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hotsauceman1 wrote:
I disagree, the having to roll two dice per model shooting/attacking kinda make the game slow down from what i saw.

Only when you first start. Just like 40K(where you eventually learn to pick out the dice you do or do not want in a large mass of them), you'll get to the point where a glance is all you need. I actually find the masses of dice in 40K takes longer these days.

If you're used to playing Monopoly, Settlers, or any other of a number of games that use 2 dice regularly, you probably already do it subconsciously.

Hyd wrote:To be fair, it's really, really hard to take 40k seriously as a game* when you have laid eyes on WMH's rules.

*Go ahead, feel free to point out a perceived oxymoron. You know what I meant

To be honest, I haven't taken 40k seriously as a game for about the last 20 years.
I tried WM (back in the beginning. There were no elves and no hordes) and it just didn't gel with me. It still doesn't. I kept my jacks (cygnar) because of the resemblance to the steam powered death-robots from a 2000AD story I read years ago. I haven't played a game in almost a year - and before that it was three years.

After reading other, better game rules, even WM/H pales into absurdity alongside 40k. Tomorrow's War and Infinity FTW.

Our local store closed last January but just before it did 90% of the gamers were playing Warmachine and finding a Warhammer game was next to impossible. I bought a bunch of Cygnar and started playing WM but miss a good game of 40K. Personally I like 40K over WM and have had a tough time finding a good game without driving over 1.5 hours one way or showing up at another store not knowing anyone and most are already committed to games…. I could hang around and wait for a table to open but then a lot of the players are calling it a night or just don’t feel like another game…
I am currently building a game room in my basement that has two 4’x 4’ tables, one 4’ x 8’ and I have a battle board I will be setting up as a city fight style board…
I’m slowly starting to get some of the “diehard” 40K players to show some interest. Other than that, I’m building more and spending quality time painting until something comes up.

Interest always cycles.........game will get hot again and they will go back to it..............GW is one of the longest running companies for gaming.........stick with it

Randomly PM people on here that you notice in your area? I know I didn't check the "fina a game" section for a long time(overlooked it really!).

Briancj wrote:

KGatch113 wrote:
The store will, in the end, lose money and go out of business by not running/pushing 40K, or any range it carries.

This is less and less true, every month.

You missed the point.

If a store does not adequately push the various games it sells, it will go out of business, whether it carries 40K, Flames of War etc. You have to recruit recruit recruit and you have to hold events and keep people's interest. Just sitting behind a counter reading a magazine, or just playing and pushing your favorite game will not keep your store open.

And while you may think it is less true these days with 40K, you are wrong. I've worked for GW and Battlefront. The sheer amount of money those games can make a store dwarfs anything PP can do. So you can make 500 bucks selling someone an army to play in 40K FOW, or you can sell someone a warmachine army for what..100? 200? Now you have to gamble that they will buy another army, to match what you would spend on GW.

That being said, most stores bread and butter is paid for by MTG and comics, not GW or PP. But I would bet money the stores which push 40K or FOW or both alongside PP are making more money then stores like the OP's.

I had a customer who carried FOW and he had very little sales, and he was close to closing. I asked him for an inventory and he carried almost none of the range...he never restocked. I told him if he restocked and ran events and put ads out he would get new players and old players back. His response was, his customers wanted to play Malifaux, and that's what he was pushing. You can bring the water to the horse, but you can't make him drink. If he ran a restaurant, he would be saying to the butcher, I don't want to carry the prime rib, because everyone is eating the hamburger....

KGatch113 wrote:

Briancj wrote:

KGatch113 wrote:
The store will, in the end, lose money and go out of business by not running/pushing 40K, or any range it carries.

This is less and less true, every month.

You missed the point.

If a store does not adequately push the various games it sells, it will go out of business, whether it carries 40K, Flames of War etc. You have to recruit recruit recruit and you have to hold events and keep people's interest. Just sitting behind a counter reading a magazine, or just playing and pushing your favorite game will not keep your store open.

I'd say you're wrong.

You say that the store needs to promote the games it sells. Obviously, it's pushing Warmachine/Hordes.

Here's a chart from a very well-off FLGS showing the amount of miniautes sold, by profit, for the year of 2011:



As you can see, WM/H equals GW sales (and that's combining 40k and Fantasy) and FoW. So far for this year, WM/H has only increased in popularity, and Malifaux has exploded as well. GW support has almost completely died off, with FoW still doing pretty well. As far as I can see, the OP's store could do quite well focusing on PP as it's miniature line.

Also, you show a critical misunderstanding of PP games. Yes, you can spend a relatively small amount of money to get a single army, but you're going to spend a LOT more to collect even a single faction (and that's not including Minions or Mercs). With WM/H's reliance on synergy and relative lack of 'bad' options, a player could easily spend a great deal of money to have a large collection to choice from whenever they want to change their game up.

As far as I know, the experience is somewhat similar for my FLGS (although FOW has a smaller piece of the pie and GW/Dys Wars/Firestorm/Historicals has a larger piece, relatively). WM/H players keep trickling figures to their "toolbox" through regular purchases, whereas GW players splurge on armies now and then, and it doesn't add up to as much. They still support FOW, WM/H, 40k and WHFB with events, as they all make money. Infinity, although we play it quite a lot, make them almost zero due to the low model count and the extremely gakky scandinavian distributor (which means the FLGS lose money to internet sales, especially from England, where people can order low volumes with free shipping and avoid VAT).

When they came to last weekend's con (where we did this: http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?112689-Demonstration-games-at-Arcon-28-Oslo-Norway&p=1509747#post1509747 as well as an Infinity table that magically eluded all attempts at photography throgh the entire weekend) they didn't even bother bringing any other miniature game than WM/H to sell, from prior experience. Nobody buys an entire 40k army at Arcon, but people do pick up toolbox additions and new players get battleboxes.

To the OP, I can only echo the advise of others: if you only want to play 40k with GW's ruleset, either run demos or try to entice ex-players into the game (might be 6th helps, although it just looks like another nick in the circle system so far), shift to a system you can use 40k miniatures with (Tomorrows War being one of the better known candidates, although there are quite a few others too - Crossfire I have good experience with) and see if the option to play 40k as a skirmish game works, so people don't have to splurge on $600+ purchases (which is a real barrier to entry). If that doesn't work, well, it's off to be a basement gamer...although that is a real community-killer.

infinite_array wrote:With WM/H's reliance on synergy and relative lack of 'bad' options, a player could easily spend a great deal of money to have a large collection to choice from whenever they want to change their game up.

Or they could do what I've done and buy into three seperate armies which I've been using to get my friends who don't even play wargames into WM/H (never mind the fact that it allows me quite a lot variety to choose from in my war gaming, I mean I've got three different ways of playing my cryx alone nevermind my khador and circle armies that are in various stages of completion).

Which, to get this thread back on topic, is probably what I'd do in the OP's circumstance. Buy a second army and bring it with you so you can invite other players to join you in a game at the store. Since it requires no investment on their part they're much more likely to give it a go, and next thing you know they're hooked (or hooked again in the case of lapsed 40k players but you get the point )

Kill Team is a nice little intro to the world of 40k. It's pretty much all I have been playing while painting my newest Guard army.

Briancj wrote:

KGatch113 wrote:
The store will, in the end, lose money and go out of business by not running/pushing 40K, or any range it carries.

This is less and less true, every month.

True, our local store has had to stop carrying 40k in store too. He just does a minimum order every month after asking what people want. The stock GW had given him to start off with was just dead stock, and it was totally crippling the store. Warmachine, Dystopian Wars and Magic are the only thing letting him stock 40k at the moment.

In other news, pretty much do what everyone else is saying. Ask to borrow a Warmahordes army, play a few friendly games. If you like it, get into it. If you don't, try to get some of your local players into 40k. Loan out armies once 6th drops, you might find that people quite like the new edition.

edit - spelling

WaaaaghLord wrote: Loan out armies once 6th drops, you might find that people quite like the new edition.

Hell, its in danger in pulling me back into 40k. The new edition is excellent excuse to try and get lapsed players to look at it again (esp if they still have armies).

inquisitorlewis wrote:Kill Team is a nice little intro to the world of 40k. It's pretty much all I have been playing while painting my newest Guard army.

Yes, I always thought it was such a shame that it was removed from the 5th edition rulebook, simply because it at least gave a chance to younger players or those unwilling/unable to pay for an entire army. Does anyone know if it has made a return for 6th edition?

The problem is that these days it has become a serious investment for most people to get into the game. Starting a new project, I find myself thinking that the hundreds of pounds I will need could help that little bit with the new car fund or saving for a mortgage. In contrast, if it were possible to buy a couple of small boxsets of GW stuff and play with them straight away then it wouldn't be such a big deal, and I'm sure would actually increase sales by some margin. At present, all but the hardcore veterans, and parents of kids who are willing to pay whatever, have been completely priced out of the games - I have lost count of the number of times I have heard "yes it looks like fun, but I wouldn't spend that much on it."

Although, I've managed to get a couple of non-game playing friends to drop £50 or so each on Infinity, so GW's loss is other company's gain with the way things are at present.

KGatch113 wrote:
And while you may think it is less true these days with 40K, you are wrong. I've worked for GW and Battlefront. The sheer amount of money those games can make a store dwarfs anything PP can do.

The fact that Warmachine outsold everything but 40K in 2011 in independently gathered sales records proves you wrong, especially on Battlefront.

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/22215.html

Top 5 Non-Collectible Miniature Lines – Q4 2011


Title

Publisher
1

Warhammer 40k

Games Workshop
2

Warmachine

Privateer Press
3

Warhammer Fantasy

Games Workshop
4

Hordes

Privateer Press
5

Malifaux

Wyrd Miniatures


According to ICv2, Warmachine has been #2 bestseller since at least 2006. You know who's never even been in the top 5? Battlefront. Please, tell me again about how much it dwarfs the money PP(who only sells through retail stores) makes stores.

Pacific wrote:

inquisitorlewis wrote:Kill Team is a nice little intro to the world of 40k. It's pretty much all I have been playing while painting my newest Guard army.

Yes, I always thought it was such a shame that it was removed from the 5th edition rulebook, simply because it at least gave a chance to younger players or those unwilling/unable to pay for an entire army. Does anyone know if it has made a return for 6th edition?

The problem is that these days it has become a serious investment for most people to get into the game. Starting a new project, I find myself thinking that the hundreds of pounds I will need could help that little bit with the new car fund or saving for a mortgage. In contrast, if it were possible to buy a couple of small boxsets of GW stuff and play with them straight away then it wouldn't be such a big deal, and I'm sure would actually increase sales by some margin. At present, all but the hardcore veterans, and parents of kids who are willing to pay whatever, have been completely priced out of the games - I have lost count of the number of times I have heard "yes it looks like fun, but I wouldn't spend that much on it."

Although, I've managed to get a couple of non-game playing friends to drop £50 or so each on Infinity, so GW's loss is other company's gain with the way things are at present.

Actually you can find simplified rules in the Battles Book. There also exists a few online rules for the game. Adepticon used the Galaxy in Flames blog rules. http://galaxyinflames.blogspot.com/

Doesn't matter what edition you play, most of the written rules can now carry over each edition.

Another option might be to play Necromunda, Space Hulk, smaller games of skirmish, based on platoon level/ squad level Vs company level with each of the individuals posing as thier own unit.

Playing Apoc, or some of the offshoot games, such as battlefleet gothic, or something along the likes of "Tiger Hunt, or dogfight- where you either use armor, fliers, or smaller vehicles to fight it out in urban, jungle, or desert boards.

One thing that might get people playing is for you to spring up a summer campaign, with prize support, or tie in gmaes with multi armied boards.


Bottom line, play 40K with variations on a theme.


I wish I had me some some of that Only War action, and figure out how to play a combination RPG/ Skirmish level game where I had me a figure for my character sheet, and had to fight across a multi boarded room of the Scenario...


I'd really dig doing this with any of the RPG's, in fact...


hmmm......

gots me some ideas, heres......

Grot 6 wrote:Another option might be to play Necromunda, Space Hulk, smaller games of skirmish, based on platoon level/ squad level Vs company level with each of the individuals posing as thier own unit.

Playing Apoc, or some of the offshoot games, such as battlefleet gothic, or something along the likes of "Tiger Hunt, or dogfight- where you either use armor, fliers, or smaller vehicles to fight it out in urban, jungle, or desert boards.

One thing that might get people playing is for you to spring up a summer campaign, with prize support, or tie in gmaes with multi armied boards.


Bottom line, play 40K with variations on a theme.


I wish I had me some some of that Only War action, and figure out how to play a combination RPG/ Skirmish level game where I had me a figure for my character sheet, and had to fight across a multi boarded room of the Scenario...


I'd really dig doing this with any of the RPG's, in fact...


hmmm......

gots me some ideas, heres......

Necromunda is a wonderful option. You can buy a gang for less than 50 dollars, and get a ton of use out of it. The Necromunda rulebook is on the GW website so you don't have to pay for rules. Plus there's a ton of fan web based material which really expands on the game. A really nice launching point for 40k.

If you decide to play Necromunda - which I would not really recommend, even if I still have my Van Saar for old times' sake (the system is seriously showing its age and both Necromunda and Mordheim are the definition of short-term gadfly games by their very nature) I would strongly advise against getting models directly from GW, as the molds they use for them are now well over a decade old and showing their age. Instead, get older models second hand.

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:If you decide to play Necromunda - which I would not really recommend, even if I still have my Van Saar for old times' sake (the system is seriously showing its age and both Necromunda and Mordheim are the definition of short-term gadfly games by their very nature) I would strongly advise against getting models directly from GW, as the molds they use for them are now well over a decade old and showing their age. Instead, get older models second hand.

Really? Because I just bought an Orlock gang, and an Arbites gang from GW direct, with Spyrers on the way. I see no issues with any of the minis that I received.

I have at one point (in 2007, I think it was) seen my old Van Saar, from the initial run of Necromunda back in 1995-96, next to a recent purchase. There was an obvious degradation in quality of the casts. Naturally enough, I think - they've been making models in those moulds for a long time. It is not quite as bad as some of the Epic vehicles, though.

Platuan4th wrote:

KGatch113 wrote:
And while you may think it is less true these days with 40K, you are wrong. I've worked for GW and Battlefront. The sheer amount of money those games can make a store dwarfs anything PP can do.

The fact that Warmachine outsold everything but 40K in 2011 in independently gathered sales records proves you wrong, especially on Battlefront.

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/22215.html

Top 5 Non-Collectible Miniature Lines – Q4 2011


Title

Publisher
1

Warhammer 40k

Games Workshop
2

Warmachine

Privateer Press
3

Warhammer Fantasy

Games Workshop
4

Hordes

Privateer Press
5

Malifaux

Wyrd Miniatures


According to ICv2, Warmachine has been #2 bestseller since at least 2006. You know who's never even been in the top 5? Battlefront. Please, tell me again about how much it dwarfs the money PP(who only sells through retail stores) makes stores.

Unfortunately I can't access the link provided, but my first thought is that I wonder where privateer press would stand if Warmachine and Hordes were combined since it is really one game and this separates them as if they are different systems.

Get rid of your 40k stuff and play Warmachine.

Those last sales numbers are wrong imo

Warmachine / Hordes is the same game, only different books as Warcaster/Warlocks use different Resourses.

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:I have at one point (in 2007, I think it was) seen my old Van Saar, from the initial run of Necromunda back in 1995-96, next to a recent purchase. There was an obvious degradation in quality of the casts. Naturally enough, I think - they've been making models in those moulds for a long time. It is not quite as bad as some of the Epic vehicles, though.

You do realize that molds get remade, right? Something that happened back in 07 more than likely has no bearing on something 5 years later. If the molds were that awful GW would have done 1 of 2 things.

1. Destroyed the molds and made the Van Saars OOP.
or
2. Remade molds from the master copies, so they could continue to sell them

I realize GW QC has been very shabby since the launch of finecast, but it wasn't always like that.

GW has different models for the second edition of Necromunda.

Even/Or, there are some excellent add ons from third parties out there that fit right in.

Along with that, you can use whatever figs you want to for the gangs, you just have to house rule them ( which, I might add is part of the fun)

As for "Showing its age"... A gang fight game where you can add in more stuff and keep going to the point that the gangs continue and split up?

I had one gang sprout out three more, and then another one who ended up having a guy turn into a hired gun/ bounty hunter.

This game, even after ten or so years is as relevent today as it was when it came out for a player.

And I'll go on ahead and remind you about the scenery... Those Bulkheads are still some of the best pieces for scratchbuilding that has even came out for the price.(at the time)

Spyder68 wrote:Those last sales numbers are wrong imo

Warmachine / Hordes is the same game, only different books as Warcaster/Warlocks use different Resourses.

I agree that they're the same game, but they're sold as different products lines, hence the two entries on ICv2's lists(they cultivate data from their sources by product line).

@ Haendas: The link shows the same info, but also says where they pull their numbers from(Retailers, distributors, and manufacturers) as well as links to other lists(collectible games, card/building games, board games, and RPGs). I provided it so that it didn't look like I was pulling info out of thin air without a source.

I don't know much about the other systems but I can tell you this. You don't see BattleTech there for a reason. I like battletech because of the system used. However, there is very little need to buy more Minis with the system with battletech and therefor LFGS doesn't carry much stock. They don't need to. It will be similiar with any gaming system that doesn't regularly produce new product.

That being said, with a limited number of units in WM/H, it is likely their sales will decrease unless they have a lot more product. Based off of my LFGS, there isn't much for the game in comparision to wh40k/whfb.

Grot 6 wrote:GW has different models for the second edition of Necromunda.

Which is 9 years ago. And no, they didn't.They are the exact same models I bought in 1995 - I am sitting with my originals in my hand right now comparing them to the offerings on the GW site. They might have remade the molds, but from the state of the ones I saw, I seriously doubt it. They certainly haven't done so for a number of other lines. I know that the Necromunda collectors I know do not buy from GW direct for this reason. Games that end up in the Specialist Games category aren't maintained in the same way as the Big Three. Which is really sad for Epic, a game that really deserved to live on.

Necromunda is showing its age for several reasons. One is the mechanics themselves, but this also applied to 40k 2nd ed: stat 1-10 d6 systems have never been ideal for skirmish games, especially with the xp/advancement system that inevitably breaks a campaign (and this applies equally to the original and the fan mods). The other - which is relevant to the OP - is that it isn't really a good "portal" game to 40k anymore for new players - hell, it was hardly a good fit for 3rd edition 40k.

The other main problem is that both Mordheim and Necromunda aren't stayer games for the majority of players. Yes, I realize there is a tiny amount of players that play it religiously, but they aren't what the OP is looking for. He wants to rebuild a 40k community. Back when I was a teenager, we ran half a dozen Necromunda campaigns in 1995-1996, but they all petered out when the gaps started showing as the xp/advancement system trundled on. Over the years, I have seen the same with Mordheim and Necromunda over and over and over - the last Mordheim campaign I saw petered out lasted two months after an epic effort from the organizer. It is simply the nature of the two games.

If the OP wants to regularily play games with 40k miniatures in his LGS, why bother with a game that will, at best, only cause a brief flash of playing? Necromunda was fine as a portal game back in the day - play a couple of weeks or months with new players, and when the campaign peters out you might get some of them into regular 40k - or currently, as a palate cleanser for active mono - 40k players that do not want to stray to far from their One True Love. It's not a recruitment game anymore.

Who are ICV2 and where do they get their stats from? The link above is less than informative.

6th ed is your best hope in the short-medium term but in the long run it is GW themselves who need to make the changes required to regrow their markets.

If there are no 40k players locally then you will simply have to adapt and play a new game system.

Gnawer wrote:It's not "nobody", it's "nobody in this one gaming store". Boo hoo. Try playing where I live, literally 10 guys with any wargaming interest at all in two quite large cities (2-hour drive from one to another). Still, we manage to find an opponent every couple of weeks.

Your situation is probably majority of the crowd is not so interested in 40k anymore, so it's difficult to find a random opponent. So just find two or three guys still interested in 40k and play them specifically. No way there's zero, even in that one store.

I literally can not stress enough how much this post bothered me. Please re-examine your priorities before posting a flagrant "one up" story and slamming the OP. You have absolutely no way of knowing what his FLGS is like, or his local area.