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enfernux wrote:

Gree wrote: The Tyrannic War Veterans were described as a diverging from the Codex tennets, but not as a newly formed force. So it seems that they are still squads of the First Company. but with the new fluff the Codex is now cited as precedent for their formation and they no longer break the Codex.

so you are part of an organisation, but just because you are in a separate subforce of the organisation, you dont have to follow the rules, although you are still a part of the greater whole and not a separate organisation. Does that only sound stupid to me?

"I'm a part of the first company, but im fluff, so i dont have to follow codex astartes..." - dont increase my bulets size for spacesmurfs

But they do follow the Codex Astartes now. I just provided the relevant quote from the sourcebook that actually cited the Codex as a precedent for creating them. Hence why I said they retconned them. Did you read my entire post? The original deviation, as I pointed out, was a change in training and preperation, but how they organized themselves. But that has been retconned now.

The Crusader wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote: His brothers? I think you misjudge them. They were all petty, arrogant, prideful dickbags (seems like it came with the territory of being a semi-divine superbeing)

Dick-bags?
So you're saying that the legions that fought at the siege of Terra AND WON are Dick-Bags, correct? I'd just like to make it clear that had those dick-bags not been prideful and tenacious and fallen back, then Horus and his entourage would've come gallavanting down to ultramar and shown you what a true ass-kicking is

No, I'm saying that all of the primarchs were petty and arrogant. As someone who is both arrogant, and a dick-bag, I can identify my own kind. I'm just not as petty as them. I mean, look at the lore. Half of the primarchs fell to Chaos, the majority of them over pride or other failings. Horus and Fulgrim for sure. Lorgar has enough emotional issues to fill a news-stand, but ultimately it was his pride and petty hatred of Guilliman that led him astray. The loyalists weren't much better. In Deliverance Lost, Corax feels like he might have been able to kill both Kurze, and Lorgar (whom Corax called "worthless" lol) at the same time.

I think, no wait, I know, that you're confused. I'm not writing this as an Ultramarines fan. Just a 40K fan objectively analyzing and identifying characters. So you can drop the "first person" speech. Nobody in 40K would have ever shown me what a true ass kicking is, because they're all imaginary. What I think I need to make clear is that you need to do closer readings before you respond.

Durza wrote:
Technically, the legions on Terra would have lost if not for an insane gambit by the Emperor. Their tenacity had little to do with it.

The other way around. The loyalist had reinforcements coming that was going to secure victory for them. Horus made an insane gambit by dropping the shields of his ship knowing the Emperor would come and challenge him.

Galdos wrote:

Durza wrote:
Technically, the legions on Terra would have lost if not for an insane gambit by the Emperor. Their tenacity had little to do with it.

The other way around. The loyalist had reinforcements coming that was going to secure victory for them. Horus made an insane gambit by dropping the shields of his ship knowing the Emperor would come and challenge him.

Galdos is completely right. The siege of Terra went wrong for the traitors in pretty much every way it could. It was turning into a rout.

I play Ultramarines 4th Company, and did before they had a book about them.

And then they became popular, now I want to go to 3rd company, but painting that banner would be to much work.

I secretly hate Second Company, of course, because of Sicarius' ability to steal the spotlight and screw over Agemman.

Durza wrote:
Technically, the legions on Terra would have lost if not for an insane gambit by the Emperor. Their tenacity had little to do with it.

Right....saying that and totally ignoring the fact that 3 loyalist Legions were coming and that Horus would lose anyway...

At best it would have been a win for Horus, at worst it would have been a loss for both Horus and the Imperium.

The fluff has made it pretty clear that Horus was basically lodged right up the Emperor's ass and about to deliver the death blow when his ship's shields went off for unknown reasons (I still love the theory of an Eldar strike force sabotaging them, personally).

The point being, even if the three legions had arrived in time to defeat what was left of Horus' forces, they wouldn't have got there in time to save the Emperor.

Crazyterran wrote:I play Ultramarines 4th Company, and did before they had a book about them.

And then they became popular, now I want to go to 3rd company, but painting that banner would be to much work.

I secretly hate Second Company, of course, because of Sicarius' ability to steal the spotlight and screw over Agemman.

I actually have never understood why people say Ultramarines are "popular". I have NEVER seen an actual ultramarines army in my 12 years of playing this game. Somehow Ultramarines are both the "most common" and "most elusive" chapter I have ever heard of.

When I see a marine army they are never blue. The only blue marines I have seen are store demos and on GWs page. There was a fully painted ultramarine army in a display case at a GW that was won by someone over a summer campaign, however I never saw him field it after that. Every marine army I see is one of the following. Base coated black and "a work in progress" and they stay that way for years. Has one squad painted as salamanders, has terminator in yellow armor leading a squad in red and is generally all over the place. Or is green. It is an incredibly rarity that I see anything different. (Though I have seen a fully painted imperial fist army and I felt bad after every kill because he had to remove one of his gorgeous paint jobs, that yellow is stupid hard to paint.)

Sure I have seen an army of marine "torsos and legs on bases" that is supposedly lead by the only finished model who is representing calgar or sicarius. But 3 months later those torsos grew arms with melta guns and calgar has changed his name to vulkan.

Anyways my point is that while I might not like the ultramarines in the fluff. (They are no where near the abomination that is the GK) When it comes to everyone refusing to paint their models blue because they want to be different I just shake my head.

BlaxicanX wrote:
The fluff has made it pretty clear that Horus was basically lodged right up the Emperor's ass and about to deliver the death blow when his ship's shields went off for unknown reasons (I still love the theory of an Eldar strike force sabotaging them, personally).

What are you talking about? Emperor didn't want to kill Horus even if he received deadly wound from him. Only when Horus killed Pius ( feth you GW and your removal of cool characters ) did the Emperor use his full power and killed Horus. Horus deliberately lower down his shields to try to kill Emperor in 1 on 1 combat because it was his only way out of there.
Read Horus Heresy...

The point being, even if the three legions had arrived in time to defeat what was left of Horus' forces, they wouldn't have got there in time to save the Emperor.

True, but if Emperor remained on Terra and hold out a little longer Horus woul have to deal with over 250.000 Space Marines and he lacked troops for that.

IcedAnimals wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:I play Ultramarines 4th Company, and did before they had a book about them.

And then they became popular, now I want to go to 3rd company, but painting that banner would be to much work.

I secretly hate Second Company, of course, because of Sicarius' ability to steal the spotlight and screw over Agemman.

I actually have never understood why people say Ultramarines are "popular". I have NEVER seen an actual ultramarines army in my 12 years of playing this game. Somehow Ultramarines are both the "most common" and "most elusive" chapter I have ever heard of.

When I see a marine army they are never blue. The only blue marines I have seen are store demos and on GWs page. There was a fully painted ultramarine army in a display case at a GW that was won by someone over a summer campaign, however I never saw him field it after that. Every marine army I see is one of the following. Base coated black and "a work in progress" and they stay that way for years. Has one squad painted as salamanders, has terminator in yellow armor leading a squad in red and is generally all over the place. Or is green. It is an incredibly rarity that I see anything different. (Though I have seen a fully painted imperial fist army and I felt bad after every kill because he had to remove one of his gorgeous paint jobs, that yellow is stupid hard to paint.)

Sure I have seen an army of marine "torsos and legs on bases" that is supposedly lead by the only finished model who is representing calgar or sicarius. But 3 months later those torsos grew arms with melta guns and calgar has changed his name to vulkan.

Anyways my point is that while I might not like the ultramarines in the fluff. (They are no where near the abomination that is the GK) When it comes to everyone refusing to paint their models blue because they want to be different I just shake my head.

Yeah, there's only one other guy i've seen at my local GW play Ultramarines, and he plays 4th Company too.

There used to be 3-4 guys, but i guess they've movedon.

I persoanlly hate fielding models that are unpainted, but i might have to for the 25th Anniversary this weekend. Repainting my army to match my current standards is a lot of work. (Not to mention i had my wisdom teeth pulled this week too, and that has removed almost a day of painting.)

Brother Coa wrote:What are you talking about? Emperor didn't want to kill Horus even if he received deadly wound from him. Only when Horus killed Pius ( feth you GW and your removal of cool characters ) did the Emperor use his full power and killed Horus. Horus deliberately lower down his shields to try to kill Emperor in 1 on 1 combat because it was his only way out of there.
Read Horus Heresy...

I'm not talking about when the Emperor got on the ship; I'm referring to before that when he was still on Terra.

True, but if Emperor remained on Terra and hold out a little longer Horus woul have to deal with over 250.000 Space Marines and he lacked troops for that.

The point is that he wouldn't have been able too. Horus' forces had fethed up Terra's defenses so badly that warping onto Horus' ship was the only thing he icould do to survive. There was no other option.

Which speaks to the sheer convenience of Horus' shields dropping. If he had decided to keep his shields up and just bombard the Emperor's location from orbit, there's nothing the Emperor would have been able to do to survive.

DarkWind wrote:This is something I have always wondered. Since I first started the game I have always wanted to field a Ultramarine army, but due to peoples personal opinion and my pathetic need to be accepted by everyone I never touched them. Now I'm finally over that I'm going forward to build a Ultramarine army.

So now to my question... Why do people hate them so?

Because they're the Nickelback of 40k

BlaxicanX wrote:The fluff has made it pretty clear

Actually, the fluff has changed on this story, and is certain to change again because the guys at Black Library feel like they have to put their mushroom stamp on everything instead of just using what already exists, lol.

But the story has also been both that Horus lowered his shields so he could watch the final defeat of the Emperor, and the Emperor sensed it and teleported aboard, and the alternate that Horus had lowered his shields on purpose to lure the Emperor aboard.

BlaxicanX wrote:The point is that he wouldn't have been able too. Horus' forces had fethed up Terra's defenses so badly that warping onto Horus' ship was the only thing he icould do to survive. There was no other option.

Which speaks to the sheer convenience of Horus' shields dropping. If he had decided to keep his shields up and just bombard the Emperor's location from orbit, there's nothing the Emperor would have been able to do to survive.

There is nothing to suggest that Horus had the ability to simply bombard Imperial Palace into rubble at any point. The Void Shields protecting against orbital bombardment may have been separate from ones primarily protecting against ground assaults. The only way in for the Traitors has been portrayed as on the ground. They didn't have enough time to penetrate the Throne Room before the Loyalist reinforcements caught up and hit them hammer and anvil style. Even if Horus had the opportunity to bombard the defenders at lesiure it's still unlikely he could have survived the counterattack from the Loyalist reinforcements. Horus bet everything on one final strike and he failed. He had the advantages of surprise and the backing of the Chaos Gods but his forces, aside from Daemons, were outnumbered by the total number of the Loyalists.

DarthSpader wrote:i think mainly it has to do with GW selecting the ultrasmurfs as the poster boy for the hobby. thus, any new players tend to go for the marines, (as these often star in demo games and painting lessons) simply because of the above, the fact they are "easy" to build, painting is also a touch simpler, and they are the "good guys" of the galaxy. the blue ones are also on the box covers, and so on, so obviously newer players who dont really have an idea for their own chapter will paint them blue. that and blue is a pretty easy color to paint. white,red,yellow etc all require multiple thin layers and are more complex to do right, then a 1 coat done blue.

this leads to a horde of 12-15 yr olds playing the ultra marines, and obviously they are less superioir in gaming then you - who has IG/GK/DE/eldar/chaos etc.... so they get looked down on.

a local saying here: "if you see a 13 yr old boy in a gaming store he's either playing yugioh or ultramarines"

i thnk it applies worldwide and no doubt is used on many other locations - because its true.

This. They receive so much attention from GW, as well as being so vanilla and plain and even boring really, that the other chapters are almost ignored.

Plus, every child to ever walk into a GW ever has left with an ultramarine army.


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SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:The point is that he wouldn't have been able too. Horus' forces had fethed up Terra's defenses so badly that warping onto Horus' ship was the only thing he icould do to survive. There was no other option.

Which speaks to the sheer convenience of Horus' shields dropping. If he had decided to keep his shields up and just bombard the Emperor's location from orbit, there's nothing the Emperor would have been able to do to survive.

There is nothing to suggest that Horus had the ability to simply bombard Imperial Palace into rubble at any point. The Void Shields protecting against orbital bombardment may have been separate from ones primarily protecting against ground assaults. The only way in for the Traitors has been portrayed as on the ground. They didn't have enough time to penetrate the Throne Room before the Loyalist reinforcements caught up and hit them hammer and anvil style. Even if Horus had the opportunity to bombard the defenders at lesiure it's still unlikely he could have survived the counterattack from the Loyalist reinforcements. Horus bet everything on one final strike and he failed. He had the advantages of surprise and the backing of the Chaos Gods but his forces, aside from Daemons, were outnumbered by the total number of the Loyalists.

exactly. They landed forces because of nearby captured spaceports, nothing to do with the IP voids going down.

im2randomghgh wrote:
This. They receive so much attention from GW, as well as being so vanilla and plain and even boring really, that the other chapters are almost ignored.

Plus, every child to ever walk into a GW ever has left with an ultramarine army.

maybe we are an exception, but in my town, this doesnt happen. Maybe because in Hungary, every child has about 2k Forints of pocket money per weak, and a regular battleforce cost 21k+ w out the equipment to make them a good lookin army - we usually use gf's nail paint for base black coating

im2randomghgh wrote:
Plus, every child to ever walk into a GW ever has left with an ultramarine army.

That's funny, in my years of playing the game, I've only ever seen one Ultramarine army, and it was owned by a veteran player who liked the colour scheme.
I certainly didn't walk out with an Ultramarine army the first time I entered a GW store. They looked (and still look, come to think of it) an awful lot like Word Bearers to me.
Crappily painted Word Bearers, but that's beside the point.

enfernux wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
This. They receive so much attention from GW, as well as being so vanilla and plain and even boring really, that the other chapters are almost ignored.

Plus, every child to ever walk into a GW ever has left with an ultramarine army.

maybe we are an exception, but in my town, this doesnt happen. Maybe because in Hungary, every child has about 2k Forints of pocket money per weak, and a regular battleforce cost 21k+ w out the equipment to make them a good lookin army - we usually use gf's nail paint for base black coating

Obviously have their parents buy it, nowhere in the world are normal children rich enough to buy a full 40k army without help.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
Plus, every child to ever walk into a GW ever has left with an ultramarine army.

That's funny, in my years of playing the game, I've only ever seen one Ultramarine army, and it was owned by a veteran player who liked the colour scheme.
I certainly didn't walk out with an Ultramarine army the first time I entered a GW store. They looked (and still look, come to think of it) an awful lot like Word Bearers to me.
Crappily painted Word Bearers, but that's beside the point.

There are 7 ultrasmurfs armies at my FLGS, and only one of them is owned by a player old enough to drive.

I love playing UM. I've got the entire 2nd Company (painted), most of the 1st, and a squad of 3rd tacts (check my gallery photos and my army in the Army Profiles section).

There's such a low expectation when I unpack my blues and I love that. My record speaks for itself. Almost all of those are blind tournament games too.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:That's funny, in my years of playing the game, I've only ever seen one Ultramarine army, and it was owned by a veteran player who liked the colour scheme.
I certainly didn't walk out with an Ultramarine army the first time I entered a GW store. They looked (and still look, come to think of it) an awful lot like Word Bearers to me.
Crappily painted Word Bearers, but that's beside the point.

There are 7 ultrasmurfs armies at my FLGS, and only one of them is owned by a player old enough to drive.

Seems more like yours is the exception rather than the rule.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Warrior_Kings_of_Ultramar

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/317735-Core%20Units.html?m=2

I've found these to be pretty typical in my area. I don't get the hate for UM, it should be for the unpainted gray SW/BA/BT armies that actually do dominate the metagame

You're probably right, the "greatest of them all" is probably the least played of them all these days.

Lobukia wrote:BT armies that actually do dominate the metagame

No.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:That's funny, in my years of playing the game, I've only ever seen one Ultramarine army, and it was owned by a veteran player who liked the colour scheme.
I certainly didn't walk out with an Ultramarine army the first time I entered a GW store. They looked (and still look, come to think of it) an awful lot like Word Bearers to me.
Crappily painted Word Bearers, but that's beside the point.

There are 7 ultrasmurfs armies at my FLGS, and only one of them is owned by a player old enough to drive.

Seems more like yours is the exception rather than the rule.

I know mine is an extreme example, but I have been to other GW and noticed similar (though less extreme) occurrences of this "10yr old magnet" effect the UM have.

im2randomghgh wrote:Obviously have their parents buy it, nowhere in the world are normal children rich enough to buy a full 40k army without help.

i wont bother anyone with the details, but no, not even two parents can afford a single battle force for one child, so by the time you get to play wh40k, you are old enough to not be magneted in to fluffy gloryhounds collection.
the only time i saw a spacesmurf was at a local house tournament, and although he did a good job at painting it in a dull manner - can you do it otherwise?? - he brought a list that would devastate all GEQ...well except for my mech'dar that speedid the poo out of him. it realy wasnt his fault, but when i saw that gloryhound army, i almost had to talk to the organiser to let me play against it, as did everyone else

im2randomghgh wrote:

Lobukia wrote:BT armies that actually do dominate the metagame

No.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:That's funny, in my years of playing the game, I've only ever seen one Ultramarine army, and it was owned by a veteran player who liked the colour scheme.
I certainly didn't walk out with an Ultramarine army the first time I entered a GW store. They looked (and still look, come to think of it) an awful lot like Word Bearers to me.
Crappily painted Word Bearers, but that's beside the point.

There are 7 ultrasmurfs armies at my FLGS, and only one of them is owned by a player old enough to drive.

Seems more like yours is the exception rather than the rule.

I know mine is an extreme example, but I have been to other GW and noticed similar (though less extreme) occurrences of this "10yr old magnet" effect the UM have.

Well my 10 y.o. hates them with a passion, he says they are up themselves, comes from the whole "Ultra" thing. LOL So he chose to do Salamanders
Tthe blue looks cool for sure but maybe they are a bit boring and mainstream because most things are shown in UM colours?

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

The Crusader wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote: His brothers? I think you misjudge them. They were all petty, arrogant, prideful dickbags (seems like it came with the territory of being a semi-divine superbeing)

Dick-bags?
So you're saying that the legions that fought at the siege of Terra AND WON are Dick-Bags, correct? I'd just like to make it clear that had those dick-bags not been prideful and tenacious and fallen back, then Horus and his entourage would've come gallavanting down to ultramar and shown you what a true ass-kicking is

No, I'm saying that all of the primarchs were petty and arrogant. As someone who is both arrogant, and a dick-bag, I can identify my own kind. I'm just not as petty as them. I mean, look at the lore. Half of the primarchs fell to Chaos, the majority of them over pride or other failings. Horus and Fulgrim for sure. Lorgar has enough emotional issues to fill a news-stand, but ultimately it was his pride and petty hatred of Guilliman that led him astray. The loyalists weren't much better. In Deliverance Lost, Corax feels like he might have been able to kill both Kurze, and Lorgar (whom Corax called "worthless" lol) at the same time.

I think, no wait, I know, that you're confused. I'm not writing this as an Ultramarines fan. Just a 40K fan objectively analyzing and identifying characters. So you can drop the "first person" speech. Nobody in 40K would have ever shown me what a true ass kicking is, because they're all imaginary. What I think I need to make clear is that you need to do closer readings before you respond.

I agree with most of this, I have read all of the HH books and I have to say that I think most of the Primarchs had major issues. Dorn has the nobility and honour and discipline that I like, but even he comes across as a bit of a douche, like when he goes ape gak at Garro and says hes going to kill him because he hears something he doesnt like?

It might be controversial to say it, but after reading them all so far I think following everyones favourite (Sanguinius) Gulliman is actually my favourite, maybe Corax as well, but Ive not read the newest two books yet.

He may be arrogant, but he understands duty and honour and nobility. I much prefer him to the macho BS types of the Lion, Perturabo, Russ, and well.. all of the chaos ones who pretty much seem to boil down to "Daddy doesnt love me enough"

Especially night haunter! He reminds me of my missus annoying goth brother.

enfernux wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Obviously have their parents buy it, nowhere in the world are normal children rich enough to buy a full 40k army without help.

i wont bother anyone with the details, but no, not even two parents can afford a single battle force for one child, so by the time you get to play wh40k, you are old enough to not be magneted in to fluffy gloryhounds collection.
the only time i saw a spacesmurf was at a local house tournament, and although he did a good job at painting it in a dull manner - can you do it otherwise?? - he brought a list that would devastate all GEQ...well except for my mech'dar that speedid the poo out of him. it realy wasnt his fault, but when i saw that gloryhound army, i almost had to talk to the organiser to let me play against it, as did everyone else

You think that two 40hr/week salaries are insufficient to purchase a single battleforce? lolwut?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

No, I'm saying that all of the primarchs were petty and arrogant. As someone who is both arrogant, and a dick-bag, I can identify my own kind. I'm just not as petty as them. I mean, look at the lore. Half of the primarchs fell to Chaos, the majority of them over pride or other failings. Horus and Fulgrim for sure. Lorgar has enough emotional issues to fill a news-stand, but ultimately it was his pride and petty hatred of Guilliman that led him astray. The loyalists weren't much better. In Deliverance Lost, Corax feels like he might have been able to kill both Kurze, and Lorgar (whom Corax called "worthless" lol) at the same time.

I think, no wait, I know, that you're confused. I'm not writing this as an Ultramarines fan. Just a 40K fan objectively analyzing and identifying characters. So you can drop the "first person" speech. Nobody in 40K would have ever shown me what a true ass kicking is, because they're all imaginary. What I think I need to make clear is that you need to do closer readings before you respond.

Fulgrim was possessed.

Lorgar turned because of his need to believe in a higher power.

Horus was lied to.

Dorn punched Garro because Garro accused his brother (see: BROTHER) of the more horrific crimes Dorn could have ever imagined. But Dorn showed more restraint than any other space marine or primarch ever would have because he pulled the punch and listened to the evidence.

That makes the bold part hilarious.

im2randomghgh wrote:

I know mine is an extreme example, but I have been to other GW and noticed similar (though less extreme) occurrences of this "10yr old magnet" effect the UM have.

Hmmm, interesting. From my experiences, I'd say that the prevalence of UM armies was more a geographical thing than an overall trend. The GW stores I've been to lacked any UM armies, bar one or two overall. Maybe they're more common in some areas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Fulgrim was possessed.

Lorgar turned because of his need to believe in a higher power.

Horus was lied to.

Dorn punched Garro because Garro accused his brother (see: BROTHER) of the more horrific crimes Dorn could have ever imagined. But Dorn showed more restraint than any other space marine or primarch ever would have because he pulled the punch and listened to the evidence.

That makes the bold part hilarious.

Although Peturabo was a chump, and I say that as a fan of the IW. Way to be paranoid there, Boss Iron Warrior.
Also, Kurze is quite clearly a psychopath; he's obsessed with crime and punishment, and sees order as something that only comes at the expense of a few lives.
Though there are obvious nods to Batman in his character (hello, Bat symbol) the two are completely unalike in methodology. Kurze is more like the lovechild of Bats and the Punisher.

im2randomghgh wrote:

No, I'm saying that all of the primarchs were petty and arrogant. As someone who is both arrogant, and a dick-bag, I can identify my own kind. I'm just not as petty as them. I mean, look at the lore. Half of the primarchs fell to Chaos, the majority of them over pride or other failings. Horus and Fulgrim for sure. Lorgar has enough emotional issues to fill a news-stand, but ultimately it was his pride and petty hatred of Guilliman that led him astray. The loyalists weren't much better. In Deliverance Lost, Corax feels like he might have been able to kill both Kurze, and Lorgar (whom Corax called "worthless" lol) at the same time.

I think, no wait, I know, that you're confused. I'm not writing this as an Ultramarines fan. Just a 40K fan objectively analyzing and identifying characters. So you can drop the "first person" speech. Nobody in 40K would have ever shown me what a true ass kicking is, because they're all imaginary. What I think I need to make clear is that you need to do closer readings before you respond.

Fulgrim was possessed.

Lorgar turned because of his need to believe in a higher power.

Horus was lied to.

Dorn punched Garro because Garro accused his brother (see: BROTHER) of the more horrific crimes Dorn could have ever imagined. But Dorn showed more restraint than any other space marine or primarch ever would have because he pulled the punch and listened to the evidence.
That makes the bold part hilarious.

Your post reminds me of that scene from Billy Madison after Adam Sandler gives an entirely nonsensical and irrelevant answer to a question. Fulgrim was possessed after he was corrupted. You seemed to have missed quite a bit about Lorgar while you were "reading", lol. That's only a small part of why he turned. Searching for higher powers only led him to find Chaos, it wasn't causal. Horus was lied to? Sure. That's all the Chaos Gods do is lie. Heck, they even admit it in Aurelian, and Lorgar still bought their story. Chaos lied to Horus and played on all of his insecurities. So, pretty much exactly what I said.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

No, I'm saying that all of the primarchs were petty and arrogant. As someone who is both arrogant, and a dick-bag, I can identify my own kind. I'm just not as petty as them. I mean, look at the lore. Half of the primarchs fell to Chaos, the majority of them over pride or other failings. Horus and Fulgrim for sure. Lorgar has enough emotional issues to fill a news-stand, but ultimately it was his pride and petty hatred of Guilliman that led him astray. The loyalists weren't much better. In Deliverance Lost, Corax feels like he might have been able to kill both Kurze, and Lorgar (whom Corax called "worthless" lol) at the same time.

I think, no wait, I know, that you're confused. I'm not writing this as an Ultramarines fan. Just a 40K fan objectively analyzing and identifying characters. So you can drop the "first person" speech. Nobody in 40K would have ever shown me what a true ass kicking is, because they're all imaginary. What I think I need to make clear is that you need to do closer readings before you respond.

Fulgrim was possessed.

Lorgar turned because of his need to believe in a higher power.

Horus was lied to.

Dorn punched Garro because Garro accused his brother (see: BROTHER) of the more horrific crimes Dorn could have ever imagined. But Dorn showed more restraint than any other space marine or primarch ever would have because he pulled the punch and listened to the evidence.
That makes the bold part hilarious.

Your post reminds me of that scene from Billy Madison after Adam Sandler gives an entirely nonsensical and irrelevant answer to a question. Fulgrim was possessed after he was corrupted. You seemed to have missed quite a bit about Lorgar while you were "reading", lol. That's only a small part of why he turned. Searching for higher powers only led him to find Chaos, it wasn't causal. Horus was lied to? Sure. That's all the Chaos Gods do is lie. Heck, they even admit it in Aurelian, and Lorgar still bought their story. Chaos lied to Horus and played on all of his insecurities. So, pretty much exactly what I said.

No, he wasn't. He was corrupted the second he acquired the Laer sword. He was possessed later, but he was never willfully fighting against the IoM. It went from him being influenced and not knowing he was influenced, to him basically being ejected from his body.

I missed nothing. Lorgar is a priest. That is his entire persona. He desperately needed gods to worship, and without the obvious choice of the Emperor, he chose a religion he was familiar with: the old religion of his home planet, which was chaos undivided.

Lying is not all the chaos gods do. They manipulate the truth, tell half-lies, and seduce. They rarely just present straight up bs like this to someone. Empty promises are their favourite tool, not bs.

So absolutely not what you said, at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Though there are obvious nods to Batman in his character (hello, Bat symbol) the two are completely unalike in methodology. Kurze is more like the lovechild of Bats and the Punisher.

That's exactly what I was thinking reading your post, and then I saw that at the bottom and I tripped out.

It's a good thing I read it to the end before replying or it would have been awkward.