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Which would be great, but as I suggested in my post, when do Battleforces ever end up being useful?

The current IG one is pretty good, I started off getting 3 of them.

Dexy wrote:The current IG one is pretty good, I started off getting 3 of them.

(Quickly checks IG Battalion content on GW website) Fair point... just pop the new Command Squad in and downgrade to a Chimera perhaps? As heavy weapons are going to be included in the infantry squads (nuisance that, I prefer to keep my squads moving), the inclusion of a full Heavy Weapon Squad is probably unlikely.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

BrookM wrote:Oh lordy, BolS is analyzing the Spanish list.

Warseer, too, is taking it at face value without a shred of criticism. They decided that Mkoll could not be trusted.

The reason is that the spanish rumors are supposedly from the final draft of the codex that has gone to print while Mkoll admits his rumors were predominately from a copy of some playtest rules. It isn't that he couldn't be trusted, just that his rumors are secondary to the final draft.

ph34r wrote:I'm still really skeptical about the gazillion tank variants posted but I want to believe.

There have been several things that support the spanish rumors, in more instances then not parts of the spanish rumors have been corroborated, with Mkolls play test based rumors being the only thing to contradict it. The author has stated that there would be 21 or so vehicles (more recently saying 23), which there pretty much are. If you take the author at his word, you then have to ask how will there be so many vehicles? It always seemed unlikely they'd just copy the Forgeworld stuff and that they'd make new units up. None of the rumored new stuff is too ridiculous when you look at their disadvantages and trade offs. For me another thing I find to support it is that the author was quoted as saying that his objective was ti bakance and equally represent the infantry, artillery, armor aspects of the IG, that appears to be what this rumored list does. Think of it this way, IG we don't have greater demons or anything like that, so instead we get the "greater demon" of tanks and the "greater demon" of artillery.

It is difficult for many of the disillusioned guard players to imagine a codex where the guard are at par with other armies, where we actually have an advantage beyond the number of models, where we have a decent chance of playing winning. It seems like the only thing GW really needed to do to make those players happy was to cost down vehicles and guardsmen and to make the ogryn better. *gasp* we're getting more. For the first time things are going our way and IG players are in denial. Maybe the totality of the spanish rumors aren't completely right, but they seem to be mostly right.

I agree with HBMC on the plasma gun issue, at least on a comparative basis from one model to the next.

However, there can be an argument made on the economy of scale. If IG had cheaper Plasmaguns, because of their low price, you can take a crap ton more of them then in a Marine army.

For the cost it would take for a Marine army to field one unit with a Plasmagun (not counting BA/DA that can still do 5 man + special), the IG can field two squads with Plasmaguns.

Maybe I am talking out my rear, but it is still something to consider.

I don't think it justifies a 15 point price tag, but 10 wouldn't be unreasonable.

As far as the Powerweapon/ Powerfist debate, I think it should be 5 points for the Powerweapon and 10 points for the powerfist. Anymore then that it wouldn't be worth it, any less, there would be no reason not to take them.

The reason is that the spanish rumors are supposedly from the final draft of the codex that has gone to print while Mkoll admits his rumors were predominately from a copy of some playtest rules. It isn't that he couldn't be trusted, just that his rumors are secondary to the final draft.

Where is our leaked codex?

It is difficult for many of the disillusioned guard players to imagine a codex where the guard are at par with other armies, where we actually have an advantage beyond the number of models, where we have a decent chance of playing winning. It seems like the only thing GW really needed to do to make those players happy was to cost down vehicles and guardsmen and to make the ogryn better. *gasp* we're getting more. For the first time things are going our way and IG players are in denial. Maybe the totality of the spanish rumors aren't completely right, but they seem to be mostly right.

Who would have ever thought as early as two years ago that the most competitive armies would be Orks and Guard!

The first day of Special Weapons Basic Training in any Guard boot camp must be very hilarious.

"Men, I want you to all be constantly aware that the weapon you're holding is 4 times more valuable to the Imperium than you are. Therefore, when you die, I want all of you to make an attempt to cushion the weapon's fall with your body. We can't have those things getting busted up."

aka_mythos wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:

BrookM wrote:Oh lordy, BolS is analyzing the Spanish list.

Warseer, too, is taking it at face value without a shred of criticism. They decided that Mkoll could not be trusted.

The reason is that the spanish rumors are supposedly from the final draft of the codex that has gone to print while Mkoll admits his rumors were predominately from a copy of some playtest rules. It isn't that he couldn't be trusted, just that his rumors are secondary to the final draft.

ph34r wrote:I'm still really skeptical about the gazillion tank variants posted but I want to believe.

There have been several things that support the spanish rumors, in more instances then not parts of the spanish rumors have been corroborated, with Mkolls play test based rumors being the only thing to contradict it. The author has stated that there would be 21 or so vehicles (more recently saying 23), which there pretty much are. If you take the author at his word, you then have to ask how will there be so many vehicles? It always seemed unlikely they'd just copy the Forgeworld stuff and that they'd make new units up. None of the rumored new stuff is too ridiculous when you look at their disadvantages and trade offs. For me another thing I find to support it is that the author was quoted as saying that his objective was ti bakance and equally represent the infantry, artillery, armor aspects of the IG, that appears to be what this rumored list does. Think of it this way, IG we don't have greater demons or anything like that, so instead we get the "greater demon" of tanks and the "greater demon" of artillery.

The thing that I noticed, is the Orders system. Where Mkoll makes no mention of it (That I can remember seeing), it's been almost confirmed as an aspect of the new army. If the blurb of text that accompanied the shots of the Plastic Valkyrie really is from the next White Dwarf, it makes the Orders system one of the very few things we actually have confirmed by GW directly.

Personally, I'm inclined to believe a little of both, not everything from either.

But the Artillery from the Spanish list makes me both skeptical and wet between the knees at the same time. While the Deathstrike would be TOTALLY WICKED! It just seems like it's only useful in apocalypse. In terms of realistic thinking (I know, I know! HISS! REALISM! HISS!), it's basically bringing your smallest ICBMs to a smallish-scale firefight. Why would you DO that?! Even if you're going to bring the big guns to the fight, why in the Emperor's name would those things be ANYWHERE near an enemy when they can fire what equates to 960" in game terms?!

But in Apocalypse games? I plan on having a battery of the little bastards. Eventually I'll just get together a fully dedicated artillery regiment. Mmmm.

AlexCage wrote:The first day of Special Weapons Basic Training in any Guard boot camp must be very hilarious.

"Men, I want you to all be constantly aware that the weapon you're holding is 4 times more valuable to the Imperium than you are. Therefore, when you die, I want all of you to make an attempt to cushion the weapon's fall with your body. We can't have those things getting busted up."

Are we also required to cushion it when the fragging thing overheats to the point of "owie, my fingers!"



I guess not..

And then there's this pic from r0xAs on the Boot Camp thread, which in turn was credited to Warseer (love posts that have bibliographies ).

Don't know if it's a kit or conversion, but it may be the Russ with the Punisher Cannon.

ubermosher wrote:And then there's this pic from r0xAs on the Boot Camp thread, which in turn was credited to Warseer (love posts that have bibliographies ).

Don't know if it's a kit or conversion, but it may be the Russ with the Punisher Cannon.

If it is, that answers the question of what the 4 barreled tank in the BGB is.

Yup, that's a studio model alright. Could be an in-house conversion though, not a production model, maybe a prototype.

Platuan4th wrote:If it is, that answers the question of what the 4 barreled tank in the BGB is.

Actually, since I'm thinking the pic increases the reliability of the Spanish Rumors, I'm wondering if the 4-barreled tank in the BGB is the Heavy 4 Exterminator, re-cut as a 4 barrel tank?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Defiler wrote:It's also idiotic to selectively quote me, while ignoring the intent of my post.

BYE

*laughs*

You don't get off that easily son. Reply or conceed. You can't just call me a meany claim that you were right. Doesn't work that way.

Defiler wrote:That wasn't my point though

'Course it wasn't, otherwise you'd have to acknowledge his argument now wouldn't you?

Defiler wrote:I realize it's less effective in a real battlefield situation

Translation: I conceed.

Defiler wrote:but it's still a plasma gun and it's still on a theoretically cheaper body.

Which, as was already demonstrated, has numerous, numerous weaknesses compared to the Marine, torpedoing your line or argument in a single shot.

And he did it more elegantly than me.


BYE

You're really not as intelligent as you think you are.

A 2000 point imperial guard army can easily have 150-200 men on the field, and in the new codex they will (can) easily have a lot more than that.

A 2000 point marine army is lucky to put 40-50 models on the field.

The IG FOC has more opportunities for plasma weaponry. And a potential for more bodies. This is more important than you might think.

Trust me mister arrogant, I completely understand the virtues of plasma weapons on tougher, more accurate bodies as illustrated in my very first post - as I listed a counter argument to my own opinion, in efforts of showing I've thought out both sides.

And yes, it's quite idiotic to think that an army that can have more of the same option, (Redundancy) shouldn't pay more for it. Even if it's a little bit less effective. Something that is a comparatively rarer choice in one list should be cheaper, than one that can essentially be spammed in another.

But you wouldn't understand that. You only take into account literal performance stats - ignoring that two plasma guns for around the same cost as one marine with a plasma gun have more potential for damage than the single weapon.

BYE

AlexCage wrote:The first day of Special Weapons Basic Training in any Guard boot camp must be very hilarious.

"Men, I want you to all be constantly aware that the weapon you're holding is 4 times more valuable to the Imperium than you are. Therefore, when you die, I want all of you to make an attempt to cushion the weapon's fall with your body. We can't have those things getting busted up."

Isn't that in the Munitorum's Manual, that failure to retrieve a special weapon dropped by a dead squadmate is punishable by death? (Along with showing up to the game store unbathed, and measuring distance incorrectly, among other things.)

Defiler wrote:You're really not as intelligent as you think you are.

A 2000 point imperial guard army can easily have 150-200 men on the field, and in the new codex they will (can) easily have a lot more than that.

A 2000 point marine army is lucky to put 40-50 models on the field.

The IG FOC has more opportunities for plasma weaponry. And a potential for more bodies. This is more important than you might think.

Trust me mister arrogant, I completely understand the virtues of plasma weapons on tougher, more accurate bodies as illustrated in my very first post - as I listed a counter argument to my own opinion, in efforts of showing I've thought out both sides.

And yes, it's quite idiotic to think that an army that can have more of the same option, (Redundancy) shouldn't pay more for it. Even if it's a little bit less effective. Something that is a comparatively rarer choice in one list should be cheaper, than one that can essentially be spammed in another.

But you wouldn't understand that. You only take into account literal performance stats - ignoring that two plasma guns for around the same cost as one marine with a plasma gun have more potential for damage than the single weapon.

BYE

Whoa now boys, lets not let anonymity and access to the internet get the better of us. This is a public forum after all. I mean, we could be arguing about the validity of a 5 point increase that may or may not be true.

Everyone please raise their hand who did not get their permission slip signed to take plasma in the new codex. Good, everyone was able to trick their parents. I'll still be taking plasma, with or without those 5 points included.

normally i'd just dismiss HBMC's posts just like i would an angry old man holding a "THE END IS NEAR!" sign on the street corner but he has a point. i agree that guard plasma should be rare but expensive doesn't equal rare. rare means that it should only be allowed (no matter what the cost) in certain squads and not others. for instance, squads with an officer should have the political power/rank to requisition a plasma weapon; lowly sergeants (or even veteran sergeants) shouldn't have access to them for their squads. in an ideal world, the plasma would cost 10 points and be limited to command squads, stormtroopers, veteran squads, and specialty vehicles like the demolisher. i have every command squad (3 total) outfitted with max plasma guns; i also have a medic in each because there is a 1/9 chance that a guardsmen will kill HIMSELF everytime he fires (rapid firing 4 guns in the squad means the medic is very busy). if this comes through, i'd rather spend the 60pts (plus the cost of the 3 medics) on something else.

15pts for a plasma gun? does that also include its little weaker brother the plasma pistol too? if so im so screwed because i pack alot of plasma for my command squads

Flashman wrote:Which would be great, but as I suggested in my post, when do Battleforces ever end up being useful?

The current Space Marine and Cadian forces are quite good - I've bought the SM Battleforce and was quite pleased with the value it provided. The SM would be optimal if the Combat Squad and Scout Squad were merged into a 2nd Tactical Squad.

The Cadian battleforce is also quite good, and an excellent start in on any IG force. Indeed, one could buy 3 of them to get the necessary bodies and Russes required to start.

____

aka_mythos wrote:The reason is that the spanish rumors are supposedly from the final draft of the codex that has gone to print while Mkoll admits his rumors were predominately from a copy of some playtest rules.

It always seemed unlikely they'd just copy the Forgeworld stuff and that they'd make new units up.

It is difficult for many of the disillusioned guard players to imagine a codex where the guard are at par with other armies,

I dunno. The Spanish rumors seem awfully silly, though.

Actually, I fully expected GW to simply use the power of copypasta and move most of the FW stuff into the regular list.

Guard *are* at par, as long as they're built as un-Guard-like Drop Troops supported by Ordnance. The problem is that this competitive build totally flies in the face of existing Guard Fluff and imagery. But make no mistake that this works and works very well.
____

ubermosher wrote:Don't know if it's a kit or conversion, but it may be the Russ with the Punisher Cannon.

Looks very Apocalypse, especially with the Steel Legion models.
____

warboss wrote:normally i'd just dismiss HBMC's posts just like i would an angry old man holding a "THE END IS NEAR!" sign on the street corner but he has a point.

i agree that guard plasma should be rare but expensive doesn't equal rare. rare means that it should only be allowed (no matter what the cost) in certain squads and not others. for instance, squads with an officer should have the political power/rank to requisition a plasma weapon;

Heh. Now, I'm picturing BM as more like the crazy cat lady on the Simpsons...

In the IG, "rare" is denoted as "Officer-only", like, say Power Fists...

Plasma is "uncommon" in that it's not a common Lasgun, but any squad can take at least 1, and many squads can take several. Storm squads can take 2, Specials and Veterans can take 3, and Officers can take 4. Works for me!

There's a lot more things than a 15 point plasmagun that are wrong with the world. So what if they raise it. Everything else is getting cheaper, you'll still be able to afford all your beloved plasma, probably even more than before. Doesn't matter how great the new codex is, folks will always find one dumb little thing to cry about

Yeah, but how about letting that "one dumb thing" be something that nobody needs to field, like, say, Ratling Snipers or Priests.

Necros wrote:There's a lot more things than a 15 point plasmagun that are wrong with the world. So what if they raise it. Everything else is getting cheaper, you'll still be able to afford all your beloved plasma, probably even more than before. Doesn't matter how great the new codex is, folks will always find one dumb little thing to cry about

Do you see where your "easy going" attitude has led you? What new depths of heresy will you plumb, after madness such as this!
Poor soul, only now, at the end, do you understand why an open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.

Now, into the black ship before your heresy infects anyone else!

Edit: I can live with 15 point plasma guns, but good lord, plasma pistols need to be 5 points now. For any army really, but especially guard. Is 12" assault 1 really worth it if the only way to get yourself killed faster than shooting your pistol is assaulting afterwards? 15 points for a weapon you can shoot once or twice all game is bad enough on Sisters or Marines, but on guard it would be nuts. 10 isn't much better.

BrookM wrote:Yup, that's a studio model alright. Could be an in-house conversion though, not a production model, maybe a prototype.

I hope so, because that's fething hideous. How many damn decades must we wait until they redesign the two ugliest vehicle models in the 40k range?

ubermosher wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:If it is, that answers the question of what the 4 barreled tank in the BGB is.

Actually, since I'm thinking the pic increases the reliability of the Spanish Rumors, I'm wondering if the 4-barreled tank in the BGB is the Heavy 4 Exterminator, re-cut as a 4 barrel tank?

I'm hoping:

1) It's a conversion, 'cuz it ain't pretty enough to deserve a metal or plastic model like that, and
2) It's the Exterminator, because the Spanish list just seems inane to me.

Remember the source of 15 point plasma also stated the possibility of squads taking 2 special weapons. So potentially there is a chance of taking 60 plasma guns in standard infantry squads alone, nevermind the potential for stormtroopers, veteran squads, command squads, etc. Definite potential for spam there, even in low point games.

I do find the rarity of plasma argument a little weak however, considering it appears that Sentinels will be gaining an option for plasma cannons.

Hmmm. Anyone heard anything about an IG battleforce? Spearhead? Flak armor Tide or any other huge box O' IG? I'd love to see guard get a boxed set that rivaled the tyranids box.

Battle Forces are renewed several months after the initial release.

Spearheads are out and not coming back, same for army deals.

aka_mythos wrote:Think of it this way, IG we don't have greater demons or anything like that, so instead we get the "greater demon" of tanks and the "greater demon" of artillery.

Don't say that! If we got the "greater daemon" of tanks and artillery we would be limited to only LRBTs with no sponsons for tanks and basic basilisks for artillery!

synchronicity wrote:
Whoa now boys, lets not let anonymity and access to the internet get the better of us. This is a public forum after all. I mean, we could be arguing about the validity of a 5 point increase that may or may not be true.

Everyone please raise their hand who did not get their permission slip signed to take plasma in the new codex. Good, everyone was able to trick their parents. I'll still be taking plasma, with or without those 5 points included.

I have two responses to this :

1) He started it

2) My dad can beat up his dad


My only issue is that one can simply just disagree, illustrate with reasons and then be insulted for having a different opinion.

The last thing I have to offer that I didn't in my previous post, was that if the whole army in general is getting cheaper - something like a 5 point increase in plasma weapons would be a drop in the ocean. I don't see how this is something to get up in arms about.

Defiler wrote:The last thing I have to offer that I didn't in my previous post, was that if the whole army in general is getting cheaper - something like a 5 point increase in plasma weapons would be a drop in the ocean. I don't see how this is something to get up in arms about.

Two reasons:
1) It's an artificial and arbitrary attempt to create tabletop scarcity, when the rules designers have far more effective means to actually implement rarity, if they actually wanted to. Instead, we get the worst of both worlds: paying far more than what the relative value of the weapon should be, coupled with some lame attempt to excuse the pricing with an unjustified claim of fluff-based scarcity.

2) It undermines the "cheaper, therefore now better" philosophy of game design if the discount in base Guardsmen prices is (partially) offset by an increase in near-mandatory equipment.

Simple fact: the IG have relatively few options, when it comes to dealing with heavy infantry (terminators) and robust MCs (2+ save Tyrants/carnifexes/etc.) The plasma gun is the best special weapon choice to handle this niche, given the all-or-nothing AP system. As Terminators are now MORE common than ever, and TMCs have suddenly come to their senses and decided to leave the poor bloody infantry alone, we still need these guns. So claims of "cheaper, therefore now better" are disingenuous if they neglect the total cost of actually fielding a competitive IG army.

What Defiler says. H.M.B.C. is just hyperventilating over nothing. All that ire is but hot air seeing as how the points cost are supposed to drop. 10 points, 15 points, it is irrelevant. Those cheaper heavy bolters and lascannon more than pay for this slight increase.

Agamemnon2 wrote:
Warseer, too, is taking it at face value without a shred of criticism. They decided that Mkoll could not be trusted.

Your reading facilities have obviously shut down temporarily. Never mind.

So does anyone else have WD 350 yet besides this dude on Bootcamp or whatever site it is? Can someone flash some more pics of what's coming yet?!?