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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Wouldn’t mind the nepotism if they didn’t also peddle the ‘pull yourself up by the boot straps’ lie.


Some people just get to start with bigger bootstraps to pull on I guess.

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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Wouldn’t mind the nepotism if they didn’t also peddle the ‘pull yourself up by the boot straps’ lie.


Yeah, ah, get some bootstraps, set them up, and lift. See how high you can lift yourself using bootstraps.

If more people tried it, they'd see just how accurate the statement is in the modern economy - i.e. you can pull all you want but you won't go anywhere. It basically means the exact OPPOSITE of how it's used.

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 LordofHats wrote:
I would agree with Voss.

America only likes to think it's a meritocracy.
Yeah. Some say 'the American dream is dead' or on life support, but it has yet to be alive in the first place. For every person that started from near nothing and worked their way to the top there are tens of thousands who tried and failed. That the people it worked for are held up as an example of American society is just salt in the wound.

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AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Voss wrote:
Some of these people though....
They just seem stupid. $500,000 is enough to make a legal donation and attach of a condition of 'and take my kid'

Doing it through Mr Shady Guy who's obviously going to throw you under the bus when he inevitably gets caught just seems like a terrible plan.

Granted some paid significantly less, but they still left a heck of a paper trail (that honestly should have been apparent to the schools, I've worked in admissions, and a large pile of people go through the relevant documents for each kid, many too small and anonymous to pay off like this)


Then again, if they were smart enough to realize that perhaps their kids wouldn't need bribery to get in in the first place...
That's not really surprising. Some of those people were probably the same dumb kids who needed some help from their parents to get into a good college a few decades ago. It's the circle of life.


All the meritocracy comment:
Spoiler:


Voss wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
There is some degree of support for that point of view from research evidence, such as the higher crash out rate of middle class undergrads in UK universities.

Of course it may be that middle-class children know there is a better safety net to help them after crashing out, but this is the same thing in a different way.

However I think we are missing the bigger picture, which is that in a meritocracy like the USA, being richer is proof you are better, and of course we want the naturally better children to get into the best universities.

The US isn't a meritocracy. It's a networking system, mostly still an 'old boys club'


LordofHats wrote:I would agree with Voss.

America only likes to think it's a meritocracy.


Vulcan wrote:
 LordofHats wrote:
I would agree with Voss.

America only likes to think it's a meritocracy.


America likes to PRETEND it's a meritocracy, while doing everything it can to enable the old boy's network...
If you go by the original definition then it's a bit different: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meritocracy#Etymology

Although the concept has existed for centuries, the term "meritocracy" is relatively new. It was used pejoratively by British politician and sociologist Michael Young in his 1958 satirical essay[2][12][13][14][15] The Rise of the Meritocracy, which pictured the United Kingdom under the rule of a government favouring intelligence and aptitude (merit) above all else, being the combination of the root of Latin origin "merit" (from "mereō" meaning "earn") and the Ancient Greek suffix "-cracy" (meaning "power", "rule").[16] (The purely Greek word is axiocracy (αξιοκρατία), from axios (αξιος, worthy) + "-cracy" (-κρατία, power).) In this book the term had distinctly negative connotations as Young questioned both the legitimacy of the selection process used to become a member of this elite and the outcomes of being ruled by such a narrowly defined group.

   
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Agree about the shallowness of the meritocracy ideal, which is why this is really the feel good story of the year.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/13/us/college-admission-cheating-scheme-wednesday/index.html

USC says students connected to cheating scheme will be denied admission

All University of Southern California applicants who are connected to the admissions cheating scheme will be denied admission, university spokesman Gary Polakovic said Wednesday.
A case-by-case review will be conducted for students who are already enrolled at USC and may be connected to the scheme. USC will "make informed, appropriate decisions once those reviews have been completed. Some of these individuals may have been minors at the time of their application process," he said.
The announcement comes a day after the nationwide scandal exposed what federal prosecutors describe as a corrupt exchange of wealth, fame and influence for student admissions to the nation's most elite universities.


Oh and the kids with the youtube shows are losing their sponsors.

Warms my heart really.

 
   
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To be fair, unless the kid knew this was being done, I have a hard time directing any ire at them. Their parents were douche bags, but I could see this happening without the student ever knowing about it, or not realizing exactly what it was.

In that sense, I wouldn't be on board with punishing the students who thought unawares that they had gotten into school just like everyone else. That's me being generous though, and how much the students knew I bet is likely to end up being really fuzzy.

   
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Yeah, it's hard to blame the individual children for the sins of their parents.

They will get the punishment of losing their places.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/15 06:39:21


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Influencers loosing their clout on YouTube......say it ain't so.........
Good, I hate influencers. It's just shady marketing.

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Somewhere in south-central England.

What happens after rich kids bribe their way into college? I teach them

From The Guardian.

The article says that the academically inadequate children of parents who cheat to get them into university are a burden on everyone else, consuming excessive teaching resources, and gaming the system to ensure they get "good" grades.

Depressing stuff.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/25 15:20:18


I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

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 Kilkrazy wrote:
Yeah, it's hard to blame the individual children for the sins of their parents.

They will get the punishment of losing their places.


Losing the place isn't punishment. It may feel like it to the child, but they had no right to it in the first place. Had their child not had their parents input they would have not got in, so would not have had the place, and only gained it wrongfully. taking something away someone has no right to is not punishment, even though they may be upset. The people who lose are the ones who lost out on a place because it was taken by someone less qualified, unless they took places the colleges could not otherwise fill.

 insaniak wrote:
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 LordofHats wrote:
To be fair, unless the kid knew this was being done, I have a hard time directing any ire at them. Their parents were douche bags, but I could see this happening without the student ever knowing about it, or not realizing exactly what it was.

In that sense, I wouldn't be on board with punishing the students who thought unawares that they had gotten into school just like everyone else. That's me being generous though, and how much the students knew I bet is likely to end up being really fuzzy.


Don't the kids themselves have to fill in the applications? Not sure how it works in the US but I definitely remember that in the UK it was the applicant that was required to fill in most of the application form when applying to University, with small amounts needing to be filled out by others. The onus was put on the applicant themselves to make sure everything was correct on the form as they would be held responsible for any misinformation that was supplied.

I'm amazed at how easy it seems to have been to circumvent the admissions process at some of these institutions. I can almost understand the children of a big donor being given preferential treatment (daddy paid for the new library so you get a free ride through admissions) but this seems to have happened without collusion from the universities themselves, which speaks volumes about how lax the admissions system are.
   
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Slipspace wrote:
Don't the kids themselves have to fill in the applications?


Yes, but the honest truth about the US is that everyone lies on applications. We just call it "fudging the truth" or "selling yourself." You'd be amazed some of the things people say you should put on applications, and when I say "but that isn't true" the response is always "who cares?" Getting past application processes is an entire industry unto itself now, and that industry is shady as feth, incredibly dishonest, and making a killing because getting past application processes is integral to everything now and the processes are all loaded to begin with. There is honestly imo a cultural aspect to this controversy no one is talking about but maybe that's for another thread.

For this specific case, the ring leader marketed himself as a service and it isn't immediately clear how much of what that "service" was doing the kids knew about. The exact mechanics of how involved they were hasn't been expanded on. Did they fill out their own applications? Did the people running the scam "review" said applications before mailing it off (I've seen ads for services like that in the past)? There's some, like the girl who never played Tennis who was marketed as a tennis player to schools, but did she know people were marketing her as a tennis player?

There are some, like the girl who should have known she didn't even take the ACT let alone score a 30, who I think obviously should have known something was up or they're even dumber than their parents must think they are. There are others where the right amount of youthful naivety and duplicity on the part of the organizers could leave people having no idea what was going on, or that it was illegal. Some students have already voluntarily withdrawn, and props to them I guess, but for others I hate to imagine being told "we know you're on your last semester and you actually did really well and got accepted into pre-med, but even though you did all the work for once in your life and succeeded well we're throwing you out because your parents are dicks."

The schools are though doing what I'd do. Investigate each case and address them by their immediate merits. Probably the only thing they really can do.


   
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Thanks for explaining. The lying on your applications in general is undoubtedly a whole other topic, but if you're supposed to have completed the form yourself the kids don't really have a leg to stand on, legally speaking.

It's also interesting that the Hollywood celebrity angle is what put this in the news in the first place, but it also seems to be taking the spotlight away from the whole university admission process in general, especially when it comes to the uni's themselves doing their due diligence. A lot of the things that have been reported on are the kind of things I wouldn't even attempt because they sound too stupid to work. Just lying about sporting achievements, for example.
   
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Slipspace wrote:
It's also interesting that the Hollywood celebrity angle is what put this in the news in the first place,


What's really interesting about it is how much of a stretch it is. On the whole, barely any celebrities are involved. It's mostly upper upper middle class/lower lower upper class business types and entrepreneurs who were involved. What few Hollywood celebrities are actually implicated are all either past their prime or fairly obscure currently.

A lot of the things that have been reported on are the kind of things I wouldn't even attempt because they sound too stupid to work. Just lying about sporting achievements, for example.


It's probably in part related to the schools involved. These schools can charge ludicrous prices for only moderately better education because of their reputations as the best. As a result, a lot of these schools, and their alumni, have developed insular cliques, cliques Singer used to get students into schools.

The real issue isn't that the schools didn't do due diligence (they didn't), but the nepotism inherent to elite universities. Which is ironic. It's that nepotism largely that makes degrees from these schools so valuable, and legal realm is probably one of the greatest examples. Four universities basically staff the entire US court system at this point. Looking at who is sitting behind benches and at the top of law firms, one would think only four universities are capable of producing capable lawyers. Just try to get on the Supreme Court without a degree from Harvard, Yale, Columbia, or Stanford.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/25 17:43:39


   
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Dr Dre knows the score, you don't go through a middle man, you go right to the source. $70 MILLION dollar donation to USC and shockingly his daughter gets in.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/dr-dre-deletes-gloating-usc-post-after-dollar70m-donation-backlash?via=FB_Page&source=TDB

Now I'm sure it was a legit donation, if he just wanted to buy a seat he could've gotten one for a lot less, but you can also be damn sure his daughter's application got a second, third and fourth look.

Maybe mask names in applications? Yeah sure sometimes it would be clear as glass who the application is from but it would help the process.

 
   
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 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Dr Dre knows the score, you don't go through a middle man, you go right to the source. $70 MILLION dollar donation to USC and shockingly his daughter gets in.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/dr-dre-deletes-gloating-usc-post-after-dollar70m-donation-backlash?via=FB_Page&source=TDB

Now I'm sure it was a legit donation, if he just wanted to buy a seat he could've gotten one for a lot less, but you can also be damn sure his daughter's application got a second, third and fourth look.

Maybe mask names in applications? Yeah sure sometimes it would be clear as glass who the application is from but it would help the process.


Whats weird is that USC is not that good a school. Its rankings are strictly meh.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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It's not high overall, but like Pennsylvania State (not to be confused with Univsersity of Pennsylvania) USC is considered on the tier of "Ivy League Lite" universities.

Again though, this is mostly a matter of reputation more than reality.

   
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When I was in Cali, throwing sabre toothed tigers into the LaBrea tarpits because thats how I rolled, most of the UC schools were considered superior.

USC was for future real estate agents/developers and their future cheerleader wives.

Doesn't sound like that has really changed.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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 Frazzled wrote:
When I was in Cali, throwing sabre toothed tigers into the LaBrea tarpits because thats how I rolled, most of the UC schools were considered superior.

USC was for future real estate agents/developers and their future cheerleader wives.

Doesn't sound like that has really changed.


Yeah that was my feeling too, but I chalked it up to East Coast Elitism.

 
   
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The Great State of Texas

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
When I was in Cali, throwing sabre toothed tigers into the LaBrea tarpits because thats how I rolled, most of the UC schools were considered superior.

USC was for future real estate agents/developers and their future cheerleader wives.

Doesn't sound like that has really changed.


Yeah that was my feeling too, but I chalked it up to East Coast Elitism.


EDIT: I am not intending to slam USC. It is a good school. Its just not UCLA or UC Berkeley level.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
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 Frazzled wrote:


EDIT: I am not intending to slam USC. It is a good school. Its just not UCLA or UC Berkeley level.


So nothing you'd spend $70 million to get your kid in?

 
   
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Well, well, well.

What strikes me as funny is the very same sort of folks that wave their Sociology or Poli-Sci degree at other people are somehow shocked that American Universities are a scam.

Man, must really be insane that those "totally unbiased" Activists-turned-professors with six-figure-salaries spent all that time telling everyone about the evils of capitalism.

And there you are, with student loans you won't pay back until you're old enough to collect social security.

Don't worry, guys- some folks are laughing because "lol rich kids". Guys like me are laughing because "IMAGINE MY SHOCK".


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You know, for all my time in community colleges, liberal arts schools, and universities, I don't once recall ever having a professor rail against the evils of capitalism, nor know ever have a class with a former activist as a teacher, nor did I know anyone who was under the impression that entrance into colleges and universities did not entail a notable degree of corruption, particularly at the big-name level. The nepotism has always been acknowledged, the entire concept of "legacies" openly ridiculed even while being indulged in.

Hell, I can tell you at least a dozen of my grad school class was there as a result of...significantly higher than normal tuition payments, usually funded by someone's parent at a large foreign gov/economic institution. That was an open secret.



I think the big shock here is more about the absurdity involved in this particular instance. There's a lot of it

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 Vaktathi wrote:
You know, for all my time in community colleges, liberal arts schools, and universities, I don't once recall ever having a professor rail against the evils of capitalism, nor know ever have a class with a former activist as a teacher, nor did I know anyone who was under the impression that entrance into colleges and universities did not entail a notable degree of corruption, particularly at the big-name level. The nepotism has always been acknowledged, the entire concept of "legacies" openly ridiculed even while being indulged in.


The fastest way to know who a) never went to college, or b) sucked at college, is to see how long it takes them to start ranting about political bias at colleges. Which isn't to say there isn't any, but I've been to three different college campus' in my life, and I wouldn't say any of them were anymore political than anywhere else I've ever been. Not every campus is Berkeley. Most of them are pretty mundane places.

I think the big shock here is more about the absurdity involved in this particular instance. There's a lot of it


To be fair, while the self-aware are not shocked by this at all, I think there's probably lots of people out there who are because this is counter to how we presume these processes to work. I do think people erroneously believe admission systems to be more meritorious than they really are.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/26 01:58:28


   
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 Vaktathi wrote:
You know, for all my time in community colleges, liberal arts schools, and universities, I don't once recall ever having a professor rail against the evils of capitalism, nor know ever have a class with a former activist as a teacher, nor did I know anyone who was under the impression that entrance into colleges and universities did not entail a notable degree of corruption, particularly at the big-name level. The nepotism has always been acknowledged, the entire concept of "legacies" openly ridiculed even while being indulged in.


Oh, were I less concerned about being harassed IRL by some of the people on this page, I'd invite you to my local college. And this is not in a 'blue state' or even a 'blue city'.

To summarize one of my first experiences in a certain class:

PROF: "Water is not wet."

ME: "I'm not sure I understand. But according to the definition, water is wet and with this water I can show you that it is demonstrably wet."

PROF: "I am using an abstract definition of 'wet' that does not match the English Webster's definition of 'wet', therefore you are now wrong and suddenly your essay barely passes despite the trend of significantly higher marks for essays you put less effort into."

ME: "I would like to speak with you after class."

PROF: "No."

Had it not been for a very helpful veteran-supportive Ombudsman, I'd have had more problems. Fortunately I was able to drop this class and get something different with a sane professor.

And yeah, the people who buy education are openly acknowledged by most sensible people. Just as much as we knew in high school why Butterfingers Bubba that could barely spell his name was a starting wide receiver with a B+ average in every class, and the actual talented athletes were on the sidelines. I'm just shocked that despite years of me and others saying "We need to do a thorough review and audit of every educational institution in the country from the Preschools to Universities", people act like we're asking for witch-pyres and Year Zero initiatives.


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 LordofHats wrote:
The fastest way to know who a) never went to college, or b) sucked at college, is to see how long it takes them to start ranting about political bias at colleges. Which isn't to say there isn't any, but I've been to three different college campus' in my life, and I wouldn't say any of them were anymore political than anywhere else I've ever been. Not every campus is Berkeley. Most of them are pretty mundane places..


And those folks buying their kids' way into Harvard certainly would claim that there was no financial corruption in schools, that it was perfectly fair and anyone who thought otherwise had no real experience and was just too stupid to get into Harvard.

Amazing how things are 'just dandy' when it makes you feel good and works to your benefit, isn't it?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/26 02:00:38


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 Adeptus Doritos wrote:


Oh, were I less concerned about being harassed IRL by some of the people on this page, I'd invite you to my local college. And this is not in a 'blue state' or even a 'blue city'.

To summarize one of my first experiences in a certain class:

PROF: "Water is not wet."

ME: "I'm not sure I understand. But according to the definition, water is wet and with this water I can show you that it is demonstrably wet."

PROF: "I am using an abstract definition of 'wet' that does not match the English Webster's definition of 'wet', therefore you are now wrong and suddenly your essay barely passes despite the trend of significantly higher marks for essays you put less effort into."

ME: "I would like to speak with you after class."

PROF: "No."

Had it not been for a very helpful veteran-supportive Ombudsman, I'd have had more problems. Fortunately I was able to drop this class and get something different with a sane professor.


Honestly, this says more about you than him cause I'm completely unclear how this is political at all. I'm also surprised you seriously have never heard anyone use that anecdote before. That was the first example I ever got when the professor was explaining rhetoric, and if that was your literal response you completely missed the point, so a lower grade doesn't shock me.

Though I too have often been surprised by how well I did on things I barely tried on vs things I tried really hard on. Eventually decided there is such a thing as trying too hard.

"We need to do a thorough review and audit of every educational institution in the country from the Preschools to Universities", people act like we're asking for witch-pyres and Year Zero initiatives.


Probably because we already do that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/26 02:05:28


   
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 LordofHats wrote:

Honestly, this says more about you than him cause I'm completely unclear how this is political at all. I'm also surprised you seriously have never heard anyone use that anecdote before. That was the first example I ever got when the professor was explaining rhetoric, and if that was your literal response you completely missed the point, so a lower grade doesn't shock me.


Considering we have a forum with a 'no politics' rule, I am deliberately dumbing down the example to a simple form to avoid certain bad actors coming in and screaming like I've goose-stepped into a room and set fire to a crib full of toddlers. And in truth because I really, REALLY don't want that specific topic to come up here.

 LordofHats wrote:
Though I too have often been surprised by how well I did on things I barely tried on vs things I tried really hard on. Eventually decided there is such a thing as trying too hard.


Oh, I'll give you that. But usually that's what I expect as a result from playing Mortal Kombat 4 and doing bong rips at 2 AM vs. actually trying to play the game with both eyes open. It may be a 'coincidence', but there was also the combination of the gentleman professor being considerably rude (and I was not the only person that had a complaint against him). For all I know, I caught him on a bad day or he was beyond the point of giving a damn what they did to him for speaking his mind.

And what struck me as odd is in another class, I had a more outspoken professor that was very much the opposite of me in terms of beliefs but I can honestly say he was one of the most pleasant people I've ever known and I enjoyed talks with him, because he was a respectful person and would listen to people and acknowledge their statements as having merit when they did. Lovely guy, now owns a florist and thought it was hilarious I also used to work in one, despite being... well, 'me'.

 LordofHats wrote:
Probably because we already do that.


I'd say it's a bit overdue, because I can tell you that my stepmother recently retired as a high school teacher, from public schools- and she taught US Government, and boy were there some interesting interpretations of a few things in that book. Some real doozies in the History books, too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/26 02:23:49


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SoCal

I went to Berkeley, and the professors really weren't that political. Well, there was the one prof who insisted Bolsheviks were pushing the gay agenda to suppress the real Assyrian Civilization, but he was in the math department.

   
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 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I went to Berkeley, and the professors really weren't that political. Well, there was the one prof who insisted Bolsheviks were pushing the gay agenda to suppress the real Assyrian Civilization, but he was in the math department.


So the University isn't political, but for some reason it's a magnet for radicals that throw molotov cocktails and trash an entire town.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but I'm thinking you might have missed a few things.

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 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I went to Berkeley, and the professors really weren't that political. Well, there was the one prof who insisted Bolsheviks were pushing the gay agenda to suppress the real Assyrian Civilization, but he was in the math department.


So the University isn't political, but for some reason it's a magnet for radicals that throw molotov cocktails and trash an entire town.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but I'm thinking you might have missed a few things.


No, you pretty much summed it up. The administration were pretty much business as usual, and most professors were devoted to their own academic niches. The student body, as well as the aging hippy population native to the area but not actually involved with the university, as well as some highly motivated agitators from Oakland and SF...they were very political.

   
 
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