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pretre wrote:Take a break and come back later?
Play different people?
Try out different types of lists?

I would say this, why not play a different game or take a break and then come back when 6th edition is released?

I was in a similar kind of situation. For me, so much of the fun of 40k was having a couple of well painted armies on good terrain, and even some campaign or wider narrative going on. The problem being that at my club the 40k players probably care least of all about painting or even constructing their minis. Unpainted GK, and SM made up of about 7 different chapters because the owner got bored after painting 2 marines.

This is compounded by other factors - I don't want to besmirch 40k (I know this is a personal thing, and so many people enjoy it) but for me TBH there isn't enough in the game mechanics and tactical opportunity to carry the game by itself, without those other things. Of course this could be from just playing for so long, and because really the changes since 3rd edition have only been minor. It is still the game guys, jumping out of rhinos, the same captain power-fisting people and doing it in exactly the same way. I'm sure for people who haven't seen 250,000 tactical marines disembark from a rhino, things might be different!

But, perhaps the feeling is similar of having a bored feeling when playing. I can only say the oft-repeated phrase, "a change is as good as a rest". Don't give up wargaming, pick up one of the multitude of cheap skirmish or board games on offer and mess around with them for a few months. Chances are it will be like a splash of cold water to the face.

Fix't

But anyway - to the point. What kind of firepower does this list produce?

At various range intervals:


e.g. this list may have more long range firepower against low AV, and more targets, but it does not have the same punching power against AV14. It disappoint somewhat that at 24" you'd be pulling 1/4 of the number of destroyed results against open-topped AV14 and only half the number of destroyed results at 6" (melta range). And roughly half the number of shaken/stunned results at 6" against open-topped AV14.

If you confronted me with that SW list, I'd consider myself blessed if I was using a BW bash list, whereas against my GK list, it looks like a death sentence. Keep in mind that each of those GKs is much more prepared for CC against hordes and MEQs/TEQs, as well as multi-wound and Nob units.

Yawn indeed. What a gas that you gave me this. Don't you think that was somewhat pretentious?

TedNugent wrote:

pretre wrote:

TedNugent wrote:The amount of firepower GKs can put out in a single turn is pretty staggering.

And generally, the amount of firepower an equal number of points in other armies can put out is more. (Dreads are the outlier.)

Challenge accepted.

You asked for raw firepower and I gave it. When it comes down to it, my list has more and better firepower. Hypotheticals are great, but we can spew those all day saying which list is better. You wanted firepower, you got it.

pretre wrote:

TedNugent wrote:

pretre wrote:

TedNugent wrote:The amount of firepower GKs can put out in a single turn is pretty staggering.

And generally, the amount of firepower an equal number of points in other armies can put out is more. (Dreads are the outlier.)

Challenge accepted.

You asked for raw firepower and I gave it. When it comes down to it, my list has more and better firepower. Hypotheticals are great, but we can spew those all day saying which list is better. You wanted firepower, you got it.

First of all, to say that your list gives more raw firepower is ridiculous considering that I already showed you the math for that. You only have more firepower at ranges greater than 24" with that list. At less than 24" your list falls behind against all target types.

And to say that it is "better" firepower is also meaningless without reference to something. I just demonstrated that your list pulls literally 1/4 of the number of destroyed results against AV14 at <24". It pulls 2/3 the number destroyed results against AV11 at <24". That, and you're only matching the number of MEQ kills sub-24". I will also grant you that you managed greater target numbers, which means greater efficiency, but that is not something you can quantifiably say will exceed the damage result gap from sheer damage output without some seriously robust math and a suitable test case.

Your list has better firepower at ranges >48" and that is all that it has.

TedNugent wrote:First of all, to say that your list gives more raw firepower is ridiculous considering that I already showed you the math for that. You only have more firepower at ranges greater than 24" with that list. At less than 24" your list falls behind against all target types.

No, it isn't. You are giving a corner case to support your list having more firepower. The <24" range. You then said 'Yeah, I put out more results at <24'. Great, how are you going to get there? Not every list is going to come to you.

Your list has better firepower at ranges >48" and that is all that it has.

You mean >24", not >48".

Or the fact that an 85 point Razorback with Psybolt and an Assault Cannon actually puts out more destroyed results against AV11 than 150 points of Hydra Flaks.

At 24".

You seem to think that range is not an issue in a list. It just so happens that those 24" platforms have to approach the Hydra to do anything. And the hydra excels at stopping them from doing that.

In what bizarro land are there these assault cannon razorbacks even getting close to hydras?

EDIT: Nevermind. BA Assault Squads get cheap razorbacks. I did not know that.

Arschbombe wrote:It's the bugs. I am hoping that 6th edition will bring changes to make them more fun. As it is most games are just a beatdown from some newer, shinier codex that nids really can't compete with. I wasn't having fun with my nids either so I shelved them and worked on my eldar. Now I play footdar and I enjoy them quite a bit more. Which is kinda of sad since the Nid codex was actually updated 2 years ago and the eldar book is 6 years old.

I won a majority of my tournament games last year running all-reserve Tyranids. *shrug* GKs are a fairly horrendous matchup for them, and Tyranids are a bit matchup-reliant in general. But they did okay against regular mech SM and IG, and I had a lot of fun playing them.

To the OP, I think that now may not be the time to make big decisions about the game. I have the distinct feeling that 6th edition is going to be quite a shakeup...might be worth sticking around for a few months and seeing what changes it brings.

Thanks to everyone who responded. I feel a lot less frustrated.

As for the raw firepower argument; why don't we put this into firm numbers? ws x weapon str x range x shots fired for the 'raw' firepower of the unit. This gives 20 devil gaunts a raw score of 15*18*3 = 810 for 200 points.

Mordiggian wrote:ws x weapon str x range x shots fired for the 'raw' firepower of the unit. This gives 20 devil gaunts a raw score of 15*18*3 = 810 for 200 points.

I think you mean bs, not ws, and that doesn't actually take into account AP values. Also, I assume that you want to multiply by the number of models in the unit, which puts your value somewhat slim. Note that this gives a 20 guardsman 3*3*24*1*20 = 933,120 for 100 points.

Also, consider 10 space marines: 4*4*24*1*10 = 3,840 for 160 points (IIRC). By this measurement 10 space marines are greatly outmatched by 20 guardsmen with lasguns only. Maybe if you divided the points by ABS(AP-7), with AP- assumed to count as AP=7 for this purpose, it would make it more reasonable.

I still don't think it's a good measure, even then.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mordiggian wrote:ws x weapon str x range x shots fired for the 'raw' firepower of the unit. This gives 20 devil gaunts a raw score of 15*18*3 = 810 for 200 points.

I think you mean bs, not ws, and that doesn't actually take into account AP values. Also, I assume that you want to multiply by the number of models in the unit, which puts your value somewhat slim. Note that this gives a 20 guardsman 3*3*24*1*20 = 933,120 for 100 points.

Also, consider 10 space marines: 4*4*24*1*10 = 3,840 for 160 points (IIRC). By this measurement 10 space marines are greatly outmatched by 20 guardsmen with lasguns only. Maybe if you divided the points by ABS(AP-7), with AP- assumed to count as AP=7 for this purpose, it would make it more reasonable.

I still don't think it's a good measure, even then.

I played a tournament with orks, but decided not to continue since I am not a tournament guy. I prefer normal games and campaigns. I dont like what GW is doing with overpowering new codecs.

Capt. Camping wrote:I dont like what GW is doing with overpowering new codecs.

I have heard this complaint since I started 40k in the late 90's. It is no different now than it was then. Some books end up more powerful than others, some less. Big surprise. Also, prices will rise and the sun sets tonight.

Never lose hope 6th edition is right around the corner, hold on until deliverance!

Mordiggian wrote:I'll freely admit that I'm a b-level player playng a b-list force: Tyranids. I lose about 75% of the time, and it doesn't bother me. 40K has been fun. I get to field awesome monsters, charge with massive swarms, and eat characters.

Lately, however, the fun factor has been on the decline. I faced Grey Knights for the first time yesterday, and I fail to see the fun of getting a quarter of my force annihilated turn one. Not, I might add the third of my force that is useless because it cannot possibly damage a rhino. I conceded at the end of turn one.

My other game was against Dark Elder. Tabled on turn 4, but at I felt I had some shred of hope of hurting his force. Against the Grey Knights, I didn't feel I had any. Both brought entirely mech forces, and Tyranids have very few ways to deal with them.

Yes, I will have to take more mech-attacking lists, but it feels like with the current metagame of mech mech and more mech, my Tyranids have less and less relevance on the field, and I am forced into making a pretty specific list; Hive Guard, tyrannofex and Genestealers.

The game balance has really gone off. I'm having less fun.

Sorry, man. My brother bought a bunch of Tyranids. He hates them as well. They are easily the worst codex out right now. Now, 6th might change that. If not, I would sell all of them off to get some of your money back and play a different army. Tyranids are really bad. You can't even remotely attempt to put up a fight against other armies. And it isn't just GK and DE, either...

I am finding this with Warmachine as well...I can't get a win to save myself. It's taking away the fun completely when I lose in turn two...like wtf....
Or by turn 3 there isn't enough left to really do anything serious back.

theQuanz wrote:I am finding this with Warmachine as well...I can't get a win to save myself. It's taking away the fun completely when I lose in turn two...like wtf....
Or by turn 3 there isn't enough left to really do anything serious back.

sounds like you need to up your game.

let me step in and help, if i can? what caster are you using, and what units/jacks are you taking with them? what are your opponents doing? What issues are you generally finding?

do you play scenarios?

theQuanz wrote:I am finding this with Warmachine as well...I can't get a win to save myself. It's taking away the fun completely when I lose in turn two...like wtf....
Or by turn 3 there isn't enough left to really do anything serious back.

Could it be your group may need to play more points per game.

Well nids are dew a new codex.. again i believe lol, but even still competition isnt everything, my games are about 50 - 50 win to losses i dont complain i learn i take a note pad and learn their tactics, i also doodle and scribble down a play by play so i can write up my game as if it were a novel but still, have fun man and remeber big guns outweight quantity..

I'm having the same issue with my Orks. I'm having a hard time competing with these new codex. At least Nids got a fifth edition codex. I'm going to play Fantasy a bit, then see what 6th Edition offers.

A lot of people have a tendency to blame codex before blaming themselves. I'll tell you what...

When I started playing 40k in 3rd, I got my ass handed to me on a regular basis. I didn't complain about my codex. I learned how to play better and compete against the players that took me down.

When I returned to playing in 5th, guess what? I lost a lot of games. Guess what I did? I got better.

Am I an awesome player nowadays? Nope, but I learned from my mistakes and try not to make the same ones. And after all this time, my win/loss is roughly the same regardless of army. (Although SOB are currently leading the pack on that front.)

I'm not going to say that the Nid codex doesn't have issues, but not every loss is OMG codex creep.

As a Nid player, I know the feeling. Either you get an uphill battle - which is fine - that becomes a reasonably fun and balanced game, or you see your opponent's army, and you think "Oh... no.". From that point on, no matter your successes, your Nids will meet a roadblock and it will smash them to pieces. MCs are no longer on par with vehicles, and swarms aren't swarmy enough. The best thing we have going for us is Genestealers.

Anyway, doing fun things. Once, just for silliness, I created a list entirely of Lictors. Special Lictors, though, with homebrew rules to make them what they should be. Deathleaper was HQ, and normal-cost Lictors were kept in the Elite slot and able to assault after deep striking. Normal lictors were given a price drop, and made into Troops. It was a silly fun game. Also, I never play KP or objectives. We always fight to the last model and disregard the turn numbers - it can take ages, but it's a better game than the given objectives give. It's also hilarious to watch Lychguard chase the last Hormagaunt around the board for two turns before two of them succumb to dangerous terrain and one succeeds in killing said 'gaunt.

Not jumping on the "OMG GK so cheese" bandwagon, here, but people are neglecting one tiny detail. All that firepower is coming from either Terminators (who can basically be the lovechild of an Assault and Tactical Termie) or amazing sparkle Marines, who can shoot fire from their faces and absolutely decimate everything in close combat. Factor in all the anti-everything randomness, and what do you have?

You have Captain Diomedes.

Box em up, and put them in the attic for a bit. Things always change in Warhammer/40k

I havn't played chaos since the latest codex came out. I couldn't stand the direction the developers went. Now with a new rulebook on the horizon, and rumors of a chaos book coming, Ive dug the troops out and have been painting and touching up units, getting ready for some Kill frenzy!.

I stepped away from the whole 40k scene. The army that most fit my style of play was BA, but I couldn't bring myself to fight for that bag of bones on the golden commode.

I've been playing Blood Bowl and Warhammer Fantasy (Chaos of course! heh).

Change it up, ask that people bring fluff lists, play battle missions, do a campaign, etc. Sounds to me like you just don't want to play a competitive match: That's perfectly fine! I'm sure if you try some different aspects of the game you'll have loads of fun.

Phydox wrote:Box em up, and put them in the attic for a bit. Things always change in Warhammer/40k

I havn't played chaos since the latest codex came out. I couldn't stand the direction the developers went. Now with a new rulebook on the horizon, and rumors of a chaos book coming, Ive dug the troops out and have been painting and touching up units, getting ready for some Kill frenzy!.

I stepped away from the whole 40k scene. The army that most fit my style of play was BA, but I couldn't bring myself to fight for that bag of bones on the golden commode.

I've been playing Blood Bowl and Warhammer Fantasy (Chaos of course! heh).

Yes Phydox, I think 40k is a game it force you to put your minis in the attic for a few years because GW takes a lot of time to update the codexes.

GK are an issue, but not one thats impossible to get past.
Are they strong? of course they are, but can be beaten.
If you want real issues then try using daemons against them when they are hell bent on warpquake.
That does enough damage before a single stormbolter gets fired.

DE was a bad match, it really was.
Considering 90% of the main weapons are poisoned, nids dont fare too well against them.

Its just a case of some bad games.
Tinker with your list a bit and have another go.
Just see it as more of a challenge.

Granted nids are an underdog at the moment, but its still not impossible to work them.

I agree with the above; Nids are hard work, but they're not terrible. Just not as competitive as we could be, especially not compared to the good ol' days of Without Number and Swiss Army Carnifex.

As long as we have Genestealers, everything will be okay...

6th Ed Tyranids by Matt Ward wrote:... and the Genestealers were actually people with personalities and emotions, and they are mercenaries hired by the Tyranids, which they go along with in order to meet their ultimate goal; to collect samples of the perfect DNA, so they too could become like the Ultramarines...

I agree. GK has really sucked the fun factor for me. People can say what they want, but if you want to be competitive you have to build to be able to beat GK which takes a lot of elements out of the game for me.

bdix wrote:I agree. GK has really sucked the fun factor for me. People can say what they want, but if you want to be competitive you have to build to be able to beat GK which takes a lot of elements out of the game for me.

Step 1 Pass psychic test

Step 2 Inflict wound in Carnifex with Nemesis sword

Step 3 Watch a 5 wound Carnifex die!

I was reading that Grey Knights are opening Killa Kans like soda for recycling program? Is that true?

Mordiggian wrote:I'll freely admit that I'm a b-level player playng a b-list force: Tyranids. I lose about 75% of the time, and it doesn't bother me. 40K has been fun. I get to field awesome monsters, charge with massive swarms, and eat characters.

Lately, however, the fun factor has been on the decline. I faced Grey Knights for the first time yesterday, and I fail to see the fun of getting a quarter of my force annihilated turn one. Not, I might add the third of my force that is useless because it cannot possibly damage a rhino. I conceded at the end of turn one.

My other game was against Dark Elder. Tabled on turn 4, but at I felt I had some shred of hope of hurting his force. Against the Grey Knights, I didn't feel I had any. Both brought entirely mech forces, and Tyranids have very few ways to deal with them.

Yes, I will have to take more mech-attacking lists, but it feels like with the current metagame of mech mech and more mech, my Tyranids have less and less relevance on the field, and I am forced into making a pretty specific list; Hive Guard, tyrannofex and Genestealers.

The game balance has really gone off. I'm having less fun.

Blood Angel player here. Mech Razor Spam is supposed to be our strongest list but I like to play with a Jumpers list. It's still pretty good but I feel that the game is a lot more based on shooting rather than assaulting. If you take an all out assault list you get told to take more shooty stuff when you're beaten.

Capt. Camping wrote:

bdix wrote:I agree. GK has really sucked the fun factor for me. People can say what they want, but if you want to be competitive you have to build to be able to beat GK which takes a lot of elements out of the game for me.

Step 1 Pass psychic test

On 3d6, and that means that you (usually) can't hammerhand.

Step 2 Inflict wound in Carnifex with Nemesis sword

1/2 chance to hit *1/6 chance to wound = odds of a IG lascannon penetrating a landraider. Granted, you pile enough attacks on or a hammer, and it's doable, but you said SWORD.

Step 3 Watch a 5 wound Carnifex die!

Maybe, maybe not.

2/3 chance to hit. Carnifexes are ws 3. A squad of 5 grey knights on the charge there is a fair chance of a dead carnifex, but probably only one. Also, carnifexes only have 4 wounds, iirc.

Personally, I don't play to win. I take sadistic joy in watching hundreds of guardsmen and tanks die.