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Jimsolo wrote:For those who are interested, I’ve got some final results from my thread for tallying the true percentage of Ultramarine hatred, with 271 Dakkanauts weighing in. Before parties who shall remain nameless (but rhyme with squee) trolled the thread into oblivion, we managed to learn that 36.9% of respondents felt positively about the Ultramarines. Only 28.4% were neutral. A further 32.5% felt negatively about the Ultramarines, with the remaining voters declining to pigeonhole their nuanced views into a single declarative statement. Now, anyone familiar with polling and sampling understands that this isn’t perfectly objective, but it at least serves to give us a better idea of how many people actually dislike the Ultramarines.

I thought it was fairly representative. I think, to be fair, the people that claim to hate Ultramarines really just hate Mat Ward. It seems notable that his name cropped up a hell of a lot in the posts that derided them.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:You really do live in a strange world of Smurf Hate. In a chapter war, the Ultramarines bring their own fleet, the Ultramar Navy, and hundreds, if not thousands, of regiments of Imperial Guard level Ultramar PDF troopers, and thousands of years of combined arms experience to utilize them to their fullest.

Not only do the Ultramarines defeat any of those three Chapters, it defeats all three at the same time.


Again, like I've said before, we know the Ultramarines are the best. Somebody has to be the best. It might as well be the Ultramarines. I don't see any reason for people to dislike this fact. But, for those who insist on disliking that fact, they still have to accept that it is fact.

So you think these 1000 marines are worth 12000 other marines? Because these chapters don't have fleets? The grey knights have superior vessel by FAR, the Black Templars fleet dwarfs the UM fleet, being more akin to a GC fleet, and the Space Wolves are WOLVES IN SPAAAAACE!

Also, PDF are not an offensive force, there are not thousands of regiments of PDF on the UM dozen or so worlds, and also, you think the SW, BT and GK don't have thousands of years experience?

GK could curbstomp them easily by virtue of being more numerous and all being librarians more skilled than company champions of the smurfs, the Black templars have 6x more marines (the most conservative estimate. There are guesses as high as legion strength, 10,000) and being far better in CC, and the Space wolves are more numerous, have better equipment (Tac sergeants with termie armour) thunderwulves etc.

I would say they are the most accomplished codex-compliant chapter overall, but not better than specialist chapters at their given specialty.

Also, why would the UM get to call on allies but not the others? GK ties to the inquisition mean they could requisition unlimited resources and/or simply virus bomb all of Ultramar. Also, all IF successor are noted for having a very "tightly knit bond", including the whole Feast of Blades thing, meaning that the BT could likely call on all IF successors, whereas UM could not, because the sheer quantity of successors means they aren't especially close to their descendants.

Also, the IF fleet is also truly massive, with the Phalanx launching cruisers as if they were fighters at it's heart.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:You really do live in a strange world of Smurf Hate. In a chapter war, the Ultramarines bring their own fleet, the Ultramar Navy, and hundreds, if not thousands, of regiments of Imperial Guard level Ultramar PDF troopers, and thousands of years of combined arms experience to utilize them to their fullest.

Not only do the Ultramarines defeat any of those three Chapters, it defeats all three at the same time.


Again, like I've said before, we know the Ultramarines are the best. Somebody has to be the best. It might as well be the Ultramarines. I don't see any reason for people to dislike this fact. But, for those who insist on disliking that fact, they still have to accept that it is fact.

So you think these 1000 marines are worth 12000 other marines? Because these chapters don't have fleets? The grey knights have superior vessel by FAR, the Black Templars fleet dwarfs the UM fleet, being more akin to a GC fleet, and the Space Wolves are WOLVES IN SPAAAAACE!

Also, PDF are not an offensive force, there are not thousands of regiments of PDF on the UM dozen or so worlds, and also, you think the SW, BT and GK don't have thousands of years experience?

GK could curbstomp them easily by virtue of being more numerous and all being librarians more skilled than company champions of the smurfs, the Black templars have 6x more marines (the most conservative estimate. There are guesses as high as legion strength, 10,000) and being far better in CC, and the Space wolves are more numerous, have better equipment (Tac sergeants with termie armour) thunderwulves etc.

I would say they are the most accomplished codex-compliant chapter overall, but not better than specialist chapters at their given specialty.

Also, why would the UM get to call on allies but not the others? GK ties to the inquisition mean they could requisition unlimited resources and/or simply virus bomb all of Ultramar. Also, all IF successor are noted for having a very "tightly knit bond", including the whole Feast of Blades thing, meaning that the BT could likely call on all IF successors, whereas UM could not, because the sheer quantity of successors means they aren't especially close to their descendants.

Also, the IF fleet is also truly massive, with the Phalanx launching cruisers as if they were fighters at it's heart.

Few things, not all gk are equal to librarians. This has been expressed in the fiction, tabletop and codexes. Psyker yes, libby level no. Also their ships are meant for speed and getting to a location not space warfare. Thats what the Inquisition is for. Only thing to add though I do agree smurfs vs all 3 would be a horrid affair for the smurfs and they'd need Ward to write the battle to give them any chance to win.

You obviously missed, or willfully ignored everything I wrote before the line you quoted.

Which is fine, and your prerogative. But please don't expect me to engage you in intelligent debate if you're going to leave out the intelligence.

In fact, the Realm of Ultramar is so powerful, I'm going to go so far to say that they beat all three of those, and then still has the manpower to defeat their third Hive Fleet. 8000 or so BT, SW, & GK vs 1000 Ultramarines and ~3,000,000 Imperial Guardsmen, with the the fleets large enough to transport most of them.


Besides, WTF does the Black Templars specialization in CQB have to do with anything? If anything, it's a liability and weakness against the forces of Ultramar.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:You obviously missed, or willfully ignored everything I wrote before the line you quoted.

Which is fine, and your prerogative. But please don't expect me to engage you in intelligent debate if you're going to leave out the intelligence.

In fact, the Realm of Ultramar is so powerful, I'm going to go so far to say that they beat all three of those, and then still has the manpower to defeat their third Hive Fleet. 8000 or so BT, SW, & GK vs 1000 Ultramarines and ~3,000,000 Imperial Guardsmen, with the the fleets large enough to transport most of them.


Besides, WTF does the Black Templars specialization in CQB have to do with anything? If anything, it's a liability and weakness against the forces of Ultramar.

Because GW dictates that all marines must cut and or crush something in every battle.

Also, how does 6000 templars 3000 GK and 3000 SW=8000?

10 worlds. That's what the smurfs have. Most worlds raise 3-4 regiments, most regiments have ~2000, that's 60,000-80,000 IG. Also, the UM fleet is not even vaguely comparable to the BT fleet. The UM fleet is 13 capital ships strong. The BT, assuming the smallest estimates for their numbers are true, 6000, and that all their vessels are Battle-barges which carry 300 marines, would need a minimum of 20 capital ships. The reality is there would be a large number of strike cruisers in there, which would need 60 to carry the whole minimum BT army, and this is not even the estimates that are higher (10,000+).

The GK would need half the minimum numbers for BT, but would in reality have a lot more because they travel in much smaller numbers. Their ships are not designed specifically for naval combat, but no astartes ships are. In fact, purpose built anti-ship weapons are prohibited for astartes ships. GK ships are simply higher quality.

SW would also have a similar number, with at least 13 vessels because each company would need to be capable of deploying independently, and would, just like the UM, have a greater than usual number owing to it's legion heritage.

That would be a minimum of 40 ships, if they were all battlebarges, and somehow didn't have the ability to send individual companies to war.

The Phalanx alone could carry the UM fleet inside it.

And I am the one ignoring arguments?

I think it might be because they are too far out of proportions and reality...even for an already disproportional and unrealistic environment (You NEVER getanything without having some kind of flaw).

im2randomghgh wrote:Also, how does 6000 templars 3000 GK and 3000 SW=8000?

Your math keeps changing as you go along. How do you expect to be taken seriously? Now the Space Wolves and Grey Knights are 3000? Good lord dude.

10 worlds. That's what the smurfs have. Most worlds raise 3-4 regiments, most regiments have ~2000, that's 60,000-80,000 IG.

You made every single bit of this up on the fly. Not one thing quoted is correct. Or even remotely supported by the fluff. You even got the number of worlds of Ultramar wrong, lol.

Also, the UM fleet is not even vaguely comparable to the BT fleet. The UM fleet is 13 capital ships strong. The BT, assuming the smallest estimates for their numbers are true, 6000, and that all their vessels are Battle-barges which carry 300 marines, would need a minimum of 20 capital ships. The reality is there would be a large number of strike cruisers in there, which would need 60 to carry the whole minimum BT army, and this is not even the estimates that are higher (10,000+).

This is all incorrect and again entirely fabricated by your wild imagination. But you've been on a tear of just making stuff up. I don't think you've actually said one thing that was even remotely correct. It's like arguing with a delusional mental patient. You simply live in an entirely different world than anyone else. And when called on it, you just launch into an alternate tangent of absurdity.

I've joked about people's jibberish being Billy Madison worthy, but you've taken that cake, ran with it, gone to a bakery to buy seven more cakes, and taken those too. You get the video posted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEkWH8DB7b0

Now you're just wasting everyone's time, lol. I think we're done here.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Also, how does 6000 templars 3000 GK and 3000 SW=8000?

Your math keeps changing as you go along. How do you expect to be taken seriously? Now the Space Wolves and Grey Knights are 3000? Good lord dude. There is a four letter acronym that begins with G and ends with O that you can't do fast enough, or for long enough of a duration.

10 worlds. That's what the smurfs have. Most worlds raise 3-4 regiments, most regiments have ~2000, that's 60,000-80,000 IG.

You made every single bit of this up on the fly. Not one thing quoted is correct. Or even remotely supported by the fluff. You even got the number of worlds of Ultramar wrong, lol. Again, refer to the above.

Also, the UM fleet is not even vaguely comparable to the BT fleet. The UM fleet is 13 capital ships strong. The BT, assuming the smallest estimates for their numbers are true, 6000, and that all their vessels are Battle-barges which carry 300 marines, would need a minimum of 20 capital ships. The reality is there would be a large number of strike cruisers in there, which would need 60 to carry the whole minimum BT army, and this is not even the estimates that are higher (10,000+).

This is all incorrect and again entirely fabricated by your wild imagination. But you've been on a tear of just making gak up. I don't think you've actually said one thing that was even remotely correct. It's like arguing with a delusional mental patient. You simply live in an entirely different world than anyone else. And when called on it, you just launch into an alternate tangent of absurdity.

I've joked about people's jibberish being Billy Madison worthy, but you've taken that cake, ran with it, gone to a bakery to buy seven more cakes, and taken those too. You get the video posted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEkWH8DB7b0

We're done here. You forfeited when you just started pulling stuff from the deepest recesses of your gastro-intestinal system and trying to pass it off as an argument. Stop wasting my time son.

I did not change my math at any point. GK have been 3000 since the update. SW have always been 3000. BT have always been 6000+

And you're right. It is actually nine planets. This is ultramar:

Macragge - Capital and home to the Ultramarines fortress-monastery
Calth - Cavern World
Konor - Adeptus Mechanicus research world
Espandor (destroyed) - Cardinal World
Iax - "Garden World"
Parmenio - Training world
Prandium (destroyed)
Talassar - Ocean World
Talasa Prime - Inquisition fortress
The Three Planets:
Masali - Agri-World
Quintarn
Tarentus
Circe

That's thirteen. Two were destroy, two do not belong to the UM (Konor and Talasa Prime, belonging to the Admech and Inquisition, respectively).

There was one I forgot for sure, which is why I put it at 10.

As for recruitment: you can see in Savage Scars that the average guard yield of a planet is closer to 3-4 regiments per generation, rather than the output of certain military-only worlds like Krieg or Cadia which produce nothing but soldiers.

You can see from Imperial Glory, Dead Men Walking and the Gaunt's Ghosts series that the average regiment is around 2000 men.

You have yet to state a single fact. One. In fact, you have been trolling this entire thread and insulting me needlessly, despite my being able to source every single thing I have said and you yet to produce a single source.

Fleet of Ultramar:

Adsidus - Battle Barge
Aeternus - Battle Barge
Caesar - Battle Barge2a, destroyed
Emperor Incarnatus - Battle Barge
Lord Lamedon - Battle Barge
Octavius - Battle Barge
Pro Merito - Battle Barge; lost in the warp
Seditio Opprimere - Battle Barge
Severian - Battle Barge
Accipiter - Strike Cruiser
Fidelis - Strike Cruiser
Garra de Macragge - Strike Cruiser
Internecio - Strike Cruiser
Iter Splendere - Strike Cruiser
Vae Victus - Strike Cruiser
Valin's Revenge - Strike Cruiser

That's fifteen capital ships, but two destroyed/lost, leaving thirteen.

Now YOU stop wasting my time, and the time of everyone in the whole thread, before I report you to a Mod.

Oh and also, GK are librarian equivalents. Not epistolaries, codiciers.

Codex Grey Knights pg.7 wrote:Each Grey Knight is an accomplished, powerful psyker whose psychic presence is anathema to creatures of the Warp.

Abilites like cleansing flame and might and hammerhand are not something lesser psykers could accomplish.

im2randomghgh wrote: despite my being able to source every single thing I have said and you yet to produce a single source.

You've sourced nothing. You can't even keep your own numbers straight. Probably because you've been fetching them from thin air and making things up to fill in the Grand Canyon sized gaps. Three million PDF is a conservative estimate. By modern standards, a regiment would typically be approximately 3000 troops. And the US Marines have three divisions of three regiments plus one Reserve division alone (nevermind that's just infantry strength, not artillery, tanks, etc). That's 36,000 infantrymen, give or take, with just one branch of one nation's military on the planet Earth. That's not even the largest branch of the American military, and the US military isn't even the largest one on Earth. You're saying, in the grim darkness of the far future where there is only war, that Ultramar's worlds would have an average of, according to you, less than 10,000 PDF troopers each, despite their constant history of interstellar warfare, including multiple invasions by Tyranids... The planet Cadia churns out Guard regiments like they're on an assembly line. Ultramar has eight systems and at least 11 worlds. And you asked why the Ultramarines get to use their PDF? You said those chapters could beat the Ultramarines, bringing everything they have. That means they have to fight everything the Ultramarines can bring too. You don't get to pick and choose, willy nilly, according to the "rules" you've invented to support your interpretation of how it should happen, lol. The PDF of Ultramar aren't "allies" The Ultramarines directly control these PDF units just as they control their Marines. The Realm of Ultramar is ruled by Marneus Calgar, Chapter Master of the Ultramarines. He orders the full might of Ultramar's Marines, Navy, and Guard one and the same. Again, your fanboism is blinding you to the reality of the situation here. This is a Chapter that defeated two Hive Fleets. Sure, they had some help, but that's a feat that no other Chapter can even closely match. Every battle the Black Templars have ever fought doesn't equal the defeat of Hive Fleet Behemoth alone. How do you think the Ultramarines did it? Because their power base is far, far greater than just 1000 Battle Brothers, and their skill at warfare eclipses everyone elses's by a large margin. I understand that there's a lot of childish jealousy from people who, for whatever reason, hate the Ultramarines. But like I've said, somebody in the 40K Universe has to be "The Greatest". Might as well be the Ultramarines. Why is this such a hard pill for some people to swallow? It's like the fact that their favorite chapter isn't the best makes them suck or something.

before I report you to a Mod.

Ahh yes, truly the last evidence of a lost argument. Please, be my guest. You threw punches from the start at me. You started this, and you're mad at me because I finished it. You could have simply presented your differing opinion to mine, but you chose to be disrespectful. Instead of reporting you (because that would just be unmanly) for being impolite, I allowed you to continue your argument to see if you had anything worthwhile to say. Turns out you didn't. My fault. But please man, cry for me some more. I'm starting to have sympathy. Oh, no wait, that was just some gas.

Have some dignity at least. If you're going to pick a fight with someone, don't go running off to complain to the authorities when it doesn't go your way. You started off from the very beginning being disrespectful to me. I don't know what kind of world that you waddle around in that's populated entirely by spineless, jello molds of men, but if that's how you conduct yourself with me, that's how you're going to be treated in return. Own up to your words and behavior. Anything less is pathetic.

But honestly, this thread needed to be closed pages ago anyway. Nothing productive has been posted in it from the start. Eleven pages later it's just a bunch of jibberish and butthurt.

Yes gk accomplish this is GROUPS not by themselves. lol Never saw librarians need buddies to focus their powers. There is a reason one is an hq and the other is not.

CF is done by elite small brotherhood the Purifiers.
Might is a librarian power.
Hammerhand is their only generic power which is hardly as good as Vortex, CF, MoT, Null Zone etc. lol
The majority of their psychic power is used as a shield against people trying to affect their mind as per fluff. There are many that can't outwardly do any psychic feat. The more accomplished psykers are Justicars, Librarians(who far and exceed the average gk), Paladins who can use uniqe stuff like holocaust, Purifiers, etc. Those are not rank and file abilities.

If you site BL novels only one guy in their whole omnibus could use agressive powers and he was the leader of the terminator group before they made holocaust a paldin power.

You've sourced nothing. You can't even keep your own numbers straight. Probably because you've been fetching them from thin air and making things up to fill in the Grand Canyon sized gaps. Three million PDF is a conservative estimate. By modern standards, a regiment would typically be approximately 3000 troops. And the US Marines have three divisions of three regiments plus one Reserve division alone (nevermind that's just infantry strength, not artillery, tanks, etc). That's 36,000 infantrymen, give or take, with just one branch of one nation's military on the planet Earth. That's not even the largest branch of the American military, and the US military isn't even the largest one on Earth. You're saying, in the grim darkness of the far future where there is only war, that Ultramar's worlds would have an average of, according to you, less than 10,000 PDF troopers each, despite their constant history of interstellar warfare, including multiple invasions by Tyranids... The planet Cadia churns out Guard regiments like they're on an assembly line. Ultramar has eight systems and at least 11 worlds. And you asked why the Ultramarines get to use their PDF? You said those chapters could beat the Ultramarines, bringing everything they have. That means they have to fight everything the Ultramarines can bring too. You don't get to pick and choose, willy nilly, according to the "rules" you've invented to support your interpretation of how it should happen, lol. The PDF of Ultramar aren't "allies" The Ultramarines directly control these PDF units just as they control their Marines. The Realm of Ultramar is ruled by Marneus Calgar, Chapter Master of the Ultramarines. He orders the full might of Ultramar's Marines, Navy, and Guard one and the same. Again, your fanboism is blinding you to the reality of the situation here. This is a Chapter that defeated two Hive Fleets. Sure, they had some help, but that's a feat that no other Chapter can even closely match. Every battle the Black Templars have ever fought doesn't equal the defeat of Hive Fleet Behemoth alone. How do you think the Ultramarines did it? Because their power base is far, far greater than just 1000 Battle Brothers, and their skill at warfare eclipses everyone elses's by a large margin. I understand that there's a lot of childish jealousy from people who, for whatever reason, hate the Ultramarines. But like I've said, somebody in the 40K Universe has to be "The Greatest". Might as well be the Ultramarines. Why is this such a hard pill for some people to swallow? It's like the fact that their favorite chapter isn't the best makes them suck or something.

Sourced nothing? So you think that Savage Scars, Imperial Glory, dead men walking, Codex: Grey knights, Codex: BT and Gaunt's ghosts are nothing?

Go ahead. Search ultramarine fleet. You'll find that it matches what I posted, precisely.

Actually, most modern armies consider a "regiment" to be an exchangeable term for "batallion", which is 300-1200 men.

Also, If you have ever read anything ever, you'll see that Imperial Guard do not mobilize in numbers equivalent to World Wars, except for entire crusades. Examples: Dead men walking, four regiments sent to stop a necron army, in Imperial Glory, 1 regiment sent to stop a WAAAGH!

Three million PDF is an insanely, insanely liberal estimate, pushing ridiculous. That is more army troops that most GC fleets had. Than ANY GC fleet had.

And what I asked was why UM use their PDF but the GK can't use the inquisition, and the other can't use their supporting forces? And you're talking about picking and choosing LOL!

Also, the navy of ultramar is actually under segmentum command, as is all navy, and by extension, under munitorum control.

...and he talks about fanboism...notice how I'm not actually boosting a specific faction, and you are?

"had some help" they had unfathomable amounts of help. Left on their own they would have been nom'd. The entire Damocles Gulf Crusade went to their aide, as well as countless other imperial armed forces.

You are saying that after 10,000+ years of crusading, all the enemies this legion sized force of astartes has ever fought put together was not the equivalent of the UM defending against a hive fleet? A hive fleet that was fought mostly by their allies? Are you Sp.Ed? The BT purged the Ghoul Stars, an act that would have led to chapter-extermination for the UM as it has for 11 other chapters.

Eclipses everybody elses by a wide margin? Are you insane? First off, even their being above average is only known because it is directly stated, not through any evidence of it. Second off, you think that even if there is a difference, it would be noticeable, let alone a wide margin? Folly. Also, you think they are more skilled than Grey Knights, warriors even Uriel Ventris, and Ultramarine, states are completely above and beyond the UM, and who have more rigorous selection, more numbers, better equipment, and more influence/allies to the power of infinity à la inquisition?

And informing the moderators has less to do with the argument and more to do with you insulting me randomly, with no provocation, or reason and being both childish and disrespectful, which is clearly against Dakka's rule: be polite.

Templars are 6000+, have dozens of ships and are skilled enough in Space Warfare that the were given overall space command during Armageddon III (sources: Codex: Black Templars, and Helsreach). The Ultramarines were winning the Battle for Macragge until Calgar decided that a frontal assault on the 'Nid fleet was a good idea, at which point it took Lord Admiral Rath and his ship Dominus Astra going ballistic (literally!) to win.

Besides, the number of guardsmen doesn't matter. Templars win space and then proceed to bombard the planets of the Ultramar system from orbit. If you still contend that the Ultramarines win in space, could you provide some sources please?

Having all the BT's show up at the same place would really start to ring the death bell on them in my book. They've had the Inquisition sniffing around and keeping their eyes on them over their numbers already, and it would just finally give them the kindling they need to light the fire and name them Heretics or whatever. (OT I know)

SaintTom wrote:Having all the BT's show up at the same place would really start to ring the death bell on them in my book. They've had the Inquisition sniffing around and keeping their eyes on them over their numbers already, and it would just finally give them the kindling they need to light the fire and name them Heretics or whatever. (OT I know)

In this scenario, they are allies of the GK, and thus the inquisition.

they are blue, they remind everyone of smurfs, they seem to get every other thing that isn't a mini given to them


their primarch is a tool

im2randomghgh wrote:And informing the moderators has less to do with the argument and more to do with you insulting me randomly, with no provocation, or reason and being both childish and disrespectful, which is clearly against Dakka's rule: be polite.

And yet you set off in your little failboat by being disrespectful to me. And now you're crying about me not being polite? And here I thought I was at least discussing this with an adult. Didn't I just talk about acting like a grown man and owning your words and actions in my last post?

Oh wait, I get it. You selectively ignored that part too. Explains so much.

I find it amusing that the answers to several of your questions are in the Lexicanum that you've been trying to quote as a source. On articles you'd have had to read in order to quote some of the material you tried to use as proof. Failboat indeed. Anyhow.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

Durza wrote:My apologies, it was a small bit unfair. But the Blood Angels are still more interesting.

Well, that is your opinion. I personaly pray to great Tzeentch that he delivers us from all trite wanabe antiheroes which have a dark and terrible secret

Seriously. Of course, it's the same phenomenon that most people when they are young want to be like the ninja turtle Raphael because he's edgy and dark, but as they grow up, they realize Raphael is just an angry whiner and they'd rather be a great leader like Leonardo, smart like Donatello, or laid back and happy like Michelangelo (or all three).

The Ultramarines do everything better than the other chapters. After all, they are "The greatest of all Space Marine chapters." Like it or not, this is the truth as laid out by the fluff. I hate to say the rest of your argument is invalid, but, hey, since you missed this absolutely crucial part, it is.

And really, the rest is just your opinion, which, to me, is very limited in scope, heavily biased, and ultimately, very easily dismissed.

Actually, I always wanted to be Donatello. Rafael was an idiot.

Anyway, being 'the greatest of all Space Marine chapters' doesn't mean they do everything better than every other chapter. It means that they are, overall, better than other chapters even though they might be outperformed by them in some areas. It would be foolish to even suggest that the Ultramarines would be a better choice than the White Scars for a fast attack, even though they would be a better pick then the Salamanders. Though on the opposite side, the Salamanders would be the superior choice if you needed a lot of ...ehm... firepower. The Ultramarines are a middle ground, and a more versatile and overall useful force because of it.

Of course, there's little point in me saying any of this since you'll likely just repeat that the Ultramarines are the best at everything and dismiss me as an idiot for daring to disagree.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:And informing the moderators has less to do with the argument and more to do with you insulting me randomly, with no provocation, or reason and being both childish and disrespectful, which is clearly against Dakka's rule: be polite.

And yet you set off in your little failboat by being disrespectful to me. And now you're crying about me not being polite? And here I thought I was at least discussing this with an adult. Didn't I just talk about acting like a grown man and owning your words and actions in my last post?

Oh wait, I get it. You selectively ignored that part too. Explains so much.

I find it amusing that the answers to several of your questions are in the Lexicanum that you've been trying to quote as a source. On articles you'd have had to read in order to quote some of the material you tried to use as proof. Failboat indeed. Anyhow.

Again, insulting. Calling you childish after swearing and calling me random names? And I challenge you to find an insult levelled at you by me before my saying the word "childish".

Not only have I read those lexi articles, I have read every source on every one of those. I have read 100+ BL books. You don't even seem to have any ground left to argue against my points.

I have to ask you to stop trolling. Saying I am not an adult while using words like "failboat" "crying" "amusing" and assuming my not having read anything with zero evidence to support it.

i always assumed the whole "there's more ultramarines and they're the best evAr" thing was a joke based on everyone painting their army the color that's on the box.
I would like to see some more diversity in the codex... there's one frickin' Imperial Fist and it's Lysander.

Scambone wrote:i always assumed the whole "there's more ultramarines and they're the best evAr" thing was a joke based on everyone painting their army the color that's on the box.
I would like to see some more diversity in the codex... there's one frickin' Imperial Fist and it's Lysander.

I know what you mean, but they can't give multiple characters to every important chapters or there'd be too many. And Lysander is really the only notable IF ATM, with their CM specifically described as being uninspirational.

On the other hand, fething lysander.

I would rather see more fluff on them. They have like a paragraph.

Durza wrote:
Anyway, being 'the greatest of all Space Marine chapters' doesn't mean they do everything better than every other chapter. It means that they are, overall, better than other chapters even though they might be outperformed by them in some areas. It would be foolish to even suggest that the Ultramarines would be a better choice than the White Scars for a fast attack, even though they would be a better pick then the Salamanders. Though on the opposite side, the Salamanders would be the superior choice if you needed a lot of ...ehm... firepower. The Ultramarines are a middle ground, and a more versatile and overall useful force because of it.

Of course, there's little point in me saying any of this since you'll likely just repeat that the Ultramarines are the best at everything and dismiss me as an idiot for daring to disagree.

Actually, I'd have to agree with Durza. The idea that the Ultramarines do literally everything better than everyone else would not only justify a lot of the cries of "Mary-Sue," it's also obviously untrue.
They certainly haven't got the equipment for this role, nor do they have the specific training other chapters undergo to become specialised.
They are "greater than the other chapters" not because they do everything greater - it'd be very hard to argue that UM are superior in a close-quarters fight than SW, for example - but that they are able to perform any task given to them with skill, unlike other chapters, who have specialised to the point where they can do one thing supremely well at the cost of not being equipped or able to function in another capacity.
They are the best by being the jack-of-all-trades chapter, the chapter that can be expected to have a decent chance of victory in every situation you throw them in.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

before I report you to a Mod.

Ahh yes, truly the last evidence of a lost argument. Please, be my guest. You threw punches from the start at me. You started this, and you're mad at me because I finished it.

I don't much care who started it. You're both participating in a discussion about the fictional background of a game of toy soldiers. If you're getting worked up enough about it to start getting snarky with each other, you seriously need to stop and reconsider how you choose to spend your time.

If you see a post that is out of line, the correct response is to report it, not to respond in kind. That's a very simple principle that has the bonus of not getting yourself suspended along with the person you're flinging mud with.

Any further silliness will result in some time off for the offender.

I'd like to just refute one of Veteran Sergeant's arguements; One Chapter doesn't have to be the best. That's like saying in real life, one nation has to be the best (which ain't true).

The authors could easily not say one Chapter is just "better" than all the others.

LoneLictor wrote:I'd like to just refute one of Veteran Sergeant's arguements; One Chapter doesn't have to be the best. That's like saying in real life, one nation has to be the best (which ain't true).

The authors could easily not say one Chapter is just "better" than all the others.

Lots of people would like to refute one of my arguments. Welcome to the club of those who have failed. It's a big group though. So you won't be lonely.

Technically there will be a best in any group with quantifiable characteristics, even if that "best" is by a narrow, or even barely perceptible margin. By the most literal definition of the word, yes, there has to be a best. With Space Marines, there are ways to evaluate their performance. Total victories, significance of victories, success rate, influence, etc. Lots of them. Since there are no hard numbers, we as fans can only accept the word of Games Workshop. Games Workshop's word is that the Ultramarines are the best. Again though, and it is crucial to note, the Ultramarines being the best doesn't reflect poorly on any other chapter. There's absolutely no reason to get worked up over it, or expend effort trying to disprove it. It's irrefutable. At least until you gather up the capital to buy the controlling interest in Games Workshop and force a fluff rewrite. Any other arguments are entirely unsupportable.

If we want to approach things in some kind of pseudo-philosophical way, sure, Games Workshop could have left the back story of the setting up to players, and never expanded any of the fluff for the universe. The Chapters could continue to be essentially faceless and ambiguously defined like they were in Rogue Trader. But, that isn't the way it happened. And it would be kinda boring.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Durza wrote:
Anyway, being 'the greatest of all Space Marine chapters' doesn't mean they do everything better than every other chapter. It means that they are, overall, better than other chapters even though they might be outperformed by them in some areas. It would be foolish to even suggest that the Ultramarines would be a better choice than the White Scars for a fast attack, even though they would be a better pick then the Salamanders. Though on the opposite side, the Salamanders would be the superior choice if you needed a lot of ...ehm... firepower. The Ultramarines are a middle ground, and a more versatile and overall useful force because of it.

Of course, there's little point in me saying any of this since you'll likely just repeat that the Ultramarines are the best at everything and dismiss me as an idiot for daring to disagree.

Actually, I'd have to agree with Durza. The idea that the Ultramarines do literally everything better than everyone else would not only justify a lot of the cries of "Mary-Sue," it's also obviously untrue.
They certainly haven't got the equipment for this role, nor do they have the specific training other chapters undergo to become specialised.
They are "greater than the other chapters" not because they do everything greater - it'd be very hard to argue that UM are superior in a close-quarters fight than SW, for example - but that they are able to perform any task given to them with skill, unlike other chapters, who have specialised to the point where they can do one thing supremely well at the cost of not being equipped or able to function in another capacity.
They are the best by being the jack-of-all-trades chapter, the chapter that can be expected to have a decent chance of victory in every situation you throw them in.

These two are the basics of this argument. Both are correct. It answers the OP original question, proves that there are quite a few people who either A. Like Ultramarines, or B. disllike them as a chapter but respect them enough to at least conceed what GW has already stated (Ultramarines are the best overall). It also has shown that with one chapter being the best gives the rest of them character.

I call this discussion a win.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:unlike other chapters, who have specialised to the point where they can do one thing supremely well at the cost of not being equipped or able to function in another capacity.
They are the best by being the jack-of-all-trades chapter, the chapter that can be expected to have a decent chance of victory in every situation you throw them in.

I don't really agree with this assertion. I think that all Chapters will be capable of fighting in the same role - some will be better at and specific roles, and the Ultramarines may well be the all-rounder, but the other Chapters will still be able to deal with similar situations. The White Scars can still fight in a fortified location, and the Imperial Fists can still use hit and run attacks even if they prefer other methods. They're Astartes, after all; they're there to fight and win, not just fight.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Games Workshop's word is that the Ultramarines are the best. Again though, and it is crucial to note, the Ultramarines being the best doesn't reflect poorly on any other chapter.

If I recall correctly, the word used is "greatest" which has a lot of different meanings (one could easily interpret it as them being the most famous of Chapters, for instance, or the largest in terms of territory controlled). Even if does mean greatest as in best, it doesn't define how it is meant, and could easily relate to them having a tendency to build up worlds rather than just conquering and defending them without meaning that they are better at fighting than the other Chapters.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:unlike other chapters, who have specialised to the point where they can do one thing supremely well at the cost of not being equipped or able to function in another capacity.
They are the best by being the jack-of-all-trades chapter, the chapter that can be expected to have a decent chance of victory in every situation you throw them in.

I don't really agree with this assertion. I think that all Chapters will be capable of fighting in the same role - some will be better at and specific roles, and the Ultramarines may well be the all-rounder, but the other Chapters will still be able to deal with similar situations. The White Scars can still fight in a fortified location, and the Imperial Fists can still use hit and run attacks even if they prefer other methods. They're Astartes, after all; they're there to fight and win, not just fight.

Yes, but the White Scars, both culturally and in terms of equipment and training, do not work well in a defend-the-fort scenario. That's not to say they are bad at it; they're still Space Marines, after all. They just aren't as good as the IF, and vice versa when it comes to hit-and-run. It's a case of using the right force for the job, and when sieges are needed, you want the Fists, not the Scars.
The Ultramarines are able to adapt to both situations without losing any advantages because they have to overcome decades of theme-based training to do it.
Again, does this make them better at those roles than the Marines who do it most? No. But it does make them highly adaptable to any situation, something you want in an army.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:I'd like to just refute one of Veteran Sergeant's arguements; One Chapter doesn't have to be the best. That's like saying in real life, one nation has to be the best (which ain't true).

The authors could easily not say one Chapter is just "better" than all the others.

Lots of people would like to refute one of my arguments. Welcome to the club of those who have failed. It's a big group though. So you won't be lonely.

Technically there will be a best in any group with quantifiable characteristics, even if that "best" is by a narrow, or even barely perceptible margin. By the most literal definition of the word, yes, there has to be a best. With Space Marines, there are ways to evaluate their performance. Total victories, significance of victories, success rate, influence, etc. Lots of them. Since there are no hard numbers, we as fans can only accept the word of Games Workshop. Games Workshop's word is that the Ultramarines are the best. Again though, and it is crucial to note, the Ultramarines being the best doesn't reflect poorly on any other chapter. There's absolutely no reason to get worked up over it, or expend effort trying to disprove it. It's irrefutable. At least until you gather up the capital to buy the controlling interest in Games Workshop and force a fluff rewrite. Any other arguments are entirely unsupportable.

If we want to approach things in some kind of pseudo-philosophical way, sure, Games Workshop could have left the back story of the setting up to players, and never expanded any of the fluff for the universe. The Chapters could continue to be essentially faceless and ambiguously defined like they were in Rogue Trader. But, that isn't the way it happened. And it would be kinda boring.

First, off, no need to be rude. We're all geeks here.

And you're wrong, one group "technically" doesn't have to be best, because "best" is subjective. How do you judge that's best? Color scheme? Tactics? Leaders? Equipment? Reputation? Intelligence? Geneseed stability? The amount of people within the Chapter named Steve (my homebrew chapter would win that)? Armor? Training? Chapter Size? Really, Games Workshop could've just talked about the Chapter's individual attributes and maybe a few losses and victories to flesh them out, as opposed to just blabbering about their greatness.

And secondly, I'm not asking Games Workshop to stop writing fluff. I'm simply stating that they don't have to include certain fluff. For example, if Games Workshop wrote something that said, "Ultramarines are the worst Chapter they all suck" (which would be just as bad as writing Ultramarines are the best) and you said they didn't want that, I could copypasta your arguement and make a strawman out of you that you hate fluff and want Games Workshop to stop writing. That probably doesn't make much sense, so I'll restate it; not liking one part of the fluff doesn't mean that I hate all fluff and want Games Workshop to stop writing.

Asking "Why does everyone hate Ultramarines?" is like asking why Tau players love there army: because there all snipers! I personally haven't encountered a UM hater, so i don't know, but i hear a lot of crap about them on Dakka.

LoneLictor wrote:And you're wrong, one group "technically" doesn't have to be best, because "best" is subjective. How do you judge that's best?

Games Workshop told you. There's nothing else to judge. We don't have any quantifiable numbers, so the only evaluation that matters is by the creators of the artistic license.

I mean, sure, you as the fan, are allowed to have a favorite chapter that isn't the Ultramarines. But the Ultramarines are still greater than them. It's just the way it is, and it is futile to rail against this fact. I'm actually fairly sure you don't know the proper definition of strawman, or how it is used in discussion and critique, so we'll give you a pass on your blunder. But if we play along, we can pretend that if I did "hate" a fluff description of the Ultramarines as the worst chapter... But I didn't say that, and neither did Games Workshop. So, it's completely irrelevant. I mean, you could also make me look like a fool if I said the sky was green or that bananas taste best when they are purple, or that the best Bruce Willis movie of all time is Sense and Sensibility. But, i didn't say any of those things, so it's somewhat pointless to bring it up.

Whatever you end up saying, it all comes back to this: Whether or not you like it, the Ultramarines are "the greatest of all Space Marine Chapters".


And I wasn't being rude. I was just telling the truth. A lot of people would like to refute one of my points. And you also failed to do so. Pointing those things out isn't rude. They are just true.