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 Ustis wrote:
Sorry to interrupt, but when you say chaos do you mean daemons or CSM? I know a new daemon engine is to be released which causes me to suspect the latter would be the case.

Well, that and the fact that Daemons is fine and CSM is... NOT then I'd suspect (and hope) the latter as well.

Of course, GW logic seems to be a fickle thing. CSM players still have reparations to pay for the 3.5 Edition Codex, apparently

I wouldn't have any issues with the Helbrute if it had got entirely new rules as a distinct entry in the list of units available, while leaving a proper Chaos Dreadnought on his own.

The Dinobots and the Heldrake, while a bit derpy looking, are not that bad in my opinion. Hardly great models and just too expensive for my taste, but knowing GW, they could have been worse.

In any case, as long as this thread goes, it doesn't really matter. It's more or less accepted that Tau will be dropping around October (can't remember if Sad Panda had said "october" or merely "autumn"). After that it's up to anyone's guess. In all honestly I don't think we'll be seeing anything for Chaos until 2016. People need to start accepting that Khorne Daemonkin was merely an excuse to sell the new Bloodthirster kit to 40k players, and a new Daemonkin codex for a different god will only see the light if a new great daemon model is released first. When you see actual pictures of a new plastic Lord of Change kit, then you may believe a Tzeencht Daemonkin book may indeed be coming.

I think the Khorne Daemonkin codex is actually bad news for CSM players on the long run. If they keep the thrend and begin releasing Daemonkin codeci for the other gods, the main currently atrocious CSM codex will be likely left outdated for a very long, long time. If not... a new CSM codex with proper updates and points cost fixes could leave the Khorne Daemonkin completely outdated, and the people who bought it will probably feel scammed.

Not as bad as the poor sods who actually went and collected full armies for the Storm of Chaos Fantasy campaign back in 2004, but in a similar way.

Call it nostalgia I guess. I have had chaos since 2nd edition before all the goofy crap was added. You could buy post-heresy equipment at 150% of the price the regular marines got it to represent them salvaging it from the battlefield, including storm shields. They had plenty of flavor when they were the chaos legions, swarms of axe wielding berserkers, Noise marines perched in a building raining down sonic fire, daemons running along side the marines. They were simply cool, evil looking marines. What few aircraft they had fit the aesthetic of evil looking planes. Legion rules were the right way to go. I just think the dinobot route starting from the original defiler when it was supposed to be a super rare daemon engine was a silly way to go(according to the fluff at the time, barely a dozen were made and not all legions got them, and those that did were as gifts from Abbaddon). They should have went with more evil vehicles diverging from the original ones they had. I like more uniform evil cool look than the derpiness we have now, especially that ridiculous new dreadnought model. I would like to know what guy got drunk at work, threw up and thought it would make a cool model.

 Korinov wrote:
I wouldn't have any issues with the Helbrute if it had got entirely new rules as a distinct entry in the list of units available, while leaving a proper Chaos Dreadnought on his own.

The Dinobots and the Heldrake, while a bit derpy looking, are not that bad in my opinion. Hardly great models and just too expensive for my taste, but knowing GW, they could have been worse.

If you get a copy of the Imperial Armour 13 from Forge World you can have helbrutes and Ferrum Infernus dreadnoughts in your CSM armies at the same time. They also add contemptors and decimators into the mix as well. Forge world still makes dreadnoughts for chaos, along with contemptors and decimators and the models are nice and highly detailed as most FW models. Also with price increases on the plastic side they are not overly expensive either. I've got 4 dreads from forge world (2 nurgle, 1 slaanesh noise dread and a world eater's dread), 3 contemptors and 2 decimators in my CSM armies.

Yeah the 'fiends' are stupidly expensive as is anything coming out of GW these days. A lack of focus and power and continued underpowered and overcosted units like possessed, useless crap like mutilators and so on just leave the codex in the dust. Of course the Tau sooooooooo need an update to bring them back up in the favored status much more immediately than chaos space marines do. After all during the days of Tau-dar their sales were really high, but suddenly aren't anymore.

Huge influx of Tau rumors. Allegedly looking at a big release (possibly Tau) on the 12th of September and the Tau Empire Codex on the 19th. So far it looks highly likely a new Crisis Suit Commander kit is on the way.

This is likely going to be one huge update. I got a personal feeling it's going to be larger than any other 7th release.

Imperial and Space Marine players should get to your ships and prepare for the worst.

You see those giant four-legged troop transports?
Yeah, they are Monstrous Creatures.

With Str-D guns.

No, they're perfectly balanced. You get one free with every Fire Warrior cadre.

 Selym wrote:
You see those giant four-legged troop transports?
Yeah, they are Monstrous Creatures.

With Str-D guns.

No, they're perfectly balanced. You get one free with every Fire Warrior cadre.

Done deal, but I want them in Zamesi Desert and Xv-88.

Ill take three
Yeah, as a person waiting on the Tau codex after inheriting a rather large army I am looking forward to the book and to see what releases I will actually need to buy if any.

That said, as there almost always is, there are armies that need updates more. Thankfully for my "chaos" army, I have 30k rules to properly represent them, but would love to actually be able to run them as chaos at some point. Some models are gorgeous like the chaos terminators and those chosen marines they released in that box set and I would love to have reason to use them. I had a full Atramentar Night Lords army using the last SW codex allowing for a full termy army. Was it great? Naw, but it sure was fun. SOOOO wish I didn't sell it off as I could easily have used it in 30k.

Col. Dash wrote:Call it nostalgia I guess. I have had chaos since 2nd edition before all the goofy crap was added. You could buy post-heresy equipment at 150% of the price the regular marines got it to represent them salvaging it from the battlefield, including storm shields. They had plenty of flavor when they were the chaos legions, swarms of axe wielding berserkers, Noise marines perched in a building raining down sonic fire, daemons running along side the marines. They were simply cool, evil looking marines. What few aircraft they had fit the aesthetic of evil looking planes. Legion rules were the right way to go. I just think the dinobot route starting from the original defiler when it was supposed to be a super rare daemon engine was a silly way to go(according to the fluff at the time, barely a dozen were made and not all legions got them, and those that did were as gifts from Abbaddon). They should have went with more evil vehicles diverging from the original ones they had. I like more uniform evil cool look than the derpiness we have now, especially that ridiculous new dreadnought model. I would like to know what guy got drunk at work, threw up and thought it would make a cool model.

Oh, I can certainly agree with this. And I agree the new Helbrute looks silly, I even prefer the old metal model even if it was a bit silly looking itself.

Skriker wrote:If you get a copy of the Imperial Armour 13 from Forge World you can have helbrutes and Ferrum Infernus dreadnoughts in your CSM armies at the same time. They also add contemptors and decimators into the mix as well. Forge world still makes dreadnoughts for chaos, along with contemptors and decimators and the models are nice and highly detailed as most FW models. Also with price increases on the plastic side they are not overly expensive either. I've got 4 dreads from forge world (2 nurgle, 1 slaanesh noise dread and a world eater's dread), 3 contemptors and 2 decimators in my CSM armies.

Yeah the 'fiends' are stupidly expensive as is anything coming out of GW these days. A lack of focus and power and continued underpowered and overcosted units like possessed, useless crap like mutilators and so on just leave the codex in the dust. Of course the Tau sooooooooo need an update to bring them back up in the favored status much more immediately than chaos space marines do. After all during the days of Tau-dar their sales were really high, but suddenly aren't anymore.

My CSM warband is meant to represent a Malal-aligned elite bunch of crazy veterans, so no "new" toys. I actually prefer fielding a dreadnought with two powerfists before buying a single dinobot, even if the maulerfiend beats him heads down in terms of competitive effectiveness (twice as fast, ignores difficult terrain, has either cutters or tendrils, daemon and IWND for 25 points lol). As for the FW dreadnoughts, I already own the world eaters one, although I redesigned it a bit to suit the looks of my warband, plus a mk IV ironclad dreadnought which I'm planning to "chaosify" a bit. I also have a decimator, plus the old GW metal chaos dreadnought model I'm yet to paint (got it dirt cheap from eBay).

To be honest I actually don't know if I want GW to update the CSM codex any soon. If it were done in the spirit of the "first wave" 7th edition codeci, I guess I could stomach it (points cost readjustments, one or two new things and that's it). But now? I even get the feeling they've been left so behind in the updating queue becase GW doesn't even know what to do with them anymore. After the glorious days of the 3.5 codex, CSM had to endure two entire editions of pure blandness and then when they finally got the update in 6th they were stuck with a mostly outdated codex just fitted with an auto-play new toy - the heldrake.

With the one and only exception of the 3.5 codex, every single update CSM have received in the last 15 years has always been for the worse.

 Ustis wrote:
That's a shame, can only hope then. Thanks for the reply nonetheless.

You think CSM is the ugliest model range? Really?

Ugly in the sense that it's the oldest model line currently, and has aged by far the poorest of all the in-store available armies... Hell, the basic Chaos Marine kit is getting so old that half the detail those models do have doesn't even mold properly anymore!
Add to this that with the sole exception of the Raptor/Warptalon kit, not a single one of our infantry kits comes with more than 50% of their possible upgrade options... It's absolutely impossible for example to build anything remotely playable with our Terminator kit, as you get exactly 1 Combi-Flamer/Combi-Melta per box. (the Combi-Plasma is entirely missing btw.) There's not a single Lightning claw, and you actually get only 3 Combi-Bolters, meaning you can't even assemble a basic generic squad!!

Our non-vehicle kits are the absolute worst in the game for actually building viable units. Tactical Marines for example at least get a Missle launcher instead of a dumb Heavy bolter, as well as now coming with all the possible Combi-weapon options. Chaos Marines don't even have a single Combi-weapon available for PA models for feth's sake!

We literally need an entire range-wide re-do of every single one of our infantry kits, with the lone exceptions being the new Raptors/Warptalons and the Possessed kit. Every other kit ranges from barely functional to useless garbage.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Ustis wrote:
That's a shame, can only hope then. Thanks for the reply nonetheless.

You think CSM is the ugliest model range? Really?

Ugly in the sense that it's the oldest model line currently, and has aged by far the poorest of all the in-store available armies... Hell, the basic Chaos Marine kit is getting so old that half the detail those models do have doesn't even mold properly anymore!
Add to this that with the sole exception of the Raptor/Warptalon kit, not a single one of our infantry kits comes with more than 50% of their possible upgrade options... It's absolutely impossible for example to build anything remotely playable with our Terminator kit, as you get exactly 1 Combi-Flamer/Combi-Melta per box. (the Combi-Plasma is entirely missing btw.) There's not a single Lightning claw, and you actually get only 3 Combi-Bolters, meaning you can't even assemble a basic generic squad!!

Our non-vehicle kits are the absolute worst in the game for actually building viable units. Tactical Marines for example at least get a Missle launcher instead of a dumb Heavy bolter, as well as now coming with all the possible Combi-weapon options. Chaos Marines don't even have a single Combi-weapon available for PA models for feth's sake!

We literally need an entire range-wide re-do of every single one of our infantry kits, with the lone exceptions being the new Raptors/Warptalons and the Possessed kit. Every other kit ranges from barely functional to useless garbage.

Exalted.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Ustis wrote:
That's a shame, can only hope then. Thanks for the reply nonetheless.

You think CSM is the ugliest model range? Really?

Ugly in the sense that it's the oldest model line currently, and has aged by far the poorest of all the in-store available armies... Hell, the basic Chaos Marine kit is getting so old that half the detail those models do have doesn't even mold properly anymore!
Add to this that with the sole exception of the Raptor/Warptalon kit, not a single one of our infantry kits comes with more than 50% of their possible upgrade options... It's absolutely impossible for example to build anything remotely playable with our Terminator kit, as you get exactly 1 Combi-Flamer/Combi-Melta per box. (the Combi-Plasma is entirely missing btw.) There's not a single Lightning claw, and you actually get only 3 Combi-Bolters, meaning you can't even assemble a basic generic squad!!

Our non-vehicle kits are the absolute worst in the game for actually building viable units. Tactical Marines for example at least get a Missle launcher instead of a dumb Heavy bolter, as well as now coming with all the possible Combi-weapon options. Chaos Marines don't even have a single Combi-weapon available for PA models for feth's sake!

We literally need an entire range-wide re-do of every single one of our infantry kits, with the lone exceptions being the new Raptors/Warptalons and the Possessed kit. Every other kit ranges from barely functional to useless garbage.

I thought it was the aesthetics you were at odds with, but you raise a good point.

Just out of curiosity, what's wrong with the "dino bots"?

 Ustis wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Ustis wrote:
That's a shame, can only hope then. Thanks for the reply nonetheless.

You think CSM is the ugliest model range? Really?

Ugly in the sense that it's the oldest model line currently, and has aged by far the poorest of all the in-store available armies... Hell, the basic Chaos Marine kit is getting so old that half the detail those models do have doesn't even mold properly anymore!
Add to this that with the sole exception of the Raptor/Warptalon kit, not a single one of our infantry kits comes with more than 50% of their possible upgrade options... It's absolutely impossible for example to build anything remotely playable with our Terminator kit, as you get exactly 1 Combi-Flamer/Combi-Melta per box. (the Combi-Plasma is entirely missing btw.) There's not a single Lightning claw, and you actually get only 3 Combi-Bolters, meaning you can't even assemble a basic generic squad!!

Our non-vehicle kits are the absolute worst in the game for actually building viable units. Tactical Marines for example at least get a Missle launcher instead of a dumb Heavy bolter, as well as now coming with all the possible Combi-weapon options. Chaos Marines don't even have a single Combi-weapon available for PA models for feth's sake!

We literally need an entire range-wide re-do of every single one of our infantry kits, with the lone exceptions being the new Raptors/Warptalons and the Possessed kit. Every other kit ranges from barely functional to useless garbage.

I thought it was the aesthetics you were at odds with, but you raise a good point.

Just out of curiosity, what's wrong with the "dino bots"?

I personally don't have any problems with the so-called Dinobots... The only real problems our vehicle kits currently face actually is that while the Imperial scumbags have routinely received all kinds of varients, our Rhino & Land Raider haven't seen any changes/improvement in almost 20 years!
If Loyalists get highly adaptable Razorbacks to synergise with Tacticals/Sterns, then our Rhino needs something to give us a boost to our more assault oriented play styles... Likewise, we need a new, 'Chaos only' variant to our Land Raider, as we're currently stuck with the most garbage loadout available.

Otherwise, our vehicle options are the one thing that's mostly fine with our model line! (my only other wish would be for a new 'Chaos upgrade frame' to update & replace the old '97 spiky frame)

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Ustis wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Ustis wrote:
That's a shame, can only hope then. Thanks for the reply nonetheless.

You think CSM is the ugliest model range? Really?

Ugly in the sense that it's the oldest model line currently, and has aged by far the poorest of all the in-store available armies... Hell, the basic Chaos Marine kit is getting so old that half the detail those models do have doesn't even mold properly anymore!
Add to this that with the sole exception of the Raptor/Warptalon kit, not a single one of our infantry kits comes with more than 50% of their possible upgrade options... It's absolutely impossible for example to build anything remotely playable with our Terminator kit, as you get exactly 1 Combi-Flamer/Combi-Melta per box. (the Combi-Plasma is entirely missing btw.) There's not a single Lightning claw, and you actually get only 3 Combi-Bolters, meaning you can't even assemble a basic generic squad!!

Our non-vehicle kits are the absolute worst in the game for actually building viable units. Tactical Marines for example at least get a Missle launcher instead of a dumb Heavy bolter, as well as now coming with all the possible Combi-weapon options. Chaos Marines don't even have a single Combi-weapon available for PA models for feth's sake!

We literally need an entire range-wide re-do of every single one of our infantry kits, with the lone exceptions being the new Raptors/Warptalons and the Possessed kit. Every other kit ranges from barely functional to useless garbage.

I thought it was the aesthetics you were at odds with, but you raise a good point.

Just out of curiosity, what's wrong with the "dino bots"?

I personally don't have any problems with the so-called Dinobots... The only real problems our vehicle kits currently face actually is that while the Imperial scumbags have routinely received all kinds of varients, our Rhino & Land Raider haven't seen any changes/improvement in almost 20 years!
If Loyalists get highly adaptable Razorbacks to synergise with Tacticals/Sterns, then our Rhino needs something to give us a boost to our more assault oriented play styles... Likewise, we need a new, 'Chaos only' variant to our Land Raider, as we're currently stuck with the most garbage loadout available.

Otherwise, our vehicle options are the one thing that's mostly fine with our model line! (my only other wish would be for a new 'Chaos upgrade frame' to update & replace the old '97 spiky frame)

True say.

If loyalists get to take razorbacks with twin-linked plasma guns and lascannons, as well as the land raider crusader/redeemer, the least that can be done for such an assault orientated army as CSM would be to grant chaos rhinos and land raiders the assault vehicle rule.

The problem with the whole "assault vehicle" issue is that the "assault vehicle" rule should not exist. Units should have the "assault specialist" rule, enabling them to disembark and charge in the same turn, not transports. Khorne Berzerkers and veteran Chaos Marines armed with bolt pistol + close combat weapon should be able to assault from any vehicle.

But heh, give me a rhino upgrade where I pay 10 points and give away the combi-bolter in exchange of the assault vehicle rule, and I suppose I won't complain.

 Korinov wrote:
The problem with the whole "assault vehicle" issue is that the "assault vehicle" rule should not exist. Units should have the "assault specialist" rule, enabling them to disembark and charge in the same turn, not transports. Khorne Berzerkers and veteran Chaos Marines armed with bolt pistol + close combat weapon should be able to assault from any vehicle.

But heh, give me a rhino upgrade where I pay 10 points and give away the combi-bolter in exchange of the assault vehicle rule, and I suppose I won't complain.

That's a more logical rules proposition, but with the same in-game outcome.

 Korinov wrote:
The problem with the whole "assault vehicle" issue is that the "assault vehicle" rule should not exist. Units should have the "assault specialist" rule, enabling them to disembark and charge in the same turn, not transports. Khorne Berzerkers and veteran Chaos Marines armed with bolt pistol + close combat weapon should be able to assault from any vehicle.

But heh, give me a rhino upgrade where I pay 10 points and give away the combi-bolter in exchange of the assault vehicle rule, and I suppose I won't complain.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

An "assault vehicle" that anyone can assault with can co-exist with "assault specialists" who can assault out of anything.

Assaulting out a Rhino would be a logistical nightmare. Because of the benches you can squeeze maybe 2 Marines out the rear and 1 from each side door. The reason the Landraider is an Assault Vehicle is that the ramp is huge and faces toward the enemy.

As a Chaos Techmarine with no supplies to work with, I'd up armor the hell out of the ramp and have them drive it backwards. Maybe raise the driver's compartment slightly so it looks out over the body of the tank. Boom, suddenly my Rhinos are vomiting the warriors of Chaos right into those loyalists.

That sounds like an excellent idea.

Assaulting out a Rhino would be a logistical nightmare. Because of the benches you can squeeze maybe 2 Marines out the rear and 1 from each side door. The reason the Landraider is an Assault Vehicle is that the ramp is huge and faces toward the enemy.

Cute... Gameplay dicated by fluff. It should be Gameplay inspired by fluff guys, inspired...

While we're wishlisting for Chaos: Plastic Dreadclaw drop pods. If nothing else, that will make me spend money. I'll take 4 tomorrow.

Boom. A reasonably priced assault vehicle for possessed, berzerkers, chosen, etc...

In 2nd edition you could take Imperial equipment. It made sense that the chaos marines were scavenging the battlefield and stealing Imperial equipment. You had to pay 50% more in points but it was worth it in small amounts. I had a commander with a daemon weapon, terminator armor, displacer field, and combat drugs, mark of Nurgle, level 4 sorcerer. Think he was 365 points. He was escorted by 5 Khorne terminators in post heresy terminator armor with twin lightning claws, they were nasty in close combat. Before the end of 2nd/3rd I started fielding a similar squad as up armored "combat vets" for my Night Lords with a Khorne Lord in post heresy terminator armor with thunder hammer and storm shield. Also a beat stick squad.

If I remember right, the Red Corsair could take units from the Marine codex with no penalty but they had to be properly marked with whatever chapter they were from with a big red X through the chapter heraldry.

Either way, the precedence is there for chaos to be stealing from regular marines allowing for anything Imperial has, so does chaos which makes absolute sense.

 Selym wrote:
You see those giant four-legged troop transports?
Yeah, they are Monstrous Creatures.

With Str-D guns.

No, they're perfectly balanced. You get one free with every Fire Warrior cadre.

You know, if a power sword hit on a MC allowed you to place a melta bomb inside of it causing ID, I'm pretty sure you could get power-sword using factions on board.

niv-mizzet wrote:
I haven't seen anything age of sigmar related sell from our local store in a month. I don't know about other places, but 'round here, it was a huge flop and we're waiting for more 40k releases.

A few guys bought AOS stuff to convert in to Space Marines or Khorne Beserkers. most guys playing it don't have to buy a single model.