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2012/02/15 15:52:13
Subject: Why does everyone hate on the Ultramarines?
It seems logical to me that all non fleet-based chapters would limit themselves to a segmentum at most (unless things are super dire). It still takes time to travel in the warp and that's not incredibly reliable.
When Marines are needed, they're needed NOW. Their response needs to be rapid. There are a thousand chapters and a million marines in the galaxy: If only ten thousand of those marines are from the original legions, then of course they're not going to be in every fight!
Thus when we hear about BTs or DAs interfering all over the galaxy, that's fine; they might just happen to be there at that one given time. Space Wolves, Salamanders and Ultramarines? They'll have a far more limited range.
I think if we want proof of the UMs exerting an influence beyond their segmentum, then there should be fluff looking to their successors; which I find utterly neglected.
Successor chapters often have the traits of their original legion, so rather than reading about the million deeds of original legions who, barring the BTs and the SWs, nowadays don't number more than a thousand per legion, we should read about what their successors do; it'd be the same kind of stuff, similar tactics and doctrines, but with different names. Also would give them a longer reach.
I think there are a few misconceptions about the Codex Astartes.
1) The Codex (in 40.000) is not "Ultramarine Combat Doctrine". It is a "Living document" collecting the "wisdom" and strategems from all loyal codex-chapters from 10.000 years. I vaguely remember a (FW?) story were a particluarly effective Raven Guard strategy was "chosen to be included in the Codex"; which was a great honor. To defy the Codex, is not defying the Ultramarines. It is defying the battle-wisdom of Imperial Fist, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Raven Guard, Salamanders, Crimson Fists, etc.. in equal measure.
2) The Ultramarines do not "enforce" use of the Codex. At the beginning of the post-Heresy, it was enforced in parts by the Adeptus Terra, though it is said they no longer do (or could). The Ultramarines could care less if others adhere to the Codex or not. They adhere because they belief in it. Imperial Fist, Raven Guard, Blood Angels, etc.. also adhere to it because they believe in it. And the only ones that would remotely care if a chapter goes "non-Codex" would´be the Adeptus Terra. The Imperial Fist, Raven Guard, Ultramarines, etc.. who all believe in it would just shake their head and move on.
3) Claiming other Codex-adherent chapters are "forced" to compy with the Codex (and hating Ultramarines for it) is like hating Ancient Greece for "forcing" Democracy on the US, Canada, etc.. . Ancient Greece was simply the first who adopted it, and at that in an early incarnation that bears little resemblance to the modern thing. But anyone who goes along with it (or against it) 3.000 (or, respectively 10.000) years later does so on their own volition.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/02/15 15:56:33
I was watching Being Human on Monday night. During the show, the character Sally look at Josh and said the following. (paraphrased)
"Your favorite movie is Star Trek V: The Final Frontier though you tell people it is The Wrath of Khan just so people will think your cool"
I found that line funny on multiple levels. It applies to this conversation because everyone here is playing with toy soldiers. Blue, Red, or Green toy soldiers does not matter to 99.999% of people.
2012/02/15 16:01:53
Subject: Re:Why does everyone hate on the Ultramarines?
The problem is that they have been in very few of the major battles of the Imperium, but are still lauded as the ultimate heroes of the Space Marines. They even lost the battle where they may or may not have killed a primarch because they under estimated their enemy.
TheRobotLol wrote:
Durza wrote:The major reason would be, as others have said, the fluff. It's hard to stay interesting when you are apparently the paragon of marines, and even harder with the sheer volume of fluff given to them. And besides that, in the current codex they have like five special characters. Too many.
Also, their name is a double pun. Bad.
Maze wrote: That's why I play SW. They're like the Batman of 40k.
Spoiler:
Why do you say space wolves but have a picture of a night lord?
I think ultramarines are disliked for their fluff and uninterestingness. Sure, a well painted ultramarine force can look good, but its really not that interesting.
Because the Night Lords are Batman, not the Space Wolves.
Arguing with some people is like playing chess with a pigeon. You can play the best chess in the world, but at the end of the day the pigeon will still knock all the pieces off the board and then gak all over it.
2012/02/15 16:02:27
Subject: Re:Why does everyone hate on the Ultramarines?
tantan628 wrote:Because they did things to me... things that would make even Slaanesh sick.
Part of me just died inside. Another part laughed itself in half.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Durza wrote:The problem is that they have been in very few of the major battles of the Imperium, but are still lauded as the ultimate heroes of the Space Marines. They even lost the battle where they may or may not have killed a primarch because they under estimated their enemy.
TheRobotLol wrote:
Durza wrote:The major reason would be, as others have said, the fluff. It's hard to stay interesting when you are apparently the paragon of marines, and even harder with the sheer volume of fluff given to them. And besides that, in the current codex they have like five special characters. Too many.
Also, their name is a double pun. Bad.
Maze wrote: That's why I play SW. They're like the Batman of 40k.
Spoiler:
Why do you say space wolves but have a picture of a night lord?
I think ultramarines are disliked for their fluff and uninterestingness. Sure, a well painted ultramarine force can look good, but its really not that interesting.
Because the Night Lords are Batman, not the Space Wolves.
Ooooh, I got the wrong end of the stick. Comment withdrawn,
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/15 16:03:35
This is a signature. It contains words of an important or meaningful nature.
2012/02/15 16:29:22
Subject: Re:Why does everyone hate on the Ultramarines?
labmouse42 wrote:I was watching Being Human on Monday night. During the show, the character Sally look at Josh and said the following. (paraphrased)
"Your favorite movie is Star Trek V: The Final Frontier though you tell people it is The Wrath of Khan just so people will think your cool"
I found that line funny on multiple levels. It applies to this conversation because everyone here is playing with toy soldiers. Blue, Red, or Green toy soldiers does not matter to 99.999% of people.
Amen. If you play with little toy soldiers, the colour your little toy soldiers is irrelevant. You're still a nerd.
labmouse42 wrote:I was watching Being Human on Monday night. During the show, the character Sally look at Josh and said the following. (paraphrased)
"Your favorite movie is Star Trek V: The Final Frontier though you tell people it is The Wrath of Khan just so people will think your cool"
I found that line funny on multiple levels. It applies to this conversation because everyone here is playing with toy soldiers. Blue, Red, or Green toy soldiers does not matter to 99.999% of people.
Amen. If you play with little toy soldiers, the colour your little toy soldiers is irrelevant. You're still a nerd.
Also, how spiky, big, angry looking or robot-esque has no impact.
Arguing with some people is like playing chess with a pigeon. You can play the best chess in the world, but at the end of the day the pigeon will still knock all the pieces off the board and then gak all over it.
2012/02/15 16:33:05
Subject: Why does everyone hate on the Ultramarines?
Then, accepting we are nerds, why can't we get involved in the fluff?
I don't give a gak what other people think. If we want to attempt to salvage some social credibility by stepping back and doing 'lol this is a discussion about toys!' then fair enough, but OP clearly cared enough about the fluff and perceptions of it to make this topic, so I think the withdrawal option is a tad redundant, no?
At the end of the day, some of us do care; it's what makes us utter nerds; that we're obsessive enough about the fluff to put the same commitment to memorising/debating it as we would politics or history. I believe the common perception of a geek/nerd is that they'll enthuse about a single topic that they're obsessed with regardless of if anyone else cares or not.
I think what my original issue with people hating on the Ultramarines is the fact that on the table they are just a vanilla Space Marine army. They can't have a troop choice with all power weapons and jump packs, they don't deep strike Landraiders, they don't have the dread knight, they don't have a air craft that carries 20 troop stands plus a dreadnought they don't have a fast moving tank that fires a str 10 ap1 gun, ect.... more practical reasons I can see people hating armies.
I understand the Idea of hating them in the fluff but from what I've taken away since they are the current most numerous Chapter in the universe the 41 millineum is the chapters prime point in their history. All the other Chapters have had wars and battles of glory that numbers in the thousands. Their primarchs played major roles in Imperial history that changed the outcome for humanity in some way shape or form, and being that the Ultramarines were separated from the most crucial event in Imperial history they are just having their time to shine. I feel what Matty did get a little over the top all chapters longing to be the Ultramarines is a little extreme why would they want to loose their personal identity and the identity of their primarch? That being said thou I feel the Ultramaries were originally meant for new comers because their fluff is so vague giving the player the idea you are the one who will write their story, you will play out their age of glory, and you will be the commander who's name will be written in the codices of history.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/15 17:06:17
2012/02/15 17:13:17
Subject: Re:Why does everyone hate on the Ultramarines?
A lot of it appears to be bandwagon, people just hating them for the sake of it.
Personally I've disliked, not hated, them since I first started in the hobby those 17 years or so ago. First thing I don't like about them is their colour scheme. Ultramarines blue I just do not like at all. The darker Crimson Fist blue I sort of like, but I've never been one for blues really. Reds, greens, greys & blacks, yes, but not blues. Secondly they're the 'Codex' Chapter and I've never been able to stick with the popular option in anything - it's the deep-seated British urge to support the underdog, I suppose. I just don't like doing the same thing as everyone else. Any other reasons I can't pin down and put into words but Ultramarines just don't suit me.
2012/02/15 17:16:33
Subject: Why does everyone hate on the Ultramarines?
Henners91 wrote:Then, accepting we are nerds, why can't we get involved in the fluff?
I don't give a gak what other people think. If we want to attempt to salvage some social credibility by stepping back and doing 'lol this is a discussion about toys!' then fair enough, but OP clearly cared enough about the fluff and perceptions of it to make this topic, so I think the withdrawal option is a tad redundant, no?
At the end of the day, some of us do care; it's what makes us utter nerds; that we're obsessive enough about the fluff to put the same commitment to memorising/debating it as we would politics or history. I believe the common perception of a geek/nerd is that they'll enthuse about a single topic that they're obsessed with regardless of if anyone else cares or not.
I am a Dark Angel addict. (Thus the tag.) Why? Because on a simple level, I thought it silly to go onto a lethal future battlefield in neon colors. Dark Angels at least wear a dark green that might actually obscure themselves. No the boys in blue might as well be launching fireworks into the sky and illuminating themselves with their searchlights in my mind.
The wolves go in grey that makes sense as grey -especially in a concrete urban setting will mix in. Bllack templars may stand out like a sore thumb but at night they would be scary to face.
Now we come to the ultimate marine moniker- sorry but for me no ultimate warrior is going to be in blue, yellow or red for that matter and I do have a problem with robes (one mark against the DA). Also DA fluff comes across as the ultimate thinking man's marine - with their one hidden secret. So DA may be the ultimate in combat but they realize they have some limitations and flaws. The Ultramarines hit me as a force of propaganda. They sweep their (many) failures under the rug. They tell everyone they are the best to the point that now they believe it and so it seems in every fluff history, the Ultramarines F-A-I-L but the propaganda machine keeps churning out the garbage and the world keeps believing it. (Think the French in 1870 remembering how awesome they were under Napoleon getting their butts handed to them by the Prussians.)
2000
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WIP
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2012/02/15 17:19:42
Subject: Why does everyone hate on the Ultramarines?
Henners91 wrote:Then, accepting we are nerds, why can't we get involved in the fluff?
I don't give a gak what other people think. If we want to attempt to salvage some social credibility by stepping back and doing 'lol this is a discussion about toys!' then fair enough, but OP clearly cared enough about the fluff and perceptions of it to make this topic, so I think the withdrawal option is a tad redundant, no?
At the end of the day, some of us do care; it's what makes us utter nerds; that we're obsessive enough about the fluff to put the same commitment to memorising/debating it as we would politics or history. I believe the common perception of a geek/nerd is that they'll enthuse about a single topic that they're obsessed with regardless of if anyone else cares or not.
I am a Dark Angel addict. (Thus the tag.) Why? Because on a simple level, I thought it silly to go onto a lethal future battlefield in neon colors. Dark Angels at least wear a dark green that might actually obscure themselves. No the boys in blue might as well be launching fireworks into the sky and illuminating themselves with their searchlights in my mind.
The wolves go in grey that makes sense as grey -especially in a concrete urban setting will mix in. Bllack templars may stand out like a sore thumb but at night they would be scary to face.
Well the Dark Angels also go into battle wearing cream robes and their First Company goes into battle wearing bright white………..
I'm not really sure it's fair to criticise Ultramarines for wearing bright colors when 90% of Marine Chapters do that. (Along with forgetting to wear helmets)
DAaddict wrote:
The Ultramarines hit me as a force of propaganda. They sweep their (many) failures under the rug. They tell everyone they are the best to the point that now they believe it and so it seems in every fluff history, the Ultramarines F-A-I-L but the propaganda machine keeps churning out the garbage and the world keeps believing it. (Think the French in 1870 remembering how awesome they were under Napoleon getting their butts handed to them by the Prussians.)
There is a crucial difference between GW telling us that the Ultramarines are the greatest Chapter and the Ultramarines themselves proclaiming that they are the greatest Chapter. The latter would be pretty arrogant, while the former is merely GW describing the background. This is like saying the Dark Angels go around telling everyone that they have a big secret but aren't telling what it is.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/02/15 17:26:21
2012/02/15 17:31:49
Subject: Re:Why does everyone hate on the Ultramarines?
I have no hate towards ultras nor anyone that likes to play them. Personally, I would not pick them as a chapter to play because they just seem a bit bland to me and I want more spice. With so many different documented chapters, and the ability to create your own, I just wouldn't want to be 'another ultramarine'. The thought of being 'another space marine' is hard enough for me to swallow.
"The earth shakes as they come, and I doubt any creature alive can withstand the full impact of their weight." Chief Madrak Ironhide
2012/02/15 17:32:41
Subject: Why does everyone hate on the Ultramarines?
-Their major characters are OP as hell ( Calgar being able to beat Avatar of Khaine in close combat with one punch and Varro Tigurius rumored to be able to tap to Hive Mind ).
-The most important reason why they are hated is breaking down Legions into Chapters. Space Wolves, Imperial Fists and others would never forget them doing that.
The Spacesues do whatever the hell they want and the Imperial Fists have fully embraced the Codex Astartes. There is no bad blood whatsoever between the two chapters regarding the codex.
-In most resent times they are hated because of Matt Ward and his: "They are so awesome that every other Marine in the galaxy want's to be Ultramarine".
1) My only problem with their characters is that they werent spread to the other chapters. Tellion practically yells Raven Guard and the Tank hero yells Iron Hands. I mean there is no reason why the UM should have the best scouts and best tankers in the galaxy when the Raven Guard and Iron Hands actually specialize in that stuff. However that doesnt upset, I just few it was a missed chance and would have helped alleviate some of the hate towards them. (Chaplain and Librarian are okay mainly because I cant think of a chapter that deserved them better)
2) Thats not really a UM probablem as it is a Roboute Guilliman. I HATE Guiliman for his decisions during and after the Heresy, the Codex Astartes is a shinning monument to his stupidity. Thankfully the fluff now a days like in the UM novels and the Space Marine makes it clear that if you are constantly using the Codex you are eventually going to get fethed.
3) As I said, this is my only problem with them. So it is less I dislike the Ultramarines as it is I dont like how people write about them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AtomicEngineer wrote:Forget the Ultramarines hate...
Wheres the Blood ravens love?
feth the Blood Ravens.
Im a huge Imperial Guard fan so I look at them with major distrust. Thankfully Angellos is in charge so they may deem themselves worthy of the Imperium later
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/02/15 17:34:43
Galdos wrote:
2) Thats not really a UM probablem as it is a Roboute Guilliman. I HATE Guiliman for his decisions during and after the Heresy, the Codex Astartes is a shinning monument to his stupidity. Thankfully the fluff now a days like in the UM novels and the Space Marine makes it clear that if you are constantly using the Codex you are eventually going to get fethed.
Well I have a number of issues with those novels in that they conflict with studio fluff. But if you are using the novels then you have Guilliman himself stating he just intended it to be used as a guide and not a rulebook.
(But the studio fluff points out anyway that the Codex tactics and organization are not mandatory and they can’t really enforce it. All those chapters who follow the Codex follow it because they choose to)
2012/02/15 17:42:52
Subject: Re:Why does everyone hate on the Ultramarines?
Zweischneid wrote:I think there are a few misconceptions about the Codex Astartes.
1) The Codex (in 40.000) is not "Ultramarine Combat Doctrine". It is a "Living document" collecting the "wisdom" and strategems from all loyal codex-chapters from 10.000 years. I vaguely remember a (FW?) story were a particluarly effective Raven Guard strategy was "chosen to be included in the Codex"; which was a great honor. To defy the Codex, is not defying the Ultramarines. It is defying the battle-wisdom of Imperial Fist, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Raven Guard, Salamanders, Crimson Fists, etc.. in equal measure.
3) Claiming other Codex-adherent chapters are "forced" to compy with the Codex (and hating Ultramarines for it) is like hating Ancient Greece for "forcing" Democracy on the US, Canada, etc.. . Ancient Greece was simply the first who adopted it, and at that in an early incarnation that bears little resemblance to the modern thing. But anyone who goes along with it (or against it) 3.000 (or, respectively 10.000) years later does so on their own volition.
1) No actually is is the UM combat doctrine. Guiliman wrote it DURING the Horus Heresy with the intention of spreading it to the other legions. It may have tactics used by the other chapters but it is the Ultarmarine's work. This means if you defy the the Codex, you are defying the Ultramarines. The other chapters could care less if they are defied sense they didnt make it. The UM would care however sense THEY made it.
3) They actually were forced. Ancient Greece didnt open fire and attack the US and threaten all out war with them. The UM threated war and actually attacked the Imperial Fist when they refused to use the codex. Dorn, trying to prevent another Civil War, backed down. This meant that all the founding chapters were expected to follow it.
Now your point 2 is correct. They dont actually enforce it so at any time you can say "feth you guys, Im going my way" and you will be good like the Space Wolves and Black Templar
Galdos wrote:
1) No actually is is the UM combat doctrine. Guiliman wrote it DURING the Horus Heresy with the intention of spreading it to the other legions. It may have tactics used by the other chapters but it is the Ultarmarine's work. This means if you defy the the Codex, you are defying the Ultramarines. The other chapters could care less if they are defied sense they didnt make it. The UM would care however sense THEY made it.
I’m not sure why exactly they would care. If an Ultramarine successor was ignoring it then they might care, but why would they care if the Iron Hands or Space Wolves defy it?
Galdos wrote:
3) They actually were forced. Ancient Greece didnt open fire and attack the US and threaten all out war with them. The UM threated war and actually attacked the Imperial Fist when they refused to use the codex. Dorn, trying to prevent another Civil War, backed down. This meant that all the founding chapters were expected to follow it.
No, that was just about the size limits and breaking up the Legions. If everybody was forced at gunpoint to adopt every aspect of the Codex, then why do the Iron Hands and Salamanders have non-Codex elements? Why are the Space Wolves and Templars non-Codex then?
2012/02/15 17:46:32
Subject: Why does everyone hate on the Ultramarines?
Galdos wrote:
2) Thats not really a UM probablem as it is a Roboute Guilliman. I HATE Guiliman for his decisions during and after the Heresy, the Codex Astartes is a shinning monument to his stupidity. Thankfully the fluff now a days like in the UM novels and the Space Marine makes it clear that if you are constantly using the Codex you are eventually going to get fethed.
Well I have a number of issues with those novels in that they conflict with studio fluff. But if you are using the novels then you have Guilliman himself stating he just intended it to be used as a guide and not a rulebook.
(But the studio fluff points out anyway that the Codex tactics and organization are not mandatory and they can’t really enforce it. All those chapters who follow the Codex follow it because they choose to)
Thats a good point he does say that. However he kind of picks and choose what parts are mandatory. He pretty much tells everyone and threatens war with the Imperial Fist if they dont have founding chapters and limit themselves to a 1000 Marines. After he convinced everyone to follow him he kind of stopped enforcing it *shrugs* kind of strange now that I think of it. You think they would have a problem with the Black Templars
Galdos wrote:
2) Thats not really a UM probablem as it is a Roboute Guilliman. I HATE Guiliman for his decisions during and after the Heresy, the Codex Astartes is a shinning monument to his stupidity. Thankfully the fluff now a days like in the UM novels and the Space Marine makes it clear that if you are constantly using the Codex you are eventually going to get fethed.
Well I have a number of issues with those novels in that they conflict with studio fluff. But if you are using the novels then you have Guilliman himself stating he just intended it to be used as a guide and not a rulebook.
(But the studio fluff points out anyway that the Codex tactics and organization are not mandatory and they can’t really enforce it. All those chapters who follow the Codex follow it because they choose to)
Thats a good point he does say that. However he kind of picks and choose what parts are mandatory. He pretty much tells everyone and threatens war with the Imperial Fist if they dont have founding chapters and limit themselves to a 1000 Marines. After he convinced everyone to follow him he kind of stopped enforcing it *shrugs* kind of strange now that I think of it. You think they would have a problem with the Black Templars
Although you are not being fair here. It was Dorn who at least was contributing to the dispute and technically Dorn who was defying the Imperium. Guilliman was charged by the High Lords (As I noted earlier) and he had the support of most of the Primarchs. This was not something Guilliman decided on a whim, it was what the Imperium wanted.
Originally it was Guilliman, The Khan and Corax against Dorn, Russ and Vulkan. However Imperial Armour 10 retconned Vulkan into being a strong Guilliman supporter. So technically Dorn and Russ are being outvoted here.
Galdos wrote:
You think they would have a problem with the Black Templars
The Index Astartes article notes that nobody can prove anything about the size of the Templars.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/15 17:50:04
2012/02/15 17:50:18
Subject: Re:Why does everyone hate on the Ultramarines?
Galdos wrote:
1) No actually is is the UM combat doctrine. Guiliman wrote it DURING the Horus Heresy with the intention of spreading it to the other legions. It may have tactics used by the other chapters but it is the Ultarmarine's work. This means if you defy the the Codex, you are defying the Ultramarines. The other chapters could care less if they are defied sense they didnt make it. The UM would care however sense THEY made it.
I’m not sure why exactly they would care. If an Ultramarine successor was ignoring it then they might care, but why would they care if the Iron Hands or Space Wolves defy it?
Galdos wrote:
3) They actually were forced. Ancient Greece didnt open fire and attack the US and threaten all out war with them. The UM threated war and actually attacked the Imperial Fist when they refused to use the codex. Dorn, trying to prevent another Civil War, backed down. This meant that all the founding chapters were expected to follow it.
No, that was just about the size limits and breaking up the Legions. If everybody was forced at gunpoint to adopt every aspect of the Codex, then why do the Iron Hands and Salamanders have non-Codex elements? Why are the Space Wolves and Templars non-Codex then?
1) You are right, I guess they wouldnt actually care anymore. I was refering more to the fact that its the Ultramarines work, not the work of the other chapters.
3) They adobted them at later points or they are close enough? Studio mistakes? *shrugs* I dont know. That is a great question about the other two, why did they let them be non-codex yet before the Siege of Terra he was training his men to fight Salemanders and actually opened fire on the Imperial Fist to make sure he was listened too.
These could just be the signs of multiple writers not talking to each other properly
Galdos wrote:3) They adobted them at later points or they are close enough? Studio mistakes? *shrugs* I dont know. That is a great question about the other two, why did they let them be non-codex yet before the Siege of Terra he was training his men to fight Salemanders and actually opened fire on the Imperial Fist to make sure he was listened too.
These could just be the signs of multiple writers not talking to each other properly
I cannot pretend to understand what the Black Library authors are talking about. However in the original Index Astartes fluff, the only issue Dorn and Russ had was the breaking of the Legions. There was nothing recorded about combat doctrines.
I guess that is based in the various sources describing the Imperial Fists as very close adherents to the Codex doctrine, often even described as second only to the Ultramarines in that respect. Since you couldn't exactly say the same thing about any of the other First Founding Chapters, that was apparently not mandated and instead decided by Dorn on his own free will. Dorn was against dividing his Legion, but once that issue was dealt with, there was nothing more stopping him to embrace the Codex. Also "embracing the Codex" (a term which is used in the Imperial Fists' Index Astartes article) is a very positive terminology.
If Dorn hated the tactical and organization aspects of the Codex then he would simply change the Fists back to the non-Codex ways after Guilliman was interned in the stasis field. (Dorn having outlived all the other Primarchs)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/02/15 17:55:47
2012/02/15 17:59:33
Subject: Why does everyone hate on the Ultramarines?
Gree wrote:Because people like to hate the posterboy.
Right, and in addition to all that - all stuf that I said upstair. Maybe you are seeing it different but people are seeing it that, nothing can be done to help. Just read this:
Spoiler:
The Ultramarines have some of the most boring 1st founding histories for any Astartes Chapter in the Imperial history.
Circa M29: The Unification Wars. The Emperor of Mankind unites Terra, and sets off to conquer the stars in a series of violent and bloody battles. The Ultramarines’ Primarch, Roboute Guilliman (Nicknamed Rowboat Girlyman for being an utter gakker during the Heresy), is conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
969.M30: The Sacking of Monarchia. As part of the rebuke of Lorgar and the Word Bearers for spreading the Cult of the Lectitio Divinatus, the Emperor of Mankind orders the Ultramarines to destroy the city of Monarchia, which had exemplified the Word Bearers accomplishments. Following the sacking of the city, the Emperor orders Lorgar and the Word Bearers to kneel before Himself, Malcador the Sigilite, and Roboute Guilliman as they re-pledge themselves to the Great Crusade. His faith in the Emperor's divinity shattered, Lorgar is corrupted by First Captain Kor Phaeron and First Chaplain Erebus into worshipping the Chaos Gods. Meaning that the Ultramarines are partly responsible for...
012.M31-014.M31: The Horus Heresy. Nine of the twenty Space Marine legions, fully half of the Adeptus Mechanicus and numerous Imperial Guard regiments betray the Emperor of Mankind and turn to Chaos. Under the leadership of Warmaster Horus of the Sons of Horus, the traitors turn on their fellow Legions, causing serious losses. The Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Raven Guard are nearly destroyed during the Drop Site Massacre of Isstvan V (including the death of Primarch Ferrus Manus and the disappearance of Primarch Vulkan), the Dark Angels lose their homeworld (and possibly their Primarch Lion El'Jonson) to renegade elements within their home planet A COMPLETELY RANDOM ACCIDENT AND NOT HERESY, while the Space Wolves are bogged down in a protracted battle with the Thousand Sons. Only the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, and White Scars are able to return before the traitors lay Siege to Holy Terra, where they take serious losses (including the death of Primarch Sanguinius). The Emperor defeats Horus, causing the traitors to scatter, but is crippled and forced to ascend the Golden Throne. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs being trolled by the Word Bearers. After the Heresy, Rowboat Girlyman formed the High Lords of Terra and created the Codex Astartes as we know it today, including the separation of the 10,000 strong legions into 1,000 strong chapters. Note that the Ultramarines didn't participate in the defense of Terra, didn't sustain crippling damage to their Chapter's manpower, and note that, best of all, when they arrived they were too fething late. The war was already won, yet their primarch still was the first to create the new rules.
546.M32: 'The Beheading': The High Lords of Terra are all slain on the orders of Drakan Vangorich, Grand Master of the Officio Assassinorum. The rogue Master of Assassins is tracked down and slain by a Space Marine strikeforce drawn from the Imperial Fists, Halo Brethren and Sable Swords. Of over a thousand men deployed, only a single Space Marine survives the campaign. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
843.M35: Distress call from Grendel's World investigated. Planet discovered to have been attacked and all inhabitants slain by terror tactics of the Night Lords. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
Early M36: The Age of Apostasy and the Reign of Blood begin. Warp storms increase dramatically and Chaos and Ork attacks multiply. The Imperium falls into turmoil. An empowered Ecclesiarchy becomes more tyrannical. High Lord Goge Vandire, Master of the Administratum, assumes the post of Ecclesiarch, becomes the most powerful member of the Senate of the High Lords of Terra, and manipulates a small sect, the Daughters of the Emperor (today the Sisters of Battle), into becoming his personal bodyguards, the Brides of the Emperor. Vandire rules largely unopposed and becomes more and more bloody and tyrannical. Zhoros, homeworld of the Fire Hawks' chapter, is thermal bombed. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
266.M36: Sebastian Thor is born on Dimmamar. He eventually becomes a threat to Vandire, who sends the Frateris Templar fleet to destroy Dimmamar. The fleet is completely destroyed by a warp storm, still in existence today, named the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath in the Clax system. Vandire's armies are finally defeated by combined forces of the Tech Guard and several chapters of Space Marines, organized under the banner of the Confederation of Light, led by Thor. Vandire is executed by Alicia Dominica, the leader of his own bodyguards, who reclaim their old name Daughters of the Emperor in a conspiracy involving the Adeptus Custodes and the Emperor himself. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
723.M36: The 5th Black Crusade begins. Doombreed, a deamon prince of Khorne, declares war on the Adeptus Astartes. The Warhawks and the Venerators are lost. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
995.M40-000.M41 The Macharian Crusades. Macharius, Lord Commander of the Segmentum Solar, sets out to reconquer the Segmentum Pacificus for the Imperium. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
444.M41: First War for Armageddon. Chaos incursion led by Angron and his World Eaters beaten back by the Space Wolves and Grey Knights but only at a terrible cost. Only about a dozen of the Grey Knights survive the battle with Angron. The local planetary militia and the other citizens are mind-wiped, sterilized and put into work camps, to slave away for the rest of their short, miserable lives much to the horror of Logan Grimnar. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
742.M41 Damocles Crusade is launched against the Tau Empire, due to the Imperium's ever growing Xenophobia, a small, strategically insignificant piece of nothingness, inhabited by weak fish people with minimal Faster-Than-Light Technology. The Ultramarines are thoroughly defeated along with the rest of the Imperial forces. Those "aberrations" known as the Black Templars come in and beat the hell out of the Tau after the Ultramarines leave for the...
745.M41: First Tyrannic War. Hive Fleet Behemoth attacks the Ultramarines' homeworld, Macragge. Most of the chapter is eaten by Nids and lose their entire 1st company, the Chapter's company of hardened veterans and Terminators. The second fight they get and they still blew it, lulz.
754-775.M41: Sabbat Worlds Crusade. The Imperium deploys a massive force under Warmaster Slaydo to retake the Sabbat Worlds from the forces of Chaos. Several Space Marine chapters participate, including the White Scars and those "aberrations" called the Raven Guard and the Imperial Fists, eventually succeeding in driving Chaos from the sector. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
897.M41: Battle of Sanctuary 101. The Necrons attack the Adepta Sororitas at the fortress-convent of Sanctuary 101, with every sister slaughtered to the last woman, marking first contact between the Imperium and the Necrons. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
901-912.M41 Badab War. The Astral Claws, Lamenters, Executioners, and Mantis Warriors chapters rebel against the Imperium, and are defeated by loyalist chapters. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
941-942.M41: Second War for Armageddon. The Ultramarines bump into Waaagh! Ghazghull while running away from the Tyranids. They are saved by the timely intervention of Commissar Yarrick and the Blood Angels. Marneus Calgar's first action is to acknowledge Dante as overall commander of the Space Marines on Armageddon.
988.M41: The battle of Rynn's World begins. A large ork army, led by the Warboss Snagrod, attacks the Crimson Fists and their homeworld. During the battle, a stray missile strikes the Fortress-Monastery of the Crimson Fists, killing most of the Marines. The survivors are severely crippled and are forced to rebuild their chapter. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
757998.M41: The Third War for Armageddon begins. Having learned from past mistakes, Imperial Commanders commit a ridiculous amount of forces to hold the world. It drags on for months in a bloody stalemate until Ghazghull grows bored and leaves his generals to finish the fight while he goes looking for other worlds to conquer. Commissar Yarrick joins a Black Templars Crusade and gives chase. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
5999.M41: Warmaster Abaddon launches the 13th Black Crusade. The armies of Chaos Undivided lay siege primarily to Cadia but attack many of the surrounding worlds as well. Imperial Forces launch a massive counterattack, and eventually push back the tides of Chaos, but only just barely, and at great cost. The Space Wolves' 13th Company are amongst the forces seen fighting against the forces of Chaos. The Ultramarines were apparently man enough to get into the fighting... by offering some honor guard units that barely made up half a company. Yes, we're facepalming with you too.
As an additional note of interest, there stands reasonable evidence that the Ultramarines are partially responsible for unleashing the Nightbringer on the galaxy in the current age. On the planet Pavonis, it was brought to the attention of Uriel Ventris, of the 4th company of the Ultramarines, that a group of revolutionaries were digging their way straight to the Nightbringer's sarcophagus while the Dark Eldar rounded up the keys to unlock the thing. Uriel was given a choice: he could either exterminatus the planet, burying the Nightbringer, revolutionaries, and Dark Eldar all at once in a single fell swoop, or he could boost his own ego by making a balls-first attack on the excavation site with nothing but chain swords and bolters. Unfortunately for the entire galaxy, Uriel chose the latter of these options, lost the fight, and let the Nightbringer get free. Which in lay man's terms means that they made the single largest feth up to end all feth ups of all time. Oops...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/15 17:59:45
For Emperor and Imperium!!!! None shall stand against the Crusade of the Righteous!!! Kanluwen wrote: "I like the Tau. I just don't like people misconstruing things to say that it means that they're somehow a huge galactic threat. They're not. They're a threat to the Imperium of Man like sharks are a threat to the US Army."
"Pain is temporary, honor is forever" Emperor of Mankind:
"The day I have a sit-down with a pansy elf, magic mushroom, or commie frog is the day I put a bolt shell in my head."
in your name it shall be done" My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/2SSSR2
Viersche wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
the Emperor might be the greatest psyker that ever lived, but he doesn't have the specialized training that a Grey Knight has. Also he doesn't have a Grey Knight's unshakable faith in the Emperor.
The Emperor doesn't have a GKs unshakable faith in the Emperor which is....basically himself?
Ronin wrote:
"Brother Coa (and the OP Tadashi) is like, the biggest IoM fanboy I can think of here. It's like he IS from the Imperium, sent back in time and across dimensions."
2012/02/15 18:01:43
Subject: Why does everyone hate on the Ultramarines?
Brother Coa wrote:
Right, and in addition to all that - all stuf that I said upstair. Maybe you are seeing it different but people are seeing it that, nothing can be done to help.
Just read this:
I assume you got that from 4chan? It’s funny, but mostly taken out of context or just flat out false in many parts. Anybodyu who has read the original fluff can tell you that.
2012/02/15 18:05:29
Subject: Why does everyone hate on the Ultramarines?
Anyway - that is what people think about Ultramrines being wrong or right.
For Emperor and Imperium!!!! None shall stand against the Crusade of the Righteous!!! Kanluwen wrote: "I like the Tau. I just don't like people misconstruing things to say that it means that they're somehow a huge galactic threat. They're not. They're a threat to the Imperium of Man like sharks are a threat to the US Army."
"Pain is temporary, honor is forever" Emperor of Mankind:
"The day I have a sit-down with a pansy elf, magic mushroom, or commie frog is the day I put a bolt shell in my head."
in your name it shall be done" My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/2SSSR2
Viersche wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
the Emperor might be the greatest psyker that ever lived, but he doesn't have the specialized training that a Grey Knight has. Also he doesn't have a Grey Knight's unshakable faith in the Emperor.
The Emperor doesn't have a GKs unshakable faith in the Emperor which is....basically himself?
Ronin wrote:
"Brother Coa (and the OP Tadashi) is like, the biggest IoM fanboy I can think of here. It's like he IS from the Imperium, sent back in time and across dimensions."
2012/02/15 18:06:59
Subject: Why does everyone hate on the Ultramarines?
Brother Coa wrote:Anyway - that is what people think about Ultramrines being wrong or right.
No, that is what 4chan thinks of the Ultramarines. If you have ever been to Warseer and Bolter and Chainsword, they don't exactly hold the majority opinion.
2012/02/15 18:09:13
Subject: Why does everyone hate on the Ultramarines?
*bursts though room with axe* HEEEAAARRRS JHONNY!!!
DarthSpader wrote:i think mainly it has to do with GW selecting the ultrasmurfs as the poster boy for the hobby. thus, any new players tend to go for the marines, (as these often star in demo games and painting lessons) simply because of the above, the fact they are "easy" to build, painting is also a touch simpler, and they are the "good guys" of the galaxy. the blue ones are also on the box covers, and so on, so obviously newer players who dont really have an idea for their own chapter will paint them blue. that and blue is a pretty easy color to paint. white,red,yellow etc all require multiple thin layers and are more complex to do right, then a 1 coat done blue.
this leads to a horde of 12-15 yr olds playing the ultra marines, and obviously they are less superioir in gaming then you - who has IG/GK/DE/eldar/chaos etc.... so they get looked down on.
a local saying here: "if you see a 13 yr old boy in a gaming store he's either playing yugioh or ultramarines"
i thnk it applies worldwide and no doubt is used on many other locations - because its true.
Then you should see our Facebook groups. Out of 2000 members I think 1500 don't like them at all. Same as with Dakka, we had thread about Ultras here some time ago, and the result was that many people find them boring or hate them. Rarely who respect them. Now mostly because of Matt and his "spiritual league" thing.
I think that they need to change poster chapter and redo the "greatest of them all" sentence since Ultramarines aren't greatest of them all at all.
For Emperor and Imperium!!!! None shall stand against the Crusade of the Righteous!!! Kanluwen wrote: "I like the Tau. I just don't like people misconstruing things to say that it means that they're somehow a huge galactic threat. They're not. They're a threat to the Imperium of Man like sharks are a threat to the US Army."
"Pain is temporary, honor is forever" Emperor of Mankind:
"The day I have a sit-down with a pansy elf, magic mushroom, or commie frog is the day I put a bolt shell in my head."
in your name it shall be done" My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/2SSSR2
Viersche wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
the Emperor might be the greatest psyker that ever lived, but he doesn't have the specialized training that a Grey Knight has. Also he doesn't have a Grey Knight's unshakable faith in the Emperor.
The Emperor doesn't have a GKs unshakable faith in the Emperor which is....basically himself?
Ronin wrote:
"Brother Coa (and the OP Tadashi) is like, the biggest IoM fanboy I can think of here. It's like he IS from the Imperium, sent back in time and across dimensions."
3000 -3500 points. 50% Painted.
150 points (Work in progress) 40% painted
2000
2000
WIP
3000
8000 
For Emperor and Imperium!!!! 
"Pain is temporary, honor is forever" 
in your name it shall be done" 
Night Lords (40k): 3500pts
Klan Zaw Klan: 4000pts
