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Should we try (objectively) ranking the lists?
(or at least the top ones)

1. MTO - too many threats for your opponent to deal with at once.
2. Wraith Wing - three units of maxed out Wraiths, some times lead by Destroyer Lord(s).
3. Scarab Farm - tons of Scarabs, backed up by 9 Spyders = sh*t tons of Scarabs.
4. Tremor 'Crons - shenanigans involving Harbingers of Transmogrification and Writhing Worldscape C'tans.
5. AV13 Wall - lots 'o high armor value gunboats & barges & stalkers.
6. Scythe Spam - a bajillion Scythes to overwhelm the battlefield with Tesla Destructors.
7. Shooty 'Crons (aka. "Bullet" 'Crons) - focus on shooting, sometimes augmented by Targeting Relay shenanigans.
8. Warrior Phalanx - Old'Cron tactics with New'Cron toys (big blocks of Warriors, lead by ResOrb carriers, supported by Ghost Arks).
9. ????? - we'll wait to see what 6th ed. brings before we fill this gap (potentially Destroyers or Flayed Ones?)
10. ROYAL COURT DISCO INFERNO - full Royal Court (5 Lords + one of each Harbinger, all fully kitted out) operating as one deathstar.

Input welcome.

might aswell, that would get this thread back on track.

Well I would like to make a case for my take on MTO. It's slightly different from jy2's, though I can't say for certain which is more effective. I would also like to say that it is IMO a tier 1 build capable of dealing with the many different competitive builds out there.

So onto the list I use (though of course variations are easily made):

CC Barge Overlord w/ Scythe and MSS
CC Barge Overlord w/ Scythe and MSS

2x Pulseteks

3x 5 warriors

5x Wraiths. 3x Whip coils, 1x Particle Caster
5x Wraiths. 3x Whip coils, 1x Particle Caster
5x Wraiths. 3x Whip coils, 1x Particle Caster

Doom Scythe
Doom Scythe
Doom Scythe

Essentially it takes the MSU format with very few unnecessary upgrades. Wraiths are the only units with a great amount of upgrades and it is simply to increase versatility and to potentially increase their lifespan. The reason for the lack of upgrades is simple: More threats.

I would like to take an example of a fully kitted out Overlord on a CC Barge. With the usual Warscythe, MSS, Weave, Phase Shifter and possible Res-orb taken into account you have an HQ worth 285pts. Now lose ALL those upgrades except the necessary Warscythe and he comes in at 180. A saving of 105 per HQ buys you a new unit of 5 Wraiths with essential upgrades. Of course it is hard to quantify which is the bigger threat, but I would rather have the Wraiths since it's an entirely new unit.

It's a very aggressive build and can quite effectively go for the table. My games so far have been not far off those results (the 1st was VS Drop-pod heavy Imperial fists led by Lysander and Vulkan, the 2nd VS 30 fleeting TH/SS terminators led by Shrike). Both games were victories for the 'Crons.

Disclaimer: This is not my first MTO build, this is simply what I have gravitated towards after much playtesting.

The weaknesses of each individual unit also tend to overlap with another units strength. Thus your opponent may find themselves with no clear sense of target priority. The speed of the list doesn't leave much room for error or bad luck on your opponents part. Turn 2 generally sees a lot of carnage and if you have good target priority and plan your movement phases out carefully yourself you can ensure your opponent is on the back foot for the rest of the game.

Variaitons may include a small scarab farm, Destruction teks scattered among Troops, a smattering of Night Scythes or something else entirely. Either way, the essence of the list won't be lost as long as you keep multiple fast threats in the list. The supporting units can be mixed and matched as required until you are satisfied.

Kind of a small rant but figured I would put my own thoughts and experiences out there. Hope others find it useful.

After playing my first couple of proper games with Crons ive been running 20 warriors, 10 immortals, 2 doomscythes and a lord at 1k.
Gonna be running 2 lords and a horde of immortals.. those things are immense, relentless and RP of 4+, yes please

skoffs wrote:Should we try (objectively) ranking the lists?
(or at least the top ones)

1. MTO - too many threats for your opponent to deal with at once.
2. Wraith Wing - three units of maxed out Wraiths, some times lead by Destroyer Lord(s).
3. Scarab Farm - tons of Scarabs, backed up by 9 Spyders = sh*t tons of Scarabs.
4. Tremor 'Crons - shenanigans involving Harbingers of Transmogrification and Writhing Worldscape C'tans.
5. AV13 Wall - lots 'o high armor value gunboats & barges & stalkers.
6. Scythe Spam - a bajillion Scythes to overwhelm the battlefield with Tesla Destructors.
7. Shooty 'Crons (aka. "Bullet" 'Crons) - focus on shooting, sometimes augmented by Targeting Relay shenanigans.
8. Warrior Phalanx - Old'Cron tactics with New'Cron toys (big blocks of Warriors, lead by ResOrb carriers, supported by Ghost Arks).
9. ????? - we'll wait to see what 6th ed. brings before we fill this gap (potentially Destroyers or Flayed Ones?)
10. ROYAL COURT DISCO INFERNO - full Royal Court (5 Lords + one of each Harbinger, all fully kitted out) operating as one deathstar.

Input welcome.

Maybe poll would help so people could vote for their preferred build?

Honestly, its not the list that wins, its the player. Yes, some stuff doesn't work. Yes, all armies have bad matchups. But if you've noticed any top tier player normally has a slightly "off" list because people either rarely play those units, or they find the unit works for them.

So test stuff out imo. You can netlist all you want but this isn't magic; a list will only go so far. Learn2play.

Lukus83 wrote:Well I would like to make a case for my take on MTO. It's slightly different from jy2's, though I can't say for certain which is more effective. I would also like to say that it is IMO a tier 1 build capable of dealing with the many different competitive builds out there.
<snip, list>

Lukus, it's pretty clear what you're doing here, you're moving all fast units up on turn one, forcing the opponent to choose between targets. Seems like a pretty obvious target prioritization, though - the CCB's are flat-out and AV13, the Wraiths are hella hard to kill with less than S8, but the DoomScythes will get popped by s5-s7 pretty easily (s5 b/c they're certainly approaching flat-out too, so an immobilized result kills.) Drawing fire with those three scythes *might* win the battle for you - but against a list with a solid CC backbone that can weather the Wraith onslaught it's going to get ugly, isn't it?

Of course, the usual suspect for this sort of thing is the typical GK Purifier/Psyfleman/Henchman list with a Psychotroke grenade equipped character. Because they can "catch" the wraiths they can afford to target the scythes, then the CCB's.

I'd think a set of Annihilation Barges would be more resilient. But that's just me.

Where can I find a good list for Warriors Phalanx ? I so want them to be good, but they seem to hate me.

I couldn't support any list whose only troops are 3x5 Warriors with no transports. They are too easy to kill in such small numbers and force a draw.

Regarding the Scythes, one tactic I tried in a recent game that worked phenomenally was to give one of my Scythes Stealth with Zandrekh, and supersonic it forward, then use that to cover the approach of the other ones. Assuming you can force the enemy to shoot at the 3++ covered one over the ones behind it with range shenanigans or night fighting, you're pretty much guaranteed to get up close and personal with the otherwise fragile flyers.

3x5 warriors each with two crypteks is not that easy to kill, especially with a ghost ark able to make any crypteks that pop up go back to the full strength unit. Throw em in cover on your table edge and I have found that with enough big threats people tend to leave my warriors alone

Well my MTO list hasn't faced GK's yet, though that is one of my priorities. Trying to pit them against some of the local expats better lists. Mech DE, GK Purifiers and Blood Angels AV13 spam are all high on the agenda.

If I'm honest the TH/SS game had me worried, but I was surprised at how quickly Tesla dealt with the terminators. With the huge mobility in the list it was easy to just bring everything to bear on the large infiltrating Deathstar while avoiding the other terminators that were further back. After that it very quickly became a one-sided shoot out with Wraiths finishing off surviviors.

Regarding just throwing the all the fast units up hard first turn, it doesn't always go the way you want it and I feel there is definitely an element of finesse as to how your movement phase is planned. Tesla and Death Ray make your opponent spread out, Night Fight means retaliation (for a lot of armies) is that much harder. When completing your moves I would say you aren't looking so much at your next turn as you are your opponents. What are they going to be able to move into reprisal range? How much can you mitigate? What can be sacrificed without losing out on the alpha?

I would like some input on what others would consider hard counters to this list and I will see if I can get a game in against them. I'm all about playtesting since at the end of the day the only way to how good is list is is to use it.

Ah, my favorite subject. I've been away too long.

I figured that by now the dust would have settled on the necron codex and the super-build would have emerged; but thankfully that doesn't look like its going to happen before 6e, And 6e looks like its shaping up to be good for necrons (if those bow rumors are at all accurate).

I'm stubborn, I've been running my same Anrakyr list since before the FAQ stripped Anrakyr of his mounted mind control, and He is still kicking ass on two coasts.

Although; I've had to take a break now that there are actual scythe models and my proxies don't fly anymore. Hopefully I'll have it together in time for games day...

The MTO list that JY2 dropped when the rest of us were on page xx of wraith-based builds is a killer alpha strike that can force an early concession if your opponent doesnt play well on his back.

I've seen some amazing tremor lists crush small elite armies even though its tuned for hordes, ive seen scarab farm eat mephitic nightmares, feel no pain or not; I've seen scythespam out alpha dark eldar 2 games in a row... Necrons are top tier when theyre in the hands of good players, but all the listing in the world won't help if you're not playing your own game.

Bruce lee advocated finding the right martial art to suit your body style; sumo don't practice crane style for a reason. If you're a defensive player then you're better off with a good phalanx list or an av13 wall over an immotekh flayed wall or a tripolith list 9 times out of 10.

If I had to come down on one Side of the fence, it would be to endorse a list that fields wraiths, scarabs, scythes, and surf lords; that plays an aggressive game, and attacks from the flanks, but that's just what works for me.

Welcome back Junk. Have missed your input in these 'cron threads.

Truer words were never spoken about playstyles. I am an aggressive player and though I probably will build an Ark list once my MTO variant is up and running, it won't be my main list as I prefer playing aggressively. I think that all the posted lists are quite competitive in the right hands. Deciding which one works for you and tweaking it appropriately is really the only choice.

I know I personally like to build control/reactive builds. What I mean by that is limiting your opponents options in things like movement or shooting. Well not removing the options just making them a very bad idea. I also like the ability to nearly redeploy a good chunk of my army base so things like veil of darkness, not for attacking but for claiming and contesting are both really helpful.

I am currently practicing going second and coming on from reserve against certain opponents. Odd in a heavy shooting list but it makes sure that my stuff is in range, and the ability to control what gets engaged and what doesn't in complete response to my opponent is really tactically liberating. Necrons can get away with this because we have mostly assault weapons.

Lukus83 wrote:Well I would like to make a case for my take on MTO. It's slightly different from jy2's, though I can't say for certain which is more effective. I would also like to say that it is IMO a tier 1 build capable of dealing with the many different competitive builds out there.

So onto the list I use (though of course variations are easily made):

CC Barge Overlord w/ Scythe and MSS
CC Barge Overlord w/ Scythe and MSS

2x Pulseteks

3x 5 warriors

5x Wraiths. 3x Whip coils, 1x Particle Caster
5x Wraiths. 3x Whip coils, 1x Particle Caster
5x Wraiths. 3x Whip coils, 1x Particle Caster

Doom Scythe
Doom Scythe
Doom Scythe

Essentially it takes the MSU format with very few unnecessary upgrades. Wraiths are the only units with a great amount of upgrades and it is simply to increase versatility and to potentially increase their lifespan. The reason for the lack of upgrades is simple: More threats.

I would like to take an example of a fully kitted out Overlord on a CC Barge. With the usual Warscythe, MSS, Weave, Phase Shifter and possible Res-orb taken into account you have an HQ worth 285pts. Now lose ALL those upgrades except the necessary Warscythe and he comes in at 180. A saving of 105 per HQ buys you a new unit of 5 Wraiths with essential upgrades. Of course it is hard to quantify which is the bigger threat, but I would rather have the Wraiths since it's an entirely new unit.

It's a very aggressive build and can quite effectively go for the table. My games so far have been not far off those results (the 1st was VS Drop-pod heavy Imperial fists led by Lysander and Vulkan, the 2nd VS 30 fleeting TH/SS terminators led by Shrike). Both games were victories for the 'Crons.

Disclaimer: This is not my first MTO build, this is simply what I have gravitated towards after much playtesting.

The weaknesses of each individual unit also tend to overlap with another units strength. Thus your opponent may find themselves with no clear sense of target priority. The speed of the list doesn't leave much room for error or bad luck on your opponents part. Turn 2 generally sees a lot of carnage and if you have good target priority and plan your movement phases out carefully yourself you can ensure your opponent is on the back foot for the rest of the game.

Variaitons may include a small scarab farm, Destruction teks scattered among Troops, a smattering of Night Scythes or something else entirely. Either way, the essence of the list won't be lost as long as you keep multiple fast threats in the list. The supporting units can be mixed and matched as required until you are satisfied.

Kind of a small rant but figured I would put my own thoughts and experiences out there. Hope others find it useful.

I know you wanted some hard counters, so try these:
- DoA angels (wraiths seem to hate fnp marines)
- Daemons (you lack volume of fire to deal with the big threats)
- Nids (see above, probably a genestealer list or something packing lots of hiveguard)
- GK purifier spam
- Try this vs a competant Mech ig player, someone who won't castle up vs 3 doomscthes lol
- Ork BW spam may be a good matchup, depends if he can make his KFF saves

Those are a few I can think of

Zid wrote:Honestly, its not the list that wins, its the player.<snip> Learn2play.

Man, 40K is a simple game, though. It's a move-then-shoot mechanic without the ability to react out-of-phase to assaults, meaning it'll inherently favor the offensive compared to "normal" land-based wargames. Rudimentary morale and suppression mechanics, sparse indirect/offboard firing, typically sparse terrain, limited facing/formation factors. The base tactics devolve to "use your unit/weapon type matchups and range sweet spot and try to avoid his". Mastering the base rule set isn't hard. (Though it's harder than it should be, because of the "distributed" and sometimes ambiguous writing style.)

Most of the complexity comes from the enormous range of special case rules in each codex that modify each unit's abilities. Ours and theirs. After you get that down, the intra-unit synergy is again, very simple compared to a lot of other games.

I wanna make an aggressive, hybrid (of shooting and CC) list with my necrons.

What I have at the moment:

Roughly 15 Warriors

A Lord/Overlord

Obyron

What points level are you looking at?

I like the potential of gauss weapons.

Overlord
Overlord
2 Cryptek with Solar Pulse

5 x 10 Gauss armed immortals
3 x 3 Heavy Destoyers
3 x Annhilation barges

It is going to heavily depend on target priority the first 2 turns, But the solar pulse should be enough to give you the advantage then you just try to maintain 12" to 24" separation from your opponent. Gauss should do the trick against most armies.

Any points left over can be used for mindshackle scarabs or lance armed crypteks.

I'm looking for an army list in the points range of 1750-2000.

EDIT: I wouldn't mind if it wasn't a very conventional list, or a fun list. (after all, my current army is an all khorne berserker one)

If you want a semi shooty fun list, have a look at the FunCron list I posted.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/449756.page

The updated version (which has more anni barges and scarabs cos I got some more models) is below.


New FunCrons 2000 Army list
**HQ**
Zahndrek CCB, Obyron (430)
Overlord (Scythe,MSS,SW,PS) (175)
Royal Court (A) (160)
Cryptek (despair, Abyssal Staff, NS,VoD)
Cryptek (2XDestruction, Lance, Pulse)

Royal Court (B) (150)
Cryptek (despair, Abyssal Staff,VoD)
Cryptek (X2 Destruction, Lance, 1 pulse,)

**Elites**
5xDeathmark 95 (Cryptek, Despair, VOD here)
5xDeathmark 95 (Cryptek, Despair, VOD here)
5x Lychguard (HS/DS) (225) (Overlord, Obyron here)

**Troops**
5xWarrior (65) (DestructTek, pulse,)
5XWarrior (65) ( DestrucTek Pulse)
5xWarrior, Ghost Ark (180) (2xDestructek)

**Fast Attack**
6XScarab(90)
6xScarab(90)
**Heavy Support**
Annihilation barge (90)
Annihilation barge (90)

The CCB is for the Overlord, not Zahndrek.