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Mephiston can get cover easier but he can also take a Perils, fail Dangerous Terrain if he jumps in or out, lots can go wrong and it has done to me on many occasions. I even had him die from a Monolith exploding.

I don't believe they have different roles. They are both designed to hit at the hardest part of the enemy and win. Neither can sit back and hope for the best they both have to get stuck in or they're just a waste of points.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
So the only race with a real issue, is black templar which has no real counter aside from massive numbers of attacks.

Use Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch. Roll a 5+ to cancel any psychic power mapwide.

Deadshot wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
So the only race with a real issue, is black templar which has no real counter aside from massive numbers of attacks.

Use Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch. Roll a 5+ to cancel any psychic power mapwide.

That's only for abilities that target or include them in the AoE, it is NOT a map wide librarians hood.

As Mephistons abilities are self-targetted, this ability is worthless.

It's also never taken over preferred enemy or the S5 one.

As an Imperial Guard player i just have him charge a blob. He can only kill at best 6 on the charge. Whopie do ho. Your badass monsterous creature killed 6 guardsmen. Please excuse me while the rest of my army blows you away while mephi is tarpitted.

Horribley op you say? Then why is it in the first round I killed him with 12 heavy bolter shots?

Asherian Command wrote:Horribley op you say? Then why is it in the first round I killed him with 12 heavy bolter shots?

You got incredibly lucky. I assume you were shooting Space Marines so BS4? So only 8 should've hit. Heavy Bolter is S5 correct? So I'll round up and say you should've gotten about 4 wounds. He has a 2+ save so he should've saved most if not all of them.

Yeah you got very lucky. Doesn't make him any less OP.

Deadshot wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
So the only race with a real issue, is black templar which has no real counter aside from massive numbers of attacks.

Use Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch. Roll a 5+ to cancel any psychic power mapwide.

Better yet, take Accept Any Challenge because it's always useful, then hit him with TH/SS Terminators. They'll block most of his attacks with their shields, then turn him into hamburger with their thunder hammers. They're pretty close to being a hard counter for Mephiston and big expensive units/characters without invuln saves.

bmoleski wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Well for those who think Meph is overpowered.

Name what armies he's overpowered against? It should be a better way of concluding it.

Um....all of them? Cept maybe GK, SW, and obviously BA. Mephiston vs. Mephiston.....who would win

Any army, from any codex, built to compete and win in a normal tournament, can kill Mephiston, without needing to get lucky.

Heck, I can't believe I forgot CCB warscythe Sweep attacks in the list of things Necrons can do about him! You really have to be careful or lucky using Meph against Necrons, or have an incompetent opponent.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:As an Imperial Guard player i just have him charge a blob. He can only kill at best 6 on the charge. Whopie do ho. Your badass monsterous creature killed 6 guardsmen. Please excuse me while the rest of my army blows you away while mephi is tarpitted.

The BA player who uses Meph to target the blob is dumb, if theres even a blob. With IG so often mech'd up, he's even more dangerous.

I know what you're saying, but a BA player will be using him to destroy small squads and larger units, not to assault a a guardsmen blob w/o more troops.

Twiqbal wrote:know what you're saying, but a BA player will be using him to destroy small squads and larger units, not to assault a a guardsmen blob w/o more troops.

You assume that most people aren't terrible at this game.

I get that most armies can deal with him at the larger point levels, but not in the smaller games. He doesn't belong in smaller games. Most armies don't have what it takes to deal with him in smaller games.

bmoleski wrote:I get that most armies can deal with him at the larger point levels, but not in the smaller games. He doesn't belong in smaller games. Most armies don't have what it takes to deal with him in smaller games.

Conversely, he costs more than a Land Raider and if you can tarpit him or kite him then you're effectively playing up 250 points.

Mannahnin wrote:

bmoleski wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Well for those who think Meph is overpowered.

Name what armies he's overpowered against? It should be a better way of concluding it.

Um....all of them? Cept maybe GK, SW, and obviously BA. Mephiston vs. Mephiston.....who would win

Any army, from any codex, built to compete and win in a normal tournament, can kill Mephiston, without needing to get lucky.

Heck, I can't believe I forgot CCB warscythe Sweep attacks in the list of things Necrons can do about him! You really have to be careful or lucky using Meph against Necrons, or have an incompetent opponent.

If by 'careful' you mean 'keep him in area terrain', then yes. However, that is extremely easy considering 25% of the board should be terrain, and Meph can move 13-18" each turn.
And Sweep Attacks will only only hit 2 out of 3 swings if the Barge moves 6" or less. Against Meph's T6, only 1 will wound. So now the CCB w/ Overlord has taken off 1 of Meph's 5 wounds. Then Meph moves behind the barge, destroys it with his Plasma Pistol, then proceeds to assault and kill the Overlord.

With regard to Wraiths, a full unit will knock off 2-3 wounds from Mephiston before he wipes out two-thirds of the unit. The second round can go either way based on luck. However, a full Wraith unit costs about the same as Mephiston, and you get a 50% chance at best of killing him.

Yes, Necrons have many ways to chip away at Mephiston, but they have no singular answer. This goes back to what I said previously: it requires focusing the entire army for at least a full turn in order to kill Mephiston: that's something that will often lose you the game even when you do bring him down.

Here is a list of armies that can deal with Meph is a reasonable manner:
Grey Knights (massed force weapons)
Space Wolves (Rune Priests)
Eldar (Eldrad)
Demons (power weapons)

The problem with Mephiston is his speed. He can outrun virtually anything he doesn't want to engage with, so any remotely competent player will always be using Meph to fight on his own terms. If you take away either Wings of Sanguinius or Fleet, then Meph becomes reasonable. Or else you take away 2 of his wounds. But as it is, he is the single most overpowered model in 40k. Lots of people claim that he's not overpowered because he doesn't have an invulnerable save, but that wouldn't be overpowered; that would be nigh invincible.

azazel the cat wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Any army, from any codex, built to compete and win in a normal tournament, can kill Mephiston, without needing to get lucky.

Heck, I can't believe I forgot CCB warscythe Sweep attacks in the list of things Necrons can do about him! You really have to be careful or lucky using Meph against Necrons, or have an incompetent opponent.

If by 'careful' you mean 'keep him in area terrain', then yes. However, that is extremely easy considering 25% of the board should be terrain, and Meph can move 13-18" each turn.

If he begins or ends his move in Area Terrain, and uses his Wings, he has a 1/6 chance of suffering a wound with no save. Make sure your opponent is taking those checks!

azazel the cat wrote:And Sweep Attacks will only only hit 2 out of 3 swings if the Barge moves 6" or less. Against Meph's T6, only 1 will wound. So now the CCB w/ Overlord has taken off 1 of Meph's 5 wounds. Then Meph moves behind the barge, destroys it with his Plasma Pistol, then proceeds to assault and kill the Overlord.

The odds of Meph shooting down the barge with his plasma pistol are similar to the chances of dealing 3 wounds to him with a single sweep attack. If the Overlord has mindshackle scarabs (as he usually does), then Meph has a 50/50 chance of attacking himself instead of the Overlord.

azazel the cat wrote:Yes, Necrons have many ways to chip away at Mephiston, but they have no singular answer.

That's true of every army fighting a deathstar HtH unit which doesn't have its own deathstar. And usually the non-DS armies are tactically superior because they have more flexibility.

azazel the cat wrote:This goes back to what I said previously: it requires focusing the entire army for at least a full turn in order to kill Mephiston:

Not in my experience. Don't waste shots which have a low percentage. Hit him with the stuff that reliably wounds him, and use the stuff that doesn't against the rest of the army.

azazel the cat wrote:The problem with Mephiston is his speed. He can outrun virtually anything he doesn't want to engage with, so any remotely competent player will always be using Meph to fight on his own terms.

This is not true in my experience. You can easily lay traps for him, expose him to fire, and kill him. At 250pts he usually has to eat more than two units to equal out his cost. And against a competent opponent it's hard to do that. It takes him 2-3 turns just to get to the first one.

azazel the cat wrote: If you take away either Wings of Sanguinius or Fleet, then Meph becomes reasonable.

If you can negate wings he becomes 250pts of wasted space, for the most part. When Runes of Witnessing is on the table he sucks.

azazel the cat wrote: Or else you take away 2 of his wounds. But as it is, he is the single most overpowered model in 40k. Lots of people claim that he's not overpowered because he doesn't have an invulnerable save, but that wouldn't be overpowered; that would be nigh invincible.

The Psyfleman Dread is better, point for point. As is the Grey Hunter.

I never realized "friendly game" meant "don't use the units I want to use".

I mean, there are two reasons to play a game and they are non exclusive: Have fun, and win. You can do these things by being a nice person when you play, not by arbitrarily restricting your list.

I'll play against any army and build, I'll probably lose because I am not actually that great, but I only won't have fun if the other guy is being a dick, and not if he takes Mephiston/Draigo/Ghaz/whoever else is considered OP this month.

The only time I would consider limiting myself is if I regularly play with a small group of people and none of them have been able to figure out an answer for my list and are clearly getting frustrated, then in the interests of diplomacy I might change things up a bit. Ideally I'd work with them on building a better army but you do what you have to do to keep friends happy.

Who/what is the Grey Hunter?

bmoleski wrote:Who/what is the Grey Hunter?

It is a SW troops choice.

Meph is not nearly as OP as people like to make out he is. If your army cannot deal with him, then your list is not good enough. And most likely couldn't deal with an all-termie army or paladins either.

Raise your game, never lower it.

I can see by the number of comments on this thread that it is a 50/50 shot of being a dick or just challenging your opponent. I don't think that Mephi should be restricted to the type of game you play. I think it should depend on the local meta game. I play at a store with a fair number of new players and would never put him in a game with said new guys. I will only play him against other players around the same skill set as myself or those wishing to get better (which should be everyone). But of course there are those players that just like to whine about loosing. If i want to sink 15-25% of my list into a single unit I should be able to. It would be like a GK player going up against a Nids player. That is basically instant win as every unit on the table has s force weapon and can remove MC with a single wound going through. I think that GW made him a fair unit as he is not able to join other units. If Mephi was able to join a unit of TH/SS termies or deep strike that would just be unfair, but since he cant, he is out there solo. Also, with the amount of AP 1/2 weapons that seem to be dominating the game right now (melta/plasma/lascannons, etc.) most armies should be able to deal with him. I think that a lot of the whining now comes from the older codices. Maybe 6th ed will see a change in the way lists are made and mephi will not be seen as much.

Also, I think that Tau can deal with him no problem. Missile Pods and Plasma make short work of him.

bmoleski wrote:Who/what is the Grey Hunter?

Your gaming group is awesome, and I want to play in it. It must be the promised land, or something. A Grey Hunter is the basic troop choice for Space Wolves. They are almost universally considered to be 15-20% undercosted, with probably the most flexibility of any troop option in 40k.

Mannahnin wrote:Any army, from any codex, built to compete and win in a normal tournament, can kill Mephiston, without needing to get lucky.

Heck, I can't believe I forgot CCB warscythe Sweep attacks in the list of things Necrons can do about him! You really have to be careful or lucky using Meph against Necrons, or have an incompetent opponent.

Mannahnin wrote:If he begins or ends his move in Area Terrain, and uses his Wings, he has a 1/6 chance of suffering a wound with no save. Make sure your opponent is taking those checks!

Mephiston would have to take 30 DT tests in order to get killed. At most, he will have to take 2 or 3 before he's where his general wants him to be.

Mannahnin wrote:The odds of Meph shooting down the barge with his plasma pistol are similar to the chances of dealing 3 wounds to him with a single sweep attack. If the Overlord has mindshackle scarabs (as he usually does), then Meph has a 50/50 chance of attacking himself instead of the Overlord.

Plasma Gun has Str 7, so it has a 1/3 chance to pen the rear armour of a CCB, and a 50% chance to at least glance it, which gets a +1 on the damage chart because it is open-topped.

Mannahnin wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:Yes, Necrons have many ways to chip away at Mephiston, but they have no singular answer.

That's true of every army fighting a deathstar HtH unit which doesn't have its own deathstar. And usually the non-DS armies are tactically superior because they have more flexibility.

The problem is that most deathstars can't move 13-18" per turn and still assault, and completely hide in terrain, because most deathstars aren't a single, small model with Fleet that can fly. Meph's high initiative, number of attacks and his Force Weapon prevent him from being successfully tarpitted by anything cheap enough to be used as a tarpit. So unless you have a horde army, Meph will stomp his way through your unit.

Mannahnin wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:This goes back to what I said previously: it requires focusing the entire army for at least a full turn in order to kill Mephiston:

Not in my experience. Don't waste shots which have a low percentage. Hit him with the stuff that reliably wounds him, and use the stuff that doesn't against the rest of the army.

Here is a list of Necron units that can reliably wound Meph via shooting (because CC Necrons cannot catch Meph): Heavy Destroyers, Lanceteks. That is all. Keep in mind, this is an army with zero options to negate psychic powers, very expensive transports, and I2.

Mannahnin wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:The problem with Mephiston is his speed. He can outrun virtually anything he doesn't want to engage with, so any remotely competent player will always be using Meph to fight on his own terms.

This is not true in my experience. You can easily lay traps for him, expose him to fire, and kill him. At 250pts he usually has to eat more than two units to equal out his cost. And against a competent opponent it's hard to do that. It takes him 2-3 turns just to get to the first one.

There have been times when I've managed to sacrifice a CCB in order to knock off a wound or two, and then used two units of Heavy Destroyers to bring Meph down. But that's a huge investment of resources, meanwhile Meph's army is full of fast vehicles that are advancing. Also: Meph only has to sink two Necron vehicles to get his points back. Or one transport and its troops.

Mannahnin wrote:

azazel the cat wrote: If you take away either Wings of Sanguinius or Fleet, then Meph becomes reasonable.

If you can negate wings he becomes 250pts of wasted space, for the most part. When Runes of Witnessing is on the table he sucks.

No, he becomes a reasonable unit. How many armies, exactly, have access to Runes of Witnessing?

Mannahnin wrote:

azazel the cat wrote: Or else you take away 2 of his wounds. But as it is, he is the single most overpowered model in 40k. Lots of people claim that he's not overpowered because he doesn't have an invulnerable save, but that wouldn't be overpowered; that would be nigh invincible.

The Psyfleman Dread is better, point for point. As is the Grey Hunter.

I can't compare the Psyfleman Dread because my experience with them is very limited. However, I would say that the Grey Hunter, point for point, is either on par or close enough that the power difference is negligible. I suppose I can concede that the Grey Hunter is better because they can play every role in 40k, including scoring, whereas Meph only has two roles: wreck your opponent's face, and a firepower sink.

However, I think I mentioned several pages ago that as a Necron player, I am horribly biased against Mephiston, as his rules set seems like it was almost designed to kill the Necrons specifically. (in the same way that Necrons seem like they were designed to kill IG specifically)

Wow that's a big post...

lol the way it was originally worded (the Grey Hunter) I thought they were talking about a single model/character....lol there are several SW players in my group who use Grey Hunters.....I feel stupid

haha azazel, according to certain pieces of fluff, the BA and the Necrons are allies!

Falco wrote:haha azazel, according to certain pieces of fluff, the BA and the Necrons are allies!

I knew that picture was going to show up as soon as Falco said it

haha only a matter of time......I love this game.

The sweep attack is part of movement so you can turn around to face meph on the other side and if he was going around a flank to hug terrain you probably won't be exposing the rear armor to enemy shooting by doing so. He can probably fly all the way back to the rear armor but that's 12" in the wrong direction to only get about a 16% chance of wrecking the barge with the pistol.

Necrons might not have any singular fix but that's not the same as it taking overwhelming effort to stop him, a few shots, a sweep, a few warscythe/hyperphase/rending/monstrous creature/successful shackle hits once he reaches you. Same as deamon princes or big nids. Not tough.

He's a monstrous creature on a 25mm base, he maybe surprises people that don't know about him the first time they face him but he's really not OP, just a solid unit you need to look out for.

azazel the cat wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:

bmoleski wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Well for those who think Meph is overpowered.

Name what armies he's overpowered against? It should be a better way of concluding it.

Um....all of them? Cept maybe GK, SW, and obviously BA. Mephiston vs. Mephiston.....who would win

Any army, from any codex, built to compete and win in a normal tournament, can kill Mephiston, without needing to get lucky.

Heck, I can't believe I forgot CCB warscythe Sweep attacks in the list of things Necrons can do about him! You really have to be careful or lucky using Meph against Necrons, or have an incompetent opponent.

If by 'careful' you mean 'keep him in area terrain', then yes. However, that is extremely easy considering 25% of the board should be terrain, and Meph can move 13-18" each turn.
And Sweep Attacks will only only hit 2 out of 3 swings if the Barge moves 6" or less. Against Meph's T6, only 1 will wound. So now the CCB w/ Overlord has taken off 1 of Meph's 5 wounds. Then Meph moves behind the barge, destroys it with his Plasma Pistol, then proceeds to assault and kill the Overlord.

With regard to Wraiths, a full unit will knock off 2-3 wounds from Mephiston before he wipes out two-thirds of the unit. The second round can go either way based on luck. However, a full Wraith unit costs about the same as Mephiston, and you get a 50% chance at best of killing him.

Yes, Necrons have many ways to chip away at Mephiston, but they have no singular answer. This goes back to what I said previously: it requires focusing the entire army for at least a full turn in order to kill Mephiston: that's something that will often lose you the game even when you do bring him down.

Here is a list of armies that can deal with Meph is a reasonable manner:
Grey Knights (massed force weapons)
Space Wolves (Rune Priests)
Eldar (Eldrad)
Demons (power weapons)

The problem with Mephiston is his speed. He can outrun virtually anything he doesn't want to engage with, so any remotely competent player will always be using Meph to fight on his own terms. If you take away either Wings of Sanguinius or Fleet, then Meph becomes reasonable. Or else you take away 2 of his wounds. But as it is, he is the single most overpowered model in 40k. Lots of people claim that he's not overpowered because he doesn't have an invulnerable save, but that wouldn't be overpowered; that would be nigh invincible.

Necrons have wraiths that lower him to I1 and rending and various other tricks
Eldar have mapwide 3D6 for his psyker rolls
All space marines (cept BT) have librarian hoods
Khorne chaos daemons have 2+ inv saves vs his force weapon,
Imperial Guard can run him off the table with their OP psyker ability weaken resolve, or tarpit him in a huge wave of units, or all the various artillery, plasma, and melta...
Tau have at least 3 suits with plasma guns that can kite him
Sisters of battle have plenty of melta, multimelta, rending heavy bolters, sister repentia that can still hit him even if they die.
Orks...Have issues there, though they can Deff Rolla him.
Dark eldar have tons of dark lights, blasters, and enough poisoned weapons that he won't survive to make his time
Tyranids can shadow of the warp him, as well as down him with paroxysm, and lowers him to I1 with instant death ability on weapons.

Since you all ignore it on the second page..

I think people ignored it because most of those tactics don't actually work very well against him. Sure they're gimmicks that can slow him down a little, but they're not that effective.

bmoleski wrote:I think people ignored it because most of those tactics don't actually work very well against him. Sure they're gimmicks that can slow him down a little, but they're not that effective.

Gimmicks that just slow him down? I picked out the ones that accurately can help kill him (well cept the space marine one, but hey I was reaching a bit)

Can he be put in a squad ??? What about a transport?? He's not an ic right ?


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Can he be put in a squad ??? What about a transport?? He's not an ic right ?