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im2randomghgh wrote:
No, he wasn't. He was corrupted the second he acquired the Laer sword. He was possessed later, but he was never willfully fighting against the IoM. It went from him being influenced and not knowing he was influenced, to him basically being ejected from his body.

Picking up a Daemon-sword doesn't instantly corrupt you. If nothing else, Crowe proves that. He did choose to fight the Imperium - Istvaan III occurred before he was possessed, and he was still willing to see the Loyalist Legions get butchered until he ended up against Manus face-to-face and had a crisis of conscience. His friendship stayed his hand in his fight with Manus, not loyalty to the Imperium or the Emperor. Fulgrim's fall was of his own choosing. Whether or not he could've found redemption had he not fallen for what the Daemon said (who flat out lied to him) and given it control is another matter. He had to willingly let the Daemon in, after all.

Ah, but Crowe is incorruptable.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
No, he wasn't. He was corrupted the second he acquired the Laer sword. He was possessed later, but he was never willfully fighting against the IoM. It went from him being influenced and not knowing he was influenced, to him basically being ejected from his body.

Picking up a Daemon-sword doesn't instantly corrupt you. If nothing else, Crowe proves that. He did choose to fight the Imperium - Istvaan III occurred before he was possessed, and he was still willing to see the Loyalist Legions get butchered until he ended up against Manus face-to-face and had a crisis of conscience. His friendship stayed his hand in his fight with Manus, not loyalty to the Imperium or the Emperor. Fulgrim's fall was of his own choosing. Whether or not he could've found redemption had he not fallen for what the Daemon said (who flat out lied to him) and given it control is another matter. He had to willingly let the Daemon in, after all.

He did not let the daemon in. He did not know he had a daemon. The daemon subtly wormed it's way into him, and even before possession he was it's puppet. It spoke to him, and he assumed the thoughts were his own, so he obeyed. Did you read Fulgrim? When he was fighting Ferrus he had an "oh, feth! Those weren't my thoughts" moment, and the sword took control.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Though there are obvious nods to Batman in his character (hello, Bat symbol) the two are completely unalike in methodology. Kurze is more like the lovechild of Bats and the Punisher.

That's exactly what I was thinking reading your post, and then I saw that at the bottom and I tripped out.

It's a good thing I read it to the end before replying or it would have been awkward.

They say great minds think alike, you know.
That might apply to minds that enjoy arguing about the differences between toy soldiers and virtual scifi men too, but I prefer to assume we're both simply great.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Though there are obvious nods to Batman in his character (hello, Bat symbol) the two are completely unalike in methodology. Kurze is more like the lovechild of Bats and the Punisher.

That's exactly what I was thinking reading your post, and then I saw that at the bottom and I tripped out.

It's a good thing I read it to the end before replying or it would have been awkward.

They say great minds think alike, you know.
That might apply to minds that enjoy arguing about the differences between toy soldiers and virtual scifi men too, but I prefer to assume we're both simply great.

It is straight fact!

BTW punisher with a bolter=the end of civilization.

The Crusader wrote:Ah, but Crowe is incorruptable.

Which proves that a Daemon-sword does not instantly corrupt those wielding it.

im2randomghgh wrote:He did not let the daemon in. He did not know he had a daemon. The daemon subtly wormed it's way into him, and even before possession he was it's puppet. It spoke to him, and he assumed the thoughts were his own, so he obeyed. Did you read Fulgrim? When he was fighting Ferrus he had an "oh, feth! Those weren't my thoughts" moment, and the sword took control.

It talked to him. He didn't realise it, but you don't have to follow the thoughts you have anyway. I've thought various terrible actions I could theoretically undertake but that I don't want to nor have the motivation to do so. He wasn't a puppet before his possession. He still had free will. The Daemon couldn't just dominate him, that's why Fulgrim had to let it in after he killed Manus.

When he was fighting Manus he had a crisis of conscience because he didn't want to kill the brother he was closer to and he realised he had been played (to an extent, at least). Had he been in his right mind, in a normal situation, I doubt the Daemon would have been able to control him even for the second (or less) it did to kill Manus. His arm was forced for at most a second. Until that point everything had been his decision. Letting the Daemon take full control was his (extremely selfish) decision.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

The Crusader wrote:Ah, but Crowe is incorruptable.

Which proves that a Daemon-sword does not instantly corrupt those wielding it.

im2randomghgh wrote:He did not let the daemon in. He did not know he had a daemon. The daemon subtly wormed it's way into him, and even before possession he was it's puppet. It spoke to him, and he assumed the thoughts were his own, so he obeyed. Did you read Fulgrim? When he was fighting Ferrus he had an "oh, feth! Those weren't my thoughts" moment, and the sword took control.

It talked to him. He didn't realise it, but you don't have to follow the thoughts you have anyway. I've thought various terrible actions I could theoretically undertake but that I don't want to nor have the motivation to do so. He wasn't a puppet before his possession. He still had free will. The Daemon couldn't just dominate him, that's why Fulgrim had to let it in after he killed Manus.

When he was fighting Manus he had a crisis of conscience because he didn't want to kill the brother he was closer to and he realised he had been played (to an extent, at least). Had he been in his right mind, in a normal situation, I doubt the Daemon would have been able to control him even for the second (or less) it did to kill Manus. His arm was forced for at most a second. Until that point everything had been his decision. Letting the Daemon take full control was his (extremely selfish) decision.

It had NOTHING to do with a crisis of conscience! It is like how the king of Rohan was being manipulated in LotR!

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

The Crusader wrote:Ah, but Crowe is incorruptable.

Which proves that a Daemon-sword does not instantly corrupt those wielding it.

There's kind of a difference between someone who hasn't even been told that daemons exist picking up a sword and listening to the ever-darker thoughts that he thinks are his own and someone specifically trained to fight daemons using a daemon blade when he knows what it is and what it can do. The difference being that the second guy should know better

im2randomghgh wrote:He did not let the daemon in. He did not know he had a daemon. The daemon subtly wormed it's way into him, and even before possession he was it's puppet. It spoke to him, and he assumed the thoughts were his own, so he obeyed. Did you read Fulgrim? When he was fighting Ferrus he had an "oh, feth! Those weren't my thoughts" moment, and the sword took control.

It talked to him. He didn't realise it, but you don't have to follow the thoughts you have anyway. I've thought various terrible actions I could theoretically undertake but that I don't want to nor have the motivation to do so. He wasn't a puppet before his possession. He still had free will. The Daemon couldn't just dominate him, that's why Fulgrim had to let it in after he killed Manus.

When he was fighting Manus he had a crisis of conscience because he didn't want to kill the brother he was closer to and he realised he had been played (to an extent, at least). Had he been in his right mind, in a normal situation, I doubt the Daemon would have been able to control him even for the second (or less) it did to kill Manus. His arm was forced for at most a second. Until that point everything had been his decision. Letting the Daemon take full control was his (extremely selfish) decision.

Except he didn't know what the daemon was going to do. It offered oblivion and he accepted. Considering that he had just killed his brother and best or second best friend with what he had intended to be a warning shot of sorts, and that he had just realised he'd led his own legion into corruption, that's pretty understandable, especially considering that it would probably be pretty damn hard for a primarch to kill himself with their regenerative abilities and whatnot. I also don't see how it would have been a selfish move even if he had known what he was going to do. Setting yourself up for an eternity of torture is selfish in the books of very few people.

im2randomghgh wrote:
It had NOTHING to do with a crisis of conscience! It is like how the king of Rohan was being manipulated in LotR!

It had everything to do with a crisis of conscience. The Daemon had no real power over Fulgrim, Fulgrim just decided that he wasn't willing to go far enough to continue in the rebellion (for that moment, at least. Whether or not he would've changed his mind again is unknown). I can't actually remember what Saruman did to Theoden in the books to be honest, and I'm not going to go by the films because they went against the books in many ways.

Durza wrote:There's kind of a difference between someone who hasn't even been told that daemons exist picking up a sword and listening to the ever-darker thoughts that he thinks are his own and someone specifically trained to fight daemons using a daemon blade when he knows what it is and what it can do. The difference being that the second guy should know better

I know there's a difference. But it still proves that Fulgrim wasn't corrupted as soon as he picked up the Laer sword. Also, listening to the thoughts was still his own decision. I have dark thoughts from time to time. I don't act on them. Fulgrim still had free will (aside from the second when the Daemon forced his arm to kill Manus).

Except he didn't know what the daemon was going to do. It offered oblivion and he accepted. Considering that he had just killed his brother and best or second best friend with what he had intended to be a warning shot of sorts, and that he had just realised he'd led his own legion into corruption, that's pretty understandable, especially considering that it would probably be pretty damn hard for a primarch to kill himself with their regenerative abilities and whatnot. I also don't see how it would have been a selfish move even if he had known what he was going to do. Setting yourself up for an eternity of torture is selfish in the books of very few people.

True. He fell for the lie of the Daemon because he was an emotional wreck at that point. Suicide would still be possible - if nothing else, he could try to stop the rebellion single-handedly there and then (and almost certain be killed by one of the other Traitor Primarchs) or destroy enough of his own head with a power weapon that he would die. He was selfish because he chose to try to escape from the consequences of his action and any attempt at putting things right so that he wouldn't feel guilty. Had he known, he would still be selfish because he would be giving up power to another for no real reason. He chose to open himself to a Daemon rather than try to find redemption.

Saruman corrupted the king by having Wormtongue constantly whisper lies into his ear until he believed him. To start with they were small and infrequent, but by the time Gandalf got there he had locked himself in the darkness and was about to betray Gondor. It was basically the same thing with Fulgrim, if you replace 'locked himself in the darkness' with 'took a lot of mind altering substances and led a legion to damnation'.

Further off-topic discussion will result in warnings and/or the thread being closed... reign it in boys!

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
It had NOTHING to do with a crisis of conscience! It is like how the king of Rohan was being manipulated in LotR!

It had everything to do with a crisis of conscience. The Daemon had no real power over Fulgrim, Fulgrim just decided that he wasn't willing to go far enough to continue in the rebellion (for that moment, at least. Whether or not he would've changed his mind again is unknown). I can't actually remember what Saruman did to Theoden in the books to be honest, and I'm not going to go by the films because they went against the books in many ways.

Durza wrote:There's kind of a difference between someone who hasn't even been told that daemons exist picking up a sword and listening to the ever-darker thoughts that he thinks are his own and someone specifically trained to fight daemons using a daemon blade when he knows what it is and what it can do. The difference being that the second guy should know better

I know there's a difference. But it still proves that Fulgrim wasn't corrupted as soon as he picked up the Laer sword. Also, listening to the thoughts was still his own decision. I have dark thoughts from time to time. I don't act on them. Fulgrim still had free will (aside from the second when the Daemon forced his arm to kill Manus).

Except he didn't know what the daemon was going to do. It offered oblivion and he accepted. Considering that he had just killed his brother and best or second best friend with what he had intended to be a warning shot of sorts, and that he had just realised he'd led his own legion into corruption, that's pretty understandable, especially considering that it would probably be pretty damn hard for a primarch to kill himself with their regenerative abilities and whatnot. I also don't see how it would have been a selfish move even if he had known what he was going to do. Setting yourself up for an eternity of torture is selfish in the books of very few people.

True. He fell for the lie of the Daemon because he was an emotional wreck at that point. Suicide would still be possible - if nothing else, he could try to stop the rebellion single-handedly there and then (and almost certain be killed by one of the other Traitor Primarchs) or destroy enough of his own head with a power weapon that he would die. He was selfish because he chose to try to escape from the consequences of his action and any attempt at putting things right so that he wouldn't feel guilty. Had he known, he would still be selfish because he would be giving up power to another for no real reason. He chose to open himself to a Daemon rather than try to find redemption.

You're 100% right here. Just want to add onto the last section. Remember, it's important to realize that by the time Fulgrim slew Ferrus, he'd already been corrupted. Killing his brother and giving in to the daemon was the culmination of everything that came before. It's impossible to use as evidence on its own. It is an effect, not a cause.

Fulgrim was weak, and let himself be persuaded by the voices in his head. Plenty of other characters in 40K lore have resisted temptation. Fulgrim did not. He was vain and arrogant, and sought perfection. The daemon lied to him and he bought into it. He was only possessed after his greater character flaws and weaknesses were exploited. Corruption, then possession when he ultimately realized that he'd "sold his soul", and it wasn't for rock and roll.

However, to reign this back in, because it's a huge semantic tangent to the irrefutable truth that the primarchs were all arrogant (just in different ways). Guilliman, and the Ultramarines by default, get a lot of flak for being "too perfect". And that's simply because the Ultramarines display their primarch's traits in their mentality. Guilliman's arrogance was less visible and more subtle. It makes him seem "perfect", but anyone who bothered to read my character examination of Guilliman (or just took the time themselves to do a character analysis) understands that he wasn't perfect, not by far. But his flaws are simply not superficial like some of his brothers (extremes of hatred, sociopathy, pride, vanity, etc). Guilliman was resistant to the influences of Chaos because he didn't need acceptance or validation beyond that of the Emperor, and what he created for himself. He wasn't worried about the kinds of little things Horus, or Lorgar, or Fulgrim were, for example.

But I don't see how that's a problem. Somebody in the story has to be the good guy. Sanguinius has very few character flaws. He was a great general, a great fighter, resisted temptation, wasn't arrogant, etc. The only real difference between him and Guilliman is that he died heroically, And people always seem to remember people in a far better light after they died. If Guilliman had been able to be at Terra, and died instead of Sanguinius, and the Blood Angels were the "default" chapter (since they were essentially perfect before the Black Rage), we'd just read "Why does everybody hate the Blood Angels" threads.

But I don't see how that's a problem. Somebody in the story has to be the good guy. Sanguinius has very few character flaws. He was a great general, a great fighter, resisted temptation, wasn't arrogant, etc. The only real difference between him and Guilliman is that he died heroically, And people always seem to remember people in a far better light after they died. If Guilliman had been able to be at Terra, and died instead of Sanguinius, and the Blood Angels were the "default" chapter (since they were essentially perfect before the Black Rage), we'd just read "Why does everybody hate the Blood Angels" threads.

A huge portion of Ultrasmurfs hate isn't simply because they are popular, it is because they are popular AND boring, plain. They are standard, they follow the rules, and that's the ultramarines. Blood Angels have always had personality, and they actually used to be the GW poster boys, and no one hated them...

I... I like Ultramarines?

I like the order and discipline. I like their colors. I like Guilliman. I like their Roman style. If I played space marines... I would use Ultras. Especially because of the Honor Guard boxed set. Gorgeous.

im2randomghgh wrote:

But I don't see how that's a problem. Somebody in the story has to be the good guy. Sanguinius has very few character flaws. He was a great general, a great fighter, resisted temptation, wasn't arrogant, etc. The only real difference between him and Guilliman is that he died heroically, And people always seem to remember people in a far better light after they died. If Guilliman had been able to be at Terra, and died instead of Sanguinius, and the Blood Angels were the "default" chapter (since they were essentially perfect before the Black Rage), we'd just read "Why does everybody hate the Blood Angels" threads.

A huge portion of Ultrasmurfs hate isn't simply because they are popular, it is because they are popular AND boring, plain. They are standard, they follow the rules, and that's the ultramarines. Blood Angels have always had personality, and they actually used to be the GW poster boys, and no one hated them...

The Blood Angels were never the poster boys. This is something I hear quite often, but it holds no water. They were simply on the cover of the 2nd Edition game (and eventually Epi-K) and used in Space Hulk. And that was long before they had any real fluff behind them. They never held a position like the Ultramarines have since 1995. The Space Wolves got far, far more exposure in Rogue Trader. So if the Blood Angels were poster boys, we're talking about a span of maybe a year and a half, when the hobby was small, the fluff extremely limited, and there weren't Internet forums for people to share their angry, incoherent biases and infect other people with dumb ideas.

And I think the Blood Angels are silly. The whole Black Rage thing, and vampire thing, etc. It's contrived and silly, not interesting. The Ultramarines as warriors of consummate skill and comprehensive in their ability to adapt and overcome are far more interesting. But I don't hate the Blood Angels.

But you miss the point. Without the Black Rage, the Blood Angels are just as boring as the Ultramarines. They follow the rules too. They just go crazy from time to time with the Black Rage and it gives them a contrived sense of tragedy.

Yup, a group of warriors with an inherent flaw they an in danger of succumbing to is far less interesting than the guys who always follow the rules and are totally perfect...

Veteran's right, technically the Blood Angels also follow the Codex Astartes and are a Codex Chapter. However, they do diverge from it, just as the Imperial Fists do.
Only the Space Wolves can truly be counted as not really following the codex, as I understood it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Durza wrote:Yup, a group of warriors with an inherent flaw they an in danger of succumbing to is far less interesting than the guys who always follow the rules and are totally perfect...

Again, being a bit unfair to the Boys in Blue there. Most of the fluff indicates a flaw of inflexibility, with a little too much reliance on Dogma.
Also, if Uriel and Titus are anything to go by, the Codex is meant to be considered more of a set of guidelines and hints than solid rules.
At least, that's the impression I got from Titus.

My apologies, it was a small bit unfair. But the Blood Angels are still more interesting.

Durza wrote:My apologies, it was a small bit unfair. But the Blood Angels are still more interesting.

Well, that is your opinion. I personaly pray to great Tzeentch that he delivers us from all trite wanabe antiheroes which have a dark and terrible secret ( for some strange reason only Khorn and the bugs have actualy listened, ah, the architect of fate works in mysterious ways ).

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

But I don't see how that's a problem. Somebody in the story has to be the good guy. Sanguinius has very few character flaws. He was a great general, a great fighter, resisted temptation, wasn't arrogant, etc. The only real difference between him and Guilliman is that he died heroically, And people always seem to remember people in a far better light after they died. If Guilliman had been able to be at Terra, and died instead of Sanguinius, and the Blood Angels were the "default" chapter (since they were essentially perfect before the Black Rage), we'd just read "Why does everybody hate the Blood Angels" threads.

A huge portion of Ultrasmurfs hate isn't simply because they are popular, it is because they are popular AND boring, plain. They are standard, they follow the rules, and that's the ultramarines. Blood Angels have always had personality, and they actually used to be the GW poster boys, and no one hated them...

The Blood Angels were never the poster boys. This is something I hear quite often, but it holds no water. They were simply on the cover of the 2nd Edition game (and eventually Epi-K) and used in Space Hulk. And that was long before they had any real fluff behind them. They never held a position like the Ultramarines have since 1995. The Space Wolves got far, far more exposure in Rogue Trader. So if the Blood Angels were poster boys, we're talking about a span of maybe a year and a half, when the hobby was small, the fluff extremely limited, and there weren't Internet forums for people to share their angry, incoherent biases and infect other people with dumb ideas.

And I think the Blood Angels are silly. The whole Black Rage thing, and vampire thing, etc. It's contrived and silly, not interesting. The Ultramarines as warriors of consummate skill and comprehensive in their ability to adapt and overcome are far more interesting. But I don't hate the Blood Angels.

But you miss the point. Without the Black Rage, the Blood Angels are just as boring as the Ultramarines. They follow the rules too. They just go crazy from time to time with the Black Rage and it gives them a contrived sense of tragedy.

Bold part is as innaccurate as it gets, italic part applies to all marines.

And sanguinary guard are non-deathcompany related codex deviation, as well as extreme use of assault tactics, having a guardian angel, using altogether different dreadnoughts variations/weapons etc.

Ultramarines do nothing different or better than other chapters. There's nothing special about them, other than their small empire.

Blood Angels have death company, Sang guard, Sanguinor, priests, furisio, blood talons, melta pistols etc.

Iron Hands have all kinds of augmetics.

Imperial Fists have their own special tank-hunting doctrine, honour duels, their own land raider pattern and a giant star fort under their command.

Dark Angels are so connected to their successors they are basically still a legion, have their special chaplains, have their secret, have a dreadnought pattern etc.

Space Wolves have the wulfen, entirely different command structure, doctrine, weapons, ranks, recruitment and basically everything different.

Raven Guard have their stealth attacks and gakloads of LC...I admit, they're not that special.

White Scars have brotherhoods which aren't even exact equivalents of companies, have stormseers, use more bikes than the codex would ever support, modifies their battletanks, has no dreadnoughts and has a Master of the Hunt.

Salamanders modify their armour and weapons substantially, have physically slower reflexes, little in the way of fast attack, and use almost exclusively heat based weapons for special weaponry.

Now do you see why they are the least exciting 1st founding loyal legion? The only legion at ALL more boring is the IW.

KingDeath wrote:

Durza wrote:My apologies, it was a small bit unfair. But the Blood Angels are still more interesting.

Well, that is your opinion. I personaly pray to great Tzeentch that he delivers us from all trite wanabe antiheroes which have a dark and terrible secret

Seriously. Of course, it's the same phenomenon that most people when they are young want to be like the ninja turtle Raphael because he's edgy and dark, but as they grow up, they realize Raphael is just an angry whiner and they'd rather be a great leader like Leonardo, smart like Donatello, or laid back and happy like Michelangelo (or all three).

The Ultramarines do everything better than the other chapters. After all, they are "The greatest of all Space Marine chapters." Like it or not, this is the truth as laid out by the fluff. I hate to say the rest of your argument is invalid, but, hey, since you missed this absolutely crucial part, it is.

And really, the rest is just your opinion, which, to me, is very limited in scope, heavily biased, and ultimately, very easily dismissed.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

Durza wrote:My apologies, it was a small bit unfair. But the Blood Angels are still more interesting.

Well, that is your opinion. I personaly pray to great Tzeentch that he delivers us from all trite wanabe antiheroes which have a dark and terrible secret

Seriously. Of course, it's the same phenomenon that most people when they are young want to be like the ninja turtle Raphael because he's edgy and dark, but as they grow up, they realize Raphael is just an angry whiner and they'd rather be a great leader like Leonardo, smart like Donatello, or laid back and happy like Michelangelo (or all three).

The Ultramarines do everything better than the other chapters. After all, they are "The greatest of all Space Marine chapters." Like it or not, this is the truth as laid out by the fluff. I hate to say the rest of your argument is invalid, but, hey, since you missed this absolutely crucial part, it is.

And really, the rest is just your opinion, which, to me, is very limited in scope, heavily biased, and ultimately, very easily dismissed.

...not quite. They are balanced. They are better than the White Scars at siege warfare and better than the salamanders at fast attack...but then again the Salamanders are better than the scars in a siege and the White Scars are better at fast attack.

The Ultramarines are successful because of a combo of plot armour, and being pretty good at everything. However, most non UM chapters have a specialty, which the UM are most decidedly NOT superior to them in.

Also, I would argue that BT, SW and GK are all more successful, being bigger and more accomplished, plus in a chapter war any of those three could crush the smurfs.

You really do live in a strange world of Smurf Hate. In a chapter war, the Ultramarines bring their own fleet, the Ultramar Navy, and hundreds, if not thousands, of regiments of Imperial Guard level Ultramar PDF troopers, and thousands of years of combined arms experience to utilize them to their fullest.

Not only do the Ultramarines defeat any of those three Chapters, it defeats all three at the same time.


Again, like I've said before, we know the Ultramarines are the best. Somebody has to be the best. It might as well be the Ultramarines. I don't see any reason for people to dislike this fact. But, for those who insist on disliking that fact, they still have to accept that it is fact.

For those who are interested, I’ve got some final results from my thread for tallying the true percentage of Ultramarine hatred, with 271 Dakkanauts weighing in. Before parties who shall remain nameless (but rhyme with squee) trolled the thread into oblivion, we managed to learn that 36.9% of respondents felt positively about the Ultramarines. Only 28.4% were neutral. A further 32.5% felt negatively about the Ultramarines, with the remaining voters declining to pigeonhole their nuanced views into a single declarative statement. Now, anyone familiar with polling and sampling understands that this isn’t perfectly objective, but it at least serves to give us a better idea of how many people actually dislike the Ultramarines.

Well come on, Ultramarines haters are a silly bunch who deserve to be trolled.

Jimsolo wrote:For those who are interested, I’ve got some final results from my thread for tallying the true percentage of Ultramarine hatred, with 271 Dakkanauts weighing in. Before parties who shall remain nameless (but rhyme with squee) trolled the thread into oblivion, we managed to learn that 36.9% of respondents felt positively about the Ultramarines. Only 28.4% were neutral.

I can only assume this is directed at myself. How is defending your favorite chapter considering trolling?

im2randomghgh wrote:Salamanders modify their armour and weapons substantially, have physically slower reflexes, little in the way of fast attack, and use almost exclusively heat based weapons for special weaponry.

I hate Vulkan Hestans rules because it makes people think this. The Salamanders like heat based weapons, but don't 'almost exlusively use them'. Their codex deviations came from a lower amount of assault marines, and a divergance in the form of organisation, in that they only have 7 companies instead of 10 (based on the 7 continents of Nocturn), with the numbers brought up to about 1000 Marines by the companies being bigger than normal.

MrMoustaffa wrote:
Also, they were Matt Ward's favored child for a while, and anything that has come into contact with Matt Ward tends to receive undying hate from the 40k community.

So when he makes the Tau Codex they will get even MORE hate?

Actually, Bandit, it turns out that the Tau aren't as hated as you'd think they would be. Although, if Ward writes their new Codex, that will probably add a substantial amount of hatred to their load.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Not only do the Ultramarines defeat any of those three Chapters, it defeats all three at the same time.

Er, No.

Black Templars: 6, 000+ Marines and a fleet large enough to transport them. also seem to specialize in CQB

Space Wolves: 1, 000-2, 000 Marines.

Grey Knights: 1, 000 uber-killy Marines

There is no way in heaven, earth or hell the Ultramarines would win. Unless Mr. Ward wrote it...