read my posts... What you espouse here is moral relativism; the conclusion that value judgements are inseparable from cultural norms. Though this was a fashionable perspective in the mid-twentieth century, it is far from being the only possible conclusion on the universifiability (or otherwise) of ethics. Indeed it is one which has very much fallen out of favour in the philosophical world, since it principally avoids answering moral questions at all. Philosophers, unsurprisingly, consider this a lazy cop-out.

There exists the strong (and indeed compelling) argument, beginning with Kant and Bentham, that reason and empiricism are absolute, and they ability to employ both is inherent to all sapient beings (indeed very possibly to all sentient beings, albeit in vary degrees). Contemporary authors such as Daniel Dennett and that argumentative sod Richard Dawkins have added a quantitative scientific basis to this; that (simply put) the basic elements of human morality exist because they provide evolutionary advantage by facilitating co-operation. These contentions remain hypothetical (which is unsurprising, given the challenges of testability they face) but they do represent - albeit very broadly - the present academic consensus on the subject, principally because they reconcile morally absolutist and nihilist perspectives, and allow moral relativism to be relegated to the field of cultural anthropology.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

asimo77 wrote:

Humans dont torture/herd/enslave/hunt other sentient species. The DE may think we're chimps but there's a big difference between using animals for resources and willingly torturing intelligent sentient creatures, they're pretty evil whether or no they think so themselves. Also are you implying suicide is evil?

Actually, the only things humans don't do out of that list is enslave or herd other species. They torture captured xenos for info, exterminate them whenever possible, and hunt out any popuations that survived the initial assault.

I actually meant humans as in our world, real life, not in the 40k fiction I apologize for not being clear. The "torture/herd/enslave/hunt" langauge was a deliberate repeat of the words used by the person I quoted simply for rhetorical purposes.

asimo77 wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

asimo77 wrote:

Humans dont torture/herd/enslave/hunt other sentient species. The DE may think we're chimps but there's a big difference between using animals for resources and willingly torturing intelligent sentient creatures, they're pretty evil whether or no they think so themselves. Also are you implying suicide is evil?

Actually, the only things humans don't do out of that list is enslave or herd other species. They torture captured xenos for info, exterminate them whenever possible, and hunt out any popuations that survived the initial assault.

I actually meant humans as in our world, real life, not in the 40k fiction I apologize for not being clear. The "torture/herd/enslave/hunt" langauge was a deliberate repeat of the words used by the person I quoted simply for rhetorical purposes.

Huh, maybe you have simply been living within an entirely different timeline than me. Nearly every human society has enacted both torture and enslavement during their history. Several different cultures hunted humans, and what were peasants except human chattel?


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Durza wrote:Why is Chaos' subtitle the tagline for Necrons?

Marzillius wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Eldrad acted like idiot himself. If he went to the Emperor none of that would happened. Instead, he provoked Fulgrim who was already corrupted by Chaos daemon, and as a result he slaughtered them.

That's not exactly what happened. They met, Eldrad told Fulgrim about Chaos and Horus, Fulgrim became pissed because Horus was his bro, and his daemon weapon whispered evulstuff to him. Then they fought, the Eldar lost a bunch of guys and an Avatar, Fulgrim lost all of his elite bodyguard.

Fulgrim didn't lose all of his bodyguard. He lost a few, but most survived.

I beleive it said that all of the Phoenix guard that he brought with him to the surface died there.

DarthSpader wrote:Id go with orcs. Their political views are simple. They have simple goals, and pretty straight forward mentality. They don't use deceit, blackmail, evil chaos psyker powers or follow the whims of some tyrannical hitler bent on genocide.

They do have a might makes right attitude, and want to bash break steal and burn whatever they can, but that's just the way they are, and they don't BS you About it. a horde of orcs shows up and the intent is clear. Not so much with other factions.

Orcs are the least evil out there because they have a simple, straightforward mentality that does not take orders or direction from evil sources.

- Imperium (sm/IG/meq/sob) -'if your diffrent then us we are going to bomb your planet untill it's a radioactive toxic wasteland, or burn, Bolter, crucify you as required.
- tau: if you don't do what we say, we will shoot you and make you do it anyway.
- necrons: GET THE EFF OFF MY LAWN!!!! **gauss fire*** GET THE CORPSE OFF MY DIRT!!
- eldar: your diffrent then us, stoopid and ignorant, so we must "do the galaxy a favor and remove you for your own good"
- dark eldar: BDSM soul vampires
- chaos: evil daemon worshippers
- tyranids: hungry hungry hippos meets aliens multiplied with a bad. Case of the munches.

Long story short; GREEN IZ BEST!

"Huh, maybe you have simply been living within an entirely different timeline than me. Nearly every human society has enacted both torture and enslavement during their history. Several different cultures hunted humans, and what were peasants except human chattel?"

In the day and age will live now it would pretty hard to get away with slavery and the like towards fellow human beings. Yes people were enslaved and tortured in the past it was terrible back then and it's still terrible now. We don't practice it anymore because we've gotten to a point as a society where we recognize its evils. I guess I needed to make it clear that I meant humans in the real world today don't regularly engage in acts of slavery and torture of other sentient beings.

asimo77 wrote:In the day and age will live now it would pretty hard to get away with slavery and the like towards fellow human beings. Yes people were enslaved and tortured in the past it was terrible back then and it's still terrible now. We don't practice it anymore because we've gotten to a point as a society where we recognize its evils. I guess I needed to make it clear that I meant humans in the real world today don't regularly engage in acts of slavery and torture of other sentient beings.

We've got an entire continent where this is the daily routine: it's called Africa. Not to mention North Korea and Cuba.

So you wanna play good guys? Well i guess that appeals to what your own views are. A lot of people will say Tau are good. But that's not true at all really. I'd say your best bet is to make your own chapter of SM. Make them proctectors of civilians of the Imperium or something like that. What defines a certain race as "good" depends what side of the fence you're staning on.

DarkHound wrote:

asimo77 wrote:In the day and age will live now it would pretty hard to get away with slavery and the like towards fellow human beings. Yes people were enslaved and tortured in the past it was terrible back then and it's still terrible now. We don't practice it anymore because we've gotten to a point as a society where we recognize its evils. I guess I needed to make it clear that I meant humans in the real world today don't regularly engage in acts of slavery and torture of other sentient beings.

We've got an entire continent where this is the daily routine: it's called Africa. Not to mention North Korea and Cuba.

Yeah and it's viewed as horrible by nearly all civilized peoples right? That's the whole point, that most people consider that kind of stuff terrible because it is terrible. To tie things back to the original comments: as a whole humanity isn't fond of slavery and torture, the entirety of the Dark Eldar are, that's why they can be called evil.

asimo77 wrote:

DarkHound wrote:

asimo77 wrote:In the day and age will live now it would pretty hard to get away with slavery and the like towards fellow human beings. Yes people were enslaved and tortured in the past it was terrible back then and it's still terrible now. We don't practice it anymore because we've gotten to a point as a society where we recognize its evils. I guess I needed to make it clear that I meant humans in the real world today don't regularly engage in acts of slavery and torture of other sentient beings.

We've got an entire continent where this is the daily routine: it's called Africa. Not to mention North Korea and Cuba.

Yeah and it's viewed as horrible by nearly all civilized peoples right? That's the whole point, that most people consider that kind of stuff terrible because it is terrible. To tie things back to the original comments: as a whole humanity isn't fond of slavery and torture, the entirety of the Dark Eldar are, that's why they can be called evil.

Slavery in the West, which seems to be the only place you're drawing your conclusion from, has only been outlawed for a few hundred years. Out of thousands. The West's stance on slavery and equal human rights is pretty much an incredible anomaly in comparison to the vast majority of human history and culture.

Secondly, the Dark Eldar are only evil to you because you're they're prey. I'm pretty sure his slaves felt that George Washington was evil. (Well maybe not but it is the strange consensus that slave owners were evil.) We don't think twice about destroying an ant colony or a beaver hut. To the Dark Eldar we are no more evolved than an animal which has the ability to create, that's it.

Joey wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Joey wrote:The Imperium of Man are the good guys. People who don't see this are very closed-minded.
Also eldar, possibly. Or Tau, but they're sissies.

Good by merit that they're just doing what they have to to survive.
I doubt you can subjectively call a totalitarian state which has highly repressive tendencies good, but objectively it's for survival, so it can be argued to be good in the long run.

Subjectively you can since the alternative is the end of humanity...that'd suck. And objective morality doesn't exist.

Ignatius wrote:

Joey wrote:The Imperium of Man are the good guys. People who don't see this are very closed-minded.
Also eldar, possibly. Or Tau, but they're sissies.

Awesome. Just awesome.

I suppose though that the Imperial Guard and other non marine humanoids would be the least evil. You may say that the Imperium is terribly xenophobic and all that nonsense but when it comes down to it, the normal human soldier is probably fairly innocent- save for the indoctrination regimen they are subject to.

Also, if we still lived with dinosaurs, I'm pretty sure you would want them killed off because they are a threat to humans-much like xenos are.

Well yeah. Also bare in mind that xenophobia in 40k is literal. Irl it means being afraid of foreigners, in 40k it's a rational reaction to external threats. Life is a struggle, men do what they can to survive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mentlegen324 wrote:

Joey wrote:The Imperium of Man are the good guys. People who don't see this are very closed-minded.
Also eldar, possibly. Or Tau, but they're sissies.

The Imperium are definately not the good guys.

If the Imperium acted in a way that you consider "good", humanity would be wiped out in a matter of years.

Sigh...

Time for a breakdown, children. You all need to understand that the term "Good Guys" is a perspective-based identity term, and has virtually nothing to do with the benevolence of said faction. "Good Guys" don't even have to be remotely good, they are simply the side that you as the user identify the most with. They are 'your side' of the conflict. We must remember, in Nazi Germany, there were many people who truly believed the Wehrmacht were the good guys, and the Americans were evil capitalist pigs. Heck, even in Star Wars, if you read into back story, there are quite a few fictions where you can see the war from the Imperial perspective, and see that there are people that truly believe in the Empire's cause. They see what we see as the bad guys, in fact as their good guys.

So one must recognize, 'Good Guys' is really all about who you truly believe are right. I, for one, am a xenophobic human who puts the survival and expansion of my race above most other values, so to me the IoM are the 'Good Guys'. The rest is up to you. Maybe you think that in order for the Galaxy to finally be 'good', all biological life must be wiped out. In that case, Necrons are your 'Good Guys'. You must think of it like a Super Bowl with several more teams. Some of you will be rooting for one team, some for another, and then another; those are your good guys, but they may not be mine.

-Fin


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pretre wrote:

Joey wrote:Well from the rationalist/nihilistic world view that I, apparently, have; nearly all societies are "moral". In fact I would content that an unwillingness to embrace eugenics was humanity's biggest crime, fluff-wise.
I've no idea why people struggle with the "killing a million to save a billion" thing. If you sacrifice a small amount of people to save a much larger amount of people, that is a moral good.

Oh oh. Here comes the moral relativity...

What about if I kill 999,999 people to save 1,000,000 people? What if I torture those 999,999 in the most horrible and reprehensible way possible to save those million people? What if all those 999,999 people are cute little toddlers?

Heh...I can only picture the smugness you typed this counter-argument with. But the answer is still yes. Speaking relatively, what you've done is still quite immoral, but to let the million perish is even more immoral. So relatively, you have done the more moral deed by sacrificing the 999,999.

I see it like this
(described in terms of Dungeons and dragons)

IOM: Lawful Neutral they don't wipe out those who obay their law

Tau: lawful Neutral

Eldar: Neutral (they really only care about how it effects them)

Dark Eldar: evil they enslave torture kill they have only one use for everyone else slaves

tyranids: neutral (they don't care they do their own thing)

Necrons; lawful neutral

orcs:chaotic Neutral no defined evil as such just a natural urge to fight that explodes when poulation reaches a certain density.

Chaos: Chaotic Evil: hates everyone else and would destroy each other if they could.

Eldar are clearly the only good guys, because they're the only ones not wanting to wipe out a sentient species.

And, yes, Orks, Tyranids, Daemons, Necrons, Tau, and Humans are all non-sentient. Eldar exist on a higher plane of consciousness and are actually self-aware. Humans have the ability to describe sentience, but they don't actually posses it.

Grakmar wrote:Eldar are clearly the only good guys, because they're the only ones not wanting to wipe out a sentient species.

And, yes, Orks, Tyranids, Daemons, Necrons, Tau, and Humans are all non-sentient. Eldar exist on a higher plane of consciousness and are actually self-aware. Humans have the ability to describe sentience, but they don't actually posses it.

i chuckled ... seriously this is why they are not good its called arrogance

Necrons are pretty much neutrall.

English Assassin wrote:

Draigo wrote:Good and evil are pov. There is no definitive universal definition other then you labeling a behavior you disaprove. Don't try to label non human races with human terms since thats incredibly illogical.

It would be nice to think people actually read my posts... What you espouse here is moral relativism; the conclusion that value judgements are inseparable from cultural norms. Though this was a fashionable perspective in the mid-twentieth century, it is far from being the only possible conclusion on the universifiability (or otherwise) of ethics. Indeed it is one which has very much fallen out of favour in the philosophical world, since it principally avoids answering moral questions at all. Philosophers, unsurprisingly, consider this a lazy cop-out.

There exists the strong (and indeed compelling) argument, beginning with Kant and Bentham, that reason and empiricism are absolute, and they ability to employ both is inherent to all sapient beings (indeed very possibly to all sentient beings, albeit in vary degrees). Contemporary authors such as Daniel Dennett and that argumentative sod Richard Dawkins have added a quantitative scientific basis to this; that (simply put) the basic elements of human morality exist because they provide evolutionary advantage by facilitating co-operation. These contentions remain hypothetical (which is unsurprising, given the challenges of testability they face) but they do represent - albeit very broadly - the present academic consensus on the subject, principally because they reconcile morally absolutist and nihilist perspectives, and allow moral relativism to be relegated to the field of cultural anthropology.

Of course philosophers wouldn't like this because it would give them a lot less to do everyday. You can label behavior whatever you want but in the end the term good and evil are methods to describe the majorities accepted and disapproved behavior. The only definative line of behavior is not good and evil so much as what is needed to survive. I also find it funny that this was not in response to your post so I think you need to read more. People adapt their behavior to survive in what the majority deems socities ways.