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Trasvi wrote:

plastictrees wrote:It's not just about physical models though, which is why the auto industry is a bad analogy. Ford doesn't have series of books, games, illustrations etc. about the Ford Funkenhammer and it's various adventures which it releases prior to actually producing the Ford Funkenhammer.

GW does not have a series of books, games and illustrations relating to the Tervigon or the Doom of Malantai. They have short paragraphs and single images which are insufficient to make GW's expression of the concept of 'brood bug' and 'brain bug' unique enough to be protectable as characters. CHS most probably could not produce a Sanguinus or Horus model, because they have a lot of story behind them which makes them characters.

I'm talking in general terms as we don't really know exactly what issues GW is bringing up. You're the one referring specifically to the Doom model. Even in that case CH didn't produce a "brain bug" they produced a model that they literally called the Doom of Malantai.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Thanks a lot Chapterhouse. Thanks to you we won't be getting a second wave of tournament legal, proper Tyranid models.

I am now literally steaming with rage.

I'm really neither here nor there with Chapterhouse. I have their Storm Raven kits, and I think they're ace. I have some of their shoulder pads, and if I'd known they were metal rather than resin I would've ordered more. Some of their stuff is terrible, like their badly sculpted asymmetrical hammers, and some of their stuff is great, like their nifty combi-weapon kit.

I am also of the opinion that less hubris at the beginning could have had them avoid this whole situation. Having so many things labelled with GW names was unnecessary and stunk of Internet Bravado. It doesn't matter if their law advisors at the start said it was technically ok, it just wasn't necessary. The names that are up there now are 100 adequate and they should have always been that way.

But the idea that they're holding up GW releases is just nonsense, and even a forced manual shut down of my cynicism synapses can't help but see this as someone's pathetic attempt at trying to turn people against Chapterhouse. It wouldn't be GW doing it, but one of their White Knights - the type of White Knight that not only loves GW with every fibre of their being, but actually hates other game companies and especially 3rd party product makers (no, not your Aggy - your calls of 'parasite' are as overblown as they are hilarious, but you're morose and melancholy, not malicious).

Squigsquasher wrote:Thanks a lot Chapterhouse. Thanks to you we won't be getting a second wave of tournament legal, proper Tyranid models.

notsureifserious.jpg

I love how, based on rumors and conjecture, that people just assume that Chapterhouse is the reason that GW isn't producing models. It cannot be based on poor sales of a poor codex. It must be Chapterhouse. Not the other, 3 minimum, 3rd party companies that are making 'nid stuff. Just Chapterhouse. It amazes me that as a species we still exist with this many people around that cannot understand logic.

Now that being said, Nick, I believe that you do great work. I hope that when this is over that you are going to continue. Now since I do not have a warbuggie that isn't older than my kids I would like to see something in the near future. I do not care if you or GW or someone else produces it. I do not care if it is tourney legal. I just care about it looking awesome. Oh, and bits to make a warboss that is significantly larger than an ork boy.

The thing is that Chapterhouse is the only one specifically stating that their kits are part of the 40K universe. THIS is why GW is attacking them. If they had just described them as generic sci-fi...things, then there probably wouldn't have been a problem.

I think.

This was said when the whole thing blew up and seems to be relevant still:

CHS just were being open and honest
When we see "Shoulder Pads" we know what the intention is. It ain't for a 80's cossie for Barbie and Ken.

But somehow (ethically) this is somehow better than calling a spade a spade. Curse you CHS for being open about your products usage.

If the original point of OP would be true, then GW once again proves that it just cannot wrap it's head around the fact that law is not what they imagine it to be.

It would be trivially simple to release things in multiple waves. By registering the names of models as trademarks before the release of Codex for those which don't get a model immediately.

Frankly I hope that GWs "fortress wall" is shown to be consisting of paper and wooden frames.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:But somehow (ethically) this is somehow better than calling a spade a spade. Curse you CHS for being open about your products usage.

There's a difference between "These are for use with Space Marines" and "These are Space Marine parts".

So did CHS say they were SM parts?

Even if they did, how many people were fooled into thinking that they were made by GW and not Chapterhouse?

My point still stands. We all know that Scribor et al are making parts for GW products. We all know that Chapterhouse are making parts for GW products.

The rest is semantics.

At the start yeah they did. They didn't make shoulder pads for Salamanders, they made Salamander shoulder pads. They didn't make a conversion kit to make a Chaplain, they made a Chaplain conversion kit. Believe it or not, there is a difference.

And being 'fooled' isn't the point. I don't start selling cars and tell everyone that they're Ford cars when they're not.

And it's not semantics. Names actually do mean something. Scibor never mentions 40K products on his site. He makes Celtic Knights and Templar Knights and other guys that either don't reference 40K directly or are such generic terms (like 'Templar') that it doesn't matter. Chapterhouse didn't just make an Eldar Farseer on a bike kit, they called it an Eldar Farseer on a bike (rather than 'Conversion kit for an Eldar Jetbike' or 'Generic Non-Specific Non-40K Related Conversion Kit Name').

H.B.M.C. wrote:At the start yeah they did. They didn't make shoulder pads for Salamanders, they made Salamander shoulder pads. They didn't make a conversion kit to make a Chaplain, they made a Chaplain conversion kit. Believe it or not, there is a difference.

And they fixed that at the start of the whole debacle. Sure the original naming was wrong but not the current one.

As I understand it being fooled is important.
It is one of the reasons for bringing an action against a producer.
If customers genuinely believes they have purchased a GW product, for example, when it is the work of Ivor Ripov.

Again we still know what Scribor are doing whatever they call it, the function is still the same. No one is under the impression not even GW that Scribor generic space knight shoulder pads are for converting Scibor generic space knights.

Whatever you say or call it the spade is for digging a GW shaped hole.

Hena wrote:And they fixed that at the start of the whole debacle. Sure the original naming was wrong but not the current one.

I know that, but that's not what I'm saying (or even arguing). What they've got now is fine, but all I'm saying is I'm sure a lot of this could have been avoided if the current naming scheme had been adopted right from the start.

You are doubtless correct there HBMC but tbh it has at least given GW pause for thought.

CHS got lucky with the pro bono legal representation maybe, but if the outcome is to provide some guidelines in the future and maybe make GW reconsider some of their more aggressive and unecessary C&D actions then so be it.

Hena wrote:Frankly I hope that GWs "fortress wall" is shown to be consisting of paper and wooden frames.

Well you get what you pay for. They couldn't afford stone and concrete because they gave all that money to the shareholders.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:CHS got lucky with the pro bono legal representation maybe, but if the outcome is to provide some guidelines in the future and maybe make GW reconsider some of their more aggressive and unecessary C&D actions then so be it.

And maybe we'll get that Lammasu (SP?) head in the end!

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Hena wrote:And they fixed that at the start of the whole debacle. Sure the original naming was wrong but not the current one.

I know that, but that's not what I'm saying (or even arguing). What they've got now is fine, but all I'm saying is I'm sure a lot of this could have been avoided if the current naming scheme had been adopted right from the start.

I doubt that. I think CH was making too much money with stuff involving 40k that GW wanted to bash them away. AFAIK they asked for destruction of moulds and not change in website. Only thing that made the game interesting was the pro-bono legal aid that CH got. Without that the GW might have gotten their way.

Hena wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Hena wrote:And they fixed that at the start of the whole debacle. Sure the original naming was wrong but not the current one.

I know that, but that's not what I'm saying (or even arguing). What they've got now is fine, but all I'm saying is I'm sure a lot of this could have been avoided if the current naming scheme had been adopted right from the start.

I doubt that. I think CH was making too much money with stuff involving 40k that GW wanted to bash them away. AFAIK they asked for destruction of moulds and not change in website. Only thing that made the game interesting was the pro-bono legal aid that CH got. Without that the GW might have gotten their way.

What nonsense.

I just wanted to clarify a few things regarding my own, earlier posts.

First of all I would like to apologise to the guys at Chapterhouse. I never imagined that my comments would cause so much debate, and I also feel in hindsight that whilst reading back through my comments they may have been a little inflammatory.

That was never my intention.

I am not a GW White Knight. I am an avid (some would say obsessive) 40K fan, and I do support GW when I think they are right but disagree with a lot of their current policies.

However I will admit that I do come into things from a GW perspective, and maybe that was unfair to the guys at CHS and for that I regret the tone of my posts.

I should also try to clarify some of the content, as it seems to be focussed mainly on CHS.

The court case with CHS may set a precedent that would allow other third party suppliers to challenge GW over their IP. That's why Thunderwolves were mentioned, as well as some other 3rd party products.

So although the suit against CHS may be testing the water it may have wider implications in the long run, but again I am not sure how fair it would be to blame CHS for that as we don't have all the facts.

And I didn't say that there would not be a Tyranid second wave, just that under advisement from their legal team it had been delayed.

I don't know exactly what delayed means as I don't know when it was due to be released, but I know that some of the models due have been in the planing process for over two years.

There are new 'Nid models coming, but they will be White Dwarf additions to the Codex, similar to the Ogre Kingdoms or Eldar Night Spinner (?).

They will be combi-kits which will allegedly allow GW to skirt the IP issue, as well as a large kit along the lines size wise of the Stone Horn / Terrorgheist.

There was mentioned a possibilty that the lawsuit may also be holding up other releases, but purely because their development is on hold whilst legal advice is gained.

I also just want to point out that this was a rumour, albeit from a good source, and should be treated as such.

If I had known how much fuss would have been caused I probably wouldn't have posted at all, but I would like to say I don't have an axe to grind with CHS as I don't know the whole story and wish my original comments had been more neutral. So apologies to Nick et al.

What nerd drama in our community. Thanks for the Rifts pics, very nostalgic. That game sure was fun.

I said it, and I'll say it again:
It's GW's own fault. Compnies like CH only exist because GW fails to deliver what the people want to buy.
Case in point, the Ogre Release. Nobody is going to produce Mournfang Cavarly, because they are already official models.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Hena wrote:And they fixed that at the start of the whole debacle. Sure the original naming was wrong but not the current one.

I know that, but that's not what I'm saying (or even arguing). What they've got now is fine, but all I'm saying is I'm sure a lot of this could have been avoided if the current naming scheme had been adopted right from the start.

Thats what I was saying!

[But for the record I do not think the website was changed until after legal action was begun]
Come join me on this charger HBMC.

"Two little boys had two little toys
Each had a wooden horse
Gaily they played each summers day
Warriors both of cause............."

Ahem....er...sorry....er.... what were we discussing?

Squigsquasher wrote:I am now literally steaming with rage.

Could you send pics? I've never seen anyone literally steam with rage before. Does the steam come out of your sweat glands or something?

H.B.M.C. wrote:And being 'fooled' isn't the point. I don't start selling cars and tell everyone that they're Ford cars when they're not.

Yeah, being 'fooled' is kind of the whole point, at least for trademarks. Copyright infringement tends to be more mechanical (Is element X copyrighted? Does it exist in products A and B? Is element Y copyrighted? Does it exist in products A and B?)

Warboss Gubbinz wrote:Simpler way of saying it: You can't sue me for something you yourself are guilty of.

Did i get this right, andrew, biccat?

Sort of. There are two different paths this line of thinking can take. First, are GW's works actually copyrighted and second, does the defense of "unclean hands" apply?

The first inquiry, whether GW's works are copyright-eligible, is a question of law. If GW copied the original works it is not the original author and cannot obtain copyright protection for their works under the copyright statute. If GW's works are merely derivative of the original works they copied from, then they also cannot claim copyright protection on the new work as a whole.

The second inquiry, unclean hands, is a question of equity. When a court sits in equity they try to decide what is equitable (fair) to both parties. The defense of unclean hands basically says (as you said above) you can't sue me for something you yourself are guilty of.

There's a higher standard for a finding of unclean hands. If GW innocently but technically copied someone else's work, the first defense would be good and the second not. But if GW maliciously and intentionally copied someone else's work, then you'd have a better case of unclean hands.

plastictrees wrote:

Hena wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Hena wrote:And they fixed that at the start of the whole debacle. Sure the original naming was wrong but not the current one.

I know that, but that's not what I'm saying (or even arguing). What they've got now is fine, but all I'm saying is I'm sure a lot of this could have been avoided if the current naming scheme had been adopted right from the start.

I doubt that. I think CH was making too much money with stuff involving 40k that GW wanted to bash them away. AFAIK they asked for destruction of moulds and not change in website. Only thing that made the game interesting was the pro-bono legal aid that CH got. Without that the GW might have gotten their way.

What nonsense.

In what sense? That they were making money from people who liked 40k? Note that I considered that GW doesn't want others to start making money with anything regards to 40k. Most other companies (like Kings of War) produce fantasy miniatures. Pig Iron makes heads and human infantry. Perhaps I could have written 'any money' instead of 'too much money', but in this case they might be equivalent for GW.

Hena wrote:

plastictrees wrote:

Hena wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Hena wrote:And they fixed that at the start of the whole debacle. Sure the original naming was wrong but not the current one.

I know that, but that's not what I'm saying (or even arguing). What they've got now is fine, but all I'm saying is I'm sure a lot of this could have been avoided if the current naming scheme had been adopted right from the start.

I doubt that. I think CH was making too much money with stuff involving 40k that GW wanted to bash them away. AFAIK they asked for destruction of moulds and not change in website. Only thing that made the game interesting was the pro-bono legal aid that CH got. Without that the GW might have gotten their way.

What nonsense.

In what sense? That they were making money from people who liked 40k? Note that I considered that GW doesn't want others to start making money with anything regards to 40k. Most other companies (like Kings of War) produce fantasy miniatures. Pig Iron makes heads and human infantry. Perhaps I could have written 'any money' instead of 'too much money', but in this case they might be equivalent for GW.

In the sense that you are talking nonsense. The sentences that you are typing are nonsensical.
"GW sued CH because they were making money!". Brilliant.

Kanluwen wrote:Furthermore, it's also worth noting that the Mobile Infantry that Heinlein described wore what would be considered 'battle suits' and not 'powered armor'.

...Don't look at me like that. I can let the nerd flag fly here on Dakka, curse you!

Actually, this is not correct. The suits in Starship Troopers absolutely were powered armor. The suits are specifically described as magnifying the strength of the wearer by using a negative feedback system to match and magnify the natural movements of the wearer. There is a line that states that a MI in a suit could swap hugs with an ape, and the ape would be crushed. Additionally, the suits had "jump" capability. If the wearer made a particularly vigorous jumping motion, it would kick in a jet assisted extended jump.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

plastictrees wrote:How could the same be said of CH designers? Change what in my post to CH related items? I mention one imaginary scenario and no GW or CH items whatsoever. Really, explain what you're talking about. How is drawing inspiration from movies, books etc. the same as reproducing imagery used by another miniature company to be used in the game that miniature company produces? I'm not even making a moral judgement here, I'm just saying the "GW is not the originalz!" scenario that everyone always trots out is not the same thing at all.

Watching a movie and using that for inspiration to build a model is no different than reading a codex and using that as inspiration for building a model. Heck, I could even use your model for inspiration for building my model, as long as it wasn't so identical as to be considered a copy.

I only hope that this will encourage GW to revise their current marketign strategy....or lack thereof.

As has been stated several times. if they release production/pre-relase images of WIPS or 3-ups or greens etc then this whole issue could be avoided as they would basically be announcing to the world "Hey, look at this model that we have made and will be releasing at some point!"

from what i understand from reading this, that would establish their copyright and they could still keep the whole wave release schedule.

biccat wrote:
The first inquiry, whether GW's works are copyright-eligible, is a question of law. If GW copied the original works it is not the original author and cannot obtain copyright protection for their works under the copyright statute. If GW's works are merely derivative of the original works they copied from, then they also cannot claim copyright protection on the new work as a whole.

The second inquiry, unclean hands, is a question of equity. When a court sits in equity they try to decide what is equitable (fair) to both parties. The defense of unclean hands basically says (as you said above) you can't sue me for something you yourself are guilty of.

There's a higher standard for a finding of unclean hands. If GW innocently but technically copied someone else's work, the first defense would be good and the second not. But if GW maliciously and intentionally copied someone else's work, then you'd have a better case of unclean hands.

Do you feel, in your personal opinion, that the defense of unclean hands has some merit and this is why the court is trying to force a settlement or is the court's decision to push a settlement more a procedural thing like telling two kids that they should have worked it out before their parents got involved?

There's a lot of people posting that they can't possibly see how GW could get in trouble with Chapterhouse of all people if they release their Farseer Jetbikes.

I stopped reading on page 6, so forgive me if this has already been posted.

The Eldar Farseer and Chapterhouse Doomseer are similar with noticable difference. It's understandable that GW is having a hard time suing CH over it.

Now theres a Doomseer on a Jetbike as an established and legit model. If GW makes a Farseer on a Jetbike, then CH can claim their design of a Doomseer on Jetbike was copied by GW.

Silly, idinit?

agnosto wrote:Do you feel, in your personal opinion, that the defense of unclean hands has some merit and this is why the court is trying to force a settlement or is the court's decision to push a settlement more a procedural thing like telling two kids that they should have worked it out before their parents got involved?

In my personal, not professional, opinion, I think a defense of unclean hands as to the source of GW's intellectual property would not be successful.

However, the defense of unclean hands as related to GW's actions during trial (particularly if this rumor turns out to have originated with GW) may have a better chance.

I don't know why the Court decided to push a settlement. It may be in the local rules to require a settlement conference. Given both sides' behavior during discovery, I don't think a settlement is likely. If there is a settlement, it's going to be bad for GW (that is, Chapterhouse won't be shut down, which appears to be GW's objective).