Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Mephiston is hardly OP. Sure some armies may find him a little harder than others, but when it comes down to it he is usually overrated. Shouldn't feel bad about taking him unless it is really killing the fun of the game with your friends, but then try to help them figure out how to deal with him first as it'll make up for it with them much more than simply retiring him.

The problem with the whole "shoot all your AP1/2 weapons at him and he might die in a few turns" tactic......is that it doesn't work......ever.......ever. Anyone who plays Mephiston is going to have him in cover until he jumps into your face and starts slaughtering your units left and right. He's a MC on a small base so you'll be lucky to ever even see him until he strikes. Besides, even if you do see him and get to shoot at him, he'll almost always get 4+ cover, AND you have to waste all your heavy shots on one broken model, leaving the rest of the BA army free to advance and annihilate your forces at will.

Sure, if you get lucky and the BA player is a moron, you might have Mephiston dead by turn 2 or 3, but that means all of those Razorbacks and Baals have had 2 or 3 turns of unanswered shooting phases. That kind of thing is fine in larger games or competitive ones, but in small games, there's no place for it. It's a WAAC tactic that turns people away from playing against that BA player. I've seen it happen several times.

bmoleski wrote:The problem with the whole "shoot all your AP1/2 weapons at him and he might die in a few turns" tactic......is that it doesn't work......ever.......ever. Anyone who plays Mephiston is going to have him in cover until he jumps into your face and starts slaughtering your units left and right. He's a MC on a small base so you'll be lucky to ever even see him until he strikes. Besides, even if you do see him and get to shoot at him, he'll almost always get 4+ cover, AND you have to waste all your heavy shots on one broken model, leaving the rest of the BA army free to advance and annihilate your forces at will.

This is really exaggerating the case, isn't it? If he has a good covered approach and no psychic defense is in position to stop him from flying, he'll usually charge on turn 2 or 3. Depending on what he charges he'll usually wipe it out, maybe suffering a wound or two in return if the unit had a power fist. Then he can Consolidate to get a cover save if favorable terrain is handy. If he gets that cover save, I agree it takes a lot of shooting to finish him off.

That's why it's important for the opposing player to set a trap for him, positioning the unit/s he can readily assault so that they're either not next to area terrain, or are non-walker vehicles which he can't consolidate after killing.

Alternately you can place your units deep into difficult terrain, to force a test for him. Remember that he's not an MC or IC, so doesn't have 3d6 move through cover. Just the basic 2d6.

Alternately he can be killed by a countercharge from an appropriate assault unit- the ubiquitous TH/SS terminators are good at killing him. Thunderwolves with a fist or TH or two (and Rending with their other attacks) will reliably get 2-3 wounds on him in a round.

Even Necrons can counter him to some extent with Mindshackle/Warscythe on non-IC Lords. Each round Mephy has a 50/50 chance of hitting himself in the face instead of attacking, and the Warscythe will put around 1W/rd on him. Nevermind actually using Lychguard, of course. LG with shields bounce half of his attacks and wound him on a 5+ with no save. And you can combine that with warscythe/mindshackle.
EDIT: Can't believe I forgot Wraiths! Coils make Mephy I1. Then six wraiths get 18 attacks (assuming Mephy charged), hit 9, inflict one rend and a few more armor saves. If they charge it's an average of 2 rends.

I don't feel that I exaggerated all that much (maybe a little ) as Mephiston does leave himself open to fire and getting charged after he has inevitably wiped out whatever unit he charged, but I've found that after he gets into combat, with all the wounds he has, he's most likely going to destroy several units before he is finally brought down. But like I said, his real strength comes from forcing you to concentrate on destroying HIM, or letting him plow through unit after unit as you concentrate on fighting the rest of the BA army. It becomes difficult to deal with both in smaller games as you probably don't have the resources for it. In larger games, however, I don't mind Mephiston. He just doesn't make for a fun game in smaller points.

Yeah, in small games (say below 1500) he's probably a bit much, though if folks have some assault terminators and/or a bit of plasma he can be dealt with.

A mate of mine, the kind of mate that you throw insults at constantly during a game, takes him in almost every list he plays. He gets a lot of abuse for it (well we insult him for playing a codex written by Mr Ward in general, but this is extra special), but typically rarely wins his games due to his armies just being filled with overpowered units (ie Mesphiston, 20 Death Company, 2 Landraiders...flamy variants, and a few dreads is a 1500pts list). He hits pretty hard, but doesn't do so well against a few Leman Russ Demolishers or twenty orks on the charge. =P

The answer is plasma/melta, which most armies can field relatively easily. He's a mean son of a bitch, but not impossible to kill or anything. I had a rough time against him with my IG once though; that wasn't terribly fun.

If playing IG FRFSRF is your best man. Same procedure for lasguning termies. Make them save and those 1s will come up often enough.

Granted its a little harder to kill him due to higher toughness and wounds but the same principle. A leman Russ Execution helps too

Mannahnin wrote:

bmoleski wrote:The problem with the whole "shoot all your AP1/2 weapons at him and he might die in a few turns" tactic......is that it doesn't work......ever.......ever. Anyone who plays Mephiston is going to have him in cover until he jumps into your face and starts slaughtering your units left and right. He's a MC on a small base so you'll be lucky to ever even see him until he strikes. Besides, even if you do see him and get to shoot at him, he'll almost always get 4+ cover, AND you have to waste all your heavy shots on one broken model, leaving the rest of the BA army free to advance and annihilate your forces at will.

This is really exaggerating the case, isn't it? If he has a good covered approach and no psychic defense is in position to stop him from flying, he'll usually charge on turn 2 or 3. Depending on what he charges he'll usually wipe it out, maybe suffering a wound or two in return if the unit had a power fist. Then he can Consolidate to get a cover save if favorable terrain is handy. If he gets that cover save, I agree it takes a lot of shooting to finish him off.

That's why it's important for the opposing player to set a trap for him, positioning the unit/s he can readily assault so that they're either not next to area terrain, or are non-walker vehicles which he can't consolidate after killing.

Alternately you can place your units deep into difficult terrain, to force a test for him. Remember that he's not an MC or IC, so doesn't have 3d6 move through cover. Just the basic 2d6.

Alternately he can be killed by a countercharge from an appropriate assault unit- the ubiquitous TH/SS terminators are good at killing him. Thunderwolves with a fist or TH or two (and Rending with their other attacks) will reliably get 2-3 wounds on him in a round.

Even Necrons can counter him to some extent with Mindshackle/Warscythe on non-IC Lords. Each round Mephy has a 50/50 chance of hitting himself in the face instead of attacking, and the Warscythe will put around 1W/rd on him. Nevermind actually using Lychguard, of course. LG with shields bounce half of his attacks and wound him on a 5+ with no save. And you can combine that with warscythe/mindshackle.
EDIT: Can't believe I forgot Wraiths! Coils make Mephy I1. Then six wraiths get 18 attacks (assuming Mephy charged), hit 9, inflict one rend and a few more armor saves. If they charge it's an average of 2 rends.

Mind Shackle will actually do the trick. make him hit himself and then activate his own force weapon. and poof. mephi problem solved. It has happened to me before! Also, JoWW can kill him as well. Although it is a bit harder as you would need mephi to roll a 6 on his Initiative test.....

I also agree with TWC being able to deal with him easily enough. In my view TWC are OP and are an instant win once they get into CC (which usually happens around turn 2). Although they can be countered by just standing in a ruin, denying them the ability to assault you.....

I guess it really just depends on the opponent. If they don't mind, then I will field him. if they do i will switch him out. What it all boils down to is that 40K is a game and is meant to be fun, some people just don't see it that way. They always say that if you want to be a better player you need to play "up" to get there. It will just increase your abilities as a tactician and will help you in the future.

Wyrmalla wrote:A mate of mine, the kind of mate that you throw insults at constantly during a game, takes him in almost every list he plays. He gets a lot of abuse for it (well we insult him for playing a codex written by Mr Ward in general, but this is extra special), but typically rarely wins his games due to his armies just being filled with overpowered units (ie Mesphiston, 20 Death Company, 2 Landraiders...flamy variants, and a few dreads is a 1500pts list). He hits pretty hard, but doesn't do so well against a few Leman Russ Demolishers or twenty orks on the charge. =P

DC, Redeemers and Dreads aren't exactly 'overpowered' or even 'good.' He's losing because his list is bad regardless of Mephiston.

Corrode wrote:

Wyrmalla wrote:A mate of mine, the kind of mate that you throw insults at constantly during a game, takes him in almost every list he plays. He gets a lot of abuse for it (well we insult him for playing a codex written by Mr Ward in general, but this is extra special), but typically rarely wins his games due to his armies just being filled with overpowered units (ie Mesphiston, 20 Death Company, 2 Landraiders...flamy variants, and a few dreads is a 1500pts list). He hits pretty hard, but doesn't do so well against a few Leman Russ Demolishers or twenty orks on the charge. =P

DC, Redeemers and Dreads aren't exactly 'overpowered' or even 'good.' He's losing because his list is bad regardless of Mephiston.

In a club where most everyone takes take on all comers lists facing an army that consists of two dozen models at best is a bit off putting. I wouldn't bad mouth the guy calling him bad, the guys I play against are all as terrible as each other, so it evens out. =P

Wyrmalla wrote:

Corrode wrote:

Wyrmalla wrote:A mate of mine, the kind of mate that you throw insults at constantly during a game, takes him in almost every list he plays. He gets a lot of abuse for it (well we insult him for playing a codex written by Mr Ward in general, but this is extra special), but typically rarely wins his games due to his armies just being filled with overpowered units (ie Mesphiston, 20 Death Company, 2 Landraiders...flamy variants, and a few dreads is a 1500pts list). He hits pretty hard, but doesn't do so well against a few Leman Russ Demolishers or twenty orks on the charge. =P

DC, Redeemers and Dreads aren't exactly 'overpowered' or even 'good.' He's losing because his list is bad regardless of Mephiston.

In a club where most everyone takes take on all comers lists facing an army that consists of two dozen models at best is a bit off putting. I wouldn't bad mouth the guy calling him bad, the guys I play against are all as terrible as each other, so it evens out. =P

so his army can't hold objectives, has two tanks which are point sinks and die at the sniff of a melta/lance (which they will be in range of seeing as LRRs only work at close range) and an HQ who dies to mass small arms fire and at best has 24 models? and you'r calling this broken/OP ?

A mate of mine, the kind of mate that you throw insults at constantly during a game, takes him in almost every list he plays. He gets a lot of abuse for it (well we insult him for playing a codex written by Mr Ward in general, but this is extra special),

So you insult him for playing a ward dex and you insult him for playing Mephiston? You are friends right?

I'm right there with the guy who dosen't field special characters in games under 2k........

GW haven't priced a character right in years......

They are so cheap..... and basically ruin games outright by being on the field..

Vulkan, Meph, Draigo etc are all way to cheap.... re reolling melta guns for the same price as a tooled up captain is ludicrous....

And why would a forge father be in a fight at 1500 pts? He goes to battles not a sunday afternoon pea shooter evenet...

but that is just me =]

Deadshot wrote:If playing IG FRFSRF is your best man. Same procedure for lasguning termies. Make them save and those 1s will come up often enough.

It takes 390 Lasgun shots to kill him. Good luck!

Any game using Mephiston is not a friendly game IMHO.

I've never really had a problem with Mephiston. I havne't had to much trouble dealing with him, with my Necrons. I've got an abundant amount of tools to deal with him.

For Necron Players, a few sweeps, and a few Eldritch lances toast him pretty quick.

I had a friend unload 3 full guard companies of footsloggers on Meph with FRFSRF and he took 2 wounds. As has been said, his strength is that he's something you simply cannot ignore, and takes a bit of killing to bring down.

I've also charged Meph into a full mob of biker nobz with power claws, and had him die to the counterattack. And if someone's fielding anything that forces psychic tests on 3d6, he does little more than die horribly from perils tests.

Using FRFSRF against Mephiston is like using a fly swatter (or rather, a series of fly swatters) to stop a steamroller. It's the wrong tool for the job. Plasma will do you.

Also, the guy saying Death Company and Land Raider Redeemers are cheesy is telling a really funny joke and doesn't even know it. DC aren't very good at all, and Land Raider Redeemers conveniently need to be close enough that melta guns and powerklaws - their natural enemies - can be in optimal range.

bmoleski wrote:The problem with the whole "shoot all your AP1/2 weapons at him and he might die in a few turns" tactic......is that it doesn't work......ever.......ever. Anyone who plays Mephiston is going to have him in cover until he jumps into your face and starts slaughtering your units left and right. He's a MC on a small base so you'll be lucky to ever even see him until he strikes. Besides, even if you do see him and get to shoot at him, he'll almost always get 4+ cover, AND you have to waste all your heavy shots on one broken model, leaving the rest of the BA army free to advance and annihilate your forces at will.

Sure, if you get lucky and the BA player is a moron, you might have Mephiston dead by turn 2 or 3, but that means all of those Razorbacks and Baals have had 2 or 3 turns of unanswered shooting phases. That kind of thing is fine in larger games or competitive ones, but in small games, there's no place for it. It's a WAAC tactic that turns people away from playing against that BA player. I've seen it happen several times.

This is exactly correct, and not one bit exaggerated.

If Meph didn't have Fleet and Wings of Sanguinius, then he'd be just fine. But hes so fast and has such a large threat range that even things like Mindshackle Scarabs don't work, because Meph can just outrun them and wipe out everything else. Also, MSS only have a 50% success rate against Ld 10

Falco wrote:Mind Shackle will actually do the trick. make him hit himself and then activate his own force weapon. and poof. mephi problem solved.

You can not force Meph to "activate his own force weapon", as the MSS only allow hits to be done to Meph. It does not mention that the necron player gets to use the opponents Psychic powers.

DeathReaper wrote:

Falco wrote:Mind Shackle will actually do the trick. make him hit himself and then activate his own force weapon. and poof. mephi problem solved.

You can not force Meph to "activate his own force weapon", as the MSS only allow hits to be done to Meph. It does not mention that the necron player gets to use the opponents Psychic powers.

I'm not willing to start this all up again, because there have been several very ugly threads about it. However, I will say this: many people disagree with you, and this question needs to be FAQ'd. Now, let's move on before this question completely derails the thread.

Well for those who think Meph is overpowered.

Name what armies he's overpowered against? It should be a better way of concluding it.

pppffft! asdrubael vect will eat him for breakfast! I killed him on the charge.. he didn't even get to hit back!

azazel the cat wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:You can not force Meph to "activate his own force weapon", as the MSS only allow hits to be done to Meph. It does not mention that the necron player gets to use the opponents Psychic powers.

I'm not willing to start this all up again, because there have been several very ugly threads about it. However, I will say this: many people disagree with you, and this question needs to be FAQ'd. Now, let's move on before this question completely derails the thread.

If they disagree then they really need to read the rules in question to solve their disagreement.

But yes it has been discussed at length and does not need to be rehashed here.

P.S. Mephiston is good, and will generally kill more than a land raider for the same points, but without an Invuln save he is not OP.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Well for those who think Meph is overpowered.

Name what armies he's overpowered against? It should be a better way of concluding it.

Um....all of them? Cept maybe GK, SW, and obviously BA. Mephiston vs. Mephiston.....who would win

bmoleski wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Well for those who think Meph is overpowered.

Name what armies he's overpowered against? It should be a better way of concluding it.

Um....all of them? Cept maybe GK, SW, and obviously BA. Mephiston vs. Mephiston.....who would win

All of them?

Necrons have wraiths and various other tricks
Eldar have mapwide 3D6 for his psyker rolls
All space marines (cept BT) have librarian hoods
Khorne chaos daemons have 2+ inv saves vs his force weapon,
Imperial Guard can run him off the table with their OP psyker ability weaken resolve, or tarpit him in a huge wave of units, or all the various artillery, plasma, and melta...
Tau have at least 3 suits with plasma guns that can kite him
Sisters of battle have plenty of melta, multimelta, rending heavy bolters, sister repentia that can still hit him even if they die.
Orks...Have issues there, though they can Deff Rolla him.
Dark eldar have tons of dark lights, blasters, and enough poisoned weapons that he won't survive to make his time
Tyranids can shadow of the warp him, as well as down him with paroxysm

So the only race with a real issue, is black templar which has no real counter aside from massive numbers of attacks.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

A mate of mine, the kind of mate that you throw insults at constantly during a game, takes him in almost every list he plays. He gets a lot of abuse for it (well we insult him for playing a codex written by Mr Ward in general, but this is extra special),

So you insult him for playing a ward dex and you insult him for playing Mephiston? You are friends right?

0.o How else do you talk to your wargamer buddies?

Wyrmalla wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

A mate of mine, the kind of mate that you throw insults at constantly during a game, takes him in almost every list he plays. He gets a lot of abuse for it (well we insult him for playing a codex written by Mr Ward in general, but this is extra special),

So you insult him for playing a ward dex and you insult him for playing Mephiston? You are friends right?

0.o How else do you talk to your wargamer buddies?

As for original topic, do you have some specifics to give about armies / people who will be your opponents? Or are you asking about the reaction of random people?
Because as you can see in this thread the reactions can be from absolutely not to absolutely yes. It's better to gather info from the target. So no one here can give you a definite answer how random people will react / feel.
If you know someone don't have appropriate minis to field a force that can oppose him it would be a nice thing to let mephy stay at home.

A good comparison for Mephiston is the Trygon prime, ones a Psyker the other has Shadow in the Warp, neither have invulnerables, both are S6 and T6, Meph has 1 wound and 1 standard attack less. Both can re-roll to hit, both can Fleet but Meph can fly as well if he passes the test. The Trygon's shooting attack is better IMO. They seem very similar but I see no hate against Trygons, let alone the fact that you can take 3.

phantommaster wrote:A good comparison for Mephiston is the Trygon prime, ones a Psyker the other has Shadow in the Warp, neither have invulnerables, both are S6 and T6, Meph has 1 wound and 1 standard attack less. Both can re-roll to hit, both can Fleet but Meph can fly as well if he passes the test. The Trygon's shooting attack is better IMO. They seem very similar but I see no hate against Trygons, let alone the fact that you can take 3.

Trygon is also one of the biggest models in the game (excluding Forge World), so you aren't gonna find it cover anywhere. Besides, those two units have two very different roles.