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Read the edit I added while you were typing

shrike wrote:*I think it'd be better if they showed models on the boxes depending on the squad, e.g terminators should be imperial fists, assault marines/scouts should be raven guard, tactical marines should be ultramarines, bikers should be white scars, etc.

Like I said in my long post about why Codex: Ultramarines was renamed Codex: Space Marines, the box covers depicting Ultramarines is a marketing decision. It keeps all of the generic Space Marine products easily identifiable to new players. Existing players don't need their egos soothed by seeing their favorite chapter on box covers. They'll buy the models they need anyway, and then bitch about it on the Internet.

There on the front of nearly every space marine box and 6 year olds go 'why arent they painted like the ones on the box'

"Why does everyone hate on the Ultramarines?"

* They're seen as the boy scouts (Insert: Bland, vanila, boring) of the Emperium.
* It's easy to pile on the hate if others already are (if you're a dick).
* Immaturity.
* They've been the "favorites" for a while now, appearing on many/most of the box covers, have half of the named characters in the C:SM book, and so on.

They're a good chapter and I like their paint scheme, but I play Black Templar or Crimson Fists (Sons of Dorn!).

In Hindsight, It is actually the whole "Greatest in the Imperium" thing that I don't like.

The reason they are the "Greatest" Is because they have been fleshed out most. If you change the box art and the most fleshed out chapter to say Salamanders then after a couple of years it would be them we're piling the hate on

I can't speak for everyone, but I can speak for myself. I don't like the holier than thou attitude that comes with the supposed "we are the best." Line. That and their backstory.
During the heresy they didn't defend Terra at all. I know they had things on Mcragge to deal with, but come on the craddle of human life is in trouble and you don't have anyone there? Multiple legions were hit hard, except for the ultras. Then afterward Gulliman announces his codex astartes. Not what the emperor laid out, his creation. Then forces it upon everyone else. When some refuse and follow what the emperor told them to do they get attacked.

Now the final straw is that one of the things in the Codex is that chapters may have either a fleet or a fortress monestary on ONE read it again ONE world from which they draw recruits. How many worlds do the ultramarines control? Oh right a sector. So they think they are better than all the others then they force their will upon everyone else using force where neccessary then don't follow their own rules!

Now from a management perspective GW started by focusing on the Crimson Fists and their story of noble struggle to survive and rebuild after a Waaagh. Then they go to the pretty boys, who have supperiority issues.

Hope ultramar finds more nids to finish the job.

Akroma06 wrote:I can't speak for everyone, but I can speak for myself. I don't like the holier than thou attitude that comes with the supposed "we are the best." Line. That and their backstory.

Well as I said before, there is a difference between GW telling us the fluff and what the characters themselves say.

Akroma06 wrote:IDuring the heresy they didn't defend Terra at all. I know they had things on Mcragge to deal with, but come on the craddle of human life is in trouble and you don't have anyone there? Multiple legions were hit hard, except for the ultras.

Actually if you read Know No Fear, two thirds of the Ultramarines Legion was killed. Then warp storms surrounded Ultramar.

Akroma06 wrote:
Then afterward Gulliman announces his codex astartes. Not what the emperor laid out, his creation. Then forces it upon everyone else. When some refuse and follow what the emperor told them to do they get attacked.

Actually those changes were decreed by the High Lords. And you might be surprised to learn that most Primarchs supported Guilliman.

The Collected Visions book already mentioned that the Emperor had planned to create a "Council of Terra" to rule the Imperium after the Crusade would have ended. That was then reformed into the "High Lords of Terra" after the Heresy. IIRC some of the HH books also mention that some Primarchs worried what would become of them once the Crusade would be over and the Legions would no longer be needed.

Guilliman had been appointed commander over the Imperial armed foerces by the Imperium's ruling council. (It is also worth to point out that the Imperium was at the brink of splintering into several different factions, had the High Lords not come together and created the council.) And the Space Marine Legions are part of the Imperial armed forces, however much free reign the Primarchs might have had in conducting the crusade. There was nothing fishy about it.

The decrees within the Codex Astartes were drawn up at the behest of the High Lords, they were not simply something Guilliman made up. Dorn was not refusing the idears of a brother, he was refusing the decrees of the Imperial government.

Akroma06 wrote:
Now the final straw is that one of the things in the Codex is that chapters may have either a fleet or a fortress monestary on ONE read it again ONE world from which they draw recruits.

Where does it say that?

Akroma06 wrote:
Oh right a sector.

A sector is hardly eight worlds.

Akroma06 wrote:
So they think they are better than all the others then they force their will upon everyone else using force where neccessary then don't follow their own rules!

It is a widely held belief that since Guilliman wrote the Codex, and since Dorn had to comply with the decree of splitting his Legion, that therefor Guilliman was forcing all of the others to "do things his way". This ignores the fact that the mandatory legislation elements of the Codex were developed after the Heresy on behest of the High Lords and that the doctrine part of the Codex was a guide rather than decree. This is evident by the fact that Dorn's and Russ' issues were specifically about the decree to divide the Legions, not about any organisational matters, and by the fact that a lot of the First and Second Founding Chapters do deviate from the strict Codex organisation. If Dorn was forced on gunpoint to conform to the decree to split his Legion, then why were the Salamanders, the Iron Hands and the Space Wolves allowed to keep certain distinct organisational elements? Because that part was not forced on the new Chapters, like the decree limiting the allowed force strength and fleet assets was.

Gree wrote:Actually if you read Know No Fear, two thirds of the Ultramarines Legion was killed. Then warp storms surrounded Ultramar.

to be fair, the raven guard lost over 96% of thier chapter as Istvaan, got surrounded by warp storms and still made it to Terra several months before Horus attacked it.
The warp storms surrounding ultramar may have been bigger/stronger, though...

shrike wrote:

Gree wrote:Actually if you read Know No Fear, two thirds of the Ultramarines Legion was killed. Then warp storms surrounded Ultramar.

to be fair, the raven guard lost over 96% of thier chapter as Istvaan, got surrounded by warp storms and still made it to Terra several months before Horus attacked it.
The warp storms surrounding ultramar may have been bigger/stronger, though...

When are the Raven Guard mentioned to getting to Terra? I recall Corax going to Terra before the Siege in Deliverance Lost, but the Raven Guard did not show up at the Siege. (Interestingly, Collected Visions notes that the Ultramarines were part of the reinforcement fleet alongside the Dark Angels and Space Wolves)

but I was responding to the assertion that the Ultramarines did not get hit hard.

Akroma06 wrote:I can't speak for everyone, but I can speak for myself. I don't like the holier than thou attitude that comes with the supposed "we are the best." Line. That and their backstory.
During the heresy they didn't defend Terra at all. I know they had things on Mcragge to deal with, but come on the craddle of human life is in trouble and you don't have anyone there? Multiple legions were hit hard, except for the ultras. Then afterward Gulliman announces his codex astartes. Not what the emperor laid out, his creation. Then forces it upon everyone else. When some refuse and follow what the emperor told them to do they get attacked.

Now the final straw is that one of the things in the Codex is that chapters may have either a fleet or a fortress monestary on ONE read it again ONE world from which they draw recruits. How many worlds do the ultramarines control? Oh right a sector. So they think they are better than all the others then they force their will upon everyone else using force where neccessary then don't follow their own rules!

Now from a management perspective GW started by focusing on the Crimson Fists and their story of noble struggle to survive and rebuild after a Waaagh. Then they go to the pretty boys, who have supperiority issues.

Hope ultramar finds more nids to finish the job.

I too hate the Salamanders and the Raven Guard because they didn't defend Terra at all...oh...wait....that would be stupid. The Ultramarines were busy getting backstabbed by the Word Bearers. That the Legion survived at all is quite an achivement. What the carriongod laid out is of little importance, after all his oh so glorious plans lead to the whole mess. Splitting up the Legions was, especialy in the face of considerable mistrust from all those who suffered because of the Legions, a wise choice and helped to mend the young and still fragile Imperium.
Papa Smurf didn't force anyone to accept the codex, as can be seen by the continued existance of non codex chapters. He merely forced the Legions to split, which was not a bad choice.
Nowhere does the codex state that everyone has to recruit from just a single world. The Imperial Fists, the Dark Angels, the White Consuls and many more chapters chose their recruits from a large number of worlds. Most chapters ( at least those who aren't fleetbound ) merely govern a single system / world. The Ultramarines also do not govern an entire single sector. Ultramar has 13 known worlds, that is at best a subsector. Your claim that the Ultramarines actualy think they are better than anyone else is not backed up by actual fluff.

Focusing on the Crimson Fists is most certainly a possiblity but why should GW focus on a chapter that is so utterly incompetent that they destroy their own fortress monastery? See? I too can play the idiothate game. ( the Fists are of course cool )

Gree wrote:

shrike wrote:

Gree wrote:Actually if you read Know No Fear, two thirds of the Ultramarines Legion was killed. Then warp storms surrounded Ultramar.

to be fair, the raven guard lost over 96% of thier chapter as Istvaan, got surrounded by warp storms and still made it to Terra several months before Horus attacked it.
The warp storms surrounding ultramar may have been bigger/stronger, though...

When are the Raven Guard mentioned to getting to Terra? I recall Corax going to Terra before the Siege in Deliverance Lost, but the Raven Guard did not show up at the Siege.

That is the instance to which I am referring- The raven guard got hit badly at Istvaan, got surrounded by warp storms, flew to Terra, most of the raven guard waited in orbit while an honour guard and Corax spoke to Dorn, the Sigillite and the emperor, got the gene-seed data and went back to the deliverance systemt to try and rebuild.
My point is that the raven guard were hit much harder and managed to get to Terra through warp storms, so why couldn't the Ultramarines? (unless the warp storms were worse)

shrike wrote:

Gree wrote:

shrike wrote:

Gree wrote:Actually if you read Know No Fear, two thirds of the Ultramarines Legion was killed. Then warp storms surrounded Ultramar.

to be fair, the raven guard lost over 96% of thier chapter as Istvaan, got surrounded by warp storms and still made it to Terra several months before Horus attacked it.
The warp storms surrounding ultramar may have been bigger/stronger, though...

When are the Raven Guard mentioned to getting to Terra? I recall Corax going to Terra before the Siege in Deliverance Lost, but the Raven Guard did not show up at the Siege.

That is the instance to which I am referring- The raven guard got hit badly at Istvaan, got surrounded by warp storms, flew to Terra, most of the raven guard waited in orbit while an honour guard and Corax spoke to Dorn, the Sigillite and the emperor, got the gene-seed data and went back to the deliverance systemt to try and rebuild.
My point is that the raven guard were hit much harder and managed to get to Terra through warp storms, so why couldn't the Ultramarines? (unless the warp storms were worse)

Well first of all, most of the Ultramarines fleet was destroyed in Know No Fear. That and Erebus summoned the warp storms right at Calth, so that might have something to do with it.

And of course, if the Raven Guard could get to Terra so quickly why were they not at the Siege?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

KingDeath wrote:
Your claim that the Ultramarines actualy think they are better than anyone else is not backed up by actual fluff.

I’m sure every chapter thinks they are the best. I doubt the Salamanders think the Imperial Fists are superior and I doubt the Wolves think the Lion was better than Russ. They wouldn’t start shoving it on other chapter’s faces though. No chapter would go up in the face of another chapter and start proclaiming themselves superior. That would be pointless and cause needless strife.

Gree wrote:

shrike wrote:That is the instance to which I am referring- The raven guard got hit badly at Istvaan, got surrounded by warp storms, flew to Terra, most of the raven guard waited in orbit while an honour guard and Corax spoke to Dorn, the Sigillite and the emperor, got the gene-seed data and went back to the deliverance systemt to try and rebuild.
My point is that the raven guard were hit much harder and managed to get to Terra through warp storms, so why couldn't the Ultramarines? (unless the warp storms were worse)

Well first of all, most of the Ultramarines fleet was destroyed in Know No Fear. That and Erebus summoned the warp storms right at Calth, so that might have something to do with it.

And of course, if the Raven Guard could get to Terra so quickly why were they not at the Siege?

Fair enough with most of the fleet destroyed, then.
and Dorn and the Sigillite tried to convince Corax to stay, but he had only 3000 troops and raven guard were better on the move, as opposed to static. He went and, using gene-seed cloning technology given to him by the emperor, spent months rebuilding the legion to roughly 6000 or so, then with the help of the imperial guard, led numerous hit & run raids on chaos-held worlds, killing far more than they would have stood on the walls at Terra.

shrike wrote:

Gree wrote:

shrike wrote:That is the instance to which I am referring- The raven guard got hit badly at Istvaan, got surrounded by warp storms, flew to Terra, most of the raven guard waited in orbit while an honour guard and Corax spoke to Dorn, the Sigillite and the emperor, got the gene-seed data and went back to the deliverance systemt to try and rebuild.
My point is that the raven guard were hit much harder and managed to get to Terra through warp storms, so why couldn't the Ultramarines? (unless the warp storms were worse)

Well first of all, most of the Ultramarines fleet was destroyed in Know No Fear. That and Erebus summoned the warp storms right at Calth, so that might have something to do with it.

And of course, if the Raven Guard could get to Terra so quickly why were they not at the Siege?

Fair enough with most of the fleet destroyed, then.
and Dorn and the Sigillite tried to convince Corax to stay, but he had only 3000 troops and raven guard were better on the move, as opposed to static. He went and, using gene-seed cloning technology given to him by the emperor, spent months rebuilding the legion to roughly 6000 or so, then with the help of the imperial guard, led numerous hit & run raids on chaos-held worlds, killing far more than they would have stood on the walls at Terra.

Then why where the Space Wolves not at the Siege? Or the Dark Angels? Or the Iron Hands?

(Perhaps it’s interesting to note that the Lion was stuck in a sector for two years because of warp storms while Corax can seemingly fly around easily for some reason.)

Let's face it, people hate Ultramarines for the most stupid of reasons.
One guy even said: "because they are blue".
Haters gonna hate I guess....

Gree wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:I can't speak for everyone, but I can speak for myself. I don't like the holier than thou attitude that comes with the supposed "we are the best." Line. That and their backstory.

Well as I said before, there is a difference between GW telling us the fluff and what the characters themselves say.

Fair enough.

Gree wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:IDuring the heresy they didn't defend Terra at all. I know they had things on Mcragge to deal with, but come on the craddle of human life is in trouble and you don't have anyone there? Multiple legions were hit hard, except for the ultras.

Actually if you read Know No Fear, two thirds of the Ultramarines Legion was killed. Then warp storms surrounded Ultramar.

I never said they took no casualties, but the conflict had been going on for a quite a while and they knew Horus' goal was Terra.

Gree wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:
Then afterward Gulliman announces his codex astartes. Not what the emperor laid out, his creation. Then forces it upon everyone else. When some refuse and follow what the emperor told them to do they get attacked.

Actually those changes were decreed by the High Lords. And you might be surprised to learn that most Primarchs supported Guilliman.

The Collected Visions book already mentioned that the Emperor had planned to create a "Council of Terra" to rule the Imperium after the Crusade would have ended. That was then reformed into the "High Lords of Terra" after the Heresy. IIRC some of the HH books also mention that some Primarchs worried what would become of them once the Crusade would be over and the Legions would no longer be needed.

Guilliman had been appointed commander over the Imperial armed foerces by the Imperium's ruling council. (It is also worth to point out that the Imperium was at the brink of splintering into several different factions, had the High Lords not come together and created the council.) And the Space Marine Legions are part of the Imperial armed forces, however much free reign the Primarchs might have had in conducting the crusade. There was nothing fishy about it.

The decrees within the Codex Astartes were drawn up at the behest of the High Lords, they were not simply something Guilliman made up. Dorn was not refusing the idears of a brother, he was refusing the decrees of the Imperial government.

First off everything I have read said Guilliman. Codecies are considered canon and I know my BT and my C:SM say Guilliman. Even if it is the High Lords that is not what the emperor said. Now as for the Primarchs it was an even split as I recall. Even then to openly attack your brothers for not agreeing?

Gree wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:
Now the final straw is that one of the things in the Codex is that chapters may have either a fleet or a fortress monestary on ONE read it again ONE world from which they draw recruits.

Where does it say that?

I have read it in my BT codex (get you a page number later) and I'm looking at it in the Lexicanum right now.

Gree wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:
Oh right a sector.

A sector is hardly eight worlds.

It can be, but my point is it is not one world. Which reminds me that the ultramarines and their successors are to fall back to McCragge should the imperium's situation become more dire.

Gree wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:
So they think they are better than all the others then they force their will upon everyone else using force where neccessary then don't follow their own rules!

It is a widely held belief that since Guilliman wrote the Codex, and since Dorn had to comply with the decree of splitting his Legion, that therefor Guilliman was forcing all of the others to "do things his way". This ignores the fact that the mandatory legislation elements of the Codex were developed after the Heresy on behest of the High Lords and that the doctrine part of the Codex was a guide rather than decree. This is evident by the fact that Dorn's and Russ' issues were specifically about the decree to divide the Legions, not about any organisational matters, and by the fact that a lot of the First and Second Founding Chapters do deviate from the strict Codex organisation. If Dorn was forced on gunpoint to conform to the decree to split his Legion, then why were the Salamanders, the Iron Hands and the Space Wolves allowed to keep certain distinct organisational elements? Because that part was not forced on the new Chapters, like the decree limiting the allowed force strength and fleet assets was.

Hey I don't write the fluff, I just read it. I was still talking about having more than one planet. As in the ultras going here follow these rules, and then we won't stick to all of them! Don't like it? We will fire at you then. If it was supposed to be a guide why was it enforced at gunpoint? We don't want your guidlines, but we continue to serve the emperor.

Dorn was attacked! Repedatively. His fleet would enter orbit and they would open fire on him! It was only to keep the imperium united that he relented. He cared more about the Imperium and what the emperor did than his own pride.

I beilieve that the Iron Hands were already at Chapter Strength and I don't know about Russ and the SW.

Gree wrote:

KingDeath wrote:
Your claim that the Ultramarines actualy think they are better than anyone else is not backed up by actual fluff.

I’m sure every chapter thinks they are the best. I doubt the Salamanders think the Imperial Fists are superior and I doubt the Wolves think the Lion was better than Russ. They wouldn’t start shoving it on other chapter’s faces though. No chapter would go up in the face of another chapter and start proclaiming themselves superior. That would be pointless and cause needless strife.

But the Salamanders don't call the Imperial Fists degenerates for not using enough flamers. The fluff in the codex has to be from someone's point of view, so either there are chapters that genuinely do feel shamed because they never can be Ultramarines, or the Ultramarines themselves regard all other chapters as inferior or degenerate.

Were are all the kids who play Ultramarines in my area? Or kids at all? I'm always the youngest at my LGS and I am 2 weeks till 16. And I play Imperial Guard.

Interesting the points made by both sides. It would seem to me that a lack of information about them might be a cause of the issue. I mean think of all the sources over how many editions you guys have cities to know all this.

Imagine this from a newer player pov. They only know a tip of the iceberg so only have opinions based on such a small piece of this. Typically dislike of something comes from a lack of completely understanding the others pov. SO if all you see if they're ultra, super and perfect like in the new codex you would have such a narrow view of them as a whole.

Akroma06 wrote:I never said they took no casualties, but the conflict had been going on for a quite a while and they knew Horus' goal was Terra.

You said multiple Legions were hit hard, except for the Ultramarines. Two thirds losses is what I would call hit hard.

But what the Ultramairneas knew of Horus’s plans were debatable. The fact that Guilliman literally had most of his fleet annihilated in drydock by the Word Bearers would have factored into that.

Akroma06 wrote:
First off everything I have read said Guilliman.

I just posted a quote directly a few pages back noting the High Lords decree.

Akroma06 wrote:
Codecies are considered canon and I know my BT and my C:SM say Guilliman.

He did it, but it was decreed by the High Lords
.
The newly created High Lords established the organisation of the Imperium that remains familiar to this day. The first High Lords laid down the structure by which the Adeptus Terra operates, and described the feudal responsibilities and duties of planetary lords. One of their most important accomplishments was the reorganisation of the Imperium’s armed forces. This task was undertaken almost singlehandedly by the Primarch of the Ultramarine Legion of Space Marines, Roboute Guilliman, who quickly and efficiently codified the structure of the Imperial Guard, the Fleet and the Space Marines. Of all his works the most influential is the Codex Astartes, the great prescriptive tome that lays down the basic organisational and tactical rules for Space Marines. The Horus Heresy had revealed weaknesses in the geneseed of several Space Marine Legions which had been exaggerated by the accelerated zygote harvesting techniques needed to keep the huge Space Marine Legions up to strength. The powers of Chaos exploited this growing physical and mental corruption to turn Horus’s troops against the Emperor. The prime objective of the new Codex Astartes was to recognise and expunge these weaknesses.-Codex Space Marines.

Guilliman undertook the task but it was decreed by the High Lords.

Akroma06 wrote:
Even if it is the High Lords that is not what the emperor said.

The Emperor put a bunch of normal humans in charge of the Imperium. Horus even laments at one point in the books that he is being given orders by them. Then those normal humans decided to make changes with the Emperor’s authority.

If anybody has any claim to rule the Imperium it’s going to be the High Lords.

Akroma06 wrote:
Now as for the Primarchs it was an even split as I recall.

The original fluff was Guilliman, Khan and Corax on one side, and Russ, Dorn and Vulkan on another. But now according to Imperial Armour 10 retcons Vulkan into being astrong supporter of Guilliman.

So as of the most recent fluff, Guilliman, Khan, Corax and Vulkan stood on one side and Dorn and Russ on the other.

Akroma06 wrote:
I have read it in my BT codex (get you a page number later) and I'm looking at it in the Lexicanum right now.

Lexicanum is not really a reliable source. I’ve seen thins paraphrased or misinterpreted on there before. Use the actual sources please.

Akroma06 wrote:
It can be, but my point is it is not one world. Which reminds me that the ultramarines and their successors are to fall back to McCragge should the imperium's situation become more dire.

I imagine every chapter would logically fall to their homeworld if things got dire.

Akroma06 wrote:
Hey I don't write the fluff, I just read it. I was still talking about having more than one planet.

Where is it noted that Chapters are restricted to one planet? I can name at least two Chapters (The Raven Guard and Executioners) have two planets and nobody raises a fuss.

Akroma06 wrote:
We will fire at you then. If it was supposed to be a guide why was it enforced at gunpoint? We don't want your guidlines, but we continue to serve the emperor.

As I already explained, the size limits was enforced, not the tactics or organization part. The entire issue addressed in the fluff was Dorn and Russ having an issue with the breaking of the Legions. There is no conflict recorded as Dorn having with the combat tactics part.

A lot of people who only glance over the Black Templars background get the impression that Guilliman forced all the Legions and Chapters to organize into ten Companies of ten squads, just like his own Ultramarines. But then we have the Salamanders and the Space Wolves, who aren't organised that way, or the Iron Hands who do not have any reserve companies. A lot of players do not make a distinction between the combat doctrines part of the Codex, which was mainy guidelines and suggestions, and the legislation part of the Codex, which was mandatory for all Space Marines. As a result of this Guilliman is seen as pompous and arrogant for seemingly requiring all Space Marine forces to organise and fight according to his idears, when it was mainly the legislation, which Guilliman had devised on behest of the High Lords and as a reaction to the events of the Heresy, which was mandated and decreed to all.

In the Codex Ultramarines and the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, the Codex Astartes is described in too much detail as to give a short quote, but it has several paragraphs explaining that two of the most important aspects of the Codex were the regulation of force sizes and the revised training doctrine for new recruits, and then in the final paragraph points out that the Codex also includes tactical roles, equipment specifications and uniform markings. The Codex is not only a guidbook on warfare, though that was probably Guilliman's pet project during the Crusade. The Codex defines the rules and laws Space Marines are subject to, and their place within the Imperium as one of the Adeptus' organisations.

Essentially: Guilliman works throughout the Great Crusade to compile a massive treatise on warfare, in which he includes a lot of contributions by his brothers. After the Heresy, Guilliman becomes one of the High Lords of Terra, and is tasked with reforming the Imperial military and codifying the future legislation for Space Marines. He combines both of these elements into the "Codex Astartes", which deals with all aspects concerning Space Marines, and presents this to his brothers as the future of the Space Marines. This Codex includes the mandates for Space Marines, and the reforms which the Legions (as well as all the other Imperial armed forces) all have to abide by. And it also includes the massive guidebook on warfare which Guilliman had been working on all his life. The legislation part is mandatory for all Space Marines, and is decreed by the High Lords. The guide is not mandatory, and would be impossible to police and to enforce, and not all First and Second Founding Chapters fully adhere to it.

Rogal Dorn had a problem with the mandate to limit the number of Space Marines one single individual was allowed to command. This had been one of the decrees by the High Lords which had been a result of the Heresy, and therefor Dorn was not permitted to disregard it.

Akroma06 wrote:
Dorn was attacked! Repedatively. His fleet would enter orbit and they would open fire on him! It was only to keep the imperium united that he relented. He cared more about the Imperium and what the emperor did than his own pride.

He was fired at once by an Imperial Navy ship because he was rebelling against a superior authority. He did not rule the Imperium, the High Lords did.

Durza wrote:

Gree wrote:

KingDeath wrote:
Your claim that the Ultramarines actualy think they are better than anyone else is not backed up by actual fluff.

I’m sure every chapter thinks they are the best. I doubt the Salamanders think the Imperial Fists are superior and I doubt the Wolves think the Lion was better than Russ. They wouldn’t start shoving it on other chapter’s faces though. No chapter would go up in the face of another chapter and start proclaiming themselves superior. That would be pointless and cause needless strife.

But the Salamanders don't call the Imperial Fists degenerates for not using enough flamers. The fluff in the codex has to be from someone's point of view, so either there are chapters that genuinely do feel shamed because they never can be Ultramarines, or the Ultramarines themselves regard all other chapters as inferior or degenerate.

Do you have any actual source thaty the Ultramarines think the Fists are degnerates? We have Ward's third person narrative voice, but I have yet to see any evidence that the Ultramairnes disdain other chapters.

Was that two thirds of everyone there or two thirds of the entire legion?

And all I said was that if the source was truly third person, there wouldn't have been any opinion on those who didn't follow the codex, just that most did. The fact that there is an opinion means that someone must have it about them. As for the Fists, I only used them as an example for the Salamander analogy you used. Someone considers the Space Wolves and those like them degenerates, and it probably isn't themselves.

Durza wrote:Was that two thirds of everyone there or two thirds of the entire legion?

Two thirds of the entire Legion. At least that’s implied by the report of a Techpriest. 200,000 Ultramarine are present and to the end of the battle a Techpriest notes they only have contacts with less than 30,000 Ultramarines.

170,000 dead out of 250,000 is a hefy loss no matter how you look at it. Erebus even states that the Ultramarines are no longer a threat.

Oh, and I edited in a reply to your prior post Durza in my own prior post.



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Durza wrote:
And all I said was that if the source was truly third person, there wouldn't have been any opinion on those who didn't follow the codex, just that most did. The fact that there is an opinion means that someone must have it about them. As for the Fists, I only used them as an example for the Salamander analogy you used. Someone considers the Space Wolves and those like them degenerates, and it probably isn't themselves.

I will repeat myself:

There is a crucial difference between GW telling us that the Ultramarines are the greatest Chapter and the Ultramarines themselves proclaiming that they are the greatest Chapter. The latter would be pretty arrogant, while the former is merely GW describing the background. This is like saying the Dark Angels go around telling everyone that they have a big secret but aren't telling what it is.

Gree wrote:200,000 Ultramarine are present and to the end of the battle a Techpriest notes they only have contacts with less than 30,000 Ultramarines.

170,000 dead out of 250,000 is a hefy loss no matter how you look at it. Erebus even states that the Ultramarines are no longer a threat.

200,000 ultramarines? In knew raven guard were low in numbers, but wow... before Istvaan there were 80,000 raven guard, 3000 of which remained after Istvaan, including those which weren't there. *Australian accent* You call that a hefty loss? THIS is a hefty loss!

shrike wrote:

Gree wrote:200,000 Ultramarine are present and to the end of the battle a Techpriest notes they only have contacts with less than 30,000 Ultramarines.

170,000 dead out of 250,000 is a hefy loss no matter how you look at it. Erebus even states that the Ultramarines are no longer a threat.

200,000 ultramarines? In knew raven guard were low in numbers, but wow... before Istvaan there were 80,000 raven guard, 3000 of which remained after Istvaan, including those which weren't there. *Australian accent* You call that a hefty loss? THIS is a hefty loss!

Yes, yes, but losing over half oyur forces is still a hefy loss no matter how you want to look at it. That's my point, yes, I get the Raven Guard took big losses.

Gree wrote:

shrike wrote:

Gree wrote:200,000 Ultramarine are present and to the end of the battle a Techpriest notes they only have contacts with less than 30,000 Ultramarines.

170,000 dead out of 250,000 is a hefy loss no matter how you look at it. Erebus even states that the Ultramarines are no longer a threat.

200,000 ultramarines? In knew raven guard were low in numbers, but wow... before Istvaan there were 80,000 raven guard, 3000 of which remained after Istvaan, including those which weren't there. *Australian accent* You call that a hefty loss? THIS is a hefty loss!

Yes, yes, but losing over half oyur forces is still a hefy loss no matter how you want to look at it. That's my point, yes, I get the Raven Guard took big losses.

But yeah, I don't know why a few of the other chapters didn't show up... weren't the space wolves busy fighting the thousand sons?

I think it is interesting to see all the history against the Ultramarines stated here because of the Horus heresy. But my point is this, It is what happened after the heresy that put Them on the top of the list. After the heresy the ultra marines helped hold the imperium together.

Devil Dog wrote:After the heresy the ultra marines helped hold the imperium together.

When I hear that, I think of two things-
Housewives and duct tape.

Akroma06 wrote:I can't speak for everyone, but I can speak for myself. I don't like the holier than thou attitude that comes with the supposed "we are the best." Line. That and their backstory.
During the heresy they didn't defend Terra at all.

That's slowed. They weren't there. Originally they were too far away. Since then it has been retconned to be that their fleet was too badly mauled.

However, faulting the Ultramarines for not fighting at the Battle of Terra is like faulting the US Marines for not helping out at the Battle of Bastogne.

But yeah, Games Workshop tells us the fans that the Ultramarines are the "greatest of all Space Marine Chapters". The Ultramarines themselves don't wander around telling everyone how awesome they are. I mean, it is a logical possibility that one Space Marine Chapter is "greater" than all the others. Games Workshop tells us that Chapter is the Ultramarines. Hating the Ultramarines (or hating that fact) comes back down to the "Why not my favorite color of toy soldier" jealousy I described in my post. Or, just down to straight irrationality, lol.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:I can't speak for everyone, but I can speak for myself. I don't like the holier than thou attitude that comes with the supposed "we are the best." Line. That and their backstory.
During the heresy they didn't defend Terra at all.

That's slowed. They weren't there. Originally they were too far away. Since then it has been retconned to be that their fleet was too badly mauled.

However, faulting the Ultramarines for not fighting at the Battle of Terra is like faulting the US Marines for not helping out at the Battle of Bastogne.

I agree with this perfectly. Some Ultramarine Haters (Not all) will say anything that "makes the Ultras look bad."

Veteran Sergeant wrote:But yeah, Games Workshop tells us the fans that the Ultramarines are the "greatest of all Space Marine Chapters". The Ultramarines themselves don't wander around telling everyone how awesome they are. I mean, it is a logical possibility that one Space Marine Chapter is "greater" than all the others. Games Workshop tells us that Chapter is the Ultramarines. Hating the Ultramarines (or hating that fact) comes back down to the "Why not my favorite color of toy soldier" jealousy I described in my post.

Here's where I disagree. Saying you dislike the fluff doesn't mean your jealous of it. Say there was some fluff that said, "The Tau are the strongest race" and when you, an Ultramarine fan was understandably irks I said, "Oh, you poor sad soul you're just jealous that your precious plastic isn't as good as that plastic HAHHAHAHA!" Just because a person has an opinion on a fictional universe doesn't make them a loser whose obsessed with it.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Or, just down to straight irrationality, lol.

And here's another thing. People aren't jealous of the Ultramarines, but rather they dislike the fluff. At least most of them. As I've said before, different people dislike the Ultras for different reasons, but most dislike them because of bad writing. It's not as bad as Draigo, but its still bad. Ultramarines are too upbeat and too heroic for a grimdark universe like 40k. They have a utopian society, a powerful military and a far and just leader. In another universe (like Star Wars) that'd work fine, but it doesn't mesh with 40k. I think they should change it. Does that mean I'm jealous of a piece of plastic? No, in fact my life is far more fulfilling than the life of a little plastic mini.

You can dislike the Ultramarines for whatever reason you feel like justifies your irrationality, lol.

Too upbeat, not grimdark enough? Obviously you were confusing them with the Space Wolves and their jolly viking theme. The back story of Ultramar contains a planet with a dying sun, one eaten completely by Tyranids, etc. I mean, it doesn't get too much more grimdark than a perfect society being slowly eaten away. Have you read any of the Horus Heresy novels yet? Guess what that's describing? The fall of an advanced and glorious society. Grimdark doesn't mean everything has to suck, all the time. There are lots of "pleasure planets" and "nice" places all throughout the Imperium, and they are discussed in the lore all the time. Singling out Ultramar is simply confirmation bias.

Bad writing? Most of the people who hate the Ultramarines love bad writing, and are quick to cite Graham McNeill's books, which are the worst Ultramarines writing ever done. I explained the reality of the 5th Edition Codex wording. You can refuse to accept the truth, but we're back to irrationality. The bottom line is, when compared to the overblown superman-like Special Characters of other codex books, the Ultramarines are on par and certainly not comparatively overdone, and the "spiritual liege" line makes perfect sense when you understand what it refers to. Any other belief is bias talking, not rationality.

It's definitely straight jealousy. Most complaints are about the Ultramarines being described as "the greatest of all Space Marine Chapters". If you dislike that piece of established canon, then it is because you disagree with that statement. However, disagreement with that statement is impossible to support with evidence, since you will always be trumped by the fact that the Ultramarines are "The greatest of Space Marine Chapters". Thus, any belief to the contrary is... you guess it, irrational. And why would they want to disagree with that statement? Because they feel that the honor of "greatest of the Space Marine Chapters: should go to another Chapter, obviously one that they prefer. I mean, we can play semantics and give it a name other than jealousy, but we're just masking the greater truth.

There's no logical way to hate the Ultramarines. There just isn't. They are everything that is awesome about Space Marines, so by default they are pretty cool. They may not be as individually exciting as other chapters to some people (I addressed the classic idea of them as "vanilla" or "boring"). But being bland really isn't a reason to hate them. Like every Chapter described in-depth by GW, they've had their ups and downs, wins and losses. The argument that they are described as "too good" or "too perfect" is just categorically untrue. If anything, thanks to Graham McNeill, they've been crapped on more than any other chapter, lol. No other chapter has been repeatedly called stupid in their own series of novels.