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Fafnir wrote:Huh... I had someone try that two days ago against previously mentioned friend's Mephiston. 5 wraiths and a lord. Mephiston went through the lord 3 times, and killed the wraiths 4 times before he went down.

I know what you're thinking. The Necron player didn't know his own rules. But the initiative penalty and rending were definitely there.

Well seeing as unless the lord was overloaded on items, it was still cheaper than taking down meph, it's kind of an interesting trade.

Of course bad dice screw us all when we least likely know it. That one is the enemy!

Fafnir wrote:Huh... I had someone try that two days ago against previously mentioned friend's Mephiston. 5 wraiths and a lord. Mephiston went through the lord 3 times, and killed the wraiths 4 times before he went down.

I know what you're thinking. The Necron player didn't know his own rules. But the initiative penalty and rending were definitely there.

The Necron player would also have to somehow catch Mephiston, which as mentioned before, is pretty unlikly or the BA player would have no other targets left for Mephi to go after. I am not a Necron player myself, is there is a way for Wraiths and the lord to catch Mephi?

Falco wrote:

Fafnir wrote:Huh... I had someone try that two days ago against previously mentioned friend's Mephiston. 5 wraiths and a lord. Mephiston went through the lord 3 times, and killed the wraiths 4 times before he went down.

I know what you're thinking. The Necron player didn't know his own rules. But the initiative penalty and rending were definitely there.

The Necron player would also have to somehow catch Mephiston, which as mentioned before, is pretty unlikly or the BA player would have no other targets left for Mephi to go after. I am not a Necron player myself, is there is a way for Wraiths and the lord to catch Mephi?

..They are jump infantry, that can go through any type of terrain.

They can also use tremor staves, to force dangerous terrain checks as meph moves.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Fafnir wrote:Huh... I had someone try that two days ago against previously mentioned friend's Mephiston. 5 wraiths and a lord. Mephiston went through the lord 3 times, and killed the wraiths 4 times before he went down.

I know what you're thinking. The Necron player didn't know his own rules. But the initiative penalty and rending were definitely there.

Well seeing as unless the lord was overloaded on items, it was still cheaper than taking down meph, it's kind of an interesting trade.

Of course bad dice screw us all when we least likely know it. That one is the enemy!

Keep in mind, Mephiston took down the wraiths 4 times over when they shouldn't have resurrected.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Falco wrote:

Fafnir wrote:Huh... I had someone try that two days ago against previously mentioned friend's Mephiston. 5 wraiths and a lord. Mephiston went through the lord 3 times, and killed the wraiths 4 times before he went down.

I know what you're thinking. The Necron player didn't know his own rules. But the initiative penalty and rending were definitely there.

The Necron player would also have to somehow catch Mephiston, which as mentioned before, is pretty unlikly or the BA player would have no other targets left for Mephi to go after. I am not a Necron player myself, is there is a way for Wraiths and the lord to catch Mephi?

..They are jump infantry, that can go through any type of terrain.

They can also use tremor staves, to force dangerous terrain checks as meph moves.

Thanks. Yeah wriaths sound like a good counter.

azazel the cat wrote:Right. And why are you bringing this up? I thought it had been clearly established that Eldar was the one army that can handle Meph with the least difficulty.

So, here's my challenge: please find a TAC Necron list that can bring down Meph, and still hope to win at the rest of the game. Keep in mind the ubiquitous 4+ cover save.

I've faced Mepiston twice with my Necrons, and he was never really an issue. My lances either toasted him, or he got tied up by wraiths.

You're a fan of Deathmarks, why not drop a squad of those on him? They should take out reliably 2-3 wounds with a Abyssal staff. From there it's only a single sweep attack, or a few lances and he goes down.

One of the best things about Mephiston vs Necrons, is if he is charging a regular squad of troops, he is surely going to wipe them out, and leave him open for to be gunned down in your next turn.


This is at 2k points though, He would be a much bigger nightmare at lower point levels.

Fafnir wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Fafnir wrote:Huh... I had someone try that two days ago against previously mentioned friend's Mephiston. 5 wraiths and a lord. Mephiston went through the lord 3 times, and killed the wraiths 4 times before he went down.

I know what you're thinking. The Necron player didn't know his own rules. But the initiative penalty and rending were definitely there.

Well seeing as unless the lord was overloaded on items, it was still cheaper than taking down meph, it's kind of an interesting trade.

Of course bad dice screw us all when we least likely know it. That one is the enemy!

Keep in mind, Mephiston took down the wraiths 4 times over when they shouldn't have resurrected.

Which is strange, because your lord alone would come with a power weapon at least (warscythe), and you get approximately 15 rending attacks (without charge), and all of that hitting first.

And he's hitting back with his force weapon against 3++ (well except the lord obviously) on T5 models.

And it's likely the lord had MSS too, 50% chance of giving meph to hit himself.

I'll put that down to the guy playing the Necrons.

Sasori wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:Right. And why are you bringing this up? I thought it had been clearly established that Eldar was the one army that can handle Meph with the least difficulty.

So, here's my challenge: please find a TAC Necron list that can bring down Meph, and still hope to win at the rest of the game. Keep in mind the ubiquitous 4+ cover save.

I've faced Mepiston twice with my Necrons, and he was never really an issue. My lances either toasted him, or he got tied up by wraiths.

You're a fan of Deathmarks, why not drop a squad of those on him? They should take out reliably 2-3 wounds with a Abyssal staff. From there it's only a single sweep attack, or a few lances and he goes down.

One of the best things about Mephiston vs Necrons, is if he is charging a regular squad of troops, he is surely going to wipe them out, and leave him open for to be gunned down in your next turn.


This is at 2k points though, He would be a much bigger nightmare at lower point levels.

Oh yeah, when I see Meph on the board the first thing I do is send a unit of Deathmarks after him. Usually the Deathmarks & some Heavy Destroyers will bring down Meph ina turn, assuming I can catch him outside of cover. But as you said, that's at 2k.

Which is I believe where this all started, after someone made the comment that bringing Meph to a game under 2k points is kinda an asshat move.

EDIT: And also, some math-hammer!

6x Wraiths on the charge get 24 attacks
Wraiths at WS 4 against Meph's WS 7 means 12 hits
Wraiths' Str 6 against Meph's T6 means 5 normal wounds and 1 rending wound
Meph suffers 1.83 wounds.
Meph makes 4 attacks.
Meph at WS 7 against the Wraiths' WS 4 means 2.67 hits
Unleash Rage re-rolls hits, adding 0.89 hits, for a total of 3.56 hits
Sanguine Sword jacks up Meph's Str to 10 against the Wraiths' T4 means 2.97 wounds
Wraiths suffer 0.99 wounds, which IDs 1 base (therefore 2 wounds for combat resolution)

So what does this mean? It means, at best, a full unit of Wraiths, when they get the charge, will have a 50% chance to take down Mephiston. So I wouldn't call this a reliable method. I'll call it a reliable method when it's sucessful at least 2 out of 3. (although, that's not to say that Wraiths aren't excellent for many other reasons and should be taken anyways...)

Also: Mephiston doesn't have FNP without the help of a Libby. Up until now, I did not know that. I think I may need to punch my friend in the neck the next time I see him.

Without the help of a sanguinary priest.

I'm sorry, total noob, can someone explain what he does that makes him so good?

Squash wrote:I'm sorry, total noob, can someone explain what he does that makes him so good?

He kills things.

azazel the cat wrote:Meph makes 4 attacks...

Your Mathhammer is off, Meph has 5 attacks and 6 when he assaults into combat.

azazel the cat wrote:Right. And why are you bringing this up? I thought it had been clearly established that Eldar was the one army that can handle Meph with the least difficulty.

So, here's my challenge: please find a TAC Necron list that can bring down Meph, and still hope to win at the rest of the game. Keep in mind the ubiquitous 4+ cover save.

It's called an eldritch lance, look it up. The two major good Necron lists I can think of have them in spades. You don't have to kill him outright or anything (which is what you seem to be suggesting) but if they can take a few wounds off before the Wraiths get him then that helps a ton.

Fafnir wrote:Mephiston is a horribly unbalanced character, but mainly based on the fact that some armies just can't do much of anything about him, and other armies walk all over him.

I was playing one game against a friend, he was Blood Angels, I was Orkz. My Orkz cut through his entire army with little issue, crushed him. But then Mephiston comes along, and there's literally nothing that I could have done to stop him.

On the other hand, same friend, same army, but I was running my guard. Mephiston jumps out again, and he dies in a single round of shooting to a single plasma vet squad who had nothing better to shoot at.

It's proof again that Mat Ward is utterly incapable of external balance. I personally dislike Mephiston because there's really no tactics involved in fighting him or fighting against him. Depending on your army, you either get crushed by him, or you crush him, there's no in-between. Remember back when we still had the old Necron Codex, and Mephiston countered the entire codex for free? There was literally nothing in that book that could even touch him.
Orks don't really have anything to throw against him except for Ghazzy, and Mephiston's almost always going to get the charge anyway, meaning you won't get to call your Waaagh! until at least the second round of combat, which means it's kind of a crapshoot.
Tyranids have to rely on poor psychic rolls and a much less mobile Swarm Lord to actually stand a chance of putting Mephy down.

30 Boyz, Nob, power klaw. Job done. 'But how do I catch him he's soooo fast?' Play well. It's not like Mephiston is the only fast assault unit in the game - Wraiths, biker Nobs, Wyches, Beast packs, TWC are all bloody nippy as well and no-one cries on forums about how OP they are and how they can never be caught. Ultimately those units are effective only at facebeating range and if they want to get there then they need to come near your stuff.

e: Why would Meph getting the charge have anything to do with Ghaz calling the Waaagh! You can call his Waaagh at any point, including your opponent's turn.

Nids easily stomp Mephy. He can only hypnotise 1 enemy. Send in large Genesteer mob, supported by a small stealer brood,.both with Broodlord. Combined Aura of Despair with.Hypnotic Broodlord. Sure he may hood them but AoD helps.get the HG through.

Then.watch as he is ripped to shreds.

Why is everyone acting like Mephiston is alone in all this? If you swamp him with meleé units you'll get counter-charged by 11 FC FNP MEQs and ripped to shreds.
If you can shoot at Mephiston or 3/4 assault squads, it's all very well saying "DERP JUST SHOOT MEPHISTON" (since AP 2 weapons that ignore cover are ten a penny, obviously), but that means that you're not shooting at anything else. Feel the pain!

It's almost like part of the skill of the game is target priority and in that situation you have to choose which thing to target. Who'd've thunk it.

6 wounds, toughness 6 (or 7?), 4+ cover save and 2+ armour.
Considering 6 termies with only T4 would come to 300 points I'd say that's a bargain for a damage soaker, wouldn't you?

5 wounds, not 6.

Edit to add: HA! There's a popup window if you don't enter any capital letters in your post that reminds you to use proper spelling, punctuation and grammar. LET THE GRAMMAR INQUISITION COMMENCE!

At 1k or less he can be a bit OP. But anyone taking Mephy @500pts is just TFG.

4 lanceteks and 1 whipcoil wraith. 185 pts, super common to see these units or similar stuff like barges or heavy destroyers, normally in higher numbers, even in 500pt games. Meph gets shot twice for 4 wounds, then either loses his last wound to the wraith or kills it in 1 turn and gets shot again, this time without a cover save.
At 500 he is literally half your opponent's army and you can afford to focus all your junk on him, as the points increase you have more crap to deal with him and plenty left over for other threats. He is a monstrous creature, he is exactly a monstrous creature, he is costed the same and beaten the same. He is not a bad monstrous creature, he gets cover easy or you can hide him completely from sight behind a fast vehicle for a turn or 2 which is cool, but he's no more unstoppable than 2 wraithlords or something for the same cost which are clearly not overpowered.

Corrode wrote:It's almost like part of the skill of the game is target priority and in that situation you have to choose which thing to target. Who'd've thunk it.

Therein lies a great deal of Mephiston's OPness. With everything in the BA codex being either a Fast Vehicle or Jump Infantry, you don't have the opportunity to deal very many threats before it's too late. You're very lucky if you haven't been assaulted by turn 3, which gives you at best, 2 turns of shooting against army wide FnP, and characters like Mephiston. Even if you manage to kill him, which you probably wont, you have the entire rest of the BA army unscathed to deal with in CC....which basically means you lose. He's not just OP because he's a beast in CC. He's OP because allows his entire army to advance unmolested, OR, he gets into CC and wrecks unit after unit after unit after unit. And you can't shoot at him between assaults either but you have dozens of assault troops tying you down in CC.

bmoleski wrote:

Corrode wrote:It's almost like part of the skill of the game is target priority and in that situation you have to choose which thing to target. Who'd've thunk it.

Therein lies a great deal of Mephiston's OPness. With everything in the BA codex being either a Fast Vehicle or Jump Infantry, you don't have the opportunity to deal very many threats before it's too late. You're very lucky if you haven't been assaulted by turn 3, which gives you at best, 2 turns of shooting against army wide FnP, and characters like Mephiston. Even if you manage to kill him, which you probably wont, you have the entire rest of the BA army unscathed to deal with in CC....which basically means you lose. He's not just OP because he's a beast in CC. He's OP because allows his entire army to advance unmolested, OR, he gets into CC and wrecks unit after unit after unit after unit. And you can't shoot at him between assaults either but you have dozens of assault troops tying you down in CC.

You are saying that he is OP in small games, in small games there will be very little else in the BA army for you to have to deal with. 2 Assualt Squads in Rhinos at 500? 2 More in 1000? He can be dealt with easily with the correct strength an AP weapons at range from just a few squads, he may trip up on his own in Terrain or fail his Psychic test. How many armies can take anti-psyker powers or something that lowers Ld? He is easy to tarpit in combat and even if he isn't dead from shooting then any decent army would have wounded him a couple of times leaving him at half strength.

Deadshot wrote:Nids easily stomp Mephy. He can only hypnotise 1 enemy. Send in large Genesteer mob, supported by a small stealer brood,.both with Broodlord. Combined Aura of Despair with.Hypnotic Broodlord. Sure he may hood them but AoD helps.get the HG through.

Then.watch as he is ripped to shreds.

He can only Hypnotize an IC. Things like Broodlords, and Hive Tyrants are immune to that.

lso: Mephiston doesn't have FNP without the help of a Libby. Up until now, I did not know that. I think I may need to punch my friend in the neck the next time I see him.

That's pretty huge. If your friend didn't have any Sanguinary priests nearby, and saying that, he gave a huge buff to Mephiston.

Perhaps he'll be easier to take down next time for you, eh?

DeathReaper wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:Meph makes 4 attacks...

Your Mathhammer is off, Meph has 5 attacks and 6 when he assaults into combat.

Right. I forgot that he gets an additional attack because he's got a second weapon. my bad.

Corrode wrote:It's called an eldritch lance, look it up. The two major good Necron lists I can think of have them in spades. You don't have to kill him outright or anything (which is what you seem to be suggesting) but if they can take a few wounds off before the Wraiths get him then that helps a ton.

Yeah, I run with 6 of 'em, smartass. And once the majority of the anti-tank has been used on Mephiston, I get to deal with fast tanks at my doorstep the next turn because my lanceteks were too busy dealing with 40k's most unbalanced character. I think I already stated that Mephiston can be brought down by firing everything at him, but that's not really a 'good' solution.

Actinium wrote:4 lanceteks and 1 whipcoil wraith. 185 pts, super common to see these units or similar stuff like barges or heavy destroyers, normally in higher numbers, even in 500pt games. Meph gets shot twice for 4 wounds, then either loses his last wound to the wraith or kills it in 1 turn and gets shot again, this time without a cover save.

I see 4 distinct problems with this idea:
1. The FOC chart. Nobody will use a unit of a single Wraith, as the FA slot it takes up is the most valuable real estate in the Necron codex.
2. Your understanding of the Necron codex. Nobody has ever taken a solitary Wraith for reasons already stated, and at 500 points the Necrons cannot afford large numbers of Heavy Destroyers
3. Your math-

4 Lanceteks shoot, hitting 2.67 times
Str 8 against T6 means 2.23 wounds with no armour save
Assuming a 4+ cover save gets you 1.13 wounds. Meph has 5 total wounds.

4. Your tactics. The Wraith will get killed in your own assault, and then on Meph's turn he is free to ruin your day.

I was just listing the least possible units, i said you generally see more than just 4 lances and 1 wraith and that wraiths and lances are common, the more of either you have the easier it gets on top of the myraid of other things that can work like barge sweeps or mind shackles or whatever.

Aye. I've found the best strategy is to send a unit of deathmarks after him, and hope they get swept, then finish Meph off with either Wraiths or Heavy Destroyers. It tends to work pretty well, but it's an enourmous amount of resources that must be dedicated to the removal of a single unit. In fact, it's because of Mephiston that I'm W-L-D 1-1-9 against a mech'd up BA list w/ Meph. The way things work is that the BA are simply a bad matchup for the Necrons; maybe even their worst matchup. Mephiston is just the avatar of that bad matchup.

So I guess it's maybe not fair to say that Mephiston is overpowered. Perhaps a better choice of words is that Mephiston is extremely imbalanced in 40k. Some armies can swat him like a fly or even come close to ignoring him, whereas some armies are powerless to deal with him. That being said, I would still consider taking Mephiston in a 'friendly' game under 2k points to be a dick move.

Overlord/lord with mind shackle scarabs and a warscythe will do wonders against him. You're lucky if you have both the lord and overlord in a group together equipped the same... he's bound to fail one of those mindshackle scarabs and thats a lot of warscythe pain coming his way.

azazel the cat wrote:Aye. I've found the best strategy is to send a unit of deathmarks after him, and hope they get swept, then finish Meph off with either Wraiths or Heavy Destroyers. It tends to work pretty well, but it's an enourmous amount of resources that must be dedicated to the removal of a single unit. In fact, it's because of Mephiston that I'm W-L-D 1-1-9 against a mech'd up BA list w/ Meph. The way things work is that the BA are simply a bad matchup for the Necrons; maybe even their worst matchup. Mephiston is just the avatar of that bad matchup.

So I guess it's maybe not fair to say that Mephiston is overpowered. Perhaps a better choice of words is that Mephiston is extremely imbalanced in 40k. Some armies can swat him like a fly or even come close to ignoring him, whereas some armies are powerless to deal with him. That being said, I would still consider taking Mephiston in a 'friendly' game under 2k points to be a dick move.

What's the list you are using? I really don't have trouble with BA all that much, so I'm a bit surprised to hear you are.

I think Nids are probably our worst match-up, surprisingly enough.

The only time I've faced Mephiston, my opponent made the rather stupid mistake of charging him alone in a unit of 10 Lychguard armed with Warscythes. He did last a whole round, I'll give him that.
Apart from that, when I first saw his statline and heard his abilities, I was like "what am I going to do with this guy?"