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2016/06/03 17:37:09
Subject: I am Boycotting anything and everything to do with Marvel
Kovnik Obama wrote: I guess that's the price to pay when you buy what amounts to a crass propaganda piece hook, line and sinker.
That sounds like a statement based on zero knowledge of Steve Rogers.
Personally I'm tired of having this guy and his Great White Northernist agenda shoved down my throat.
Melissia wrote: I never respected the New 52 Superman myself, but killing him off just destroys opportunities for storytelling. Because if they're going to make Superman in to yet another brooding, whiny superhero, the least they could do is make him fething grow out of it over the course of an interesting story. That way you don't have to do a major retcon, because instead, you have character development.
But DC and Marvel don't like character development. It's too scary.
IMO, the only problem with New 52 Supes was how they handled him -- too many different writers, somewhat different personalities from book to book, and too many storylines involving stuff being done to him rather than him doing stuff. There were some real highpoints for the character during the New 52, but ultimately they abused that poor bastich quite a bit...then killed him.
But "bringing back" the "old" Supes -- and in Superdad form, no less -- was almost certainly influenced by the very loud complaints from geeks about New 52 Supes. Geeks are very conservative and resistant to change. Dating someone other than Lois; a costume that doesn't look like a circus strongman's; and more readiness to take action, especially in the name of social justice...it was all too much for some geeks to bear.
I think Superdad will almost certainly end up as boring (or more) as the character was before the New 52, especially with Jurgens of all people calling shots. Expect lots of pseudo-moralistic lecturing, schmaltzy hugs with Lois and little Supes, and a return to the bland, unmemorable storylines of yesteryear. The red underwear will be next to return...just you wait.
Compel wrote: On another note, I thought New-52 Superman wasn't quite dead due to timey-wimeyness? Wasn't that the idea?
Nope, he's D E D Dead. Looks like he's being replaced with a previous version, the one who was "killed" by Doomsday in the original Death of Superman story.
2016/06/03 17:52:14
Subject: I am Boycotting anything and everything to do with Marvel
Compel wrote: On another note, I thought New-52 Superman wasn't quite dead due to timey-wimeyness? Wasn't that the idea?
Nope, he's D E D Dead. Looks like he's being replaced with a previous version, the one who was "killed" by Doomsday in the original Death of Superman story.
Personally, I think he's "dead for now." There was some weirdness about Wally not being able to see his body in Rebirth #1. And there's the stuff involving Mr. Oz -- who said that neither Superman is what they think they are -- which is very unresolved. But if the big reveal is what I think it is, then Superdad will be the "true" Superman of their world, not New 52 Supes. In that instance, I don't think a resurrection would matter...?
timetowaste85 wrote: And now all those guys who felt proud to be doing honor to the name of captain America in the best way that they can will only feel a serious punch to the gut, as the symbolism has been rocked to the core
I guess that's the price to pay when you buy what amounts to a crass propaganda piece hook, line and sinker.
Next up, fast-food owners commit mass suicide when Ronald McDonald is outed as a communist, and all the hints that pointed toward the terrible truth.
you really have no clue what Captain America stood for and represented.
Umm selling comic books? Or is that not a thing and it was actually a charity ALL ALONG?
Seriously, it's comics. If your brain explodes every time a schlocky writer does something dumb/wrong/ LOLWHUT? with your beloved fictional character, well, let's just say maybe comics aren't for you. Basing a whole life philosophy over a made up drawing and that is shaken when one of its iterations does something you don't like? Whoo- boy! Some serious 1st world and/or mental problems going on there...
And "doing honor to the name of captain America" sounds strangely perverse....
you really are clueless? whatever.
Nice ad hominem. Care to enlighten me by addressing my point? Here, I will make it easy:
Point 1: Comic books have frequently done bizarre/edgy/stupid takes on characters. This includes total reversals, retcons as aliens, hallucinations, devil bargains, etc.
Point 2: Claiming that's one's ethical or moral positions are so fundamentally linked to a fictional character that fundamental changes to that character undermines one's whole belief system is either asinine hyperbole or and indicator of a serious behavioral or mental issue (possibly both).
As way of anecdotal evidence, I know many vets, LEOs, adults, etc. and I have *never* heard one question their beliefs based on a damn comic book.
-James
2016/06/03 23:16:58
Subject: I am Boycotting anything and everything to do with Marvel
Actually, Captain America was created back during WW2 to inspire the troops. He wasn't created just to make money selling comics (of course, that kept the guys funded to keep making more). He was always intended to inspire and be a beacon against Nazi Germany. If you knew anything about the character, you'd know that. The soldiers, and other fans, who know that are offended because to them it looks like that inspiration was all a lie. The beacon was a fake. So try to see the big picture. Is he a comic book character? Yes. But he's also much more than that. I can't believe I'm about to say this, but...viewing Captain America as nothing more than a comic character intent on making money is incredibly juvenile and childish, and you should feel ashamed of yourself if you believe that. If any of you have relatives who fought in WW2, ask them how they'd feel about CA being a hydra (Nazi) agent all along. You might get a cane or wheelchair thrown at you.
Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.
Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind.
2016/06/03 23:43:17
Subject: I am Boycotting anything and everything to do with Marvel
A comic book character can in fact come to mean a great deal more than merely "whatever this month's author wants". Superman is a great example of this. Despite some hiccups, with bad authors making him do things out of character, he stands for not merely beating up the bad guys, not merely being strong enough to win-- any number of characters could do that. No, he stands for doing the right thing, and trying to do it in the right way. Going above and beyond to try to help everyone, even those that hate you.
It's part of the reason why All-Star Superman is so beloved, where All-Star Batman and Robin is derided as garbage. All-Star Superman took what Superman stood for as a concept, and celebrated it ("You are much stronger than you think you are."... one of the most beloved pages in all of comics history). All-Star Batman and Robin took what Batman stood for... and shat on it.
I'm not a huge marvel fan. But it really doesn't take much for me to see that Captain America stands for something very similar, with a bit of a patriotic bent perhaps but even with that he still is about trying to do the right thing the right way, and not just reckless, blind vengeance that is mistaken for justice by so many authors. For many people, comic books were the introduction to concepts of morality that they utilize today, and to see them torn apart by crappy writers is understandably painful.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/06/03 23:51:30
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2016/06/04 00:19:56
Subject: I am Boycotting anything and everything to do with Marvel
Yeah, Superman is a great example of that whole "great responsibility" and 'morality tale' thing. There's one fan comic I know that has helped a lot of people. I'll post the first page and spoiler the rest.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Definitely no tears there, nope. Just hayfever.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/04 00:21:11
2016/06/04 00:27:53
Subject: I am Boycotting anything and everything to do with Marvel
One of my favorite scenes from Captain America was one where teens are chasing down a Muslim-American, shouting insults and threats at him and clearly intending to do harm.
Captain America stands between the group and the victim, and simply stares them down, his glare a look of sheer disappointment that causes the group to disperse, and then he escorts the man home personally Because Captain America isn't YOUR Captain America. He is not blindly loyal to America's leaders, or to some political spectrum, or some identity.
Captain America is loyal to nothing, except the Dream.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2016/06/04 00:31:25
Subject: I am Boycotting anything and everything to do with Marvel
timetowaste85 wrote: And now all those guys who felt proud to be doing honor to the name of captain America in the best way that they can will only feel a serious punch to the gut, as the symbolism has been rocked to the core
I guess that's the price to pay when you buy what amounts to a crass propaganda piece hook, line and sinker.
Next up, fast-food owners commit mass suicide when Ronald McDonald is outed as a communist, and all the hints that pointed toward the terrible truth.
you really have no clue what Captain America stood for and represented.
Umm selling comic books? Or is that not a thing and it was actually a charity ALL ALONG?
Seriously, it's comics. If your brain explodes every time a schlocky writer does something dumb/wrong/ LOLWHUT? with your beloved fictional character, well, let's just say maybe comics aren't for you. Basing a whole life philosophy over a made up drawing and that is shaken when one of its iterations does something you don't like? Whoo- boy! Some serious 1st world and/or mental problems going on there...
And "doing honor to the name of captain America" sounds strangely perverse....
you really are clueless? whatever.
Nice ad hominem. Care to enlighten me by addressing my point? Here, I will make it easy:
Point 1: Comic books have frequently done bizarre/edgy/stupid takes on characters. This includes total reversals, retcons as aliens, hallucinations, devil bargains, etc.
Point 2: Claiming that's one's ethical or moral positions are so fundamentally linked to a fictional character that fundamental changes to that character undermines one's whole belief system is either asinine hyperbole or and indicator of a serious behavioral or mental issue (possibly both).
As way of anecdotal evidence, I know many vets, LEOs, adults, etc. and I have *never* heard one question their beliefs based on a damn comic book.
and I repeat you have no clue.
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
2016/06/04 01:00:40
Subject: I am Boycotting anything and everything to do with Marvel
Kind of reminds me of the first Mission: Impossible film.
Spoiler:
Rather than being a reboot, it's a continuation of the TV show. As such, the lead (Tom Cruise's Ethan Hunt) is a new character, taking the mantle from Jim Phelps, who had been the main character since the original show's second season.
At the end of the film, Phelps - the man who had been our protagonist for 8 seasons - is revealed to have turned traitor, having murdered his own team-mates and sold classified information to criminals, all because he'd grown disillusioned with his work and wanted to retire wealthily.
Contemporary audiences might not have cared, nor even remembered the original series, but this was a pretty big slap in the face for old fans of the show. Phelps's original actor was offered the part for the film, but turned it down because he was so aghast at what the writers had done.
I get that that's more a case of a character doing a very uncharacteristic face-heel turn, rather than turning out to be a baddie all along, but what makes this case even sadder is that there's never going to be a retcon. The film series has supplanted the TV series. Barely anyone even remembers the TV show, so what we see in the first film really is the ending to the TV show's saga.
Then again, it's pretty easy to just dismiss the films as an "alternate" continuity. I'm imagining that'll be less easy to do with an on-going comic, though.
Personally, I'm betting on an eventual retcon. Maybe not soon, but eventually.
2016/06/04 03:21:06
Subject: I am Boycotting anything and everything to do with Marvel
Kovnik Obama wrote: I guess that's the price to pay when you buy what amounts to a crass propaganda piece hook, line and sinker.
That sounds like a statement based on zero knowledge of Steve Rogers.
I assume you mean Captain America, as in the comic, not the character, since personal knowledge of the fictional character is not really necessary to determine if something is a propaganda piece. And it most certainly is : Simon himself said the publication was motivated by a pro-war sentiment shared by the three creators.
There were of course financial matters. The Shield, another patriotic comic, was hugely successful at the time.
As for it being qualified as propaganda, that is simply beyond debate. Honour, truth, justice and freedom are not, in any shape or form, particular american virtues. The conflict between the Western powers and the Axis was not a conflict based on opposed virtues, but between two groups of imperialistic powers with contradicting aims.
Kovnik Obama wrote: I guess that's the price to pay when you buy what amounts to a crass propaganda piece hook, line and sinker.
That sounds like a statement based on zero knowledge of Steve Rogers.
Personally I'm tired of having this guy and his Great White Northernist agenda shoved down my throat.
Meh, Canada got some weird Avengers out of the Golden Age, including an Inuit Goddess, a Sasquatch and what seems to be two French-Canadian ice skating twins with an axe to grind against Catholicism.
I feel we are currently better represented with Deadpool and Wolverine.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/06/04 03:59:08
[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator.
2016/06/04 22:27:37
Subject: I am Boycotting anything and everything to do with Marvel
timetowaste85 wrote: Actually, Captain America was created back during WW2 to inspire the troops. He wasn't created just to make money selling comics (of course, that kept the guys funded to keep making more). He was always intended to inspire and be a beacon against Nazi Germany. If you knew anything about the character, you'd know that. The soldiers, and other fans, who know that are offended because to them it looks like that inspiration was all a lie. The beacon was a fake. So try to see the big picture. Is he a comic book character? Yes. But he's also much more than that. I can't believe I'm about to say this, but...viewing Captain America as nothing more than a comic character intent on making money is incredibly juvenile and childish, and you should feel ashamed of yourself if you believe that. If any of you have relatives who fought in WW2, ask them how they'd feel about CA being a hydra (Nazi) agent all along. You might get a cane or wheelchair thrown at you.
Heh, I like it when people who don't know what they are talking about insult others.
Captain America originated in 1940 as an anti German piece. That's has jack squat to do with where Cap is *as a comic* now. You do realize Captain America was cancelled in 1954 right? In 1963 they teasered him, it went over well, so in 1964 they reintroduced Captain America. He would engage in some horrific acts of violence, be retconned to be a different guy that did that (Grand Director), become Nomad for a while (later a cured Jack Monroe would take the alias), switches to "the Captain" for a while, gets relaunched again, eventually reveals his identity, gets killed, but not really, slingshots through time and comes back. He then does a bunch of stuff involving the X-Men, Red Skull comes back (clone), the super serum is neutralized, then restored. Another relaunch, and now Cap is Hydra.
Here is a recap of some the things that Cap has done/been in that time period:
-Several different people
-A werewolf
-A violent meth addict
-A servant of the Red Skull
All of them later got "fixed".
So yes, I do know a bit about what's going on. Cap may have symbolic importance, but the nature of capitalism is that to Marvel, he is not much unless he is making them money. To sell the books, they are using sensationalism. It is ridiculous to claim this some how "undoes" the past- what Cap was in the past is just that. This Cap under this writer will do some other stuff. SOme other writer will do some other stuff. It will probably get explained away or retconned out later or maybe Cap makes a face to heel turn. Whatever. Make as many personal attacks as you want, but I have yet to see any veterans groups naming Cap going Hydra as an issue. Just people on the internet who take they funny books a bit too seriously. It's a controversial story arc for a comic; nothing more. Probably won't even have the nerd impact as Death of Superman or even death of Cap.
I am sure WW2 vets will appreciate your internet comments that they would/shoukd be enraged by a comic book angle in 2016, though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/04 23:52:08
-James
2016/06/05 01:08:10
Subject: I am Boycotting anything and everything to do with Marvel
If that is the entire truth-- and I disagree there-- it just means that Captain America has more meaning than Marvel realizes.
Which, given the amount of STUPID retcons, editorial mandates, and all-around feth-ups that Marvel has done, is hardly surprising.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/06/05 01:09:06
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2016/06/05 06:07:44
Subject: I am Boycotting anything and everything to do with Marvel
So...your very first point is to agree with me about his inception, then spend the rest of your post telling me why I'm wrong. Got it.
I've said 3 times in this thread that I know it'll be retconned/he'll go back to normal at the end of the arc. But you're arguing against what he stands for and has always stood for. Which is a terrible argument, and plain wrong. I, and others, have stated over and over again what Captain America means. If you want to say his only value is $$$$, well...must really suck to be that cynical and wrong.
Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.
Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind.
2016/06/05 06:13:08
Subject: Re:I am Boycotting anything and everything to do with Marvel
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2016/06/28 15:11:11
Subject: Re:I am Boycotting anything and everything to do with Marvel
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2016/06/28 15:24:47
Subject: I am Boycotting anything and everything to do with Marvel
timetowaste85 wrote: Actually, Captain America was created back during WW2 to inspire the troops. He wasn't created just to make money selling comics (of course, that kept the guys funded to keep making more). He was always intended to inspire and be a beacon against Nazi Germany. If you knew anything about the character, you'd know that. The soldiers, and other fans, who know that are offended because to them it looks like that inspiration was all a lie. The beacon was a fake. So try to see the big picture. Is he a comic book character? Yes. But he's also much more than that. I can't believe I'm about to say this, but...viewing Captain America as nothing more than a comic character intent on making money is incredibly juvenile and childish, and you should feel ashamed of yourself if you believe that. If any of you have relatives who fought in WW2, ask them how they'd feel about CA being a hydra (Nazi) agent all along. You might get a cane or wheelchair thrown at you.
This. There are some superheroes that are icons, not just run of the mill fictional characters. Captain America is one of those icons.
That being said, it's understandable that some people would get bent out of shape when TPTB at Marvel and DC start mucking with them too much.
Fortunately for me, I lost interest in capegak a long time ago. And seeing the crap that's going on in the industry today, I'll never buy another issue from either of the old comics giants.
Proud Purveyor Of The Unconventional In 40k
2016/06/29 10:02:50
Subject: I am Boycotting anything and everything to do with Marvel
