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I am

DAaddict wrote:I am

Good. In that case, it's one of the better jokes I've seen.

anyone ever fealt something like: "it just is"???
I'm in this state in well...not hateing, but dislikeing spacesmurfs. But same goes for IG, ork and Nids. No real point, it just is.

I dislike BatltleSmurfs, mostly because well, lets see.
1) Fluff - No where near Terra when needed, they they come down on Imperal Fists, and Space Wolves (who I have no love for, after they attacked the 1000 Sons) about chapters.
2) The new Codex is more or less "Ultramarines" and the other guys. When most of the other guys have better stories and more to fun to paint or play or fight.
3) They are the John Cena of 40K

RicBlasko wrote:I dislike BatltleSmurfs, mostly because well, lets see.
1) Fluff - No where near Terra when needed, they they come down on Imperal Fists, and Space Wolves (who I have no love for, after they attacked the 1000 Sons) about chapters.

I would imagine getting to Terra would be difficult for anyone whilst the Word Bearers were in your home sector, trying their damndest to tear your home a new butthole.
Also, the Imperium as a whole came down on those two chapters. They were breaking Imperial Law by refusing the mandates of Terra. Deal with it.

RicBlasko wrote:
1) Fluff - No where near Terra when needed, they they come down on Imperal Fists, and Space Wolves (who I have no love for, after they attacked the 1000 Sons) about chapters.

As we have already clarified, they had no choice in the matter. The changes to the Legions into chapters were being mandated by the Imperium. Dorn and Russ were not resisting the orders of a brother, they were resisting the dicates of the Imperium.

RicBlasko wrote:I
2) The new Codex is more or less "Ultramarines" and the other guys. When most of the other guys have better stories and more to fun to paint or play or fight.

The Ultramarines a have always been the poster boys since Second Edition. That’s how it’s always been. Curiously the latest Codex actually has more information on other chapters than the previous codices. (Try finding information about the White Scars or Salamanders in the 3rd or 4th edition codices.)

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

RicBlasko wrote:I dislike BatltleSmurfs, mostly because well, lets see.
1) Fluff - No where near Terra when needed, they they come down on Imperal Fists, and Space Wolves (who I have no love for, after they attacked the 1000 Sons) about chapters.

I would imagine getting to Terra would be difficult for anyone whilst the Word Bearers were in your home sector, trying their damndest to tear your home a new butthole.
Also, the Imperium as a whole came down on those two chapters. They were breaking Imperial Law by refusing the mandates of Terra. Deal with it.

Well 10 years ago, there was no "and they were fighting off the Word Bearers" They were just else where and didnt make it in time to give a hand.
As for "getting over it" re-read the fluff. It was just not those two chapters, it was Russ, Kahn, Dorn, Vulcan. So it was almost half of the Legions that stayed loyal. And it was not a mandate from Terra, it was the madate of one Primach who wanted his way, and theaten to go to war if he didnt get it...and went as far as to have his fellow loyal Marines attacked in space. So BattleSmurf wanted his way, and threated to start another civil war...but a cheerleader for the Ultramarines would over look that.

RicBlasko wrote:
Well 10 years ago, there was no "and they were fighting off the Word Bearers" They were just else where and didnt make it in time to give a hand.

Actually that was the fluff about ten years ago when the Index Astartes articles were released. But even then it was the Ultramarines who simply did not get word until ti was too late.

RicBlasko wrote:
As for "getting over it" re-read the fluff. It was just not those two chapters, it was Russ, Kahn, Dorn, Vulcan.

Actually Khan was a Guilliman supporter, as noted in the Templar Codex and Vulkan has been retconned into a Guilliman supporter as well in Imperial Armour 10.

RicBlasko wrote:
And it was not a mandate from Terra, it was the madate of one Primach who wanted his way, and theaten to go to war if he didnt get it...and went as far as to have his fellow loyal Marines attacked in space. So BattleSmurf wanted his way, and threated to start another civil war...but a cheerleader for the Ultramarines would over look that.

It was a mandate from Terra. I have already posted quotes in this thread that explicitly state it was the High Lords who ordered it. Apparently you have not read that.

The High Lords tasked the Ultramarines Primarch Roboute Guilliman with the job of reordering the Imperial military forces.-Insignium Astartes

After the traitors of Horus and been defeated and banished the High Lords of Terra decreed that never again should so many Space Marines fall under the sway of one man, however noble his intent. Thus it was that Roboute embarked on the creation of the Space Marine Chapter. -Insignium Astartes

The newly created High Lords established the organisation of the Imperium that remains familiar to this day. The first High Lords laid down the structure by which the Adeptus Terra operates, and described the feudal responsibilities and duties of planetary lords. One of their most important accomplishments was the reorganisation of the Imperium’s armed forces. This task was undertaken almost singlehandedly by the Primarch of the Ultramarine Legion of Space Marines, Roboute Guilliman, who quickly and efficiently codified the structure of the Imperial Guard, the Fleet and the Space Marines. Of all his works the most influential is the Codex Astartes, the great prescriptive tome that lays down the basic organisational and tactical rules for Space Marines. The Horus Heresy had revealed weaknesses in the geneseed of several Space Marine Legions which had been exaggerated by the accelerated zygote harvesting techniques needed to keep the huge Space Marine Legions up to strength. The powers of Chaos exploited this growing physical and mental corruption to turn Horus’s troops against the Emperor. The prime objective of the new Codex Astartes was to recognise and expunge these weaknesses.-Codex: Space Marines

If you have a piece of fluff saying that Guilliman did this without the support of the High Lords, then please do cite it. Because I have several pieces of fluff pointing out otherwise.

RicBlasko wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

RicBlasko wrote:I dislike BatltleSmurfs, mostly because well, lets see.
1) Fluff - No where near Terra when needed, they they come down on Imperal Fists, and Space Wolves (who I have no love for, after they attacked the 1000 Sons) about chapters.

I would imagine getting to Terra would be difficult for anyone whilst the Word Bearers were in your home sector, trying their damndest to tear your home a new butthole.
Also, the Imperium as a whole came down on those two chapters. They were breaking Imperial Law by refusing the mandates of Terra. Deal with it.

Well 10 years ago, there was no "and they were fighting off the Word Bearers" They were just else where and didnt make it in time to give a hand.
As for "getting over it" re-read the fluff. It was just not those two chapters, it was Russ, Kahn, Dorn, Vulcan. So it was almost half of the Legions that stayed loyal. And it was not a mandate from Terra, it was the madate of one Primach who wanted his way, and theaten to go to war if he didnt get it...and went as far as to have his fellow loyal Marines attacked in space. So BattleSmurf wanted his way, and threated to start another civil war...but a cheerleader for the Ultramarines would over look that.

One thing here: how did Vulkan oppose the chapters if he had disappeared by the time the Heresy was over?

Cheerleader for the Ultramarines, lol.
If it ain't Iron Warriors, SW or Orks it ain't worth my time to play

Durza wrote:One thing here: how did Vulkan oppose the chapters if he had disappeared by the time the Heresy was over?

That’s complicated actually. We have a variety of contradictory sources on Vulkan’s fate. Some sources are claiming he disappeared at Istvaan while others are saying he was present Post-Heresy for the Codex Astartes. Right now I consider it to be a grey area.

It is quite amusing how those with incredibly weak arguments just automatically assume you're some die hard Ultramarines player and try to strawman your argument using that as a derogatory term.

The one thing that nobody ever takes into account is that the Primarch who gave up the largest amount of power by splitting the Legions was Guilliman himself. The Ultramarines represented more than 60% of the total Marines at that point. His sacrifice in splitting the Legions was greater than all the other primarchs put together. He was also a High Lord of Terra, and could have been the next Emperor if he wanted to be, but he stepped down from that too.

Just sayin'.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Ultramarines represented more than 60% of the total Marines at that point.

and to have that power, spacesmurf wasnt present, cut down, degraded, killed, massacered, chopped up, smashed in the battle for terra.

ok, they were somewhere else. So they didnt treat the bigest threat of the imperium greater then their own neads. In my eyes: HERETICS! I'm officially moveing my all out neutrality with spacemarines to hostile with smurfs...thanks for the path to enlightenment, my flamers, bolters and melta will be agressively aimed.

edit: he stepped down from being the next emperor because the original was still alive and killing the emperor would be...mmmmm....HERESY?! XD

enfernux wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Ultramarines represented more than 60% of the total Marines at that point.

and to have that power, spacesmurf wasnt present, cut down, degraded, killed, massacered, chopped up, smashed in the battle for terra.

ok, they were somewhere else. So they didnt treat the bigest threat of the imperium greater then their own neads. In my eyes: HERETICS! I'm officially moveing my all out neutrality with spacemarines to hostile with smurfs...thanks for the path to enlightenment, my flamers, bolters and melta will be agressively aimed.

They would not. As we have already explained several times, Know No Fear explains Warp storms as making warp travel very difficult in the Imperium. It was especially difficult for the Ultramarines as the warp storms were cast right at Calth by Erebus. In addition most of the Ultramarines fleet was shown to be destroyed at Calth. You can’t go anywhere if you don’t have a fleet.

This has already been explained.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:It is quite amusing how those with incredibly weak arguments just automatically assume you're some die hard Ultramarines player and try to strawman your argument using that as a derogatory term.

The one thing that nobody ever takes into account is that the Primarch who gave up the largest amount of power by splitting the Legions was Guilliman himself. The Ultramarines represented more than 60% of the total Marines at that point. His sacrifice in splitting the Legions was greater than all the other primarchs put together. He was also a High Lord of Terra, and could have been the next Emperor if he wanted to be, but he stepped down from that too.

There is no way Guilliman could have become the next Emperor without sparking a massive civil war. And in making the 'sacrifice' of splitting his legion, he not only ensured that the Ultramarines got the most chapters, but also ensured it would stay like that by doing it before any other legions got to rebuild their losses.

Durza wrote:There is no way Guilliman could have become the next Emperor without sparking a massive civil war. And in making the 'sacrifice' of splitting his legion, he not only ensured that the Ultramarines got the most chapters, but also ensured it would stay like that by doing it before any other legions got to rebuild their losses.

Ah, so in order to make everything fair Guilliman should have rounded up and executed half his Legion to ensure everybody got their fair share of chapters. What an unreasonable man.

(I am being sarcastic on the above.)

But the Second Founding happened right at the trail end of the Scouring. Guilliman didn’t do it right after the Heresy. It was at the end of the Scouring, that the Ultramarines just fought in.

I dislike the ultramarines because they are hypocrites. After everything the legions (including themselves) went through after the HH and creation of the codex astartes, thanks to Calgar and chaplain Cassius, they don't even follow their own primarch's doctrines.

I do appreciate that this meakes the Imperial Fists the most codex adherent chpater now though.

Project2501 wrote:I dislike the ultramarines because they are hypocrites. After everything the legions (including themselves) went through after the HH and creation of the codex astartes, thanks to Calgar and chaplain Cassius, they don't even follow their own primarch's doctrines.

I do appreciate that this meakes the Imperial Fists the most codex adherent chpater now though.

I’m not entirely sure your objection here. The combat doctrines of the Codex are not enforced and appear to be optional. The size limits where.

But as I pointed out earlier, the Tyrannic War Veterans have been started to be retconned so they are not a contradiction. In fact the latest FFG sourcebook has the Codex Astartes cited to support them. I would rather they be removed from fluff entirely, but now they are at least fixing it somewhat.

Gree wrote:

Project2501 wrote:I dislike the ultramarines because they are hypocrites. After everything the legions (including themselves) went through after the HH and creation of the codex astartes, thanks to Calgar and chaplain Cassius, they don't even follow their own primarch's doctrines.

I do appreciate that this meakes the Imperial Fists the most codex adherent chpater now though.

I’m not entirely sure your objection here. The combat doctrines of the Codex are not enforced and appear to be optional. The size limits where.

But as I pointed out earlier, the Tyrannic War Veterans have been started to be retconned so they are not a contradiction. In fact the latest FFG sourcebook has the Codex Astartes cited to support them. I would rather they be removed from fluff entirely, but now they are at least fixing it somewhat.

I do not understand your second sentence.

As to the retconning, to my knowledge (as wrong as it may be), FFG is neither GW nor a subsidiary, and therefore what they publish cannot be canon. If FFG is a subsidiary, then I relent my point.

Project2501 wrote:
I do not understand your second sentence.

They have retconned it. What is so hard to understand?

Or are you talking about the combat doctrines portion of the Codex? That part was not enforced. The part about ''breaking up the Legions'' was. I already adressed this earlier in the thread.

The main purpose of the Codex Astartes was to regulate Space Marines and explain their duties and privileges. Though it is more commonly known as the tome on organisational and tactical rules, that was not the reason it was created.

"The original Space Marine Legions were broken up into smaller Chapters and a code was drawn up to redefine their role and jurisdiction within the Imperium. This code was called the Codex Astartes." (5th C:SW, p. 9)

In the Codex Ultramarines and the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, the Codex Astartes is described in too much detail as to give a short quote, but it has several paragraphs explaining that two of the most important aspects of the Codex were the regulation of force sizes and the revised training doctrine for new recruits, and then in the final paragraph points out that the Codex also includes tactical roles, equipment specifications and uniform markings. The Codex is not only a guidbook on warfare, though that was probably Guilliman's pet project during the Crusade (well, not anymore, thanks to BL). The Codex defines the rules and laws Space Marines are subject to, and their place within the Imperium as one of the Adeptus' organisations.

A lot of people who only glance over the Black Templars background get the impression that Guilliman forced all the Legions and Chapters to organize into ten Companies of ten squads, just like his own Ultramarines. But then we have the Salamanders and the Space Wolves, who aren't organized that way, or the Iron Hands who do not have any reserve companies. A lot of players do not make a distinction between the combat doctrines part of the Codex, which was mainly guidelines and suggestions, and the legislation part of the Codex, which was mandatory for all Space Marines. As a result of this Guilliman is seen as pompous and arrogant for seemingly requiring all Space Marine forces to organize and fight according to his ideas, when it was mainly the legislation, which Guilliman had devised on behest of the High Lords and as a reaction to the events of the Heresy, which was mandated and decreed to all.

You give the impression that the combat doctrine portion was mandatory and that the Ultramarines expect other chapters to operate by it.

Project2501 wrote:
As to the retconning, to my knowledge (as wrong as it may be), FFG is neither GW nor a subsidiary, and therefore what they publish cannot be canon. If FFG is a subsidiary, then I relent my point.

It is canon.

http://www.boomtron.com/2011/03/grimdark-ii-loose-canon/

Note: An even more recent addition is Fantasy Flight Games, who produce the 40K roleplaying game, but even now, I’m not sure just where they stand. Like I said, this is a complicated hellhole of treachery, madness and deceit. As it stands, the official line is that there are three factions empowered to “create IP” (an exact quote), and that’s GW, BL and FW. Given that the 40K RPG is mostly made by folks working in or around the main three companies, I think it’s fair to say that its lore counts as canon, too.

This is the opinion of a Black Library author.

But in any case both the 4th Edition and 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, while both referring to the Tyrannic War Veterans as a breach from the tenets of the Codex, both also state at some point how the Ultramarines follow the Codex to the letter or how they are the paragon of all Codex Chapters over the Imperial Fists. So both Codices really included two contradicting elements, one of them traditional, one of them new. They cannot both be correct, so I guess it is up to the individual player whether he wants "progressive" Ultramarines with new invented special units or traditional fully Codex adherent Ultramarines.

I'm a 'Nilla Marines player - love the balance, the general ease of play and the sheer infinite ways to customize them into what you want them to look like. Great beginner army or an experienced player's force to be reckoned with.

Just hate back on the haters by beating the crap out of them!

Gree wrote:They have retconned it. What is so hard to understand?

Already addressed that, and will again.

Gree wrote:Or are you talking about the combat doctrines portion of the Codex? That part was not enforced. The part about ''breaking up the Legions'' was. I already adressed this earlier in the thread.

I was specifically referring to the breaking of codex astartes designated company orginization. Combat doctrines having been broken as well is simply 'icing on the cake'.

The reason the codex astartes was created is not under debate by me. The fact that it has since, like a great many other things in the Imperium, become a tome by which chapters are to go by and be measured against for compliance with and subsequently trustworthyness by the Imperium is the crux of my point.

I have no idea how you could have possibly inferred that I was referring to combat doctrines.

Gree wrote:It is canon.

Does FFG have a license to produce fiction for WH40k from GW? Outside of being GW or a subsidiary, that's the only way it can be canon and therefore retcon anything.

In the event that FFG does have licence from GW to produce fiction for WH40k, replete with GW logo and/or license number, the release dates of every bi of retconning would have to be verified to be after C:SM 5th edition at a minimum.

Gree wrote:But in any case both the 4th Edition and 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, while both referring to the Tyrannic War Veterans as a breach from the tenets of the Codex, both also state at some point how the Ultramarines follow the Codex to the letter or how they are the paragon of all Codex Chapters over the Imperial Fists. So both Codices really included two contradicting elements, one of them traditional, one of them new. They cannot both be correct, so I guess it is up to the individual player whether he wants "progressive" Ultramarines with new invented special units or traditional fully Codex adherent Ultramarines.

5th edition C:SM's canon trumps any/all canon that's been changed from 4th edition C:SM. 5th edition codex space marines refers "To the Tyrannic War Veterans as a breach from the tenets of the Codex." There is a breach. Read chaplain cassius's entry. The official view and knowledge of the rest of the imperium regarding the ultramarines is irrelevant. They have broken codex astartes orginizational structure. Therefore they are hypocrites.

Durza wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:It is quite amusing how those with incredibly weak arguments just automatically assume you're some die hard Ultramarines player and try to strawman your argument using that as a derogatory term.

The one thing that nobody ever takes into account is that the Primarch who gave up the largest amount of power by splitting the Legions was Guilliman himself. The Ultramarines represented more than 60% of the total Marines at that point. His sacrifice in splitting the Legions was greater than all the other primarchs put together. He was also a High Lord of Terra, and could have been the next Emperor if he wanted to be, but he stepped down from that too.

There is no way Guilliman could have become the next Emperor without sparking a massive civil war. And in making the 'sacrifice' of splitting his legion, he not only ensured that the Ultramarines got the most chapters, but also ensured it would stay like that by doing it before any other legions got to rebuild their losses.

He was already a High Lord of Terra. And there's really nothing that suggests it would have caused a civil war. Who would have opposed him? His brothers? I think you misjudge them. They were all petty, arrogant, prideful dickbags (seems like it came with the territory of being a semi-divine superbeing), but none of them would have opposed Guilliman in armed rebellion. I've got a really long, in depth analysis of this on B&C in a thread about Know No Fear ( http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=246417&st=100&start=100 ) if you feel like reading it. But Guilliman was the "heir to the empire". All of his brothers knew it, even the ones who hated him like Lorgar, or others who were simply jealous of him. Horus was the Warmaster, because he knew the politics game and the force of personality to command the other Legions. But Guilliman was his equal in nearly all else, and surpassed every one of his brothers when it came to administration, empire building, logistics, etc. He was the superior statesman and administrator all around. He was the only primarch with the vision that could even come remotely close to comparing to the Emperor's.

Some of his brothers probably wouldn't have liked it (I feel it's reasonable to assume they tried to convince him to give up his control on the High Lords, which he ultimately did), but if he'd taken over in his father's absence, they wouldn't have gone to war over it. After all, Guilliman was the only one who would have had the patience to do it anyway. Russ just wanted to kill things; he wasn't going to be running an empire. Dorn was off crusadisizing. Corax and Vulkan never seemed to have high minded aspirations. They probably would have secretly welcomed Guilliman taking the reigns because it would limit his ability to steal their glory as a war leader (he'd be too busy being Emperor), and they wouldn't have had to do it, and more importantly, wouldn't have had to deal with petty, short sighted humans running the show. I mean, look how bad the Imperium turned out in the absence of the Emperor...

Yeah, a lot of the way the Codex seems like it was handled benefits the Ultramarines, but your assumption that Guilliman timed it to make himself the most powerful is way off base and groundless. The Ultramarines were twice again larger than even the second largest legion before the Heresy, got mauled by the Word Bearers during the Calth Treachery, and still rebuilt themselves to again be roughly 2/3rds of the total Space Marines. At what point were the other Legions going to catch up? It's actually more reasonable to assume that by doing it when he did, Guilliman prevented the Ultramarines from being and even larger percentage of the total Space Marines. Their training and recruiting infrastructure was apparently light years ahead of the other Legions.

Project2501 wrote:
I was specifically referring to the breaking of codex astartes designated company orginization. Combat doctrines having been broken as well is simply 'icing on the cake'.

The Tyrannic War Veterans were described as a diverging from the Codex tennets, but not as a newly formed force. So it seems that they are still squads of the First Company. but with the new fluff the Codex is now cited as precedent for their formation and they no longer break the Codex.

Project2501 wrote:
Does FFG have a license to produce fiction for WH40k from GW? Outside of being GW or a subsidiary, that's the only way it can be canon and therefore retcon anything.

Of course they have a license. If they did not they would be sued for copyright infringement.

Project2501 wrote:
In the event that FFG does have licence from GW to produce fiction for WH40k, replete with GW logo and/or license number, the release dates of every bi of retconning would have to be verified to be after C:SM 5th edition at a minimum.

Deathwatch: First Founding was released only a few months ago, if that changes your opinion. That is the sourcebook I refer to.

Project2501 wrote:
5th edition C:SM's canon trumps any/all canon that's been changed from 4th edition C:SM. 5th edition codex space marines refers "To the Tyrannic War Veterans as a breach from the tenets of the Codex."

No it does not necessarily trump older fluff. Buty if you are taking newer fluff as canon then Deathwatch: First Founding does the opposite and cites the Codex as a precedent for the creation of the Tyranid Hunters.

Project2501 wrote:
There is a breach. Read chaplain cassius's entry. The official view and knowledge of the rest of the imperium regarding the ultramarines is irrelevant. They have broken codex astartes orginizational structure. Therefore they are hypocrites.

How are they hyopocrites when we have new fluff detailing the opposite?

While the Tyrannic War Veterans tutor others in their knowledge they seek to learn more of the Tyranids. It was the Codex Astartes that provided inspiration for had not Roboute Guilliman committed his wisdom and experience to its pages so that others might learn from his example?-p.69-Deathwatch: First Founding.

If it pleases you then such fluff effectively retcons what we had before.

I hate ALL marines!

=]

Brother SRM wrote:

Milisim wrote:Oblivious is right SM are truly the worlds most boring armies... The suits look dull, they are boring as hell to paint etc...

The difference between fast attack, elites, heavy support marines is the helmet is a different colour etc.... Whoopie doo.

Terminators are just FAT Marines nothing interesting at all....

Land raiders are just big rhinos and razorbacks are just rhinos with a gun on top etc.....

The whole SM breed is dull....

I might be biased though since I play only Xenos =]

Thanks, I'll go throw away my Crimson Fists company, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and Chaos Marines. Thanks for showing me the error of my ways!

So outside of opinions taken to awful heights in this thread, I'll get on topic. Ultramarines are "hated" because they're on the box art, and have been since the mid-late nineties. They're the most vanilla Space Marine chapter, and are seen as the posterboys, as so far as to literally be on the posters. There's this stigma that only noobs play them and paint their Marines that way, but precious few players actually paint their Marines as Ultramarines. It's an attractive scheme and can look wonderful in the hands of a good painter.

Seconded.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Durza wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:It is quite amusing how those with incredibly weak arguments just automatically assume you're some die hard Ultramarines player and try to strawman your argument using that as a derogatory term.

The one thing that nobody ever takes into account is that the Primarch who gave up the largest amount of power by splitting the Legions was Guilliman himself. The Ultramarines represented more than 60% of the total Marines at that point. His sacrifice in splitting the Legions was greater than all the other primarchs put together. He was also a High Lord of Terra, and could have been the next Emperor if he wanted to be, but he stepped down from that too.

There is no way Guilliman could have become the next Emperor without sparking a massive civil war. And in making the 'sacrifice' of splitting his legion, he not only ensured that the Ultramarines got the most chapters, but also ensured it would stay like that by doing it before any other legions got to rebuild their losses.

He was already a High Lord of Terra. And there's really nothing that suggests it would have caused a civil war. Who would have opposed him? His brothers? I think you misjudge them. They were all petty, arrogant, prideful dickbags (seems like it came with the territory of being a semi-divine superbeing)

Dick-bags?
So you're saying that the legions that fought at the siege of Terra AND WON are Dick-Bags, correct? I'd just like to make it clear that had those dick-bags not been prideful and tenacious and fallen back, then Horus and his entourage would've come gallavanting down to ultramar and shown you what a true ass-kicking is

Gree wrote: The Tyrannic War Veterans were described as a diverging from the Codex tennets, but not as a newly formed force. So it seems that they are still squads of the First Company. but with the new fluff the Codex is now cited as precedent for their formation and they no longer break the Codex.

so you are part of an organisation, but just because you are in a separate subforce of the organisation, you dont have to follow the rules, although you are still a part of the greater whole and not a separate organisation. Does that only sound stupid to me?

"I'm a part of the first company, but im fluff, so i dont have to follow codex astartes..." - dont increase my bulets size for spacesmurfs

The Crusader wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Durza wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:It is quite amusing how those with incredibly weak arguments just automatically assume you're some die hard Ultramarines player and try to strawman your argument using that as a derogatory term.

The one thing that nobody ever takes into account is that the Primarch who gave up the largest amount of power by splitting the Legions was Guilliman himself. The Ultramarines represented more than 60% of the total Marines at that point. His sacrifice in splitting the Legions was greater than all the other primarchs put together. He was also a High Lord of Terra, and could have been the next Emperor if he wanted to be, but he stepped down from that too.

There is no way Guilliman could have become the next Emperor without sparking a massive civil war. And in making the 'sacrifice' of splitting his legion, he not only ensured that the Ultramarines got the most chapters, but also ensured it would stay like that by doing it before any other legions got to rebuild their losses.

He was already a High Lord of Terra. And there's really nothing that suggests it would have caused a civil war. Who would have opposed him? His brothers? I think you misjudge them. They were all petty, arrogant, prideful dickbags (seems like it came with the territory of being a semi-divine superbeing)

Dick-bags?
So you're saying that the legions that fought at the siege of Terra AND WON are Dick-Bags, correct? I'd just like to make it clear that had those dick-bags not been prideful and tenacious and fallen back, then Horus and his entourage would've come gallavanting down to ultramar and shown you what a true ass-kicking is

Technically, the legions on Terra would have lost if not for an insane gambit by the Emperor. Their tenacity had little to do with it.

The Crusader wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Durza wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:It is quite amusing how those with incredibly weak arguments just automatically assume you're some die hard Ultramarines player and try to strawman your argument using that as a derogatory term.

The one thing that nobody ever takes into account is that the Primarch who gave up the largest amount of power by splitting the Legions was Guilliman himself. The Ultramarines represented more than 60% of the total Marines at that point. His sacrifice in splitting the Legions was greater than all the other primarchs put together. He was also a High Lord of Terra, and could have been the next Emperor if he wanted to be, but he stepped down from that too.

There is no way Guilliman could have become the next Emperor without sparking a massive civil war. And in making the 'sacrifice' of splitting his legion, he not only ensured that the Ultramarines got the most chapters, but also ensured it would stay like that by doing it before any other legions got to rebuild their losses.

He was already a High Lord of Terra. And there's really nothing that suggests it would have caused a civil war. Who would have opposed him? His brothers? I think you misjudge them. They were all petty, arrogant, prideful dickbags (seems like it came with the territory of being a semi-divine superbeing)

Dick-bags?
So you're saying that the legions that fought at the siege of Terra AND WON are Dick-Bags, correct? I'd just like to make it clear that had those dick-bags not been prideful and tenacious and fallen back, then Horus and his entourage would've come gallavanting down to ultramar and shown you what a true ass-kicking is

Well, I don't know about the others, but I do know that Rogal Dorn's wounded pride damn near got his legion killed in the Iron Cage incident. Just sayin'.