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Exactly. So either give us power weapons, or give us a significant defensive boon (T5, FNP, 4+ save, or any combination thereof). Those are the only thing that make a difference except in the most trivial of circumstances, like assaulting Great Knarlocks or something.

livingregret wrote: If by interesting you mean horrible...than yes Sorry but the idea of 5 people that can not actually be hidden and only get the max of a 4+ Cover save against shooting that gives up 3+ KP is not appealing. And needing 1 HQ + 2 troop choices your talking 9 KP(if each one is worth 3 in this example)for 15 people. Not cool...not cool at all

Sometimes I forget how weak guardsmen are... but I just jeep thinking about how many KP my army is going to be worth what with having about 50% more infantry squads.

Oh drek.. the loss of cheap power weapons is a scary thought.

I'm thinking about how many fewer KP my army will be worth. 1 for the platoon 1 for the Officer, well that's the rumor. Does make me wonder if vehicles are considered part of the platoon for those purposes.

I personally think that 1 kp per squad and HQ is what we will get and that is fine by me. when I lose a game due to KP's it's usually by the 1/2 the difference of my command squads lost or less

Man, that's an awefull lot of pages....

To comment on something that has been said on the 1st page ( ) I would love to see Cain (and Jurgen of course) to get rules and models. Cain is my favourite 40k character. Sure, then maybe we do have 3 Commisar special characters, but there are also half a dozen SCs just for Ultramarines....

BrookM wrote:Oh drek.. the loss of cheap power weapons is a scary thought.

Well if they're increasing Plasma Guns to 15 becuase they're 'rare', then expect Power Fists to skyrocket to 25 each. I mean, they're also rare right? Never mind the fact that a Powerfist on a WS3 S3 W1 T3 model with 2 attacks worth all of 5 points and a power weapon on the same model should be free.

BYE

Anung Un Rama wrote:Man, that's an awefull lot of pages....

'sorright. Most of 'em are mine, so you can safely ignore those.

BYE

BrookM wrote:Rough Riders will get horses.

SPACE HORSES!

The good news is they will ride Grim Dark Space Horses.

The bad news is they will give up 2 KP per squad. One for the riders, one for the Grim Dark Space Horses.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Never mind the fact that a Powerfist on a WS3 S3 W1 T3 model with 2 attacks worth all of 5 points and a power weapon on the same model should be free.

Know what this is? Truth.....plain and simple truth.

Are I sucks and against pretty much EVERYTHING IN THE FREAKIN GAME we are striking last at anyways. And if we aren't? No biggie....t3, s3, 5+ save = Fail in CC.

@HBMC the baseline thing I belive is how it SHOULD work but does not. One needs only run a few mathhammer calcs and we will see it is a flawed game. I think marine w/ bolter would be a good base line since it is what GW if focused around selling. In a truly balanced game who the base is would not matter since everything would balance out relatively. All that said its still fun MOST of the time.

smart_alex wrote:@HBMC the baseline thing I belive is how it SHOULD work but does not.

It's what it's mosty based on. As you add more and more units eventually you can't base everything on the single base unit you originally created. At that point you create a base unit in each army (Guardsman, Guardian, Firewarrior, Ork Boy), base that new base-unit off the original base unit, and then base all the other units within that Codex on the one you just created.

Again, it's never going to be perfect with all the different units there are in the game (and this doesn't even factor in how they would do vehicles on a comparative scale) but thankfully one of the easiest parts is weapon costs. The cost of a Plague Marine or a Pathfinder or a Wych Elf is always going to be questioned, but the comparative prices of weaponry (especially weaponry that's shared between difference Codices) is going to be easier to figure out.

That's why the 15 point Plasma Gun is so obviously broken, as we can see just by looking at it that it's not worth that much on a BS3 Sv5+ model (those two stats being the important ones when looking at a Plasma Gun).

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:

That's why the 15 point Plasma Gun is so obviously broken, as we can see just by looking at it that it's not worth that much on a BS3 Sv5+ model (those two stats being the important ones when looking at a Plasma Gun).

BYE

I don't know about that, shouldn't what the weapon in general brings to the codex within the context of itself have something to do with the price?

It may make logical sense for a power fist or plasma gun on a lowly guardsman to cost more than a Marine equivalent, either because the guardsman has less chance to survive long enough to use it and with less force - or simply has less chance to survive burning up., but I'm not sure if it makes gameplay sense.

I've had this argument with other players, veterans, beginners, myself many times and I don't think certain wargear should be cheaper because it's less effective in certain books. I think that's more of a side effect of the chosen army itself. The plasma gun still kills the same things it will in the hands of a guardsman as it does being held by a marine.

In fact, I'm actually all for guard paying the same price or even more in the case of the plasma gun. It's a very powerful weapon that fills many roles that their meager close combat cannot - MC hunting, terminator killing, light vehicles, character etc. I also think due to the cheaper nature of the average guardsman body and their FOC quirks, it's more likely you will have more plasma guns floating around versus a marine army of the same point cost.

I think we all know better than to expect inter-codex consistency from GW. Yelling at the Emperor for playing favorites with his precious Space Marinez doesn't change the fact that we still come out on top with all the other reduced costs. I chuckle at the thought of a plasma gun being worth almost 4 Guardsmen, however.

Guardsmen 1: "We have to go back for Johnson!"
Guardsmen 2: "For his tags?"
Guardsmen 1: "His what now?"

Defiler wrote:I've had this argument with other players, veterans, beginners, myself many times and I don't think certain wargear should be cheaper because it's less effective in certain books.

Explain that. Why? I do not understand.

In fact, flip it around.

15 point plasma Gun on a Marine. Then another army comes along that gets to re-roll all armour saves and is BS10, and they also use Plasma Guns. Is it worth 15 points on them as well?

I think that's more of a side effect of the chosen army itself. The plasma gun still kills the same things it will in the hands of a guardsman as it does being held by a marine.

Defiler wrote:In fact, I'm actually all for guard paying the same price or even more in the case of the plasma gun.

That makes even less sense. More for less?

Defiler wrote:It's a very powerful weapon that fills many roles that their meager close combat cannot - MC hunting, terminator killing, light vehicles, character etc. I also think due to the cheaper nature of the average guardsman body and their FOC quirks, it's more likely you will have more plasma guns floating around versus a marine army of the same point cost.

It's idiotic to think that a weapon that is less effective should cost same or more.

BYE

I'm with HBMC on this one, fluff and concept make way for game balance. A guardsman with a 15 point plasma gun would be ~20 points. A marine with a 15 point plasmagun would be ~30 points. This makes the guardsman 4-5 times its typical price and doubles the price of the marine. That means that a marine, with its great statline and special ruleset is only 33% more expensive than a guardsman. A guardsman is typically a third or less the value or a marine, yet equipping a single item nearly equalizes them. Damage output is not the only consideration in a points equation, the total package has to be considered first in a balanced game. A guardsman doesn't even have the same damage capability, its three times as likely to kill itself with its own gun, hits about 18% less often, and will get considerably less chance to even use the gun given its armor and leadership values.

Game balance > fluff nitpicking

While I find 15 pts to be high, let's remember that we're looking at the total cost of ownership, as well. Your IG 15 pt plasma gun is being carried by a 4 pt guardsmen, for a price tag of 19 pts. Your SM 10 pt plasma gun is being carried by a 16 pt space marine (replacing his "free" flamer), for a price tag of 26 pts.

Let's ignore economies of scale for the moment, as the IG army will certainly have more opportunities to buy plasma guns (and the SM army will certainly live longer to make use of them).

Question: is a plasma gun in the hands of an IG trooper 73% as useful as in the hands of a space marine?

Shooting: A BS 4 SM hits on a 3+; a BS 3 guardsman hits on a 4+. Shooting-wise, the IG get 75% of SM utility from the gun.

"Gets hot!": A SM saves on a 3+; a guardsman saves on a 5+. The IG are 50% as likely to survive "Gets hot!"

Weighing the relative factors is hard. I suppose you could construct a model, weighing the decreasing value of surviving in progressively later turns. It looks like the IG pay a little too much, but not THAT bad.

ShumaGorath wrote:I'm with HBMC on this one

R... really? Like, for real?

Well in that case:

15 point Plasma Guns? That's too damned cheap. They need to be at least 40, like the Sonic Blaster is in my beloved Chaos Codex. It's fair because they're rare in the fluff and powerful in game and... umm... GW sells things becaus they're nice and... not in it for the profit. Anyone who says otherwise is a... umm... conspiracy theorist... or something... and should stop playing if they hate it so... much... I love Apoc. Yeah... I guess.

No... I can't keep doing this. I feel unclean now...

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:I'm with HBMC on this one

R... really? Like, for real?

Well in that case:

15 point Plasma Guns? That's too damned cheap. They need to be at least 40, like the Sonic Blaster is in my beloved Chaos Codex. It's fair because they're rare in the fluff and powerful in game and... umm... GW sells things becaus they're nice and... not in it for the profit. Anyone who says otherwise is a... umm... conspiracy theorist... or something... and should stop playing if they hate it so... much... I love Apoc. Yeah... I guess.

No... I can't keep doing this. I feel unclean now...

BYE

I think I just heard the fabric of the universe tear. Wow, it sounded weird.

Defiler wrote:

I've had this argument with other players, veterans, beginners, myself many times and I don't think certain wargear should be cheaper because it's less effective in certain books. I think that's more of a side effect of the chosen army itself. The plasma gun still kills the same things it will in the hands of a guardsman as it does being held by a marine.

You forget that it hits less often, is more likely to kill the user on an overheat, is on a far easier to kill platform (t3 5+sv vs T4 3+sv) and is more likely to break and run and is *terrible* in CC compared to every other unit in the game except Grots. A marine with a plasma gun can sit there the whole game shooting and not be too bad off. A guardsmen with a plasma gun is almost certain to die by the end of the game.

In fact, I'm actually all for guard paying the same price or even more in the case of the plasma gun. It's a very powerful weapon that fills many roles that their meager close combat cannot - MC hunting, terminator killing, light vehicles, character etc.

Yes, but the only price it's going to go up to is 15pts. With the new codex that's almost 4 guardsmen. Space Marines pay for essentially an extra marine when they take a PG. Why should guardsmen have to buy almost half a *squad* of dudes for a PG?

Is IG plasma spam a genuine problem now? No? Has it ever really? I don't think so, and as such there isn't really a reason to increase it's cost.

Oh lordy, BolS is analyzing the Spanish list.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

It's idiotic to think that a weapon that is less effective should cost same or more.

BYE

It's also idiotic to selectively quote me, while ignoring the intent of my post.

BYE

Vaktathi - I didn't forget any of that. That wasn't my point though, I realize it's less effective in a real battlefield situation, but it's still a plasma gun and it's still on a theoretically cheaper body.

New IG sounds great, sold over 5000pts few years ago and was considering getting SM until I read this. Any news of a apoc size IG with tons of troops/tanks etc...

BrookM wrote:Oh lordy, BolS is analyzing the Spanish list.

Warseer, too, is taking it at face value without a shred of criticism. They decided that Mkoll could not be trusted.

What would be good, given the release of a plastic command squad, would be a platoon box set.

e.g. 1 Command Squad
2 Squads
1 Heavy Weapon Squad
1 Chimera

However, given that GW's Battallions are always next to useless, I'm guessing something like this won't be happening.

OK let me get this straight most folks are going ape over a "rumoured" price of a PG . OK if it true we can bi*ch. When its all said and done you will as well as me pay the 15 points to get the damn thing my .03

I'm still really skeptical about the gazillion tank variants posted but I want to believe.

skullspliter888 wrote:OK let me get this straight most folks are going ape over a "rumoured" price of a PG . OK if it true we can bi*ch. When its all said and done you will as well as me pay the 15 points to get the damn thing my .03

True. Plasma is the great equalizer. 15 pst or not, what other realistic choices do I have for MEQ-killer from my armoury? Flamers? Meltaguns? Surely not Grenade Launchers!? Plus after having spent considerable effort and time to get extra plasma guns for my 15+ converted guardsman, I am NOT going to just pull them off the frontlines.

Defiler wrote:It's also idiotic to selectively quote me, while ignoring the intent of my post.

BYE

*laughs*

You don't get off that easily son. Reply or conceed. You can't just call me a meany claim that you were right. Doesn't work that way.

Defiler wrote:That wasn't my point though

'Course it wasn't, otherwise you'd have to acknowledge his argument now wouldn't you?

Defiler wrote:I realize it's less effective in a real battlefield situation

Translation: I conceed.

Defiler wrote:but it's still a plasma gun and it's still on a theoretically cheaper body.

Which, as was already demonstrated, has numerous, numerous weaknesses compared to the Marine, torpedoing your line or argument in a single shot.

And he did it more elegantly than me.


BYE

Flashman wrote:What would be good, given the release of a plastic command squad, would be a platoon box set.

e.g. 1 Command Squad
2 Squads
1 Heavy Weapon Squad
1 Chimera

That could just end up being the Battleforce.

BYE