Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Avatar 720 wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:
You didn't answer my question. Not even close.

yes I did, I don't care whether this comic is good or bad to others, it is not for me which also tells me that if Marvel is willing to do this what else will they do? I would rather not find out and hence my Boycott of all things Marvel. to answer your question, this is my choice and my right. as to not being a flop something tells me this will be cancelled real soon since Marvel is already taking heat from this.

My question concerned whether you would re-sub if the comic went against current opinion and actually proved popular. You replied with something about it being your choice to boycott, which wasn't what I questioned.

That said, now you've clarified a bit, would I be right in assuming that until Marvel produces nothing but content you personally agree with, you will not patronise them in any form?

If that is the case, then why post about it on a public forum? Especially since you've stated your intent isn't to convince anyone else to follow in your footsteps. Dakka has so many contradicting opinions on just about everything that for everyone you find who shares your idea of ideal content, there will be many more who don't, may themselves boycott if something they didn't like but you did was published, and you would probably feel about as puzzled by their reaction as I am about people who are so vehemently against this new comic on the grounds that they simply don't like the implications.

then let them boycott that is their right to do so, its not a matter of my opinion but what many of us were raised believing, Cap has always been the good the guy, the American boyscout, he is america, he was our hopes and expectations by being our American Symbol of purity and justice and this new writer has essentially said America is evil, plain and simple.

That's an issue of personal belief and identification, not of Marvel. If you believe Captain America is America, more power to you, but in the course of acknowledging other's rights, also acknowledge that that opinion isn't shared by everyone, and that Captain America is a globally-known name. He isn't America's, he's everyone's, and will obviously mean something different to others.

Personally, my belief is that Captain America is just a fictional superhero created purely for entertainment purposes. He doesn't represent anything more sophisticated than the ideals of a world that in some iterations is based on our own, but at the end of the day is still fictional.

The only way I could dislike Marvel for this is if they just made a bad comic book, and I just wouldn't buy it.

At the end of the day, Marvel create comics, and leave the interpretation of its content up to the reader. I don't blame them for their topics, I blame people who think that because they don't personally like it, it shouldn't exist.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
That's an issue of personal belief and identification, not of Marvel. If you believe Captain America is America, more power to you, but in the course of acknowledging other's rights, also acknowledge that that opinion isn't shared by everyone, and that Captain America is a globally-known name. He isn't America's, he's everyone's, and will obviously mean something different to others.

Personally, my belief is that Captain America is just a fictional superhero created purely for entertainment purposes. He doesn't represent anything more sophisticated than the ideals of a world that in some iterations is based on our own, but at the end of the day is still fictional.

The only way I could dislike Marvel for this is if they just made a bad comic book, and I just wouldn't buy it.

At the end of the day, Marvel create comics, and leave the interpretation of its content up to the reader. I don't blame them for their topics, I blame people who think that because they don't personally like it, it shouldn't exist.

you should read the history of Captain America and his creation and why, then you will realize why the hullabaloo about this.

Asterios wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:
That's an issue of personal belief and identification, not of Marvel. If you believe Captain America is America, more power to you, but in the course of acknowledging other's rights, also acknowledge that that opinion isn't shared by everyone, and that Captain America is a globally-known name. He isn't America's, he's everyone's, and will obviously mean something different to others.

Personally, my belief is that Captain America is just a fictional superhero created purely for entertainment purposes. He doesn't represent anything more sophisticated than the ideals of a world that in some iterations is based on our own, but at the end of the day is still fictional.

The only way I could dislike Marvel for this is if they just made a bad comic book, and I just wouldn't buy it.

At the end of the day, Marvel create comics, and leave the interpretation of its content up to the reader. I don't blame them for their topics, I blame people who think that because they don't personally like it, it shouldn't exist.

you should read the history of Captain America and his creation and why, then you will realize why the hullabaloo about this.

So you don't accept that other people may hold differing, but equally valid, opinions on fictional creations? That's the impression I get from essentially being told 'you just don't get it'. You seem to believe that the way you view this is the only way--evidenced by simply telling me to read the lore and I'll be enlightened.

People see different things in all creative forms. There is no one absolute truth. The Hobbit does not mean X and X alone. The Mona Lisa doesn't evoke Y emotion to the exclusion of all else, and if you just look at it closer you'll realise why.

The idea that people who don't share your beliefs and opinions are simply ignorant is just a lazy way of dismissing dissent.

 Avatar 720 wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:
That's an issue of personal belief and identification, not of Marvel. If you believe Captain America is America, more power to you, but in the course of acknowledging other's rights, also acknowledge that that opinion isn't shared by everyone, and that Captain America is a globally-known name. He isn't America's, he's everyone's, and will obviously mean something different to others.

Personally, my belief is that Captain America is just a fictional superhero created purely for entertainment purposes. He doesn't represent anything more sophisticated than the ideals of a world that in some iterations is based on our own, but at the end of the day is still fictional.

The only way I could dislike Marvel for this is if they just made a bad comic book, and I just wouldn't buy it.

At the end of the day, Marvel create comics, and leave the interpretation of its content up to the reader. I don't blame them for their topics, I blame people who think that because they don't personally like it, it shouldn't exist.

you should read the history of Captain America and his creation and why, then you will realize why the hullabaloo about this.

So you don't accept that other people may hold differing, but equally valid, opinions on fictional creations? That's the impression I get from essentially being told 'you just don't get it'. You seem to believe that the way you view this is the only way--evidenced by simply telling me to read the lore and I'll be enlightened.

People see different things in all creative forms. There is no one absolute truth. The Hobbit does not mean X and X alone. The Mona Lisa doesn't evoke Y emotion to the exclusion of all else, and if you just look at it closer you'll realise why.

The idea that people who don't share your beliefs and opinions are simply ignorant is just a lazy way of dismissing dissent.

Did I say they were ignorant? no but I repeat go into the History of Captain America and why he was created. for 76 years one thing has been constant, its like if the sun decided to rise in the west instead of the east.

Yes, you did. You said that I need to read the history of Captain America and then I would understand. The implication there is clearly that I lack some sort of required knowledge and I am, therefore, ignorant.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
Yes, you did. You said that I need to read the history of Captain America and then I would understand. The implication there is clearly that I lack some sort of required knowledge and I am, therefore, ignorant.

No it means you would understand my stance and that of many others, which before you sounded confused why such animosity towards the change.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
So you don't accept that other people may hold differing, but equally valid, opinions on fictional creations?

No, I don't. It's like the idiots who take Grey Knight and Sister of Battle incorruptibility as some kind of challenge. If you write a story about Grey Knights falling to Chaos, you are objectively wrong.

I for one welcome this twist with Captain America and want to see where it leads.

After all in both the Comics and the movies Hydra=/=Nazis.

I barely know anything about the comic book side of Capt. America, but does anyone else expect it just to end up being another plot by bad guys? Either this Steve Rodgers is a clone, or time travel was used to enable some brainwashing, or some such "evil scheme". Which will be undone by his allies, or some sort of inner-demon battle where Steve wrests control back?

I remember people went this crazy back when he was killed.

So Marvel Comics decided to change many characters to minorities and women (female Thor, female Wolverine, Asian Hulk, black Captain America, Muslim Ms. Marvel) then bring back one white hero and make him a villain. That's a good marketing team.

Of course AegisGrimm may also be right that in the end it may be just a way to get some attention.

Even if it is just a stunt the whole thing seems ill considered.

Asterios wrote:
after reading an article today I have decided to Boycott Marvel and anything dealing with Marvel from Comics to movies to TV shows, why you ask, it appears Marvel has made Captain America into a sleeper agent for HYDRA, in essence they have turned Captain America a symbol who stands for all that is right with America into a Nazi, I consider this reprehensible and disrespectful to America and all it stands for.

You remember that time that Captain America died? Yeah, that didn't stick.

You remember that time when Steve lost his powers, became an old man, and Sam took over as Cap? Yeah, that didn't stick.

So let me ask you: D'ya think this Hydra reveal will stick?

There's a saying: Nature abhors a vacuum. For comics it's similar. Comics abhor not having a status quo.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Asterios wrote:
after reading an article today I have decided to Boycott Marvel and anything dealing with Marvel from Comics to movies to TV shows, why you ask, it appears Marvel has made Captain America into a sleeper agent for HYDRA, in essence they have turned Captain America a symbol who stands for all that is right with America into a Nazi, I consider this reprehensible and disrespectful to America and all it stands for.

You remember that time that Captain America died? Yeah, that didn't stick.

You remember that time when Steve lost his powers, became an old man, and Sam took over as Cap? Yeah, that didn't stick.

Remember that time when Cap was a werewolf? That didn't stick (though it should have).

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2016/01/19/i-love-ya-but-youre-strange-the-glorious-debut-of-capwolf/

I'm really not seeing the problem here, it actually sounds like the kind of comic I'd want to follow (I say this as someone who pretty much gave up on Marvel somewhere between AvX and Marvel Now). It's forcing you to question things; if I'd read the issue, and seen that final panel, I'd be counting the days until the next one to work out where it all goes from here.

Closest comparison I can think of is the end of Arrow Series 3 (massive spoilers, don't click if you ever intend to watch it)


Honestly, I think anything to do with Superior Spiderman, or making Jane Foster into the actual Thor*, or writing Reed and Franklin Richards as the gods behind a new multiverse or whatever happened at the end of Secret Wars were much more stupid decisions.

*I've no problem with her wielding Miljnor, using the powers ect, it's just the fact that unlike anyone else who's ever used the hammer, she is actually calling herself Thor, which makes no sense to me.

This happens every few years. I wouldn't worry.
http://marvel.com/universe/Enemy_of_the_State

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I read an article that he was de-aged by the Cosmic Cube made human; someone/something that has spent a lot of time with Red Skull. Cosmic Cube responsible for this? Likely. I'm sure it'll be back to normal at some point...might involve time travel though. I guess those pesky FF or X-Men will have to get involved. They still have a monopoly on time travel, right?

I mean, the Red Skull did literally the exact same thing to Falcon, so that is my current theory as well. RS messing with his backstory via Kobik. (Either that or the standard double-agent play)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Asterios wrote:
after reading an article today I have decided to Boycott Marvel and anything dealing with Marvel from Comics to movies to TV shows, why you ask, it appears Marvel has made Captain America into a sleeper agent for HYDRA, in essence they have turned Captain America a symbol who stands for all that is right with America into a Nazi, I consider this reprehensible and disrespectful to America and all it stands for.

You remember that time that Captain America died? Yeah, that didn't stick.

You remember that time when Steve lost his powers, became an old man, and Sam took over as Cap? Yeah, that didn't stick.

So let me ask you: D'ya think this Hydra reveal will stick?

There's a saying: Nature abhors a vacuum. For comics it's similar. Comics abhor not having a status quo.

I'm still upset that they killed of Peter Parker and Doc Ock took over his brain forever. Doesn't look they're ever going to reverse it either, because the writers and executives have been going on about how Peter Parker is dead and not coming back.

Wait, what do you mean they reversed it at the end of the storyline?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asterios wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I read an article that he was de-aged by the Cosmic Cube made human; someone/something that has spent a lot of time with Red Skull. Cosmic Cube responsible for this? Likely. I'm sure it'll be back to normal at some point...might involve time travel though. I guess those pesky FF or X-Men will have to get involved. They still have a monopoly on time travel, right?

That's my main issue with the complaints: we don't know anything. There's been no plot revealed, no characters have had a chance to state their reasoning or intent, nothing has been established except that Steve uttered two words, and they were "Hail Hydra". Thousands of people have already managed to assume that makes him literally Hitler.

go look some more, the writers are already showing how he was an agent of Hydra before and how all his actions were nothing more then to aide Hydra. trust me if this was just because he said "Hail Hydra" at the end of a comic book then that would be nothing since he could be being sarcastic, go read the interviews, Marvel has come out saying he was a Hydra Sleeper Agent.

heres a link to the article:

http://time.com/4347224/captain-america-hydra-agent-marvel-tom-brevoort/

Obviously. I mean, now is the prefect time to reveal that he was a hydra agent, not any of those times that he had Cosmic Cubes or was wielding the Infinity Gauntlet.

Seriously. The guy just had his reality rewritten by a sentient cosmic cube. A sentient Cosmic Cube to whom the Red Skull had been presenting as an authority figure (in disguise). It is not the slightest bit of a stretch to think that maybe some sort of crimson-faced-mischief has gone on in the process of said reality-warping.

I'm guessing this has knob-all to do with some shoddy "Cap is a sleeper agent" storyline, and much more with the whole "I don't like RL politics and ZOMG MARVEL STOP MAKING FUN OF GLORIOUS LEADER TRUMP" angle.

Lots of things done in comics don't have much staying power, especially death, but does that mean they should be beyond criticism for the editorial choices they make?

Side note:

Right now I think the big two are striving for "mindblows" over good, solid, patient storytelling. A cinematic influence at work, perhaps? I dunno.

Cap being a decades-long Hydra sleeper agent is simply a dumb premise, no matter where the story leads or how much it "sticks." You don't have to look any farther than other Cap-related characters (Bucky and Sharon) to see fairly shocking retcons that were successful and sensible.

It's certainly a gutsy move considering the inherent conservatism in geekland toward geek material, and especially while their Distinguished Competition's newest event serves as an apology for their universe's darker tone of late. At least on the face of it that is, because the New 52 was never really that dark IMO, and Rebirth's mindblow is ultimately a dark thing involving dark characters (even as the metatext seems to place blame at the feet of those characters' creation and existence).

Anyway back OT, I'll just do what I always do...buy the books I'm enjoying and skip the ones I'm not. *shrug*

 Melissia wrote:
Come to DC. It sucks just as much, but at least DC's version of One More Day isn't such a massive, prominent retcon like OMD was.

Unless you're Superman. And I think Rebirth weaves a tangled web. This probably isn't the place to discuss it.

I remember when Hal Jordan went nuts, then was killed by New Lantern, then cam back as the spectre, then died again, then came back as Young Hal Jordan for a few years, then went back to his own time, now there is some new Hal Jordan Not-Lantern comic.

Weird gak happens.

He was also in jail, serving time for a DUI when Sinestro trained him in Emerald Dawn (or Emerald Dawn II, the Dawning)

I wrote a really inspired, week reasoned and quite frankly awesome post that really articulated my thoughts, examining it from multiple angles.

Then my tablet crashed. So, executive summary time. I understand the need for dreams and drive for sales and wanting to take characters to new places etc.

But, I think comics and stormtroopers are Important with a capital I. They're not just mechanisms for dollars and merchandising. Ultimately they are a modern mythology, morality tales for the modern world. They have a great power and we all know what comes with.

Cap has taught many lessons over the years, many important lessons, for people young and old. To reinterpret those lessons for agenda (even if it is just advertising and sales at the end of the day), I'm not cool with that.

I think that ultimately I really am very much less of an a-hole in would otherwise be and part of the reason for that is because of mini-Compel watching the '92 X-men cartoon.

I'm with Asterios - up to a point.

I'm sure that this will end being some kind of Cosmic Cube/Red Skull/Alternate Universe Melding Shenanigans, and we "don't know everything yet"!

But, I don't like this 'retcon' at all.

At least, not right now.

But then, here we are, talking about Captain America comics from Marvel...so I guess Marvel wins?

if they did this with say Iron Man I would not have a problem in fact could see that happening(and more plausible), but Captain America, no way.

If there is some kind of cosmic cubing/reality warping going on though, this happening to Cap is no less plausible than it happening to anyone else. In fact, if the Red Skull is behind it as it appears, then what greater victory for him than turning his greatest enemy into his slave? It'd be like Vader turning Luke to the Dark Side, or The Joker getting Batman to kill, it's tragic because it undermines the values of the character, but narratively of course they're going to try it.

I get that Cap represents 'American values' or the like to some people, but at the end of the day, he's a fictional character in a narrative, and within that narrative, this makes sense.

Again, I think we need to be careful not to feed geek culture's often childish, braying, caustic attitude toward anything that isn't exactly like what's come before. There are geeks out there that are still hung up on (and truly bothered by) Superman's lack of red underwear, for crissakes.

Retcons done well can be really interesting and even add to a character. Again, Bucky and Sharon are great examples right in Cap's own mythos. The issue is that this particular big reveal is dumb based on what we know so far. It takes very little imagination or effort to take a decades-old character who stands for something, invert it, and then declare *that* was the truth of it ALL ALONG.

"The Joker is revealed to have been an undercover law enforcement agent ALL ALONG!" Dumb, right?

That's not what appears to be happening (from what I've read around the thing, I haven't actually read the issue in question). It doesn't seem to be 'Cap has always been a double agent since his first appearance ever', more 'in this reality, which has probably been restructured by the Red Skull, this version of Cap is a Hydra sleeper agent'. If reality-altering powers are indeed in play this is to all intents and purposes an alternate/false timeline or universe. This is not the Cap that we've read all these years, this is something new and different.

They're not saying 'When Cap joined the Avengers in the 60s, or took a side in Civil War, he was working for Hydra the whole time', at least as far as I can tell on the very limited info we have at present. It's not really a retcon, it's a revelation and a shock but it doesn't really change anything. I'm not going to go back and read some Silver Age Cap comics and thing 'damn, this guy was secretly a Nazi'.

Whether or not it's dumb is of course down to personal preference, but I for one am not in any way offended or put off and will be interested to see how it all pans out... Though as I mentioned before, I'm not exactly keeping up with current Marvel as far as the comics go.

 Paradigm wrote:
That's not what appears to be happening (from what I've read around the thing, I haven't actually read the issue in question). It doesn't seem to be 'Cap has always been a double agent since his first appearance ever', more 'in this reality, which has probably been restructured by the Red Skull, this version of Cap is a Hydra sleeper agent'. If reality-altering powers are indeed in play this is to all intents and purposes an alternate/false timeline or universe. This is not the Cap that we've read all these years, this is something new and different.

They're not saying 'When Cap joined the Avengers in the 60s, or took a side in Civil War, he was working for Hydra the whole time', at least as far as I can tell on the very limited info we have at present. It's not really a retcon, it's a revelation and a shock but it doesn't really change anything. I'm not going to go back and read some Silver Age Cap comics and thing 'damn, this guy was secretly a Nazi'.

Whether or not it's dumb is of course down to personal preference, but I for one am not in any way offended or put off and will be interested to see how it all pans out... Though as I mentioned before, I'm not exactly keeping up with current Marvel as far as the comics go.

Actually Cap's mom was a Hydra Agent and he followed her lead, so yeah now according to Marvel he has always been and will be a Hydra sleeper agent.

And actually this won't work with all the Telepath's he has had contact with someone would have noticed.

Megacorps have successfully mined comics for IP elements that can be reprocessed into profitable mainstream licenses. And suddenly people expect quality? Comics have always had a miserable reputation, which they have mostly earned fair and square. If you think this is dumb and transparently exploitative ... welcome to comics books.

@Asterios: Again, in what appears to be a restructured reality this version of Cap is Hydra, but personally that doesn't prompt me to view any of his previous stuff prior to the seeds of this being sewn (2014 was cited in one of the articles, but I believe this whole Red Skull/Cosmic Cube thing is more recent). The universe has been restructured and reset and blown up and put back together just in the last year with Secret Wars, so who's to say things didn't happen very differently in the new setting?

It's all too nebulous and vague at the moment to pin anything down, but I'm confident this will reach a sensible conclusion and be explained at least somewhat rationally.

 Manchu wrote:
Megacorps have successfully mined comics for IP elements that can be reprocessed into profitable mainstream licenses. And suddenly people expect quality? Comics have always had a miserable reputation, which they have mostly earned fair and square. If you think this is dumb and transparently exploitative ... welcome to comics books.

Really not sure what you're trying to say here. To say 'comics have always had a miserable reputation' and that we shouldn't be surprised when they're not good is like saying 'books are crap' or 'films are unimaginative', it's far too broad to actually mean anything. There are some comics out there that I'm sure are utter crap, but equally there are plenty that are of considerable artistic merit or as well written as any good novel. Dismissing the entire spectrum of comics and suggesting the readers are naive for expecting quality when said quality is frequently delivered just seems needlessly judgemental of a genre and media form with a lot to offer. If I'm misconstruing I apologies, but I just don't see what you're saying here.