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Correct me if I'm wrong here...

Tervigon psychic ability Onslaught states that as long as the unit it buffed has fleet, it can still assault in the same turn that it has ran.
Onslaught on a Hormagaunt squad. Move 6". 3D6 pick the highest(re-roll low numbers to try and get a 6 from fleet,) assault 2D6"(re-roll low numbers again due to fleet)
Giving hormagaunts(and Genestealers) a pretty wide assault range.

Maybe Onslaught might be worth taking if you take some hormagaunts? Hell, it would allow a Trygon to move, shoot, run, assault!!
I really hope I'm not wrong... I looked at the errata to see if they re-worded Onslaught, but they didn't.

C-Fex wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong here...

Tervigon psychic ability Onslaught states that as long as the unit it buffed has fleet, it can still assault in the same turn that it has ran.
Onslaught on a Hormagaunt squad. Move 6". 3D6 pick the highest(re-roll low numbers to try and get a 6 from fleet,) assault 2D6"(re-roll low numbers again due to fleet)
Giving hormagaunts(and Genestealers) a pretty wide assault range.

Maybe Onslaught might be worth taking if you take some hormagaunts? Hell, it would allow a Trygon to move, shoot, run, assault!!
I really hope I'm not wrong... I looked at the errata to see if they re-worded Onslaught, but they didn't.

Unfortunately, the spirit of the rule is that Onslaught grants the ability to run and shoot in the same phase, but not the ability to run and assault in the same phase(Which was provided by Fleet).

I had been told before that TS/AG on gaunts were making them too expensive but now with rage I see them pulling down squads AND glancing parking lots away albeit one tank at a time lest they lose rage.

As was mentioned Warriors/HT with bone swords will be kicking butt and taking names.

Gargoyles with TS/AG with HoW? I wonder if the TS will allow a reroll to wound?

I am sad to see Genestealers slapped for 1st turn charges when infiltrating though. Guess outflanking could still threaten but at least it's something that affects all 1st turn charges. I think ymgarls may make some lists again to counter this.

I am afraid if this is the edition of flyers because we'll have what? 5 units that can try to glance a flyer? HT, HG, zoans/brood lords if they trade in their powers and the TFex? Actually I think someone mentioned the dakka fex. That may be the best answer with rerolls to hit.

I'm thinking they'll be some good diversity in new army lists like seeing raveners on the table, with flyrants or Tfexs as well (I don't see them in my area at all)

mrwhoop wrote:
I am sad to see Genestealers slapped for 1st turn charges when infiltrating though. Guess outflanking could still threaten but at least it's something that affects all 1st turn charges.

Well, sort of.

It says in the Infiltrate rule that "A unit that deploys using these rules cannot charge in the first turn."

The book also says that unless otherwise specified, turn = player turn.

So units that infiltrate can't charge during the first (player) turn (ie, the top of Turn 1), but they can they still charge during the second (player) turn (ie, the bottom of Turn 1).

I just realised that tyranid psychic defense has gotten a lot better as we get both deny the witch and shadow in the warp, while psychic hoods in other armies only buff deny the witch

I think brood lords w/Psychic Screech and a Biomancy power certainly have a place. I'm still toying with a bunch of different ideas but units of 2 Devourer Carnifexes with a prime w/regen, boneswords, and poison to distribute wounds between them is pretty awesome...

Hulksmash wrote:I think brood lords w/Psychic Screech and a Biomancy power certainly have a place. I'm still toying with a bunch of different ideas but units of 2 Devourer Carnifexes with a prime w/regen, boneswords, and poison to distribute wounds between them is pretty awesome...

Unfortunately, unless they issue an errata that gives broodlords a BS skill they can't use most of the psychic powers available to them, ie. psychic shriek. However the idea of being able to allocate wounds to carnifexes now seems to have a lot of merit, add a tervigon to put endurance on them and they're pretty tough, especially since there is nothing stopping both "it will not die" and regen.

rollawaythestone wrote:

MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:Is it me, or are Ripper Swarms now rather awesome?
- fearless by default, so you don't have to worry about Synapse
- Rage after Ld 5, meaning they could have 6 attacks each on the charge!
- They don't suffer from Fearless wounds any more, meaning they are great at tarpitting
- Only 12pts including the ability to deep strike, I see them as great to use to cause issues for weapons that would Instant Death us with target saturation of instant-deathable units, or drop them neer the Zanthropes or Doom as psuedo bodyguards

I would love to believe that rippers became useable, but wouldn't they still take wounds from their mindless ability when outside of synapse?

Not only that, my understanding is that the majority of the missions are objective based; are ripper swarms still unable to claim objectives or was that last edition? I don't have my codex with me.

Swarms cannot claim objectives in 6E, same as 5E. Would have been a nice change though.

Some random thoughts...

Right now I'm loving all the Tyranid dakka. All that S4/5/6 firepower that didn't accomplish much when units were hiding in their metal boxes is suddenly in play for antivehicle work...and then eventually antipersonnel work also. As boxes get opened -- and as the metagame shifts away from all mech, all the time -- the whole game moves in a favorable direction for the Tyranids.

I also think Fleet is much better than some people think, namely because of premeasuring. You'll always have positional awareness to help guide your reroll decisions, and that's huge.

I'm excited about my winged Tyrant, but it has me thinking that in order to get max benefit from it, it might behoove me to run a couple Harpies as well.

Null deployment is gone, but I quickly put together a version that reserves 8 out of 11 units, with those units entering on a 2+ on turn 2. That ain't bad. I'll have to figure out how to protect the stuff starting on the table (likely Tervigons), but I'm hoping that some combo of Night Fighting, psychics and maybe Venomthropes can get the job done. Turn 1 is the real danger...after I drop 6-8 units on them on Turn 2, they'll have other targets to think about. I'll be going with Strategic Warlord traits for sure.

Mindshred wrote:

mrwhoop wrote:
I am sad to see Genestealers slapped for 1st turn charges when infiltrating though. Guess outflanking could still threaten but at least it's something that affects all 1st turn charges.

Well, sort of.

It says in the Infiltrate rule that "A unit that deploys using these rules cannot charge in the first turn."

The book also says that unless otherwise specified, turn = player turn.

So units that infiltrate can't charge during the first (player) turn (ie, the top of Turn 1), but they can they still charge during the second (player) turn (ie, the bottom of Turn 1).

I'm reading it as the first turn I (the player) take. So even if I go second in the game, on my first player turn I cannot assault if I infiltrated.

edited* rereading page 424 last bottom bold...

Also, monstrous creatures do not seem to have the extra d6 for Armor pen. anymore.

Thus no easy MC vs Vehicle 2d6 pen. (Though you get a +1 to the damage charts for AP 2)

Result: Carnifexes are not awesome against AV 14 in melee
Hive Tyrants are not so effective vs AV 10....

Lacross wrote:Also, monstrous creatures do not seem to have the extra d6 for Armor pen. anymore.

Thus no easy MC vs Vehicle 2d6 pen. (Though you get a +1 to the damage charts for AP 2)

Result: Carnifexes are not awesome against AV 14 in melee
Hive Tyrants are not so effective vs AV 10....

But you have missed that all MCs get smash, which is hugely good, it doesn't benefit Carnifexes or wraithlords (or anything with S10 really); sucks to be them, but it always will it seems, and makes it just as easy to penetrate tanks. Even against AV14 MCs have a 75% chance to atleast glance (against 5th which had a 66%). Also it is insanely easier to actually hit vehicles.

Ah, but the decision then is whether to go for enough attacks to wreck from hull point damage or to go for the fewer instances of penetrating.


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(Penetrating hits also do hull point damage)


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Specifically hive tyrants and str 6 MC.

I'm a little curious as to why people are worrying so much about armour now. Since it has been so obviously nerfed I am anticipating you will see one of 2 things happening soon. Firstly most people will just stop using them. In 5th people didn't take Pyrovores for a reason (and in 6th come to think of it) and it's the same reason people will drop vehicles from their lists. Next people will begin to adapt and overcome. My opinion is Rhino rush will make a big comeback (not just BA's but all flavour of marines). They are cheap and can just about get you where you need to be with their 3 HP's. After that they provide you cover saves or just block LoS. More static vehicles will become a thing of the past since mobility seems to be king from what I have read so far.

And if this is the case (which I think it will be) Nids just received a huge buff. Our anti-infantry shooting is sone of the best in the game. No-one can put out shots like dakkagaunts or MC devourers. Sure we have *some* issues with fliers, but if our Hive guard aren't pre-occupied with tyring to kill loads of vehicles then at least we have a decent shot. Oh and Preferred enemy on Tyrants makes our shooting even more lethal if we advance as a phalanx.

Nids shall rock in 6th. Shame I had to sell them to make room for the new baby (6 days to go).

Lacross wrote:Ah, but the decision then is whether to go for enough attacks to wreck from hull point damage or to go for the fewer instances of penetrating.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Penetrating hits also do hull point damage)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Specifically hive tyrants and str 6 MC.

You're not worrying bout enough attacks, you always round up so all of the tyranid MCS are getting atleast 3 attacks with smash (trygons get 4). We either hit automatically if they haven't moved or hit on 3s, thanks to preferred enemy or scything talons they will all hit, and with the rerolls that means everything below AV14 is almost guaranteed to be penetrated.

You also get the extra hammer attack. So first attack S6, maybe a lower chance of penetrating, followed by 3 more penetrating hits.

Compared to having your normal amount of attacks (not necessarily twice as many) which only have half the chance to even glance and don't get the reroll.

No decision.


Carnifexes will do very well because with crushing claws can end up with 8 S9/10 attacks, that's the only point where you'll have to make the decision about choosing smash when you come up against AV14 and you have to choose between more S10 attacks or half as many S10 with the reroll.

lord_bobbington wrote:
Carnifexes will do very well because with crushing claws can end up with 8 S9/10 attacks, that's the only point where you'll have to make the decision about choosing smash when you come up against AV14 and you have to choose between more S10 attacks or half as many S10 with the reroll.

I'm not convinced of this. Sure in the right place, Carnifexes can eat tanks like I eat pizza (which is alot). But the main problem you'll have is getting their overpriced asses up to the tank in the first place. They're not survivable enough to just wander up to the enemy line without drawing fire, and will have trouble catching a tank without Fleet or lucky charge rolls. You can't drop them in spore pods because they have to sit around for a turn while everything nearby runs away, firing wildly back towards the fex (plus for the cost of the fex+pod you could have gotten a Trygon that's more survivable, does the same damage with Smash, can shoot when it arrives and is more reliable thanks to Fleet).

Perhaps it's the tinfoil hat talking but I have the distinct feeling that GW deliberately made fexes this bad because everyone bought so many in 3e/4e, and this way they could sell lots of lovely new Trygon kits instead. The options to fix them are so simple it's amazing none of them were picked (lower base points cost, extra Toughness, wounds or even a temporary speed increase to charge).

Edit: I think the best option for Fexes is to just bring dual devourer and use them as a general purpose supporting gun unit. The twin-linking and crazy amount of S6 shots give them a chance to swat down nearby fliers, and in a pinch you could barrel it out of your line to munch on a nearby transport.


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mrwhoop wrote:I had been told before that TS/AG on gaunts were making them too expensive but now with rage I see them pulling down squads AND glancing parking lots away albeit one tank at a time lest they lose rage.

Being able to glance transports to death brings with it a delicious new trick. This makes more sense on Gargoyles as they're faster and cheaper, but Hormagaunts or even Termagants can do it too.

Take AG and charge a transport with AV10 on at least one side. Make sure your surround it completely. If you succeed in glancing it to death, it becomes a wreck and the occupants have to emergency disembark. However because you have it surrounded they can't be placed in contact with the hull - and the units inside are automatically destroyed.

Wouldn't Harpies be a good counter to enemy fliers? With Vector Strike and Stinger Salvo they will hit about 3.2 times with S5 on side armour. While I haven't played against flyers yet, it could seriously hurt Ork flyers and other flyers roughly the same size.

edit: A Devourer Carnifex would do about 3.5 hits at S6 so the Carni performs better already.. Never mind about the Harpy

Some random musings...

With all the changes to MC's, FNP and power weapons I'm considering using a Tyrannofex in a completely different role. I figure that the rupture cannon isn't too effective anymore since the chance of destroying a vehicle in 1 shot has been cut in half (on top of it's already poor BS).

So what if the T-fex is used as a linebreaker instead? Sit it in front of your advancing army, supported by Terivgons (and ideally a Venomthrope) while keeping Endurance on it as best you can. This buys you two 5+ saves in addition to regenerating wounds in case anything beats the beefy 2+ armour. Anything crazy enough to charge it will be met by a Termagant screen, Venomthrope defensive grenades and dangerous terrain, in addition to needing something like powerfists which strike at the same initiative.

And if they don't break through the defenses, you can happily shuffle around flushing infantry out of nearby objectives. The Thorax Swarm special rule lets you fire 3 weapons, meaning an S6 template, S5 template, and S5 large blast. And because all those are assault weapons, you have the option to charge in and finish off any survivors with the newly buffed Toxin Sacs.

Am I insane or can this actually work?


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feluca wrote:Wouldn't Harpies be a good counter to enemy fliers? With Vector Strike and Stinger Salvo they will hit about 3.2 times with S5 on side armour. While I haven't played against flyers yet, it could seriously hurt Ork flyers and other flyers roughly the same size.

Blast weapons can never hit flyers, and Harpies can only take blast weapons. Yeah, I won't be buying one when it comes out :(

xttz wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

feluca wrote:Wouldn't Harpies be a good counter to enemy fliers? With Vector Strike and Stinger Salvo they will hit about 3.2 times with S5 on side armour. While I haven't played against flyers yet, it could seriously hurt Ork flyers and other flyers roughly the same size.

Blast weapons can never hit flyers, and Harpies can only take blast weapons. Yeah, I won't be buying one when it comes out :(

Because the only use for a flying MC is for dogfighting, right?

-Loki- wrote:

xttz wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

feluca wrote:Wouldn't Harpies be a good counter to enemy fliers? With Vector Strike and Stinger Salvo they will hit about 3.2 times with S5 on side armour. While I haven't played against flyers yet, it could seriously hurt Ork flyers and other flyers roughly the same size.

Blast weapons can never hit flyers, and Harpies can only take blast weapons. Yeah, I won't be buying one when it comes out :(

Because the only use for a flying MC is for dogfighting, right?

It doesn't do anything that a dual-devourer flyrant can't do better. Sure its a cheaper, but your Flyrant will be buffing other units, offering psychic defense, glancing things to death with twin-linked S6 fire, breaking more things with the higher strength vector strike, challenging enemy IC's, generally living longer and zooming around like a living swiss-army knife of abilities.
Don't forget that venom cannons got a heavy nerf this patch too - the changes to the damage table mean they can't even destroy non-open-topped vehicles anymore.

Perhaps the Harpy kit will get multiple build options like the Dakkajet/Flyrant/Trygon kits did, with new rules in White Dwarf...

I am thinking of dakka fex's to take down flyers dropping in spore pods behind the target and dakka fex's fueled by the power of Onslaught so they can run and fire.

Another thought...while cover has generally been reduced overall, you have to love being able to get cover for MCs with only 25% coverage. The old Termagant-medium bug-MC screeng is back in business. Heck, you can probably even use Gargoyles to get 25% coverage for Tervigons and skip the medium bugs entirely.

xttz wrote:Perhaps it's the tinfoil hat talking but I have the distinct feeling that GW deliberately made fexes this bad because everyone bought so many in 3e/4e, and this way they could sell lots of lovely new Trygon kits instead. The options to fix them are so simple it's amazing none of them were picked (lower base points cost, extra Toughness, wounds or even a temporary speed increase to charge).

Edit: I think the best option for Fexes is to just bring dual devourer and use them as a general purpose supporting gun unit. The twin-linking and crazy amount of S6 shots give them a chance to swat down nearby fliers, and in a pinch you could barrel it out of your line to munch on a nearby transport.

You don't need a tinfoil hat to figure that much out. 75% of my army vaporized with the release of the last nid book. I stopped playing my nids because I refuse to buy 75% of an army that I already owned. With this edition my dakka nids will be finding thier place on the table again but unfortuantely 30 genestealers are still kicked to the curb.

xttz wrote:
I'm not convinced of this. Sure in the right place, Carnifexes can eat tanks like I eat pizza (which is alot). But the main problem you'll have is getting their overpriced asses up to the tank in the first place. They're not survivable enough to just wander up to the enemy line without drawing fire, and will have trouble catching a tank without Fleet or lucky charge rolls. You can't drop them in spore pods because they have to sit around for a turn while everything nearby runs away, firing wildly back towards the fex (plus for the cost of the fex+pod you could have gotten a Trygon that's more survivable, does the same damage with Smash, can shoot when it arrives and is more reliable thanks to Fleet).

Perhaps it's the tinfoil hat talking but I have the distinct feeling that GW deliberately made fexes this bad because everyone bought so many in 3e/4e, and this way they could sell lots of lovely new Trygon kits instead. The options to fix them are so simple it's amazing none of them were picked (lower base points cost, extra Toughness, wounds or even a temporary speed increase to charge).

Edit: I think the best option for Fexes is to just bring dual devourer and use them as a general purpose supporting gun unit. The twin-linking and crazy amount of S6 shots give them a chance to swat down nearby fliers, and in a pinch you could barrel it out of your line to munch on a nearby transport.

Put some carnifexes in a group with a tyranid prime with regeneration, back it up with a tervigon and perhaps a venomthrope, you've got a regenerating, feel no pain, cover saved, crazy wound alloacting, undying group that can destroy tanks and anything else it comes into contact with. How is that not survivable? You can allocate wounds, to T6 creatures who can get feel no pain and cover saves against every shot (armour if they can) who can then regenerate it, or give it to the prime who has double the chance with it will not die and regeneration.

You got the extra speed, they can charge up to 12", they're as fast as everything else, you don't even need to buy stuff on them to make them good at what they do now. Oh yeah there is also the plasma cannon you can attach to each one to give them one of the few anti-terminator guns and the ability to glance even more tanks. They're expensive, but you think you're going to get a non-expensive unit that can do that? Trygons are no longer more survivable or instantly better at destroying tanks, they're more reliable at going further, but they can't actually go faster you can still go less than a trygon by rolling badly.

I think you might want to put away the tinfoil hat.

lord_bobbington wrote:Put some carnifexes in a group with a tyranid prime with regeneration, back it up with a tervigon and perhaps a venomthrope, you've got a regenerating, feel no pain, cover saved, crazy wound alloacting, undying group that can destroy tanks and anything else it comes into contact with. How is that not survivable? You can allocate wounds, to T6 creatures who can get feel no pain and cover saves against every shot (armour if they can) who can then regenerate it, or give it to the prime who has double the chance with it will not die and regeneration.

You got the extra speed, they can charge up to 12", they're as fast as everything else, you don't even need to buy stuff on them to make them good at what they do now. Oh yeah there is also the plasma cannon you can attach to each one to give them one of the few anti-terminator guns and the ability to glance even more tanks. They're expensive, but you think you're going to get a non-expensive unit that can do that? Trygons are no longer more survivable or instantly better at destroying tanks, they're more reliable at going further, but they can't actually go faster you can still go less than a trygon by rolling badly.

I think you might want to put away the tinfoil hat.

Sure you could totally do that. Prime, Venomthrope and three screamer-killer fexes in one nicely lumped together 700pt deathstar unit. I'm not sure how you're meant to play wound allocation games with that Prime though, given the new rules. Put it out front and it needs to survive a whole turn of shooting for the regeneration to have any use. The Fexes with Endurance will last better, but they're still a they only have an 18" threat range (if they're very lucky) and alot of that is tied down to the randomness of the 2D6 roll. It could just as easily be an 8" threat range. Remember the Trygon's Fleet lets it re-roll one or both of those dice as required, making it far far more statistically reliable to get a good charge in.

Bio-Plasma always struck me as something that should be a free upgrade for fexes. In this case if we're hunting vehicles with glances, should I take three S7 shots, or thirty-six twin-linked S6 shots with a longer range? Hmm...

If I were playing against that I'd be rubbing my hands with glee at the prospect of getting an Enfeeble, Hallucination, Terrify or JotWW on it and watching it fold. Of course if I didn't have those, I'd just avoid it with my quicker vehicles and plenty of advance warning of what single unit to avoid.

If you're trying to convince me that fexes are viable anti-tank monsters, you're not going to do it with 700pt deathstar lists I'm afraid. I'll be keeping the hat on for now, thanks.

I'm more of the mindset of dropping dakka fexes behind vehicles with drop spores. Less points are lost than a deathstar if something that wacks things with low agility or ld and the less points you spend here the more points your opponent has to worry about at the front of the lines. Lets not forget that if you drop close enough your pods can shoot open tanks rear armor too.

xttz wrote:

Sure you could totally do that. Prime, Venomthrope and three screamer-killer fexes in one nicely lumped together 700pt deathstar unit. I'm not sure how you're meant to play wound allocation games with that Prime though, given the new rules. Put it out front and it needs to survive a whole turn of shooting for the regeneration to have any use. The Fexes with Endurance will last better, but they're still a they only have an 18" threat range (if they're very lucky) and alot of that is tied down to the randomness of the 2D6 roll. It could just as easily be an 8" threat range. Remember the Trygon's Fleet lets it re-roll one or both of those dice as required, making it far far more statistically reliable to get a good charge in.

Bio-Plasma always struck me as something that should be a free upgrade for fexes. In this case if we're hunting vehicles with glances, should I take three S7 shots, or thirty-six twin-linked S6 shots with a longer range? Hmm...

If I were playing against that I'd be rubbing my hands with glee at the prospect of getting an Enfeeble, Hallucination, Terrify or JotWW on it and watching it fold. Of course if I didn't have those, I'd just avoid it with my quicker vehicles and plenty of advance warning of what single unit to avoid.

If you're trying to convince me that fexes are viable anti-tank monsters, you're not going to do it with 700pt deathstar lists I'm afraid. I'll be keeping the hat on for now, thanks.

So you're saying that carnifexes aren't good at tank hunting when you can think up ways to defend against it? I'm shocked, but why can't you come up with ways to defend against Trygons? Who in the end, as I said while they may have a more reliable distance (i never said they didn't), no longer have a longer distance and can still roll badly. If the tank is 19" away, then it doesn't matter which monster you choose for assault, why is the trygon better?

As for the bio plasma I never said use that for tank hunting, I said terminator hunting, since that will be the direction of 6th ed, I also never said do it, I was saying that these are things you can do and are real possibilities when 2+ armour saves will be more prevalent.

And you play wound allocation with a prime because of Look out sir, when you fire at the squad and the prime is closest you can then just allocate it to any of the other carnifexes in the squad.

But you want to keep your mind closed to options, then I can't convince you otherwise.

Its kind of required to think of ways to easily defeat a deathstar unit because while it may be a powerful combination it will be rolled by the abilities xttz mentioned AND those abilities tend to show up more times than not in a competetive setting/tourney.

Part of winning with an all comers list is minimizing damage from the powerful things you are most likely going to run into.

Exuse me if I may get in on the Carnifex vs Trygon debate?

I didn't read anything about Fleet making you able to assault after you run, can we say that the Trygon and Carnifex now move at the same speed.

I may have misread the Smash rule since I glanced at my friends book (I'll be getting mine with the starterbox), I don't think it says that you have to use the smash attack. Thus, a Trygon allowed to feed would have 5 attacks at str 10 which would give him a 85% chance of kiling a Rhino, whereas a Carnifex allowed to feed would have 7 attacks str 10 which would give him a 119% chance of kiling a Rhino and do it for 30 points less. And even if I did read it wrong and you must perform the Smash the Carnifex will still have the same attacks via Crushing Claws as the Trygon, for cheaper.

You can argue all day about whether those 2 wounds are worth the 30 points but, there is no denying the power of the Carnifex.