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Why not use GH as a meat shield for your GH? The points are the same.

Yeah Grey Hunters make the better Shields. Blood Claws are there for charging, while the hunters hold the line.

Well thanks it was just a thought.

ph34r wrote:Blood claws with a wolf guard to allow them to fire before charging make them superior to standard assault marines. Without the wolf guard to lead them however they are worse.

Skyclaws (the ones being compared to assault marines) may not actually have a Wolf Guard.

So the only way to make them get that shooting attack (and thus have more attacks on the profile than standard assault marines albiet at Ws/bs3) is to add an IC with jump pack. I reccomend a wolf priest with meltabombs for fluff reasons and because preferred enemy will synergise nicely with the unit. Meltabombs give a hail mary attempt to fend off any walkers the skyclaws might end up in cc with.

So has anyone done a head count as to how many helmetless and screaming heads we get in each box of SW tacticals?
EDIT: bravelybravesirrobin is correct, sky claws cannot take a WG according to these rumors. I had them mixed up with swift claws. They are pretty worthless if this is true. In fact, incredibly worthless.

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:

ph34r wrote:Blood claws with a wolf guard to allow them to fire before charging make them superior to standard assault marines. Without the wolf guard to lead them however they are worse.

Skyclaws (the ones being compared to assault marines) may not actually have a Wolf Guard.

So the only way to make them get that shooting attack (and thus have more attacks on the profile than standard assault marines albiet at Ws/bs3) is to add an IC with jump pack. I reccomend a wolf priest with meltabombs for fluff reasons and because preferred enemy will synergise nicely with the unit. Meltabombs give a hail mary attempt to fend off any walkers the skyclaws might end up in cc with.

If this is true, then Skyclaws are objectively worse than Assault Marines.

sourclams wrote:Well, let's look for an actually realistic scenario: 15 Blood Claws in a LRC. I say this because nobody -- nobody, folks -- is going to have "balanced" squads of footslogging blood claws. BCs are a shock and awe weapon much like a Death Strike missile; always have been, always will be, and even more so now that GH cost the same amount. The ONLY reason to take BCs compared to the all-around better GH is to get 60 attacks piling out of a LRC.

15 BCs versus Orks: 60 attacks, 30 hits, 15 wounds. That's 12 dead Boyz and a wounded Nob. Then the Boyz swing back, and kill off 4 BCs. The Nob kills another 2. So Orks lose by 7 and we'll say 5 more die to Fearless, putting them at 12 in the squad. BCs attack again killing 3. WHOA WTF 3??? Yeah, 3. Then nine Orks swing back and kill 2, and the Nob kills 2 more. Blood Claws just lost combat.

Moral of the story: BCs don't have staying power. What made them good before was that they were four points cheaper than a GH and could take three powerfists with 12 powerfist attacks. Now they don't have fists (well, one, whoopiee) and cost the same amount as the guys with bolters and specials who aren't WS4 or too slowed to shoot. Unless you're pairing them with Ragnar, just take Grey Hunters.

I agree completely with this assesment that BC's exist now purely to fill an LRC as a big scary shock and awe charge unit.

However I don't think the scenario above is particularly fair. You will always add that WG and a p-fist giving you 6 p-fist attacks on the charge + the WG allows for the BC's to fire their pistols (and any flamers) which tips things a little in their favour again.

So lets look at 14Bc's with fist + WG charging out of a raider against 30 slugga boys (please note my math is horrible).

14 bs 3 pistols shots, half hit so 7, half wound so 3.5 (lets add in the more likely to hit WG's shot here and say 4 wounds) = 4 dead orks.

52 init 4 attacks, 26 hit, 13 wound, average of 11 orks dead

The 14 orks left get to swing 3 times so 42 attacks, 2/3 hit so 28hits, 1/3 wounds so say about 9 wounds, 1/3 die so 3 dead BC's.

Nob gets to swing, 3 attacks, 2 hit probably 2 dead so 11/5 now.

6 p-fist attacks, half hit lets say 2 wound again (although odds are closer to 3 wounds) 13/5. There are 11 orks left so they take 8 fearless saves but if you had reduced the mob beforehand by only 1 or 2 models (maybe through use of a flamer?) than odds are you just broke that 30 strong mob of orks in one turn with 1 unit (and an LRC).

Adding the wolfguard gives them just enough of an edge to be an excellent charging unit.

Even if you didn't break them with 8 fearless saves there are likely only 5 models left in the mob now, they aren't going to win cc against the Bc's next turn.

Adding an IC helps them out even further and turns them into a unit that can potentially take on things like khorne berserkers, nob bikers (they'll need a little bit of softening up first), th/ss termies, etc. Particularly if you take saga of the warior born as that helps mitigate that 2nd turn of assault when the cc ability of the unit plummets.

They aren't amazing. They NEED the charge to work and that means an LRC and possibly an IC which turns them into a pointsink eggs in one basket kind of unit. But a wolf lord with warrior born and a frostblade, a wolf guard with fist and 13 Bc's (one with fist) gives you a unit that on the charge can reliably deal with any of your opponent's scary lynchpin units.

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:
They aren't amazing. They NEED the charge to work and that means an LRC and possibly an IC which turns them into a pointsink eggs in one basket kind of unit. But a wolf lord with warrior born and a frostblade, a wolf guard with fist and 13 Bc's (one with fist) gives you a unit that on the charge can reliably deal with any of your opponent's scary lynchpin units.

Wolf Lord: 190-ish points, HQ slot
Wolf Guard with Fist: 55 points, Elites slot
Blood Claws with Fist: 220 points
Land Raider Crusader: 255 points

Seven Hundred and Twenty Points.

Compare this to a Cassius/AssTerms Raider:

125 + 280+ 255 = 660 points and it'll kill anything the BC unit can plus some other stuff that it can't.

I agree with you that Blood Claws can be used effectively with the right build in a specific type of army, but adding more points to improve an average unit ... doesn't.

sourclams wrote:

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:
They aren't amazing. They NEED the charge to work and that means an LRC and possibly an IC which turns them into a pointsink eggs in one basket kind of unit. But a wolf lord with warrior born and a frostblade, a wolf guard with fist and 13 Bc's (one with fist) gives you a unit that on the charge can reliably deal with any of your opponent's scary lynchpin units.

Wolf Lord: 190-ish points, HQ slot
Wolf Guard with Fist: 55 points, Elites slot
Blood Claws with Fist: 220 points
Land Raider Crusader: 255 points

Seven Hundred and Twenty Points.

Compare this to a Cassius/AssTerms Raider:

125 + 280+ 255 = 660 points and it'll kill anything the BC unit can plus some other stuff that it can't.

I agree with you that Blood Claws can be used effectively with the right build in a specific type of army, but adding more points to improve an average unit ... doesn't.

Again not entirely fair.

I'll go with 190pts for a wolf lord but I think you can run that cheaper (and a wolfpriest or WGBL would synch well with this unit too)
A wolfguard with fist is only 38pts 18 + 20 for the fist. dunno where you got 55 from, possibly you assumed TDA? It does use an elite slot but WG seem pretty mandatory for Wolves and definitely mandatory for Bc's (+3pts to add +1 attack to everyone in the squad, uh, yes please).
13 BC's + fist = 215
LRC = 255

so 698. 38 pts more than the termies and I'm sure you could shave those pts from the Wolf lord and if using a wolf priest drop them to less than the termie for a comparable unit (in many circumstances).

The termies still come out looking better I agree. I fundamentally agree with your points about BC's and we have a roughly equivalent assesment of them but I don't think you are being quite fair about them.

In fact lets compare them with the th/ss termies. Ignoring IC's for now my unit of 14BC's plus Wg, 2 fists comes out at 523, 6 TH/SS termies in the LRC comes out as 533. Lets see how the slightly more expensive termies do against the orks.

29 orks (okay so not all of them can get in to attack but its hard to factor that kind of thing in when mathhammering) get to swing first with 87 attacks, 1/2 hit so 43.5, 2/3 wound so roughly 14, 1/6 dies so about 2 dead termies.

4 termies get to swing 3 times so 12 attacks, 6 hit, 5 wound, 5 dead orks. The p-klaw probably won't add another terminator so 3 fearless saves means probably 3 dead orks.

Next turn orks attack again, 63 attacks now, 31.5 hit, 10 wound 1/2 dead termies.

3 termies swing 6 times, 3 hits, 3 dead orks, 2 more dead to fearless, klaw adds nothing.

Next turn 1 dead termie. In response 2 dead orks. The orks will slowly whittle down the terminators and eventually win whereas the claws broke them on the first turn.

Now obviously i'm not saying TH/SS termies are bad because obviously they have advantages that make them a fantastic unit, mostly the ability to wander through enemy fire without really caring, fantastic cc ability vs certain elite units BC's would struggle against (howling banshees, genestealers), resilience and staying power and not being entirely reliant on the charge.

But give BC's that charge and they'll break pretty much any infantry (with a small i) unit in the game. Only high init power weapon weilders survive because they cut them down before they get the swings in.

In summary, they become a pointsink, they're quite fragile and they're less tactically flexible than a Grey Hunter unit but they are bloody good on the charge still. I would only ever take 1 unit of them, only then in a primarily mech list and even then I'm not sure i'm convinced but they do have a role.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A couple of people have mentioned skyclaws being "worthless" because they can't have a WGPL.

I'm kind of in agreement, the lack of the extra fist and the control of head strong really, really hurts them.

But lets see how they run with an IC to mitigate headstrong. I suggest a Wolf Priest because a) its cheap b ) I can't really picture a Wolf Lord or WGBL with a jump pack, it seems undignified, whereas Wolf Priests are supposed to run with the new pups to train them up and c) preferred enemy synergises nicely with their roll.

So we're looking at about 330pts here (I don't have the new codex on me but I believe 200 for 10 SC with a fist, 100 for the priest and 25-30 for his jump pack) as opposed to the nearly 600pts for the LRC based pack. The JP's fulfill roughly the same role as the LRC, ensuring the Claws get the charge although obviously it is better at that, provides protection from incoming fire and has a ton of guns so it is duble the price.

How well do the SC's do on the charge? Lets give them that same 30man slugga mob (not that it is remotely realistic).

11 bp shots yeilds 6 hits (WP is BS5) and so 3 dead orks.

32 regular attacks nets 24 hits due to preferred enemy, 12 wounds, 10 dead orks

4 attacks from the priest net 3.75 hits another 2 dead orks.

14 orks attack back with 42 attacks, about 14 hits, about 5 wounds, about 2 dead BC's.

so 12/2 at the moment.

p-fist swing 3 times, 2.25 hits probably another 2 dead orks 14/2 and the nob swing 3 times grabbing another 2 BC'.s 14/4, 10 fearless saves probably 9 dead orks drops the unit down to a mere 3 models. And again with a tiny bit of softening up such as a flamer would provide the Skyclaws have broken a 30 strong fearless unit in one turn of combat. For less pts than the troops option.

Skyclaws look like a considerably more competitive option than Bloodclaws do. They hit almost as well and actually slightly better if you add the Priest, have jump packs to ensure the charge and cost much, much less. The only drawbacks being that they aren't troops, really do need the priest (otherwise they are pretty terrible) and are more vulnerable to enemy shooting. Both units are glass cannons that need the charge though.

Still, I'd be much happier if the lack of wolfguard turns out to be a typo.

For me, my eyes just lit up as I realised that I could do the following things -

Take a Deathwing army properly, with nice weaponry, small or big squads depending on what I wanted. True, it would be the most outnumbered army ever EVER, especially if I added the Stormcaller in for added laughs, and footslogging too, but man, on the days that army goes right, it will be golden.

Also, thinking about it, if you had a unit of 10 with basic loadouts and 2 cyclones, Grimnar could give them tankhunting for some very decent AV14 killing power.

And the squad would only cost 390 (before logan)

Save the points on a large BC squad + Crusader and just go for 1-2 units of 4 TWC with SS and 1 TH. These guys tear through infantry better and can even kill tanks on a good rending roll.

With 15 Rending Str 5 regular attacks on the charge and then 5 Rending Str 10 TH attacks, not much can stand against them.

If i'm correct about this (I've never used anything with Rending before), if the TWC roll a 6 for the Armour Pen roll, they roll an additional D3 and add it to the score...
Which if my math is right is a number between 12 and 14. So they can glance AV:14!!! Then you have the TH back up if the regular attacks don't work.

It is an expensive unit (Roughly 345 pts), but it can kill more than the BC and Crusader over the course of a game.

I use them as an escort for characters, but they are an escort that are superfast and can kill stuff.

IMHO anyway.

Hulksmash wrote:And the squad would only cost 390 (before logan)

Sarcasm? I think its not bad value, but hey. Plus that unit of 10, using frag missiles as well, would absolutely demolish horde armies for at least 2 turns.

Same deal as 10 termies, same load out, with Lysander.

So Logan makes Wolf Guard scoring. That means Sws can make a psuedo Deathwing -- everyone knows that. What we have heard though as a consilation to deathwing players, that it would be expensive. Yet you can make a pretty amusing list at 2k.

Logan Grimnar

5 WG Terminators
5 WG Terminators
5 WG Terminators
5 WG Terminators
^ Dedicated Land Raider Redeemer, MM

Land Raider Redeemer, MM
Land Raider Redeemer, MM
Land Raider Redeemer, MM

Leaves you 65 points, plenty to upgrade a raider or two to crusader if you like, hand out some fists, frosts blades and maybe a couple of combi meltas. The guys going with Logan should be geared to take advantage of tank hunter and preferred enemy (so fist and a few frost blades).

Doable at 1750 and 1850 by going with 3x terminator/raiders and subbing speeders. Can also do this at 2k and make it a stronger list I think (but the ability to get 4 squads of termies with rides is pretty slick and something no other army can do).

Or what about terminator drop pod spam? Like above but replace the raiders with pods, maybe some more terminator squads, some beacons and speeders. Maybe a rune priest or two. Another list with potential.

So how many Lone Wolves can you run? 3? it looked like a single was an elite slot.

I currently own
1 Wolf Priest (13th Co guy)
2 Wolf Guard in PA
5 Wulfen
3 Bikers
10 Grey Hunters, Special and power weapons per last book
10 Blood Claws, Special and power weapons per last book

Can somebody tell me the rough points of the above, or at least how I can use what I have.

I am sure it wouldn't be very good, but running as many MoWulfen as possible could be fun. Once.

Wulfen are not a unit any more. You can give various models "mark of the wolfen" to represent wulfen guys.

Yes, I know. I picked that up from the collected post.

I was thinking of as many Wolf Guard, HQ, and Lone Wolves as Mark of Wulfen as I can to use uo those that I have.

I think it fits the Lone Wolves well, but I would like to use up all 5 guys in a list.

So it looks like 3 Lone Wolves, and 2 Wolf Guard, all with MoW.

It makes me glad I held off buying more of the Wulfen when I had the chance.

I'd personally sell those Wulfen models on Ebay.

They go for a nice amount of cash.

Is the rumour that a Wolf Lord makes 1 unit of Wolf Guard scoring discounted? Thought I heard it somewhere...

advanced order is up

Is the codex worded so Fenrisian/Cyberwolves have ATSKNF?

ubermosher wrote:Is the codex worded so Fenrisian/Cyberwolves have ATSKNF?

Nope, their special rules are counter attack and the ability to be stuck in a transport when taken as wargear

With regards to Fenrisian Wolves, I think it might be worth looking into taking a character with Saga of the Wolfkin. It gives fenrisian wolves/cyber-wolves I5 and ld7. Access to fast, inexpensive I5 units is useful and, if you keep them near something with Saga of Magesty, they (hopefully!) won't be running away.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Stygian Mole wrote:Is the rumour that a Wolf Lord makes 1 unit of Wolf Guard scoring discounted? Thought I heard it somewhere...

The only models that modify your Force Org chart are Canis (Fenrisian Wolves as Troops) and Logan (WG as troops.)

Stygian Mole wrote:Is the rumour that a Wolf Lord makes 1 unit of Wolf Guard scoring discounted? Thought I heard it somewhere...

Only Logan lets you take WG as troops (and he has no limit).

ubermosher wrote:Is the codex worded so Fenrisian/Cyberwolves have ATSKNF?

No.

I noticed the same thing as a previous poster, WG can't join BC with jump packs. They can join BCs with bikes, BCs on foot, but not with jump packs (but WG have the option to buy a jumppack), Long Fangs, GHs, and Scouts. I think it's an oversight, but unless GW would errata it (which I doubt, since they usually pull a Sgt. Schultz with errors like these), no WG can join the unit. The lack of lots of powerfists, coupled with points increases, I just don't see me fielding any BCs. I could maybe see taking a 15-man unit with Lukas, a Wolf Priest, and stuffing them in a LRC for APOC, but that's about it. If BCs were WS 4 and/or had Furious Charge (along with more than one power weapon), they might find a place in my army. GHs can pretty much do anything BCs on foot can do, and do it better. The jumppack troops, without an attached WG, are junk. The bikers, which can have a WG, are okay - but nothing special. I could see having a unit for the mobility. But, I could have a unit of 10 fenrisian wolves for about the same price as 3 bikes. The wolves are a lot less durable, but they're a cheap distraction unit. Plus, Land Speeders keep looking better and better to me (even though I think they're a little too pricey for what you get). And Wolves on Wolves, while twice the points of a BC on bike, are +1 WS, BS, S, T, A, and can take a lot more power weapons and other goodies. And having 5 unique T5, Sv3+, W2 models makes the unit able to abuse wound allocation.

Is the rumour that a Wolf Lord makes 1 unit of Wolf Guard scoring discounted? Thought I heard it somewhere...

That has been disproven by several folks. Only Logan makes them troops.

if you keep them near something with Saga of Magesty, they (hopefully!) won't be running away.

Thunderwolf Cavalry also have a similar affect on fen wolves (fen wolves reroll failed morale tests if within 12" of thunderwolf cavalry).

Also much like servitors, they do not benefit from ATSKNF unless a marine is part of the unit.

Here is a thought
-Ragnar
-Canis
-Cyber Wolves

Put Rangnar with the Cyber Wolves

dietrich wrote:And Wolves on Wolves, while twice the points of a BC on bike, are +1 WS, BS, S, T, A, and can take a lot more power weapons and other goodies. And having 5 unique T5, Sv3+, W2 models makes the unit able to abuse wound allocation.

The wolves on wolves get stupid expensive, stupid fast. Two TWC with TH and SS cost around 70pts more than a full squad of GH (with no special cc weapon). That's almost a monolith!

I wouldn't be kitting all the Wolves on Wolves with TH and SS. I wouldn't even give one model both. SS's are stupidly expensive for SWs. I think you go for some cheapish upgrades to help differentiate them. Go with 1 Powerfist, 1 power weapon, 1 meltabombs, 1 frost blade, 1 MotW (if they can get it), etc. I forget all their upgrades, I haven't looked too closely at the unit. Just give each model (but one) 1 upgrade each (and go with as many 5 point upgrades as possible).

Can you put one wolf guard from multiple wolf guard squads onto the same GH squad? (example: three WG squads adding three cyclones to a long fang squad)

dietrich wrote:I wouldn't be kitting all the Wolves on Wolves with TH and SS. I wouldn't even give one model both. SS's are stupidly expensive for SWs. I think you go for some cheapish upgrades to help differentiate them. Go with 1 Powerfist, 1 power weapon, 1 meltabombs, 1 frost blade, 1 MotW (if they can get it), etc. I forget all their upgrades, I haven't looked too closely at the unit. Just give each model (but one) 1 upgrade each (and go with as many 5 point upgrades as possible).

I would give one model a stormshield just to absorb AP2/AP1 weps, and the rest as you describe, cheap, single upgrades, differentiated so you can abuse wound allocation.

for example, a marine player shoots his 10 man tactical squad with a las cannon/plasma gun at your 5 independantly equiped TWC within 12"

15 bolter shots, 10 hits, 4 wounds, between the las/plas you are going to average 2 hits, which will both wound.

6 wounds to allocate, 4 bolter wounds on your 4 normal guys who each have a 66% chance for survival, and the stormshield guy gets the las/plas wounds and has a 44% chance for survival. but none die automatically.

Another big limiting factor of the wolves on wolves is base size -- the only one we've seen so far is at least on a 60mm base. Sure you can bring a squad of 5, but if they're on dreadnought bases, how are you going to get them anywhere useful?