Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The sculpting has changed for the better so the potential is there...but Holy Father of Terra has the shift in aesthetics been horrifying. What are they thinking upstairs??

The problem with the shift in aesthetics is it suits some armies more than others, and even then, it suits some units better than others.

Just looking at the 6th edition releases. I'm pretty ambivalent to the whole release, but I didn't find any of the aesthetic choices bad. I even like the segway of khorne. Chaos Marines? feth me. The Raptors and DV stuff looked awesome. The dinobots and heldrake look terrible. Dark Angels? I rather liked most of the release, but that flying DJ booth was an affront to gamers everywhere. Tau? No problem with any of it. Honestly, they nailed that one, aesthetically. Eldar? I feel the same way. I don't even have a problem with the Wraithknight other than the cost.

I even like all of the new Vampire Counts stuff, including the Crypt Horrors and Vargheists, but then I'm one of those odd people that doesn't have a problem with the Ghouls.

It makes me worried for Tyranids next release though, because the strength of the Tyranid line has been their willingness to stick to certain design decisions.

 -Loki- wrote:
It makes me worried for Tyranids next release though, because the strength of the Tyranid line has been their willingness to stick to certain design decisions.

And when they deviated from that design decision (a number of 3rd Ed units), Jes Goodwin beat them about the head with a stick and retook control of the Tyranids, bringing consistency to the line and peace to the galaxy.

Now I’m afraid we’re going to get unwanted and unnecessary ‘big’ units in the next Codex with Cruddacian names like Slaughterfex and Brutalthrope and other such nonsense, all tied to beasts that ignore Jes’ hard-coded Tyranid racial aesthetic.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
It makes me worried for Tyranids next release though, because the strength of the Tyranid line has been their willingness to stick to certain design decisions.

And when they deviated from that design decision (a number of 3rd Ed units), Jes Goodwin beat them about the head with a stick and retook control of the Tyranids, bringing consistency to the line and peace to the galaxy.

Now I’m afraid we’re going to get unwanted and unnecessary ‘big’ units in the next Codex with Cruddacian names like Slaughterfex and Brutalthrope and other such nonsense, all tied to beasts that ignore Jes’ hard-coded Tyranid racial aesthetic.

I'd dig two more large units - a Dactylis and Haruspex redesign in a dual kit. That's about it though. I'd love it dearly if they renamed the Tyrannofex to Exocrine and the Tervigon to Malefactor as well.

Those two large units and renames would fill out what we had in Epic short of biotitans.

 Ailaros wrote:
Right, it's definitely seeming to work both ways.

Because while you're getting hideous attrocities like



You're also getting things like...





It's like, perhaps, what they're doing is trying to add the same amount of detail to every model, and it looks good on the big ones but not on the small ones.

In any case, though, I feel like 2 years ago, my greenstuff skills were good enough to replicate a decent-size chunk of what GW produced, given the time and motivation, and a decent-size chunk more with the inclusion of perhaps one or two skills into my skill set.

For the above two pictures, or for the new eldar fighter, etc. etc., I don't even know where I'd begin, much less if I'd ever actually be able to make a model even close to that.

Can I have some of what you are smoking?

Now almost every new models has been stunning and well I can't ask for more. Some look goofy like the maiden guard for high elf army. Great models not my favorite but that's personal. Also chaos chariot riders look lame but not from modeling but again personal taste.

 -Loki- wrote:
I'd dig two more large units - a Dactylis and Haruspex redesign in a dual kit. That's about it though. I'd love it dearly if they renamed the Tyrannofex to Exocrine and the Tervigon to Malefactor as well.

Those two large units and renames would fill out what we had in Epic short of biotitans.

That would be perfect. It would make the Tyranid big beasties more rounded:

1. Exocrine – direct ranged beast.
2. Dactylis – indirect ranged beast.
3. Haruspex – melee beast.
4. Malefactor – transport beast.

Leaving the Trygon/Mawloc as ambush beasts and old faithful himself, the Carnifex, as the assault beast.

Sure it’d make the HS slot a little crowded, but that’s nothing new.

The DV chaos lord looks like someone took a regular CSM model, dunked it in superglue, and then dunked it into a box of random bitz. There's no theme, no cohesion, no real character.

Just a static, confused, overcluttered pile of garbage. More detail is NOT better detail. Something which whatever GW's new ability to put detail on stuff has somehow caused their designers to forget.

They can have that level of fiddly bitz on a stegadon-sized model, but just because they can doesn't mean they SHOULD on the smaller stuff.

And that's the strange thing, because their new large stuff is indescribably better. That's what makes me a little bit curious about the small stuff. Perhaps that's the cost of being able to add more detail without really doing any more work when you're in the world of computer modelling rather than with one's hands. With the latter, your bruised and broken fingers will tell you when it's time to stop. That effect may have prevented them from making the phenomenal new large models, but...

 Ailaros wrote:
The DV chaos lord looks like someone took a regular CSM model, dunked it in superglue, and then dunked it into a box of random bitz. There's no theme, no cohesion, no real character.

Just a static, confused, overcluttered pile of garbage. More detail is NOT better detail. Something which whatever GW's new ability to put detail on stuff has somehow caused their designers to forget.

They can have that level of fiddly bitz on a stegadon-sized model, but just because they can doesn't mean they SHOULD on the smaller stuff.

And that's the strange thing, because their new large stuff is indescribably better. That's what makes me a little bit curious about the small stuff. Perhaps that's the cost of being able to add more detail without really doing any more work when you're in the world of computer modelling rather than with one's hands. With the latter, your bruised and broken fingers will tell you when it's time to stop. That effect may have prevented them from making the phenomenal new large models, but...

i do agree with you but it has alot of potential though. Get rid of the two hanging icons (on the pistol and the other one), get rid of the loin cloth with the derp face on it and get rid of the wolf pelt and i think it's a great model.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
My problem isn't lack of detail, it's too much of it.

A lot of these kits are very busy, the mini's have too much going on and you just have a hard time making things out. The chaos mini's in particular suffered from this in my opinion.

It always seems like they get carried away and just add way too much random things to the models, which makes them kind of hard to convert or personalize. But they do have very sharp detail at least.

I mean look at that abomination that's coming out for apocalypse for chaos. That thing is hideous.

Basically, modeling technology improved, their sculptors got worse.

I don't really mind the chaos apoc lord of battle, it looks ok imo

but alot of the dark vengeance models were terrible in that "busy" sense.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
I'd dig two more large units - a Dactylis and Haruspex redesign in a dual kit. That's about it though. I'd love it dearly if they renamed the Tyrannofex to Exocrine and the Tervigon to Malefactor as well.

Those two large units and renames would fill out what we had in Epic short of biotitans.

That would be perfect. It would make the Tyranid big beasties more rounded:

1. Exocrine – direct ranged beast.
2. Dactylis – indirect ranged beast.
3. Haruspex – melee beast.
4. Malefactor – transport beast.

Leaving the Trygon/Mawloc as ambush beasts and old faithful himself, the Carnifex, as the assault beast.

Sure it’d make the HS slot a little crowded, but that’s nothing new.

Pretty much my thoughts. However, the Tervigon, even renamed Malefactor, shouldn't become a general transport beast. I honestly think Tyranids are getting on fine without transports (and the Tervigon is slower than what its transporting anyway). The change they made, making it a breeder for Termagants, was good enough. They both fit logical reimaginings of the original units for the new aesthetic, gameplay style and upgrades.

I just really wish they smacked Cruddace in the head and said 'No! Malefactor and Exocrine!'.

Overcomplexity has been a feature of GWs Minis for a long time. You know, skulls, chains and skulls on chains. Other miniature lines at the time where much more plain. The Void and Caltos lines by Kevin White are a good example. Detail does not equal complexity. But now they have really gone overboard wit all the bells and whistles.

What I imagine could be the problem is that the models are now designed on the computer screen and the designer forget how small they actually are. If the DV chaos lord was a 20 cm piece it would look good but not at 28mm.

One of the possible issues is that the way the 3d modeller that they use works they can essentially copy/paste design elements rather than sculpting a similar, but different, element. So, a building might have half a dozen iterations of a dead tree.

My feeling is that it can make the models look cluttered - too busy. More toy than model. The Chaos Marine shown above is one example, just a bit over the line.

That said - seeing the button holes on the sleeves of the silver helms in the IoB box made me smile - there was not an overwhelming amount of detail, but what they had worked.

They just need to find a middle road - some of their sculptors already do, others do not add enough detail, but some have the porridge just right.

The Auld Grump

 Ailaros wrote:
More detail is NOT better detail.

This appears to be the big difference between GW design philosophy and Everybody Else.

That, and the idea that flying dragon airplane could ever be a good thing.

 sourclams wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
More detail is NOT better detail.

This appears to be the big difference between GW design philosophy and Everybody Else.

That, and the idea that flying dragon airplane could ever be a good thing.

Agreed... although from the pics Ailaros presented, I'd have to switch which ones are bad and which are good. I find the CSM captain to be a good example of tasteful detail whereas that flying undead chariot thing is a garish assault on my eyes that would have looked a hell of alot better without the flying wispy flamey things. It reminds me of the R&B singers that turn a normal song that they could sing incredibly well with their voices and turn it into a solo mess of random sounds from low and high ranges that they do just because they can. The stegadon is firmly in the middle much like the Wraithknight... not necessarily good or bad.

Some of the kits they're putting out are overdetailed, but I still like how they generally look. They're just a massive pain in the ass to paint at the end of the day, since there's always another texture, material, or doodad hiding somewhere. The DV Terminators are some of the most complex models I've ever painted given the sheer number of different baubles on them. That being said, I think they look great now, but I kind of resented that when I was working on them.

The new Eldar release has me very pleased though. There's no unnecessary detail, no random crap glued left and right, and everything looks very clean and cohesive. The Wraithknight, massive as it is, doesn't look overburdened by detail, and the Wraithguard look excellent.

While I do find there to be entirely too much detail on a number of models GW's been putting out, I have to say I really like how they look painted up. That's my closing thought.

If you want a nice kit, put the skaven doomwheel together.
Just ignore the steps between 1 and 30 because if done like that, part of it is actually backwards.
Not sure if they have fixed this yet.

 -Loki- wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
It makes me worried for Tyranids next release though, because the strength of the Tyranid line has been their willingness to stick to certain design decisions.

And when they deviated from that design decision (a number of 3rd Ed units), Jes Goodwin beat them about the head with a stick and retook control of the Tyranids, bringing consistency to the line and peace to the galaxy.

Now I’m afraid we’re going to get unwanted and unnecessary ‘big’ units in the next Codex with Cruddacian names like Slaughterfex and Brutalthrope and other such nonsense, all tied to beasts that ignore Jes’ hard-coded Tyranid racial aesthetic.

I'd dig two more large units - a Dactylis and Haruspex redesign in a dual kit. That's about it though. I'd love it dearly if they renamed the Tyrannofex to Exocrine and the Tervigon to Malefactor as well.

Those two large units and renames would fill out what we had in Epic short of biotitans.

Yeah, they've mostly stayed away from using the Epic names for anything other than Apoc. IIRC, the inimitable Moloch said he encouraged them to call the model in question an Exocrine, but it was a no go. It seems like there's some sort of directive to keep those lines separate? I could come up with possible reasons, but they'd just be wild guesses. *shrug* I guess since it's an Apoc model, the new Khorne thing might actually be named a Death Dealer.

Edit: A-ha. I thought I remembered him saying that.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1020/421948.page#3946611

Shame they moved away from the epic models though with nids.
Only big critters that actually looks like they used to are the Hierodule harridan.

Hierophant and Hierodule were the same design, yet the 1st stayed as it was, and the second got changed into having normal legs, and a whole re-shape.

I think the issue is the push to try to release all new big centerpiece models to differentiate their products from other companies. Bascially, they're saying "our games are better than their games because we have giant plastic models and fliers and they don't." Maybe GW is starting to realize that they have competition, and rather than trying to do better, they're just trying to go bigger.

They can only redo the various troops and vehicles so many times, leaving them with trying to make something new to get attention for a new release.

GW models have always been overly "busy" with extra stuff and detail. This goes all the way back to the mid 80s. Compare gw figs with figs from ral partha at the same time and you can see that there was a real difference in design aesthetic.

 gorgon wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
It makes me worried for Tyranids next release though, because the strength of the Tyranid line has been their willingness to stick to certain design decisions.

And when they deviated from that design decision (a number of 3rd Ed units), Jes Goodwin beat them about the head with a stick and retook control of the Tyranids, bringing consistency to the line and peace to the galaxy.

Now I’m afraid we’re going to get unwanted and unnecessary ‘big’ units in the next Codex with Cruddacian names like Slaughterfex and Brutalthrope and other such nonsense, all tied to beasts that ignore Jes’ hard-coded Tyranid racial aesthetic.

I'd dig two more large units - a Dactylis and Haruspex redesign in a dual kit. That's about it though. I'd love it dearly if they renamed the Tyrannofex to Exocrine and the Tervigon to Malefactor as well.

Those two large units and renames would fill out what we had in Epic short of biotitans.

Yeah, they've mostly stayed away from using the Epic names for anything other than Apoc. IIRC, the inimitable Moloch said he encouraged them to call the model in question an Exocrine, but it was a no go. It seems like there's some sort of directive to keep those lines separate? I could come up with possible reasons, but they'd just be wild guesses. *shrug* I guess since it's an Apoc model, the new Khorne thing might actually be named a Death Dealer.

Edit: A-ha. I thought I remembered him saying that.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1020/421948.page#3946611

That's rather disappointing, and also odd. If they were averse to using Epic named units, they wouldn't have grabbed the Trygon from Forgeworld, and just run with Mawloc and a different pair of units. It just seems really like Cruddace just wanted to leave his own mark on the Tyranids. Considering his very obvious dislike for the army, it's kind of expected his mark would be terrible.

Also, the Khorne thing is a Lord of Battles, not a Death Dealer.

Is that name confirmed?

And the reason Exocrine got shot down may have been as simple as FW wanting to preserve the ability to do an Exocrine model at some point, and GW management being fine with that. Note that the Trygon was a very different case in that GW decided they were going to port that over from FW (the plastic model has key differences beyond just the material, but the designs are still very close). I'm just suggesting that there are internal discussions going on about naming and for whatever reason they seem to lean toward keeping Epic names out of regular 40K. I don't think it's about GW or certain designers trying to stomp on people's fun.

 warboss wrote:

 sourclams wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
More detail is NOT better detail.

This appears to be the big difference between GW design philosophy and Everybody Else.

That, and the idea that flying dragon airplane could ever be a good thing.

Agreed... although from the pics Ailaros presented, I'd have to switch which ones are bad and which are good. I find the CSM captain to be a good example of tasteful detail whereas that flying undead chariot thing is a garish assault on my eyes that would have looked a hell of alot better without the flying wispy flamey things. It reminds me of the R&B singers that turn a normal song that they could sing incredibly well with their voices and turn it into a solo mess of random sounds from low and high ranges that they do just because they can. The stegadon is firmly in the middle much like the Wraithknight... not necessarily good or bad.

x2

the coven throne has to be one of the dumbest things ive ever seen. it looks like they just took off to start delivering presents. Straight out of a disney movie only with more skulls.
Even without the smoke its still dumb.

Ever play DnD? death knights, liches, demi liches, dracolich, revenants, skeleton warriors. Out of all the awesome stuff they could have made they went with santa's slay?

Even a redone nagash or black coach would have been better. The coach atleast has somewhat of a nice theme and atmosphere of dread about it. What happened to wraiths on foot? The undead range in the mid 90s was alot better, i dont see much improvement.

The DV CSM are some of the best models GW has released recently. The subsequent CSM, DA & Daemons releases were all inferior and mostly disappointing.

If they made a multipart plastic kits of these I would buy crate loads.



I actually think it might be the new technology that GW are struggling to get to grips with. It might lend itself well to Necrons/Tau, but probably not the Organic/techno designs of Chaos...

As shown by community conversions, they aren't far off.



Looking forward to seeing proper pictures of this new Khorne Daemon engine, they've always improved the looks of models by a significant amount.

That's a unique forgefiend conversion if I've ever seen one. Where's that from?

It's a guy called Rumplemaster - Link to his blog http://rumplification.blogspot.co.uk

 Medium of Death wrote:
The DV CSM are some of the best models GW has released recently. The subsequent CSM, DA & Daemons releases were all inferior and mostly disappointing.

If they made a multipart plastic kits of these I would buy crate loads.



I actually think it might be the new technology that GW are struggling to get to grips with. It might lend itself well to Necrons/Tau, but probably not the Organic/techno designs of Chaos...

As shown by community conversions, they aren't far off.



Looking forward to seeing proper pictures of this new Khorne Daemon engine, they've always improved the looks of models by a significant amount.

they're not bad. too busy though. a crate of those would only take you half a decade to paint if you hold yourself to any kind of standard.

Well, I'm impressed and pleased with this shift. The Forgefiend model was a pure joy to build. It was easy to assemble, loaded with detail and options, easily magnetizable and customizable, a joy to paint and looks amazing on the battlefield.

The Wraithknight model, I just want one! I don't necessarily want to start an Eldar army. It's just an amazing looking kit that I will buy solely for the enjoyment of painting it. Same with the new Eldar aircraft, really cool looking sci fi kits.

I applaud them for making such cool models, and all in plastic. They've upped their game and I like it.

kb305 wrote:

they're not bad. too busy though. a crate of those would only take you half a decade to paint if you hold yourself to any kind of standard.

This is a difficulty as well. When detail is as 'busy' as some of these models are, it's just more opportunity for a reasonable time spent painting to look like sloppy crap.

 sourclams wrote:

kb305 wrote:

they're not bad. too busy though. a crate of those would only take you half a decade to paint if you hold yourself to any kind of standard.

This is a difficulty as well. When detail is as 'busy' as some of these models are, it's just more opportunity for a reasonable time spent painting to look like sloppy crap.

Ok, not a flame against you guys particularly, but if they went the opposite route and made middle of the road levels of detail, or even minimalistic models with large panels to paint, we'd have another thread with people complaining the models are too basic and boring. Right?