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Veteran Sergeant wrote:You can dislike the Ultramarines for whatever reason you feel like justifies your irrationality, lol.

Patronizing people is a dirty tactic. As you've said in other threads, this is just about pieces of plastic. No need for hostility.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Too upbeat, not grimdark enough? Obviously you were confusing them with the Space Wolves and their jolly viking theme.

Ever read "A Thousand Sons"? The Space Wolves massacre civilians and destroy a planet of intellectuals.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The back story of Ultramar contains a planet with a dying sun, one eaten completely by Tyranids, etc. I mean, it doesn't get too much more grimdark than a perfect society being slowly eaten away.

In the fluff, it's not portrayed as being eaten away though. It's be portrayed as enduring.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Have you read any of the Horus Heresy novels yet? Guess what that's describing? The fall of an advanced and glorious society.

I presume you're referring to the latest one about the Word Bearers fighting the Ultramarines. Unfortunately I, like the majority of HH fans, have yet to get it but hope to soon. And if you're right, and it portrays the fall of the society, well then I'll say that the fluff's been fixed like I've been hoping for it to.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Grimdark doesn't mean everything has to suck, all the time.

Of course not. But grimdark settings aren't supposed to have upbeat utopias. And if "Know No Fear" fixed that, well then that's good.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:There are lots of "pleasure planets" and "nice" places all throughout the Imperium, and they are discussed in the lore all the time. Singling out Ultramar is simply confirmation bias.

Give some examples please.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Bad writing? Most of the people who hate the Ultramarines love bad writing, and are quick to cite Graham McNeill's books, which are the worst Ultramarines writing ever done.

I agree, those books are bad writing.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:I explained the reality of the 5th Edition Codex wording. You can refuse to accept the truth, but we're back to irrationality.

These are pieces of overpriced plastic. No need to patronize me.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The bottom line is, when compared to the overblown superman-like Special Characters of other codex books, the Ultramarines are on par and certainly not comparatively overdone, and the "spiritual liege" line makes perfect sense when you understand what it refers to. Any other belief is bias talking, not rationality.

You keep saying that anyone who dislikes Ultramarines is being irrational. You only need to say it once. Also, I never said the other fluff was perfect. In fact, Ultramarines are just one example of how the Space Marines are being built up as super heroic and ungrimdark, which doesn't mesh with 40k. People just single them out because they're one of the best examples of it.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:It's definitely straight jealousy. Most complaints are about the Ultramarines being described as "the greatest of all Space Marine Chapters". If you dislike that piece of established canon, then it is because you disagree with that statement. However, disagreement with that statement is impossible to support with evidence, since you will always be trumped by the fact that the Ultramarines are "The greatest of Space Marine Chapters".

Holy gak, you didn't read my post. Okay, I'm sorry for patronizing you, that comment was rude. But, I explained why it isn't jealousy. Reread my post. People dislike Ultramarines because they DONT MESH WITH THE FLUFF. I'm not jealous of a piece of plastic. Just reread my other post and you'll understand my arguement.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Thus, any belief to the contrary is... you guess it, irrational. And why would they want to disagree with that statement? Because they feel that the honor of "greatest of the Space Marine Chapters: should go to another Chapter, obviously one that they prefer. I mean, we can play semantics and give it a name other than jealousy, but we're just masking the greater truth.

Reread my post. Disliked the background does not equal jealousy. I don't even play Space Marines, so why would I be jealous that the Ultramarines are better than my nonexistent Chapter? Of course they're better. For starters, my Chapter has no Marines, compared to their 1,000.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:There's no logical way to hate the Ultramarines. There just isn't. They are everything that is awesome about Space Marines, so by default they are pretty cool. They may not be as individually exciting as other chapters to some people (I addressed the classic idea of them as "vanilla" or "boring"). But being bland really isn't a reason to hate them.

I agree. Space Marines are not bland, therefore the Ultramarines, who are straightforward Space Marines, are not bland.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Like every Chapter described in-depth by GW, they've had their ups and downs, wins and losses. The argument that they are described as "too good" or "too perfect" is just categorically untrue.

It seems like they've had way too many wins though. And they have a utopian society. And fair and just leaders. And one victory after another. So, your argument is categorically untrue. Bam.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:If anything, thanks to Graham McNeill, they've been crapped on more than any other chapter, lol. No other chapter has been repeatedly called stupid in their own series of novels.

I never finished reading the first one because, as your said, they're bad writing. I actually didn't get far at all, because I dropped it pretty quickly in favor of Ciaphis Cain. However, from the Lexicanum synopsis of the books, the Ultramarines win. They beat M'kar/the Necrons/Tyranids/whatever bothered them and then go back to sipping tea in the Fortress of Hera.

Im not really sure why you want to paint those who don't care for them in such a negative light. I don't really care for most chapters outside of dark angels and grey knights. That has little to do with fluff or anything negative towards them. It's just a preference. I have always like the gk due to looks, all psykers, them vs chaos since the idea of heaven vs hell is interesting to me. I'd rather read about alric then ventriss. The Dark Angels appeal has to do with their rules set and colors.

Maybe not dislike but an indifference towards them and it has nothing to do with jealousy, writing or any of the mentioned reasons you named. Though I can say the current fluff alone not withstanding the fluff you all have pulled from several editions the current incarnation seems kinda bland.

Every marines book says theyre all awesome but nothing unique sets the smurfs apart from the other "awesome" marines but the codex which isnt even well defined and you had to pull almost a dozen sources together bit by bit to make them even sound different or not fulfill their horrid ward stereotype.

Oh and the gk had a pretty horrid showing in their omnibus as well so no pity parties for the smurfs. lol

LoneLictor wrote:I never finished reading the first one because, as your said, they're bad writing. I actually didn't get far at all, because I dropped it pretty quickly in favor of Ciaphis Cain. However, from the Lexicanum synopsis of the books, the Ultramarines win. They beat M'kar/the Necrons/Tyranids/whatever bothered them and then go back to sipping tea in the Fortress of Hera.

I'm sorry if you feel patronized. It isn't the intention. If you don't realize your reasoning isn't reasonable, then you'll continue on the same path. Though you do seem to have trouble discerning between which comments are directed at your specific complaints and what comments are addressing more general complaints by others against the Ultramarines. Either way, deconstructing your (and others') argument and analyzing its inherent flaws isn't being patronizing. It's simply how discussion works. Otherwise it isn't an exchange of ideas, simply repeated statements of belief. Your argument doesn't hold up to scrutiny in most places and I'm cataloging it for you. We can hand-wave it with you saying "Well that's how I feel" and be done with it, but you haven't said anything that was convincing to me in a persuasive argument. Not saying that to be mean, just stating fact. I've got no emotional investment here. If the thesis of my argument is "Disliking the Ultramarines isn't reasonable" and the counter argument contains nothing that disproves that statement...

As far as whether or not the Ultramarines "win" in all of those McNeill stories is somewhat irrelevant. They are Space Marines. And they definitely wouldn't be the "greatest of all Space Marine Chapters" if they lost more than they won (well, I guess they could be, but then the rest of the Space Marines would have to be pants on head 'tarded and incompetent, lo). However, what I meant by them being called stupid is that repeatedly in those stories the Ultramarines say and do the dumbest things possible. Fight wars like the Codex Astartes is a simplistic "If A, Then B" Picturebook on Fightin'. Get angry at commanders for using heretical things like initiative and improvisation. They fight wars like an idiot would fight wars in those novels. In no other novels are the protagonists cast in so poorly of a light. Having character flaws or weaknesses to create three-dimensional characters and compelling stories is one thing. The Ultramarines Chapter of McNeill's novels has no strengths, haha. It's like the movie Swingers with Vince Vaughn and Jon Favreau. Favreau's character is so repeatedly stupid that it's nearly impossible to root for him. In fact, you're almost pissed off at the end when he gets the girl (peak years Heather Graham at that) because he's done nothing to deserve him. I won't lie, I haven't read most of McNeill's books either, only bits and pieces. It was hard enough trying to get through the first one, and if that was the only exposure to the Ultramarines I'd ever had, I'd probably think they were stupid and hate them too. And to address the Space Wolves, for every grimdark thing they do, they get in ten drunken brawls, laugh gregariously, and grow wild hair and silly beards that would interfere with the ability for them to enviroseal their armor. Definitely the least grimdark of the Space Marine chapters by so large of a margin it isn't funny. They make the Ultramarines look like

Maybe not dislike but an indifference towards them

I'm indifferent towards most of the different Chapters/Craft Worlds/Hive Fleets/Waaaaghs. If you just "don't care" about the Ultramarines, this thread isn't really referring to you then. Though you're obviously confused if you think I'm trying to play up the Ultramarines (though I fail to see how the number of sources provided hinders an argument). I don't see any reason that people have to like the Ultramarines. There's just no legitimate reason to dislike them. I find the Ultramarines intriguing because my tastes stray away from the less serious depictions of Space Marines (Space Wolves, Blood Angels, etc) and the Ultramarines fit into the more simple and militaristic "Big Guys with Big Guns in Big Armor" (BGBGBA) niche that I think they should. But I'd be and am equally a fan of other Chapters depicted as more "serious business". If this thread was called "Why does nobody care about the Ultramarines" then my response would be pretty simple.

It seems to me like you're being the unreasonable you. If you can't acknowledge that having a utopian and fair and just society does not mesh with the Imperium in the slightest, then its impossible for this debate to achieve anything. And actually, A Thousand Sons makes the jolly Space Wolves look grimdark. They're like if you took angry people at taverns and gave them god like power; all they do is get into fights and kill innocents, with seemingly no regard for human life. Its a really good book actually, I would suggest you read it. And I'll try to get "Know No Fear."

Gree wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:I never said they took no casualties, but the conflict had been going on for a quite a while and they knew Horus' goal was Terra.

You said multiple Legions were hit hard, except for the Ultramarines. Two thirds losses is what I would call hit hard.

But what the Ultramairneas knew of Horus’s plans were debatable. The fact that Guilliman literally had most of his fleet annihilated in drydock by the Word Bearers would have factored into that.

Yes I can let the fact that his fleet was hit factor into it. Just that if he had had at least a squad or several already there then at least they would have had a showing. When I say got hit hard I mean like the salamanders or the imp fists.

Gree wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:
First off everything I have read said Guilliman.

I just posted a quote directly a few pages back noting the High Lords decree.

Akroma06 wrote:
Codecies are considered canon and I know my BT and my C:SM say Guilliman.

He did it, but it was decreed by the High Lords
.
The newly created High Lords established the organisation of the Imperium that remains familiar to this day. The first High Lords laid down the structure by which the Adeptus Terra operates, and described the feudal responsibilities and duties of planetary lords. One of their most important accomplishments was the reorganisation of the Imperium’s armed forces. This task was undertaken almost singlehandedly by the Primarch of the Ultramarine Legion of Space Marines, Roboute Guilliman, who quickly and efficiently codified the structure of the Imperial Guard, the Fleet and the Space Marines. Of all his works the most influential is the Codex Astartes, the great prescriptive tome that lays down the basic organisational and tactical rules for Space Marines. The Horus Heresy had revealed weaknesses in the geneseed of several Space Marine Legions which had been exaggerated by the accelerated zygote harvesting techniques needed to keep the huge Space Marine Legions up to strength. The powers of Chaos exploited this growing physical and mental corruption to turn Horus’s troops against the Emperor. The prime objective of the new Codex Astartes was to recognise and expunge these weaknesses.-Codex Space Marines.

Guilliman undertook the task but it was decreed by the High Lords.

Ok C:BT pg 6. "With the threat of extinction lifted for the immediate future, Roboute Guilliman, Primarch of the Ultramarines Legion, devised a military orginsation that would spread the power of the Legiones Astartes, Imperial Navy and the Imperial Army across the galaxy, so no longer would one individual wield the power of a legion again. For the Space Marines these RULES (yes I added that) were laid down in the Codex Astartes, a mighty tome that also dealt with unit organisation, markings, tactical doctrine and all other aspects of the Space Marines' structure."

Guilliman wrote the rules. The high lords of Terra may have dictated it but it was his ideas that were put into the Codex and made RULES.

Gree wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:
Even if it is the High Lords that is not what the emperor said.

The Emperor put a bunch of normal humans in charge of the Imperium. Horus even laments at one point in the books that he is being given orders by them. Then those normal humans decided to make changes with the Emperor’s authority.

If anybody has any claim to rule the Imperium it’s going to be the High Lords.

No fair enough. My point is that the Emperor set up how he wanted the marines. Legions not Chapters.

Gree wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:
Now as for the Primarchs it was an even split as I recall.

The original fluff was Guilliman, Khan and Corax on one side, and Russ, Dorn and Vulkan on another. But now according to Imperial Armour 10 retcons Vulkan into being astrong supporter of Guilliman.

So as of the most recent fluff, Guilliman, Khan, Corax and Vulkan stood on one side and Dorn and Russ on the other.

So we can chalk this up to conflicting fluff. Most recent doesn't really apply when other things are consider canon still as well.

Gree wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:
I have read it in my BT codex (get you a page number later) and I'm looking at it in the Lexicanum right now.

Lexicanum is not really a reliable source. I’ve seen thins paraphrased or misinterpreted on there before. Use the actual sources please.

I was using it in addition to the codex. I wrote it above.

Gree wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:
It can be, but my point is it is not one world. Which reminds me that the ultramarines and their successors are to fall back to McCragge should the imperium's situation become more dire.

I imagine every chapter would logically fall to their homeworld if things got dire.

Actually that is an Ultramarine and their successors thing. The other Chapters fall back to terra. I'll have to go look it up too.

Gree wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:
Hey I don't write the fluff, I just read it. I was still talking about having more than one planet.

Where is it noted that Chapters are restricted to one planet? I can name at least two Chapters (The Raven Guard and Executioners) have two planets and nobody raises a fuss.

Again from C:BT pg 6 continuing about the Codex Astartes from above. "Each would take for itself a homeworld, fortress-monastery or fleet and stand ready to defen the Imperium from all threats." So basically the Imp fists and successors did this part. Homeworld - Imp Fists. Fortress-monastery - Crimson Fists, and Fleet - BT (probably the only thing they have in common with the Codex. Now note that it says "A" homeworld. 'A' means 1.

Gree wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:
We will fire at you then. If it was supposed to be a guide why was it enforced at gunpoint? We don't want your guidlines, but we continue to serve the emperor.

As I already explained, the size limits was enforced, not the tactics or organization part. The entire issue addressed in the fluff was Dorn and Russ having an issue with the breaking of the Legions. There is no conflict recorded as Dorn having with the combat tactics part.

A lot of people who only glance over the Black Templars background get the impression that Guilliman forced all the Legions and Chapters to organize into ten Companies of ten squads, just like his own Ultramarines.

Again as quoted above "delt with unit organisation, markings, tactical doctrines and all other aspects of the Space Marines' structure. That sounds like the codex does everything. That isn't just me glancing over the fluff or getting an impression that is word for word on Page 6 bottom left hand paragraph from the C:BT.

Gree wrote:
But then we have the Salamanders and the Space Wolves, who aren't organised that way, or the Iron Hands who do not have any reserve companies. A lot of players do not make a distinction between the combat doctrines part of the Codex, which was mainy guidelines and suggestions, and the legislation part of the Codex, which was mandatory for all Space Marines. As a result of this Guilliman is seen as pompous and arrogant for seemingly requiring all Space Marine forces to organise and fight according to his idears, when it was mainly the legislation, which Guilliman had devised on behest of the High Lords and as a reaction to the events of the Heresy, which was mandated and decreed to all.

In the Codex Ultramarines and the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, the Codex Astartes is described in too much detail as to give a short quote, but it has several paragraphs explaining that two of the most important aspects of the Codex were the regulation of force sizes and the revised training doctrine for new recruits, and then in the final paragraph points out that the Codex also includes tactical roles, equipment specifications and uniform markings. The Codex is not only a guidbook on warfare, though that was probably Guilliman's pet project during the Crusade. The Codex defines the rules and laws Space Marines are subject to, and their place within the Imperium as one of the Adeptus' organisations.

Essentially: Guilliman works throughout the Great Crusade to compile a massive treatise on warfare, in which he includes a lot of contributions by his brothers. After the Heresy, Guilliman becomes one of the High Lords of Terra, and is tasked with reforming the Imperial military and codifying the future legislation for Space Marines. He combines both of these elements into the "Codex Astartes", which deals with all aspects concerning Space Marines, and presents this to his brothers as the future of the Space Marines. This Codex includes the mandates for Space Marines, and the reforms which the Legions (as well as all the other Imperial armed forces) all have to abide by. And it also includes the massive guidebook on warfare which Guilliman had been working on all his life. The legislation part is mandatory for all Space Marines, and is decreed by the High Lords. The guide is not mandatory, and would be impossible to police and to enforce, and not all First and Second Founding Chapters fully adhere to it.

Rogal Dorn had a problem with the mandate to limit the number of Space Marines one single individual was allowed to command. This had been one of the decrees by the High Lords which had been a result of the Heresy, and therefor Dorn was not permitted to disregard it.

Just really want to focus on that part right there. I don't remember that but it would explain a lot. Why some sources say he wrote/enforced it and others say the high lords did it.

Now this clearly says the codex are the RULES that all are supposed to follow. Clearly today not everyone follows every law. Ever spead in a car? What would be the point of calling them rules if they are not mandatory?

Gree wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:
Dorn was attacked! Repedatively. His fleet would enter orbit and they would open fire on him! It was only to keep the imperium united that he relented. He cared more about the Imperium and what the emperor did than his own pride.

He was fired at once by an Imperial Navy ship because he was rebelling against a superior authority. He did not rule the Imperium, the High Lords did.

He refused to split his legion! Just because Guilliman said to. In fact the only reason he did relent was to save the imperium. Which is much more than what the high lords or Guilliman did. They pushed the imperium to the brink of total war again, because 2-3 legions refused the mandates of someone who did not defend Terra.

Akroma06 wrote:because 2-3 legions refused the mandates of someone who did not defend Terra.

Not really fair to add "who did not defend terra"- okay, he didn't, but you make it sound voluntary- we already established that he couldn't.

Akroma06 wrote:
Yes I can let the fact that his fleet was hit factor into it. Just that if he had had at least a squad or several already there then at least they would have had a showing.

Are you going to blame the Dark Angels or Space Wolves then?

Akroma06 wrote:
When I say got hit hard I mean like the salamanders or the imp fists.

It’s entirely possible the Fists got hit less hard than the Ultramarines we don’t know how many they lost.

Akroma06 wrote:
Ok C:BT pg 6. "With the threat of extinction lifted for the immediate future, Roboute Guilliman, Primarch of the Ultramarines Legion, devised a military orginsation that would spread the power of the Legiones Astartes, Imperial Navy and the Imperial Army across the galaxy, so no longer would one individual wield the power of a legion again. For the Space Marines these RULES (yes I added that) were laid down in the Codex Astartes, a mighty tome that also dealt with unit organisation, markings, tactical doctrine and all other aspects of the Space Marines' structure."

Guilliman wrote the rules. The high lords of Terra may have dictated it but it was his ideas that were put into the Codex and made RULES.

Yes, but with the High Lord’s authority. I.e with the Emperor’s authority. But as I pointed out, only some aspects of the Codex are decrees. The fact that the Wolves, the Iron Hands and the White Scars all retain non-Codex elements are proof of that.

I hope you are not too offended if I inform you that an individual Astartes Legion was only a pretty small part of the Imperial armed forces and of the relevant institutions of the Imperium as a whole.

If the description in the Codex Imperialis (p. 14) is anything to go by, then among the High Lords were the highest ranking members of the following Insititutions (so the people who were "ok" with the new order): The Administratum, the Inquisition, the Ecclesiarchy, the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Adeptus Arbites, the Navigators, the Master of the Astronomican, the Officio Assassinorum, and the Adeptus Astra Telepathica. The new order was pretty much accepted unanimous by all of the important institutions and offices of the Imperium. A single Space Marine Legion is a vanishingly minor element compared to all of those organisations. It was like a 95% agreement, and a minor 5% disagreement. That does not carry any weight. A Space Marine Legion is a powerfull asset, yes, but several of those institutions are absolutely vital for an operating Imperium, which a Space Marine Legion isn't. Dorn had no leverage at all. He was not cheated out of his right or anything. He was insignificant.

Edit: I guess you could say that it is instead quite arrogant to assume that a single Primarch would have had any say in the matter. The Emperor had created them as his generals, not as the leaders of the Imperium.

Akroma06 wrote:
No fair enough. My point is that the Emperor set up how he wanted the marines. Legions not Chapters.

He created Marines to conquer the galaxy, but he also created normal humans to rule it, and gave them authority over the Marines. In other terms he gave them power to do whatever they wanted with the Marines.

Akroma06 wrote:
So we can chalk this up to conflicting fluff. Most recent doesn't really apply when other things are consider canon still as well.

As of the most recent fluff, most Primarchs support Guilliman. But that does not matter since the High Lords are decreeing it anyway.

Akroma06 wrote:
Actually that is an Ultramarine and their successors thing. The other Chapters fall back to terra. I'll have to go look it up too.

And why would every other chapters fall back to Terra? You realize that we have a thousand different chapters with hundreds of different homeworlds and crusade fleets right? It is nigh impossible for everybody to converge on one place with any kind of coordination.

Akroma06 wrote:
Again from C:BT pg 6 continuing about the Codex Astartes from above. "Each would take for itself a homeworld, fortress-monastery or fleet and stand ready to defen the Imperium from all threats." So basically the Imp fists and successors did this part. Homeworld - Imp Fists. Fortress-monastery - Crimson Fists, and Fleet - BT (probably the only thing they have in common with the Codex. Now note that it says "A" homeworld. 'A' means 1.

It simply means they should take a homeworld. Not that they are restricted to having only one.

Akroma06 wrote:
Again as quoted above "delt with unit organisation, markings, tactical doctrines and all other aspects of the Space Marines' structure. That sounds like the codex does everything. That isn't just me glancing over the fluff or getting an impression that is word for word on Page 6 bottom left hand paragraph from the C:BT.

It deals with it, but it is not mandatory anyway.

The Codex Astartes further defines the tactical roles, equipment specifications and uniform identification markings of the Space Marines. These guidelines have evolved over the centuries, and the Codex Astartes of the forty first millennium is a highly developed treatise combining the wisdom of hundreds of military thinkers throughout history. Some of its contents seem petty and restrictive, hardly worthy of the great mind of the Primarch. Others describe actual battles together with comments on the tactics employed and the decisions of the commanders of the day. As such the Codex Astartes is revered as a holy text, and many Chapters regard its recommendations as sanctified by the Emperor himself.5th Edition Space Mairne Codex pg.9

Please note ‘’Guidelines’’ and ‘’recommendations’’

Akroma06 wrote:
Now this clearly says the codex are the RULES that all are supposed to follow. Clearly today not everyone follows every law. Ever spead in a car? What would be the point of calling them rules if they are not mandatory?

As I’ve already explained twice now, only the size limits portion of the Codex appear to be mandatory. And that was done at the Second Founding and the main problem Dorn had. We have absolutely no evidence that suggests that Dorn was forced to accept Guilliman tactics and organization, rather the opposite really.

I have already posted the relevant quotes right from the Mairne Codex. They explain several decrees of the Codex, then they also add the tactical guidelines and suggestions as noted in the quote itself.

Akroma06 wrote:
He refused to split his legion! Just because Guilliman said to.

Because the High Lords said so.

After the traitors of Horus and been defeated and banished the High Lords of Terra decreed that never again should so many Space Marines fall under the sway of one man, however noble his intent. Thus it was that Roboute embarked on the creation of the Space Marine Chapter. -Insignium Astartes

Dorn and co. were not against the decentralisation in general. All the forces were decentralised at that point. Army, Fleet and Astartes were separated from one another, for example. That did not concern Dorn. He was specifically unwilling to give up his own Legion.

"Rogal Dorn, Primarch of the Imperial Fists, responsible for the defence of Terra itself, refused to have his Legion broken down into much smaller Chapters, stating that it was his sacred duty to protect the Emperor and he could not afford to split his forces across the Imperium. (...) Leman Russ of the Space Wolves and Vulkan of the Salamanders agreed with Dorn for they too did not want their Legions scattered to the corners of the galaxy (...)"Index Astartes Black Templars.

They all merely did not want to have their own Legions taken away from them, be it because of the loss of power or because of their brotherhood. They were not concerned because they thought it was the wrong strategy for the future of the Imperium. It was a personal issue. Meanwhile Guilliman himself was giving up more power than every one of his Brothers, as the Ultramarines had allways been the largest Legtion. Some of his Brothers were not prepared to do the same. Initially, at least. The Index Astartes Imperial Fists describes that Dorn himself finally got to the realisation that it was the right thing to do, and that the old times were over and the Imperial Fists now had to serve the Emperor in a different capacity.

"The Imperial Fist Chaplains teach that Dorn found strength in meditation. For seven days he resisted the pain glove until at last he was gifted with a vision of the Emperor. The Imperial Fists had wavered in their faith, thinking the Emperor gone, but they knew that he was still watching them from the Golden Throne. The Imperial Fists could no longer serve the Emperor that had been but they knew they must still be true to the Emperor that was. Rogal Dorn decreed that the Imperial Fists would symbolically enter the pain glove as a Legion and emerge redeemed as a Chapter.
[Cue Iron Cage incident]
Cleansed by their sacrifice, the Imperial Fists immediately began their reorganisation. For the next two decades they went into retreat, their successor Chapters taking to the field in their stead. Dorn used this time to retrain the Chapter to embrace all aspects of the Codex Astartes. (...)
The willingness of Dorn to put his initial misgivings aside and embrace the Codex Astartes reassured the High Lords of Terra. Because they were not tied to a home world and had a mobile Chapter Fortress, the Imperial Fists could be more responsive to calls for help. In particular, Rogal Dorn was more amenable ro requests from other institutions for assistance than other Primarchs, and this built a valuable store of goodwill. When the Age of Apostasy engulfed the Imperium none of the protagonists were willing to risk their good relations with the Chapter, which continued to conduct a campaign against the Ebon League unaffected. Often the Imperial Fists were able to unify the rival factions to face a local threat which would have otherwise found them divided and vulnerable."Index Astartes Imperial Fists.

It seems like Dorn had wholeheartedly embraced the Codex Astartes in the end, and the Imperial Fists were building up quite an outstanding reputation for themselves in the years following the Scouring.

Akroma06 wrote:
Which is much more than what the high lords or Guilliman did. They pushed the imperium to the brink of total war again, because 2-3 legions refused the mandates of someone who did not defend Terra.

No, because someone was refusing the dictates of the High Lords and the rest of the Imperium. If you have any sources showing that Dorn ruled the Imperium and not the High Lords, then please do cite them. Because I have provided sources showing the Emperor’s intention for normal humans to rules the Imperium and those same normal humans becoming the High Lords.Dorn was refusing to abide by Imperial decree. Technically Guilliman was right. Dorn, on the other hand, had started the argument by calling Guilliman a coward for not being at the Battle for Terra. That, in turn, was not factually accurate.

This is not a brother rebelling against another brother. This is Dorn rebelling against the Imperium and it’s rulers. And finally, Dorn relenting because it would have led to conflict was only given in the Index Astartes of the Black Templars as an explanation for why he finally agreed to divide his Legion. In the Index Astartes of the Imperial Fists it is explained that it was a vision of the Emperor that made him accept that the times were changing and that he had to adapt.

But using the ‘’did not defend Terra excuse’’ is a poor one, as I’ve already quotes a couple of pages earlier of Guilliman sending his Legion to pretty much hold the Imperium almost singlehandedly in the aftermath of the Heresy, something you have seemed to ignore.

I play Ultramarines. In fact they were my first army that I painted. But then again, when I started, it was more than 15 years ago and second edition, and there was no such thing as the Ultramarines being a "newbie army". Black Templars and Salamanders were just black/white and green/black versions of Ultramarines, and used the exact same rules, minus some special characters.

I have nothing against ultramarines, I just hate their paint job when people use ultramarine blue. It just looks like a smurf and I can't take them seriously. Crimson Fists all the way

Albeezie wrote:I have nothing against ultramarines, I just hate their paint job when people use ultramarine blue. It just looks like a smurf and I can't take them seriously. Crimson Fists all the way

Way to be original with your joke. Here, have this cookie.
Or, of course, you could try a serious opinion for a change.


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LoneLictor wrote:It seems to me like you're being the unreasonable you. If you can't acknowledge that having a utopian and fair and just society does not mesh with the Imperium in the slightest, then its impossible for this debate to achieve anything. And actually, A Thousand Sons makes the jolly Space Wolves look grimdark. They're like if you took angry people at taverns and gave them god like power; all they do is get into fights and kill innocents, with seemingly no regard for human life. Its a really good book actually, I would suggest you read it. And I'll try to get "Know No Fear."

I think you'll find that Ultramar is not a Utopia. Read some of the descriptions of life on Calth that McNeill puts in his books.
Ultramar might be run more fairly than other parts of the Imperium, but it still has to abide by Imperial Law. I think when some people say "it's a utopia," they forget that.

Well. You can mock any Marine paintjob with similarly coloured cartoon-style characters

Imperial Fist = Sponge Bob
Salamanders = Kermit
Space Wolves = Bugs Bunny

whatever...

Not sure that goes much anywhere.

1d4chan is not that bad. Yes we do have some people make realy stupid comments but swift through our humor and read our short stories and you will enjoy yourself. I am a poster on 1d4chan and am currently (attempting) fixing the Necron page. So lets please avoid saying that just because our site is mainly for lulz means we have no clue what we are talking about.

I don't think anyone is saying the posters don't know what they are talking about, only that nothing on that page can be taken seriously since it's written for humorous effect and not for accuracy. Especially when it comes to the Ultramarines.

I shall be honest. For me I go from mild disregard of the Ultramarines to honest hatred due to their defenders who for unknown reasons treats me like I'm slowed, and must stuff fluff down my throat. Seriously, get a life Ultramarine-fanbois. Stop treating everyone like they haven't read the horribly written Space Marine Codex. It reeks, pure and simple.

Chowderhead wrote:Because the Boys In Blue has been given the Redicufluff by every writer ever.

To which I say who the hell cares?

Fluff doesnt equal rules.

I'm more pissed about all the band wagon players playing GK, BA SW power-builds then what some meaningless story about Ultras says...

It is a misplaced and forced attempt to somehow seem cool that I never really understood when the game has far bigger problems and things to be mad about...

The reason I hate ultramarine is because in all the fluff they are invinceible. Like 1 marine kills 200000 orks all by himself and in another marine chapter a whole company loses to a small ork force. ( am only using orks as example)

40kSpartan wrote:The reason I hate ultramarine is because in all the fluff they are invinceible. Like 1 marine kills 200000 orks all by himself and in another marine chapter a whole company loses to a small ork force. ( am only using orks as example)

Nope. You clearly don't read the fluff, ever.
Or maybe you'd like to explain why an entire company gets it's arse handed to it in the battle of Macragge, even with supporting IG regiments.
Oh wait, not just any company but the 1st Company, whilst wearing Terminator armour. Yep.
I can understand some of the annoyance at the newer fluff, but this sort of statement is ridiculous.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

40kSpartan wrote:The reason I hate ultramarine is because in all the fluff they are invinceible. Like 1 marine kills 200000 orks all by himself and in another marine chapter a whole company loses to a small ork force. ( am only using orks as example)

Nope. You clearly don't read the fluff, ever.
Or maybe you'd like to explain why an entire company gets it's arse handed to it in the battle of Macragge, even with supporting IG regiments.
Oh wait, not just any company but the 1st Company, whilst wearing Terminator armour. Yep.
I can understand some of the annoyance at the newer fluff, but this sort of statement is ridiculous.

So it's ridiculous because they read fluff they thought was dumb so didn't read more of their fluff and that makes it ridiculous? seriously? That statement makes no sense. Oh well this army looks stupid lets read on! lol

The best way I can add to this.

Official theme song of the Warhammer 40k Universe, and I am a major WH40k Player!

Draigo wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

40kSpartan wrote:The reason I hate ultramarine is because in all the fluff they are invinceible. Like 1 marine kills 200000 orks all by himself and in another marine chapter a whole company loses to a small ork force. ( am only using orks as example)

Nope. You clearly don't read the fluff, ever.
Or maybe you'd like to explain why an entire company gets it's arse handed to it in the battle of Macragge, even with supporting IG regiments.
Oh wait, not just any company but the 1st Company, whilst wearing Terminator armour. Yep.
I can understand some of the annoyance at the newer fluff, but this sort of statement is ridiculous.

So it's ridiculous because they read fluff they thought was dumb so didn't read more of their fluff and that makes it ridiculous? seriously? That statement makes no sense. Oh well this army looks stupid lets read on! lol

No, he was saying what he said was wrong. Can someone point me to the bit of fluff stating an Ultramarine killed 200,000 Orks? My only guess is he's talking about the game Space Marine, which has dubious claims to being fluff. Even if it was, the gameplay itself shouldn't be considered (otherwise we need to start counting tabletop games as fluff).

A lot of the hate for Ultramarines comes from taking internet hyperbole as official fluff.

The Ultramarines fought alongside the grey knights in one point of fluff then instead of warping the minds of the ultramarines they praised them. The orks cant kill a single ultramarine accourding to fluff. They never have been curropted by chaos a single time.
(Guess who is writing this fluff as well as rewriting the other fluff to shine the ultramrine army)

Also the Number one fluff writer for ultamarines is matt ward.
The battle of macrage was before matt ward and he deleted the entire thing with tyranids and made it say that the ultramarines killed every single last tyranid.
Also 90% of the people defending the ultramarines are people who plays ultrasmurfs or has played them.
The 1d4chan page on them dose shed some light on them but dose it in a funny sort of way.

Nurgle wrote:The Ultramarines fought alongside the grey knights in one point of fluff then instead of warping the minds of the ultramarines they praised them. The orks cant kill a single ultramarine accourding to fluff. They never have been curropted by chaos a single time.

We do have actual sources to support this right? Because we do have fluff of orks slaying Ultramairnes (Assualt on Black Reach) and other chapters fighting alongside Grey Knights without a mind wipe (Space Wolves)

Nurgle wrote:
Also the Number one fluff writer for ultamarines is matt ward.

No he is not. He has wrote a single Codex. Graham McNeill and Nick Kyme have written more than he has.

Nurgle wrote:
The battle of macrage was before matt ward and he deleted the entire thing with tyranids and made it say that the ultramarines killed every single last tyranid.

The Battle of Macragge is largely reprinted from earlier sources.To my knowledge Mat Ward has made no major changes to the fluff of the battle.

Nurgle wrote:
Also 90% of the people defending the ultramarines are people who plays ultrasmurfs or has played them.

So you are such an expert on the personal gaming lives of everybody on this site?

I do think the statement 90 percent of those who defend smurfs are somehow smurf fans is ridiculous. Same as blaming Mat Ward for their majority fluff. You forget their ominubus and all the bl stuff?

Everyones codex says theyre awesomesauce.

I'd say people hate the Ultramarines because it's cool to do so. Join the bandwagon, point out that Ultramar is like Rome in it's golden years and how that can't be true because the universe of 40k is all about nasty, gothic, depressing gak.

I think the UMs have their place in 40k. They are there to show you that there are good guys in a universe where, for all intents and purposes, there aren't any good guys.

Every SM chapter has their own place, be it a marketing ploy or some fanboy-writer's dream of epicness. In the end it's all about having fun anyway.

Nurgle wrote:The Ultramarines fought alongside the grey knights in one point of fluff then instead of warping the minds of the ultramarines they praised them. The orks cant kill a single ultramarine accourding to fluff. They never have been curropted by chaos a single time.
(Guess who is writing this fluff as well as rewriting the other fluff to shine the ultramrine army)

Actually, since the Grey Knights codex says that they're the only chapter never to have had someone be corrupted, there has been at least one Ultramarine corrupted by Chaos. Even in the Chaos codex there's a bit about how a captain in the Sons of Guilliman defected and took a solar system with him.

Ok So the people who hate ultramarines because they always win I think are being unfair. All space marines almost universally always win. They are the the super elite fighting force of an empire that conquered the galaxy and have maintained it for 10k years. If they didn't almost always win the imperium wouldn't exist.

The IoM is grimdark, because 1) there aren't enough sm to battle the overall threat to the IoM 2) their emperor is dying 3) individual life is worth nothing. It remains grimdark IMO even if part of the imperium functions well and ever are a million super elite killers running around on your side.

Nurgle wrote:The Ultramarines fought alongside the grey knights in one point of fluff then instead of warping the minds of the ultramarines they praised them. The orks cant kill a single ultramarine accourding to fluff. They never have been curropted by chaos a single time.
(Guess who is writing this fluff as well as rewriting the other fluff to shine the ultramrine army)

Again, nope. There are thousands of examples of Ultramarines dying to almosty everything ever; hell, the battle of Corinth, the Ultramarines Omnibus and various other Bl books are good examples of that. There is also a fair amount of stories concerning Ultramarines who have fallen to Chaos, so again, that statement is hyperbole.

The battle of macrage was before matt ward and he deleted the entire thing with tyranids and made it say that the ultramarines killed every single last tyranid.

Nope. He didn't.
Read it; the 1st company still dies, and so does the IG there. Yes, the Ultramarines wipe out most (though not all) of the Tyranids, but that is how you win battles against them. Basically, your problem seems to be that they didn't lose the battle to save their home system, or didn't enact a derp like the Crimson Fists.

Also 90% of the people defending the ultramarines are people who plays ultrasmurfs or has played them.

Bullcrap. There's no basis for that statement at all. That's a little like Twihards stating that 90% of people who hate on Twilight haven't read the books/watched the films and so don't know what they're talking about.
In my case, my armies have been (in this order) CSM, Orks, Space Wolves. Notice the lack of Ultramarines there?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Draigo wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

40kSpartan wrote:The reason I hate ultramarine is because in all the fluff they are invinceible. Like 1 marine kills 200000 orks all by himself and in another marine chapter a whole company loses to a small ork force. ( am only using orks as example)

Nope. You clearly don't read the fluff, ever.
Or maybe you'd like to explain why an entire company gets it's arse handed to it in the battle of Macragge, even with supporting IG regiments.
Oh wait, not just any company but the 1st Company, whilst wearing Terminator armour. Yep.
I can understand some of the annoyance at the newer fluff, but this sort of statement is ridiculous.

So it's ridiculous because they read fluff they thought was dumb so didn't read more of their fluff and that makes it ridiculous? seriously? That statement makes no sense. Oh well this army looks stupid lets read on! lol

You'd be right if what this guy was saying actually happened in-fluff. It didn't and he's using hyperbole. Therefore it is ridiculous to claim what he claimed.

infinite_array wrote:Honestly, I go off from 'Mr. Ultramarine' himself, Graham McNeil. Sure, they're BL books, but we still get plenty of examples where someone argues against an action being taken, because it goes against the Codex.

And yet Ventris learns from Idaeus that from time to time one should violate it?

The worst part of the Omnibus, for me was:

For me one of the ultimate "hates" of ultramarines came with the Necron Ghost Ark. Lo and behold a bunch of ultramarine horseshoes stuck together!!! It almost made me get ill at the thought.

To me it is like the Ultramarine propaganda artists weren't done with handling the imperium but sold the Necrons that "hey you really want this vehicle and nevermind that it is displaying the logo of the Ultramarines." It is kind of like having the doors of a Burger King in the form of the McDonald's golden arches...

DAaddict wrote:For me one of the ultimate "hates" of ultramarines came with the Necron Ghost Ark. Lo and behold a bunch of ultramarine horseshoes stuck together!!! It almost made me get ill at the thought.

To me it is like the Ultramarine propaganda artists weren't done with handling the imperium but sold the Necrons that "hey you really want this vehicle and nevermind that it is displaying the logo of the Ultramarines." It is kind of like having the doors of a Burger King in the form of the McDonald's golden arches...

Because all Us ever relate to Ultramarines.
TELL THE PEOPLE. THEY MUST KNOW.



P.s. I think you are probably joking with this comment.