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What? How? What?

Sorry I think highly of McNeill for his work with the Ultramarines. He puts them in their place. "The Chapter's Due" Is a great example in my eyes as it shows the limits (read stupidity) of the Codex Astrates, makes some of the superior special characters actually human like with weaknesses (making them to be better characters because they have flaws) and gave credit to other chapters where credit was due like the Raven Guard.


I mean I guess everyone has their own opinion. Just so weird to me.

I was actually hoping not to discuss that, as that’s not quite on topic, but I’ll support my opinions.

We don't know what is in the Codex Astartes. What we know is that the Ultramarines have been strictly following its tenets for the past 10,000 years. And we know that the Ultramarines are one of the (if not the) most successful Chapters for the past 10,000 years.

From this I would conclude that there is perhaps a correlation, and that what the Codex suggests has its merit. There is also the fact that the Codex includes doctrines of not just one but several Primarchs, compiled and collected by one Primarch who had a thing for studying such things. That would support my conclusion, I would say.

The other point of view is that the Codex will sometimes tell you to do things wrong. That would kind of mean that the Ultramarines have been so successful inspite of their strict adherence to the Codex, and not because of it. It would also mean that often times, a Space Marine commander is smarter than a Primarch.

And I am very dismayed by the notion that the codex practices in the cases of Uriels breaches would supposedly not have led to victory. How did the Ultramarines even survive that long if they cling to the teachings of a dusty old book detached from actual battlefield practices and apparently unviable in a lot of situations? It is an inconsistent handling of Ultramarine background.

I have no problem with the notion that the Codex Astartes cannot tell you everything. It would be implausible to expect that. No situation will be like a previous one 100%, so most battle descriptions in the Codex Astartes can only give examples and make suggestions, but they cannot tell you how to conduct an entire planetary campaign from step one to the final blow, based on the exact situation and enemy dispositions you are dealing with. Unfortunately, the latter is exactly how Graham McNeill describes the Codex to work in "Rules of Engagement".

I have not served. But when a supposed military genius writes doctrines in a manner so that they would make strict suggestions even in situations where the conditions might be completely different, then that is just not plausible to me. If the Chapter strictly adhering to such a restrictive set of rules can be one of the most successfull Chapters for ten thousand years, then that is just nor plausible to me. McNeill's Codex Astartes is not just bad because it conflicts with other descriptions of the Codex and it's value, it is bad because the concept he describes is not the least bit plausible. That mission parameters might change and then need a different approach is basic stuff.

Virtually all of his examples where the Codex fails are terribly contrived.

EDIT: Make it easier to understand.

Brother Coa wrote:Ultramarines are best i one regard: they are the most civil and tactical Marines in the Imeperium.

Well, actually the Alpha Legion are in the Imperium right now, and their tactics consistently beat the Ultramarines.

Durza wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Ultramarines are best i one regard: they are the most civil and tactical Marines in the Imeperium.

Well, actually the Alpha Legion are in the Imperium right now, and their tactics consistently beat the Ultramarines.

Note quite accurate at all, considering the only main battle they fought the Ultramarines against was noted by the article itself to be possible a piece of Alpha Legion propaganda.

But whatever the Alpha Legion were ten thousand years ago, at least some of them are definite Chaos Marines, such as Voldorius, summoning daemons, bearing chaos mutations and killing loyalist Imperial servants.

Gree wrote:

Durza wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Ultramarines are best i one regard: they are the most civil and tactical Marines in the Imeperium.

Well, actually the Alpha Legion are in the Imperium right now, and their tactics consistently beat the Ultramarines.

Note quite accurate at all, considering the main battle they fought in was noted by the article itself to be possible a piece of Alpha Legion propaganda.

A piece of propaganda which they won

Durza wrote:

Gree wrote:

Durza wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Ultramarines are best i one regard: they are the most civil and tactical Marines in the Imeperium.

Well, actually the Alpha Legion are in the Imperium right now, and their tactics consistently beat the Ultramarines.

Note quite accurate at all, considering the main battle they fought in was noted by the article itself to be possible a piece of Alpha Legion propaganda.

A piece of propaganda which they won

Well, that’s the point of propaganda, to portray your side as best. Except it’s questioned by many in the Inquisition and the Imperium.

Gree wrote:

Durza wrote:

Gree wrote:

Durza wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Ultramarines are best i one regard: they are the most civil and tactical Marines in the Imeperium.

Well, actually the Alpha Legion are in the Imperium right now, and their tactics consistently beat the Ultramarines.

Note quite accurate at all, considering the main battle they fought in was noted by the article itself to be possible a piece of Alpha Legion propaganda.

A piece of propaganda which they won

Well, that’s the point of propaganda, to portray your side as best. Except it’s questioned by many in the Inquisition and the Imperium.

No, the death of Alpharius in the battle is questioned by everyone, including the Ultramarines. The battle itself was a decisive victory for the Legion.

Durza wrote:

Gree wrote:

Durza wrote:

Gree wrote:

Durza wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Ultramarines are best i one regard: they are the most civil and tactical Marines in the Imeperium.

Well, actually the Alpha Legion are in the Imperium right now, and their tactics consistently beat the Ultramarines.

Note quite accurate at all, considering the main battle they fought in was noted by the article itself to be possible a piece of Alpha Legion propaganda.

A piece of propaganda which they won

Well, that’s the point of propaganda, to portray your side as best. Except it’s questioned by many in the Inquisition and the Imperium.

No, the death of Alpharius in the battle is questioned by everyone, including the Ultramarines. The battle itself was a decisive victory for the Legion.

The entire battle was noted to be questioned. In fact right at the start of the article we have this:

Following the Horus Heresy, thousands of records, archives and libraries were destroyed to purge ad mention, indeed any memory, of the traitors. Ten millennia later there are now billions of Imperial citizens who remain unaware that the rebellion ever happened. However, a few tomes survived, mostly in the hands of those in high authority or heretics whose loyalties still remained undiscovered. It is from these works that historians and Inquisitors have gleaned their knowledge of those ancient times. Of course, shifting out the truth is never easy, because most books are copies of copies or simply forgeries filled with lies.
In the case of the Alpha Legion, reliable facts are even harder to come by, as the legion was notoriously secretive. For example - unlike most of the First Founding Legions of the Adeptus Astartes, the Alpha Legion's home world is unknown. The reason for this omission is unclear, but Inquisitor Kravin of the Ordo Malleus has recently unearthed an ancient journal that he claims provides an account of the first contact with, and recovery of, the legions' Primarch. Kravin has estimated the veracity of this journal at 62.6%, but has so far refused to produce it for independent examination.

-IA Alpha Legion

Kravin was later accused of being an Alpha Legion agent. But one of the key themes of the Alpha Legion is that everything about the Legion is wrapped in doubt and mystery.

... except that battle was reported by the Ultramarines to the Imperium, not the Alpha Legion. The mystery is whether that it was indeed Alpharius who died. The battle itself definitely happened, and the Alpha Legion definitely won, despite their losses.

Durza wrote:... except that battle was reported by the Ultramarines to the Imperium, not the Alpha Legion. The mystery is whether that it was indeed Alpharius who died. The battle itself definitely happened, and the Alpha Legion definitely won, despite their losses.

No they did not report it. It was stated some sort of battle happened, but the actual account was given by Kravin, the suspected Alpha Legion agent.

The following account appears to be the personal log of a member of the Ultramarines strike force, probably a sergeant. It is included in Inquisitor Kravin's diatribe 'Lessons of Strife', though other Inquisitors and representatives of the Ultramarines themselves have questioned its validity. The original document was purportedly discovered in a system earth-ward of Eskrador.

It then goes on to describe the actual battle and the tactics involved.

At which Guilliman was present. The account of the battle may be flawed, but there's no denying that it happened, and Guilliman would have said something about it if there was an inquisitor claiming he lost a battle that he actually won.

Durza wrote:At which Guilliman was present. The account of the battle may be flawed, but there's no denying that it happened, and Guilliman would have said something about it if there was an inquisitor claiming he lost a battle that he actually won.

No, which Guilliman was supposedly present at. You forget the context of the investigation. The Index Astartes article is about a bunch of Inquisitors in the modern day Imperium investigating a battle that allegedly happened ten thousand years ago. Guilliman is in the stasis field and his sons and questioning the entire account of the battle, not just Alpharius's death.

Maybe the Alpha Legion did fight the Ultramarines then. But that does not necessarily mean they won or the battle happened anyway like it was described.

And a single, murky battle does not qualify as ‘’consistently beating’’ the Ultramarines.

Galdos wrote:What? How? What?

Sorry I think highly of McNeill for his work with the Ultramarines. He puts them in their place. "The Chapter's Due" Is a great example in my eyes as it shows the limits (read stupidity) of the Codex Astrates, makes some of the superior special characters actually human like with weaknesses (making them to be better characters because they have flaws) and gave credit to other chapters where credit was due like the Raven Guard.


I mean I guess everyone has their own opinion. Just so weird to me.

McNeill doens't "put them in their place" or "show the limits of the Codex Astartes". He just writes bad books about the Ultramarines. His descriptions of the Codex are very poorly researched, and make no sense. The Codex Astartes isn't an "If A, then B" instruction manual for warfighting that would allow enemies to predict what opposing commanders would do. It's a stupid idea created by an author who didn't do enough research into existing tomes of military strategy and theory to create a viable and believable counterpart in the 40K universe.

I only hate the silly name of their planet.

Fortunately I've collected all of my past replies on this kind of topic. So here it is: "The True Reasons Some People Hate the Ultramarines"

Like I've explained in other post on other 40K forums in the past, the Ultramarines hate has been amusing to watch evolve, coming from a player whose earliest experiences with the game come from the Rogue Trader era rules in the early nineties. Years ago, in the long long ago of 40K, they were just called "boring". They were boring because their 2nd Edition list wasn't rife with fancy special units and overpowered special characters like the Space Wolves or Blood Angels (or heck, any of the increasingly over-powered codexes that came out like the original Codex: Chaos which allowed you to create Chaos Lords of all four Chaos Gods with a Weapon Skill of 10, lol).

Then people hated them because Games Workshop chose to make the Ultramarines their default, flagship chapter. Games Workshop chose them for a few reasons. There was a "Big Four" in 40K at the time. Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Ultramarines. Out of those four, the Ultramarines were the only ones that didn't need any additional explanation. If you know what a Marine is in the real world, then you can imagine them 38,000 years in the future, and the Ultramarines look kinda like what you'd expect. No need to explain why they look like furry space vikings with fangs. No need to explain why they wear hoodie bathrobes and act emo. No need to explain why they have fangs and drink blood. The Ultramarines are just big dudes in big armor with big guns. However, because the Ultramarines were "boring", and the more vocal 40K players are, as a general rule, a rather unmanly and nerdy sort, prone to a sort of jealousy when their favorite color of plastic toy soldiers aren't given their due attention, the hate began to brew against the blue ones. But it was still mostly due to the idea that they were "boring" and "why not my favorite color of toy soldier?" feelings.

The 5th Edition didn't really help. Matt Ward and crew took a bunch of stories about the Ultramarines that already existed, wrote a couple new ones (none of which are any sillier than those written for other factions), and then finally explained why Rick Priestley had called the Ultramarines the "greatest of all Space Marine Chapters" (Back Cover, Codex: Ultramarines, 1995). The whole "spiritual liege" actually makes sense, when you realize it only refers to the Codex Chapters descended from the Ultramarines. More than sixty percent of Space Marine chapters are descended from the Ultramarines. Either directly, as is the case with the 250 or so Second Founding Ultra successors, or because they were made using the Ultramarines gene seed because it is the least flawed, and the most often used when creating new chapters. All of those chapters are descended from the Ultramarines, and the closest thing they have to a Primarch would be Guilliman, and if they are going to look to their heritage and take pride in the actions of Space Marines of the past, then the Ultramarines are the ones they are closest akin to. In the case of the Second Founding chapters, their first Marines actually were Ultramarines during the Great Crusade and Scouring, so it makes perfect sense that they might consider themselves Ultramarines in all but name.

The whole line about "they can never be Ultramarines" is a bit over the top and referred to the other Codex Chapters descended from other than Ultramarines stock. However, the "spiritual liege" portion only ever applied to the Codex Chapters directly descended from the Ultramarines. This part gets lost in the nerd raging. It never referred to the Imperial Fists, Salamanders, etc. It merely said that those chapters recognize the wisdom and value of the Codex Astartes and admire Guilliman's work. But, again, when you have misdirected nerd rage like that which typically is reserved for the Ultramarines, facts are irrelevant.

Anyway, take that bit of wisdom from an old 40K player who has watched the game evolve for almost 20 years. My Space Marines have been several different colors. Black, and then dark blue, and then red, and back to blue. I have no real bias towards the Ultramarines. I look at a group of Marines who would be the absolute top of their game, guided by this tome of military knowledge and wisdom that is like combining Sun Tzu and Clausewitz and all the other military geniuses of history rolled into one, and that seems pretty cool. I don't subscribe to the silly and idiotic "If A, Then B" instruction manual like McNeil scribbled about in his messy Ultramarines series of books because it doesn't make any damned sense. But, then again, I was a Marine in real life, so a lot of the strategy and tactics written by the Black Library "authors" seems a bit silly to me.

Further on to the concept of the Codex Astartes (or: "Why Graham McNeill writes terrible books about the Ultramarines"):

To beat a general steeped in the Codex, you'd need to know the Codex yourself. You'd need to know a counter strategy for the maneuver you felt they were going to use, and yet the Codex would have notations in it to predict, detect, and deal with that counter strategy. That's why it can't possibly lend itself to predictability, because it has hundreds of pages on every possible scenario. The better commander will win because he applies what he knows of warfare to the forces, terrain, environment, and enemy at hand. There's just no way the Codex would just have a list of instructions for every possible configuration of those variables. To beat a Space Marine Commander using the Codex, you'd have to be... a master of the Codex yourself, lol. There's been suggestion that it's silly to write a book about fighting wars, because then your opponent could read it. Guess what, all that knowledge is out there today too. Reading the Sun Tzu, Clausewitz, contemporary warfighting pubs, etc doesn't make you a master of warfare. You have to be able to understand it and apply it in battle still. The Codex does not give the general a formula for winning battles, only the kinds of advice, wisdom, and collected experience to use when making their own decisions. The general still wins the battle by out thinking his opponent. Alpharius believed that knowing the Codex would allow him to easily predict the Ultramarines' maneuvers, and it cost him his life (most likely) when Guilliman surprised him. The Codex is definitely one of the most misunderstood things about the 40K universe. But if you don't get it, don't feel bad, you're game players, not military strategists. Even Graham McNeill, writer of Ultramarines novels, doesn't understand how it would work, lol. It has many parts. It lays down not just strategy and tactics, but also organizational elements, most notably the breakdown of chapters and companies, but also other mundane stuff like recruitment, indoctrination, training regimens, iconography, etc. The parts of the Codex that Russ railed against were the organizational parts. He didn't want to split his legion up. It wasn't like he was such an idiot he said "I'm going to ignore all of this collected military strategy!" It was similar to the others who were initially reluctant to follow the Codex's tenets. Realize that being "Codex adherent", or "following the Codex" means following the logistical breakdown of the chapter and company structure. Not being a Codex Chapter doesn't mean that the chapter also ignores the military teachings.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Crusader wrote:Codex: Space Marines isn't that, Its Codex: ULTRASMURFS!!!!

Well, let's be realistic here. Codex: Space Marines has always been Codex: Ultramarines, dating back to 1993 when it was actually called Codex: Ultramarines. GW changed the name to Codex: Space Marines in 3rd Edition for marketing reasons because when it was called Codex: Ultramarines new players didn't always know what codex to buy to play "regular" Space Marines.

However, the painting articles in C:SM have always been how to paint Ultramarines (heck, the painting article in the 4th Edition Codex was actually titled "How to Paint Ultramarines" lol), and the Ultramarines have always had the preponderance of Special Characters in those books, long before Mat Ward touched them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, the most amusing part of the whole Ultramarines hate is that in C:SM:3E, it actually contains a small fluff story about Calgar and the Ultramarines that pokes fun of the neckbeard 40K players for hating them.

"But fame and glory ever begets jealousy, and these heroic tales... have earned him and his brethren many high ranking enemies".

Even the authors over at GW make fun at people who irrationally hate the Ultramarines.

Normally, tl;dr.
But I now have a newfound respect for the Ultramarines. While I would not play them myself, I do see the appeal of playing them to some degree.
I'm still biased towards xenos though

I think it's mostly to do with the fact that, as stated, fluff tends to say they're the best, that they're the poster boys so the younglings collect them and so tend to be associated with naive 12+ year olds, and that they're simply too common a sight for some people.

I personally don't have a problem with the players or the models, it's the fluff and the attitude of the player that annoys me.
Ultramarines are the generic, good at everything best at nothing chapter, not best at everything. And the 4ft, high pitched thing proclaiming that marneus calgar could destroy anything and everything if he wanted bugs me as well.
/rant

Brother Coa wrote:Several reasons:

-They are stupidly overpowered and most Space Marine fluff is going toward them, totally ignoring other Chapters and their battles.
-They miss some of the most important events in the galaxy because their empire is situated on the other side of the galaxy ( Vandire's war, Armageddon War, Black Crusades, Badab War... )
-Their major characters are OP as hell ( Calgar being able to beat Avatar of Khaine in close combat with one punch and Varro Tigurius rumored to be able to tap to Hive Mind ).
-They are always taking credit after winning battle, especially from Imperial Guard.
-The most important reason why they are hated is breaking down Legions into Chapters. Space Wolves, Imperial Fists and others would never forget them doing that.
-In most resent times they are hated because of Matt Ward and his: "They are so awesome that every other Marine in the galaxy want's to be Ultramarine".

Somebody's been reading too much 1d4chan and taking it seriously.

I mean, really? Hating the Ultramarines for not taking part in every battle ever mentioned in 40K? And then at the same time hating them for saying that they are mentioned in too many battles? You do understand how stupid that sounds right?

And the stories about Calgar are no sillier than the ones about, say, Mephiston, or other SM characters. Special Characters are supposed to be a little absurd at times. All Space Marines take credit after winning battles over the Guard. Or do they? That seems to be something made up by the Imperial Guard, not ever actually mentioned in any fluff.

This is the best reply to UM hate that I have seen.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Somebody's been reading too much 1d4chan and taking it seriously.

I mean, really? Hating the Ultramarines for not taking part in every battle ever mentioned in 40K? And then at the same time hating them for saying that they are mentioned in too many battles? You do understand how stupid that sounds right?

And the stories about Calgar are no sillier than the ones about, say, Mephiston, or other SM characters. Special Characters are supposed to be a little absurd at times. All Space Marines take credit after winning battles over the Guard. Or do they? That seems to be something made up by the Imperial Guard, not ever actually mentioned in any fluff.

I do not hate Ultramarines, they are my 3'rd favorite Chapter after Blood Ravens and Black Templars. ( see below my name )
I am just listed the responses from my friends why they hate Ultramarines.

And we need more guys like Gree, who will defend this chapter and stay with him in this dire times for them.

JeneralJoe117 wrote:

Warrior Squirrel wrote:Ultramarines are to perfect. They are portrayed as the perfect chapter without faults. And that almost all Ultramarines are boring as feth. Just look at Captain Titus and Uriel. Boring souless mommies boys.

Maybe this is my inner child pulling my head gravy around, but that's precisely what I like about them. I want my futuristic and perfect space men to be perfect. I don't want them to have flaws, I don't want them to be wolves in armour, or vampires. The shades-of-grey imperfections are for the Inquisition. At least in my mind. I collect Ultramarines for that reason, religious nutters al a BT, but civilised.

I meant that that they are boring. They have no story exept being perfect, they have no personality exept being perfect. Every single Ultramarine is the same.

Gree wrote:
We don't know what is in the Codex Astartes. What we know is that the Ultramarines have been strictly following its tenets for the past 10,000 years. And we know that the Ultramarines are one of the (if not the) most successful Chapters for the past 10,000 years.

HAHA, no. The Black Templars Outnumber them 6+:1 We also have a larger fleet, we aren't rooted to a single position that doesn't move much (our fortress monestry is on the Eternal Crusader) The Salamders interact more and are generally more empathetic to the Human race. You find me a Ultra smurf chaplain that held a Hive for 30+ days against a Ork horde that "Stretched out to the horizon" with titans, made an Imperator Titan stand and fight, then rescuing said titan after leaping from a thunderhawk. Then fighting off an ork horde in CQB before being crushed by a cathederal. THEN CLAWING HIS WAY OUT BECAUSE HE DIDN'T FEEL LIKE DYING YET!

Didn't think so. If you doubt that a single chaplain did that read Helsreach.

The Crusader wrote:

Gree wrote:
We don't know what is in the Codex Astartes. What we know is that the Ultramarines have been strictly following its tenets for the past 10,000 years. And we know that the Ultramarines are one of the (if not the) most successful Chapters for the past 10,000 years.

HAHA, no. The Black Templars Outnumber them 6+:1 We also have a larger fleet, we aren't rooted to a single position that doesn't move much (our fortress monestry is on the Eternal Crusader) The Salamders interact more and are generally more empathetic to the Human race. You find me a Ultra smurf chaplain that held a Hive for 30+ days against a Ork horde that "Stretched out to the horizon" with titans, made an Imperator Titan stand and fight, then rescuing said titan after leaping from a thunderhawk. Then fighting off an ork horde in CQB before being crushed by a cathederal. THEN CLAWING HIS WAY OUT BECAUSE HE DIDN'T FEEL LIKE DYING YET!

Didn't think so. If you doubt that a single chaplain did that read Helsreach.

MY MEHREENS ARE BETTERER THAN YOUR MEHREENS!!!111!!!0
The Black Templars are only as big as they are due to Dorn's shifty shiftiness when it came to dividing his Legion up, and cannot be counted as a "success" as much as it can a violation of Imperial law.
Furthermore, the individual achievements of characters are hardly something to measure the success of an entire chapter on, and as the Ultras have more or less remained intact as a chapter despite the immense gak hurled at them, I'd say they were certainly one of the more tenacious chapters in the Imperium. Their battle achievements are the equal of most of the other chapters, and they've managed it whilst sticking to Guilleman's Highway Code.
Also, "We have a larger fleet?" "We aren't rooted to a single position?"
Are you a Black Templar now? Did you undergo SM training and modification, is that it?
Ultimately, there isn't all that much wrong with the Ultramarines, except for some misplaced ideas that because they're the most prevalent SM chapter on GW's products, they should be hated.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
Are you a Black Templar now? Did you undergo SM training and modification, is that it?
Ultimately, there isn't all that much wrong with the Ultramarines, except for some misplaced ideas that because they're the most prevalent SM chapter on GW's products, they should be hated.

That and because "they are the greatest Space Marines in the Imperium".

Brother Coa wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
Are you a Black Templar now? Did you undergo SM training and modification, is that it?
Ultimately, there isn't all that much wrong with the Ultramarines, except for some misplaced ideas that because they're the most prevalent SM chapter on GW's products, they should be hated.

That and because "they are the greatest Space Marines in the Imperium".

Dude, sit down and read Codex: SW sometime. It'll put your complaints into perspective, and I say that as a confirmed fan of the Wolves.
40K is, by it's nature, over-the-top and daft as hell. That's the norm here.

Whoever hates on the Ultramarines, know that they will be hunted down and slaughtered before they can spread the taint right? right?

Galdos wrote:What? How? What?

Sorry I think highly of McNeill for his work with the Ultramarines. He puts them in their place. "The Chapter's Due" Is a great example in my eyes as it shows the limits (read stupidity) of the Codex Astrates, makes some of the superior special characters actually human like with weaknesses (making them to be better characters because they have flaws) and gave credit to other chapters where credit was due like the Raven Guard.


I mean I guess everyone has their own opinion. Just so weird to me.

I love that book precisely for that reason ^^
My beloved raven guard are ninjas in that book- a captain, sergeant and techmarine snuck up on telion without really trying, can sneak up on scouts and can scale a chaos fortress and take out the guards without detection even from allied forces, can climb a 1-2 hundred foot tall basilica and blow it up, can avoid detection from ultramarine scanners at will, and Marneus Calgar sticks to the codex astartes and is blinded by anger and pride that he loses his flagship in a space battle and nearly dies, along with most of the 1st company and Tigirius.

[

The Crusader wrote:

HAHA, no. The Black Templars Outnumber them 6+:1 We also have a larger fleet, we aren't rooted to a single position that doesn't move much (our fortress monestry is on the Eternal Crusader)

None of that matters when it comes to success or a combat record. Like it or not the Ultramairnes are stated to be one of the most successful and famous chapters in the Imperium.

The Crusader wrote:
find me a Ultra smurf chaplain that held a Hive for 30+ days against a Ork horde that "Stretched out to the horizon" with titans, made an Imperator Titan stand and fight, then rescuing said titan after leaping from a thunderhawk. Then fighting off an ork horde in CQB before being crushed by a cathederal. THEN CLAWING HIS WAY OUT BECAUSE HE DIDN'T FEEL LIKE DYING YET!

Didn't think so. If you doubt that a single chaplain did that read Helsreach.

I can find a Chapter Master that slew an Eldar God of War, but that’s not quite what happened in Helsreach. In fact the Grimaldous kinda lost his entire team in the end.

But that's not the point. But I am not necessarily saying they are the most successful chapter in ten thousand years. (Such a thing would be hard to measure.) but what is undeniable is that they are a highly successful and honored Chapter.

I can find a captain who walked up to an iron warriors fortress, climbed up it, eliminated the guards with near-perfect synchrony along with his squad, then went back to the ultramarine scouts looking at the fortress and spoke to them without them knowing what the hell happened. Later, he then climbed the black basillica, assassinated the traitor techpriest, blew up entire enemy mechanicum, pretty much walked out the front door, took out a few squads of iron warriors, escaped thier fortress, and headed home with a prisoner of war.

not as badass as the black templar's story, but much more subtle and requiring much less brute force.

But yes, the ultramarines are one of the most successful chapters, wrote the space marine's guide to waging wars and stick to it no matter what and survived. Though they are (IMO) too over-presented in terms of fluff, special characters and on the boxes*, they are a fairly respectable chapter.

*I think it'd be better if they showed models on the boxes depending on the squad, e.g terminators should be imperial fists, assault marines/scouts should be raven guard, tactical marines should be ultramarines, bikers should be white scars, etc.

*never mind*