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So between this and the last codex, Eldar have gotten significantly harder to use (though they were fairly difficult to use before). So pretty much I've gone from being able to use my eldar, to not really being able to do anything positive with them. My question to you, Eldar playing dakkaites, is what are some tactics and setups you use with your Eldar lists that seem to work? What are some semi competitive and competitive lists and units? I have a general scope, but it seems something always leads to my demise, so perhaps you could help?

Well, I play Eldar since the 3rd ed and it is still competitive.
However, in the 5th ed, there are some glaring weaknesses:
1. Skimmer nerfing,
2. random game length,
3. low toughness troops.

Nevertheless, mech Eldar can still work. If the enemy is very shooty, you could leave the army in reserve and play on your strength.
Recently, I battled SW and Nids and both lost big against my mech Eldar force.

Well if you want to be really un-original you could always go for 3 units of 5 dragons in WS's 3 Prisms 2 Doom/Guide Seers and as many squads of Blade storming DA's in WS's as you can afford. Or sink 500 points into a Guide/Fortune/Doom Jetcouncil.

Unfortunatly many edar units are really dissapointing atm; Banshees suffer from not being able to assault out of vehicles, too many Heavy support options and not enough good choice in fast attack. Fire dragons being too good not to take chokes every other elite out of use. Basically you need transports.

I second Gorechild

I have a friend who used almost nothing except Fire Dragons in WS's and Fire Prisms

He did a good job of popping the majority of the field

As a long-time Eldar player my opinion (though many would disagree) is that there are really only 3 competitive builds within the Eldar Codex any more. This is merely a result of our codex being out of context with the current incarnation of the game and will surely change whenever we get a new updated 5th ed codex. (Some people will argue that our codex IS a 5th ed codex but if you look at GW’s development timeline, it definitely is NOT. The Warp Spider exarch power Surprise Assault is pretty clear evidence of that as well).

Anyway, the first competitive build I will mention is pure mechanized or majority mechanized with fast auxiliaries. Wave Serpents are really good transports despite being slightly overpriced and piloted by the Craftworld bridge club. What’s more, they’re ideally suited to the current melta-heavy meta-game. Create a balanced force, put them in 5 to 7 Wave Serpents with Spirit Stones, and rejoice as your opponent cries about how “Eldar are so broken with those stupid transports.” I particularly enjoy a mounted Fortunseer + 9 warlocks + 1 enhance + 1 embolden for a nasty CC unit that can fleet into close combat. Some people like to slap 5 dire avengers in a Wave Serpent and use it as a fast scoring vehicle.

The second competitive build is just a pain to build – jetlock council. Model a farseer on a jetbike and put him with a bunch of warlocks on bikes and roll up your opponent. This is, in my opinion, the only true “Death Star” unit we have and I consider it one of the better ones in the game. Of course you’ll want to keep it supported with other fast-moving or long range things (vipers, mounted infantry, scatter-laser walkers, etc.) but, like all “Death Star” builds, every game is made or broken on the back of your Jetlock council.

The third competitive build I consider to be the least competitive but still viable – Eldarzilla. An Avatar and 3 Wraithlords backed up by some mounted units makes a nice “hammer/anvil” army. This build has, in my opinion, fallen slightly out of vogue with the rise of some of the close combat monstrosities out there (TWC, nob bikers, THSS terminators) but can work if you speed-bump properly.

These are all my opinions, and some may disagree, but I hope it helps.

Incarna summed up eldar builds really well. Except for this.

incarna wrote:The second competitive build is just a pain to build – jetlock council.

You can put the metal farseer and warlock models on the guardians support platforms with a bike base. (while not as cool looking it works)

I still play Eldar to great success. I have used the Dire Avenger and Fire Dragon aspects for a long time so the advantages really suit me.

But I do use lots of units that are supposedly not good to use. With Eldar it is really getting to know your army well and being flexible.

I usually include 3 units of Dire Avengers with Bladestorm and the exarch with 2 cats.

I run from 1-3 full Firedragon squads and give the exarch the flamer and crackshot. They go in a serpent of course.

I take at least one unit of warwalkers. Usually 3 with scatter lasers.

After that core I play with everything. I had doom weaver artillery out a few days ago. I use Harlies, the Avatar often, a regular farseer (Eldrad and Yriel in 'ardboyz cause they rock). I love pathfinders and always include at least 5 and as many as 20. I have used Dark Reapers to great effect, that 48" range is nothing to sneeze at, and have had a string of luck with outflanking scorpions recently. Now my opponents stay off the flanks. I like a warping autarch too with a fusion gun. They are nice.

I never have more than 4 serps in the army and rarely have any other vehicles than those.

You can pretty much chose what looks good to you and make it effective as mathhammer can't account for the synergy of your army and play style. The math is great for knowing which units need to work together to get things done.

The only real issue I see in this edition is that assault is tremendously lacking over all and thus I almost always do a shooting army. But I prefer elite shooters to most everything else anyway. Thats my $.02.

Since I started playing again in late May my record is 11-0 with the space elves so, just getting to know them makes all the difference.

This is all good so far. I'm really hating to say this but I think my generalship is highly at fault here as well. Making poor decisions (plus my horrid luck with rolling a die unless it's a cover save) is what kills me I think. I play against some tough opponents plus the fact that they make some ridiculously overpowered lists because they can.

As it has been said, Eldar just can't really make an overpowered list like most armies can, and that's where the learning curve has hit me hard.

-------

So, onto some tactic type stuff I do, C & C needed.

I always have a farseer, sometimes two, no matter what. It's IMO the best HQ we can have (barring named characters) and is relatively cheap for what he does. I had a game recently against BA with Mephiston where he suffered two perils of the warp in one turn, he didn't even try to cast anything the next turn.

I haven't used fire dragons too much recently, which I think I need to start using them again, but I'm not sure exactly how to I guess. Take 6, no exarch and put them in a bare bones WS, maybe star engines, and just rush the enemy line turn one, unload and shoot turn two? Or do I need to skirt around some things, get close but stay in some cover on turn one, then just do a quick 21 inch move, get out, shoot kind of thing?

As for Dire Avengers, these are relatively simple to use IMO. It's usually move the WS around the unit so they can hop out and use the WS for cover from the other opposing units, and shoot at a unit that has usually no more than half the amount of shots I'm going to put out. The DA are usually at least 16 inches from the unit they're shooting at so they don't get assaulted. I only do that if possible. If I know I'm going to kill every model I shoot at, then I'll get a bit closer. Also, what about shimmer shield power weapon defend? Is it viable to take these?

I have warwalkers I need to put together, but I haven't played with current edition warwalkers. I rememeber the 3rd edition codex warwalkers being amazing, but you cannot take holofields and 3 shot star cannons anymore. I know general tactics with them and I know they can really shine depending on the role you take them for. More to come on them.

Wraithlords are pretty simple, I usually use them to hang back for some AT with a BL EML setup.

Howling Banshees... a unit of power weapons with strength 3. Should be fairly easy, but somehow I always bite off more than I can chew and that S3 hurts me in the process. What are some guidelines with what and what not to do with these?

Pathfinders, love them to death, they're really good for what they do and fairly cheap to use. I've had really good games with them and really bad games with them, it usually comes down to where I deploy them. I've had them take out 5 times worth their points in some games, but once again it's all in deployment.

Fire Prisms, I've proxied them a few times recently and I'm in love with them. I'm not sure how to kit them though. Should I take holofields and stones as a priority or take holofields only when I have the points?

The avatar is a beast in general, and as an eldar character he's just god. However, he doesn't really fit into most lists I try to make because he's so slow compared to everyone else. I do love when people try to melta/ flamer him without knowing though, that was a fun game.

Well, that's all I have for now, C & C needed.

One of my friends play's eldar, and Ill tell you what gives me a hard time.

Doom
This ability on a squad of my marines changes the odds of a shuriken cat from wounding a marine from 1/2 to 3/4. That's a huge increase in effectiveness.

Fire Dragons
These can pop down and burn down one of my marine squads if I placed them poorly. They are also annoyingly good at destroying my vehicles.

Seer Council
These can bog down my troops for many turns, and often will wipe out my army given enough time. With fortune they can be a very tough nut to crack. They are vulnerable to Null Zone and heavy small arms fire.

The Bloody Handed God wrote:This is all good so far. I'm really hating to say this but I think my generalship is highly at fault here as well. Making poor decisions (plus my horrid luck with rolling a die unless it's a cover save) is what kills me I think. I play against some tough opponents plus the fact that they make some ridiculously overpowered lists because they can.

OP is a discussion in itself. No list is OP, and no army can be invulnerable to everything. Expensive units are expensive, hit them in the face with something cheap... and do it a bunch of times.

As it has been said, Eldar just can't really make an overpowered list like most armies can, and that's where the learning curve has hit me hard.

Problems arise when you meta-game against a single army, but if you are constantly having problems with it, you might consider just kicking the crap out of that one army. It isn't particularly hard to counter what you expect, while it can be very difficult to counter everything, because you have no idea what to expect. I'll see if I can clarify this throughout the rest of my post.

I always have a farseer, sometimes two, no matter what. It's IMO the best HQ we can have (barring named characters) and is relatively cheap for what he does. I had a game recently against BA with Mephiston where he suffered two perils of the warp in one turn, he didn't even try to cast anything the next turn.

Best HQ option for eldar; take the time to really study how you can most effectively make use of their various powers. Doom and Fortune, as a rule of thumb, are the best powers to take. Spirit stones are essential for any farseer with multiple powers, and for that reason I prefer to keep them cheap and focused instead of grabbing two powers. Eldrad can bring 3 powers, and generally is a better way to get multiple powers onto the field at once.

Farseer are flexible and act as a pure buff unit. Mind war is an often underestimated power, but works best through Eldrad; annoying melta or PF, just pop that fool. E. storm is meh, really... not a very practical power. Guide is a great way to make full use of mass S. lasers, namely on WW; in most other situations, it really isn't a good power to bring with you.

I haven't used fire dragons too much recently, which I think I need to start using them again, but I'm not sure exactly how to I guess. Take 6, no exarch and put them in a bare bones WS, maybe star engines, and just rush the enemy line turn one, unload and shoot turn two? Or do I need to skirt around some things, get close but stay in some cover on turn one, then just do a quick 21 inch move, get out, shoot kind of thing?

Take 5 FD in a WS w/ Sc, keep them simple and focused. Going after the bigger tanks is what they excel at (AV13+), but you can block a lane from transports, simply by placing your FD in an advantageous position. Short of a heavy flamer, there aren't many ways to weed them out of cover once they have been dropped off by a transport. Most people will suggest making them nothing less than kamikaze units, but a 180 point squad (counting the tank) is better not wasted taking out one enemy transport. If that transport is a LR, and you just took out all substantial mobility from a squad of assault termies, then they did their job.

Making use of cover, can keep them around for two turns. Meltas on the field are better than no meltas at all, imo. If you can take out something big it doesn't really matter at that point, because the squad has already done it's job. 40-50 point transports are not a good thing to kamikaze a WS/FD squad for.

FD exarch are pretty cool, but avoiding the relatively pointless firepike is a pretty good idea. If the firepike was nothing less than a multi-melta, it would be worth the points. Alternatively, it could have both a melta-rifle (9" melta range) and a standard flamer shot, or be used as a S4 PW in a turn that you don't fire it. None of that is the case now, so the firepike is just a hokey waste of points.

As for Dire Avengers, these are relatively simple to use IMO. It's usually move the WS around the unit so they can hop out and use the WS for cover from the other opposing units, and shoot at a unit that has usually no more than half the amount of shots I'm going to put out. The DA are usually at least 16 inches from the unit they're shooting at so they don't get assaulted. I only do that if possible. If I know I'm going to kill every model I shoot at, then I'll get a bit closer. Also, what about shimmer shield power weapon defend? Is it viable to take these?

SS/Defend is a pretty fantastic combo to take on swarms with. Dire avengers may not be particularly amazing in offensive assault (borderline crap, really), but taking the charge from Ork boys can outright win you combat in many situations. DA will have a much easier time setting up for the charge, because they have access to fast skimmers, which makes all the difference in the world.

If you want to get fancy, use DA to multi-assault a bunch of stuff (2-3 squads of tac marines w/ a PF sarge, for instance), giving assault range to something like Scorpions/Banshees. You're going to hit first, take an attack away from all squads in contact, have a ++ save for PF/PW, all while setting up your assault units to run in and smash face. Not bad, not bad at all...

Note the important part here, Defend is the better power, not B. storm. Using both styles in the same list, instead of focusing on one over the other, makes the most sense to me. One squad of Storm DA, one of Defend, and a squad of Scorpions; shake and bake anti-infantry combo.

I have warwalkers I need to put together, but I haven't played with current edition warwalkers. I rememeber the 3rd edition codex warwalkers being amazing, but you cannot take holofields and 3 shot star cannons anymore. I know general tactics with them and I know they can really shine depending on the role you take them for. More to come on them.

WW are good, I just need to figure out how to work them into a Mech (skimmer) list. I would rather WW over FPs, even though they have different strengths/weaknesses, they still compete for the same slots. Skip upgrades for the WW, they should never really need any of it.

Wraithlords are pretty simple, I usually use them to hang back for some AT with a BL EML setup.

It is really what they do best. The second option is to take 3 (instead of 2 w/ a squad of WW to back them up), and just give them a sword and flamers. Ninja-lords are pretty cool, imo. You get 3 bodies instead of two, for basically the same price... man, why is Eldar AT so expensive?

Howling Banshees... a unit of power weapons with strength 3. Should be fairly easy, but somehow I always bite off more than I can chew and that S3 hurts me in the process. What are some guidelines with what and what not to do with these?

HB are Meq-hunters, they absolutely rock house against T4 medium/heavy infantry. Doom is what allow them to wipe squads, which oddly enough, is not something you want to do every game. Consider them a bit of a loss after the first round of assault, especially if they have killed everything in their path.

I would suggest reviewing their odds against different Meq units, I am pretty sure they can instantly kill an entire assault termie squad with some regularity. This is considering that they can potentially kill everything before it ever gets to hit back. That is their strength, their agility.

Pathfinders, love them to death, they're really good for what they do and fairly cheap to use. I've had really good games with them and really bad games with them, it usually comes down to where I deploy them. I've had them take out 5 times worth their points in some games, but once again it's all in deployment.

They have a 2+ cover save, I consider that pretty badass. AV10 and basic MC's should be very cautious around PF, they aren't going much of anywhere until you break their cover.

Fire Prisms, I've proxied them a few times recently and I'm in love with them. I'm not sure how to kit them though. Should I take holofields and stones as a priority or take holofields only when I have the points?

I suggest skipping the fields altogether, and just taking stones, if anything. Use them in a set of 3 if at all possible. Never use just one, you might as well just get a falcon at that point.

The avatar is a beast in general, and as an eldar character he's just god. However, he doesn't really fit into most lists I try to make because he's so slow compared to everyone else. I do love when people try to melta/ flamer him without knowing though, that was a fun game.

Fortune him, for as long as possible. Without fortune he is not a big problem, with fortune he becomes a serious threat, albeit one that can be avoided quite easily. He moves really slow, and suffers for it; on the other hand he will smash nearly any heavy infantry into tiny pieces, and he can open any tank quite easily.

The Bloody Handed God wrote:So between this and the last codex, Eldar have gotten significantly harder to use (though they were fairly difficult to use before).

See that part I bolded? Don't ever say that. Ever. Because it's simply not true. Eldar were one of the most broken armies of 4th Ed and were as point and click as you could get.

That doesn't really have anything to do with the tactics of them in 5th though. If you're going to post something, please post something relevant.

As for them being dificult, they're my first army and I had just started playing them about 4 months before the new dex dropped, then I didn't play until about 12 months after 5th dropped.

Thanks for all the input wrexasaur. I'll have to look into a lot of that, but I'm thinking my generalship is at fault a lot as well.

The Bloody Handed God wrote:Thanks for all the input wrexasaur. I'll have to look into a lot of that, but I'm thinking my generalship is at fault a lot as well.

No problem, and try not to be negative about your skills. There is always going to be someone better, and always some tactic that can sweep you off the board. Let it happen once, come prepared the next time. Taking notes about your mistakes is not a bad idea, just make sure that you focus where you can learn something, not where you don't.

There are a bunch of combos that you can use effectively, it depends on the type of list you are running.

In a mech list, you can use Scorpions/DA/FD in different styles. Scorpions can't do much with their exarchs gear, so it becomes a matter of how many points you want to put into a counter-assault squad. DA can be both shooty and defensive, even at the same time if you want to spend the points. FD can be geared to hunt heavy infantry/MCs, or to hunt tanks. 2 squads of DA, 2 of FD, and one of Scorpions is a pretty good combo. It will make it easy to take on transports in general, or you can gear it to be slightly more anti-infantry. When it comes to designing combinations, I think that considering what models you want, to be one of the most important parts. I have a full squad of 10 Scorpions, because I can always find a use for them; where I have only one squad of 6 FD because I am not a fan of spamming melta. Stick those 5 units into tanks, after you have figured out how what you are trying to do with them. Try to skip spending too much on tank weaponry, when your army is mainly shooty as it is.

Harlequins can supplement pretty much any footslogging list well, but they aren't great in a mech list. Keeping a farseer inside of a small squad of Harlies, will make for a pretty cheap counter-assault unit. Another option is to get two small squads, and use the shadowseer to counter wraith-sight. Spiritseer are generally better though, because at a 6" psyker range, blast templates will be able to target your WL and hit Harlies through VoT. Fortunately Harlies have a ++ save, but it doesn't make up much for their fragility to ranged firepower. WL and Harlies play well together besides that one point. Both perform admirably against transports, and both work well together against MCs/heavy infantry, while offering support for the others weaknesses.

Don't worry that much about templates, I just have bad luck against large blasts, and with WL in general...

Yriel can jump into a DA SS/defend squad, to make use of their transport mainly. He doesn't really synergize, so much as wait until he can run off to attack a squad on his own. There are some situations where it makes sense to just use his regular attacks, but the large AP3 blast is absolutely devastating to Meqs in general.

Try to figure out what to expect where you game, so you can build a list that is suited to counter those armies. If meltas are going to wreak havoc on an annoying IG army, I recommend taking them. If there is a bunch of swarm armies where you play, bring flamers... lots of them. I put together a few flamer heavy lists a while back, but I don't have enough FDs to actually play it. The whole goal was to wipe swarm armies off of the table by turn 3, with some amount of ability to take on other mechanized forces.

Storm guardians are neat imo, they can work well with many armies. They aren't fancy, and all they do is make it possible to bring 3 flamers in a tank (one HF for the warlock, yay!), but they have 3 freaking flamers, and make for roasty toasty orks. It is usually best to use them in an army that is primarily shooty, because they have a habit of shooting themselves, and many other units in your army, out of assault range. If the other player just pulls models from the front, there is simply no way to get into combat after shooting. If you are worried about snipers, storm guardians are an effective and relatively cheap counter to them; like FD, they really need a transport to get the job done.

Most of my concept armies and tactics, work around the 2000-2500 point levels, I just can't hit hard enough at points beneath that level. It becomes a matter of picking a weak part of an enemies force, and trying to instantly crush it in one turn. When you put together a combo, take the time to set a goal for it first. I want part 1 of 3 in my army, to take care of tanks (Warlocks, FD, Warp spiders, even shuriken cannon spam can work for that), and part 2 of 3 to take care of infantry (DA/Stormies, Scorpions, Banshees, Harlies, even Dark reapers if I am feeling crazy enough... but stick with the first three, they work better); part 3 of 3 can just back up those two parts of my army, as the main roles are filled by them as it is.

Good general purpose units include: WW, WL, Warp spiders, FP, Harlies. Even Vypers, Wraithguard, and Shining spears can fill this role, but are no where near as 'all purpose'. This part of your army should be like grease for the rest of the force, if they aren't filling a gap that can't be filled somewhere else, cheaper, they aren't likely worth taking.

Find the point of your army, the reason why it is fighting in the first place. It's arena will guide you to a more refined design, but you are definitely going to need to just get as many games possible in, if you want to put together a solid list. There are generic lists that you can take to a tourney, and you can find a lot of information regarding those, but focusing on a more personalized army that suits you, is probably the best pursuit. Remember what I said about the same combos of units being able to be geared in different ways, to a certain degree. Pick a style, such as shooty or stealth, and design with that in mind.

Another nasty unit-

Prince Yriel
Farseer
Fortune
7-10 Warlocks
Embolden 1-2, Enhance
Wave Serpent

Durable? Check!
Killing power? Check!
Tank busting power? Check!

I've recently been finally playing with my eldar more often, and many of the points mentioned above are spot on...

I personally play the first and 3rd builds incarna has mentioned (although at the most 2 wraithlords, since I like having a falcon)...I do have the following comments on other units..

1. As troops choices, I like using a mounted storm guardian squad with 2 fusion guns led by a warlock (enhance) with a singing spear...that unit CAN bust up armor (not as reliably as fire dragons, but they still can) and in a pinch can reasonably engage a weakened enemy unit in HTH. This unit is as close to a multi-purpose unit as any the eldar can field (the other is of course the seer council). Another option as a second unit is to have the warlock have conceal, and have the storm guardians carry 2 flamers instead, to better deal with light infantry/non meq armies...
2. The single best farseer power I love is fortune..that, coupled with either the energy field (or holo fields on falcons) on the skimmers in cover, really increases survivability a lot...
3. A Fortuned Avatar is really tough to take down in hth, barring instant death weaponry, and of course the SwarmLord.
4. Volume fire is better than single high strength weapons...which is why I love scatter lasers. I also like falcons since you get at least 2 s8 shots in order to crack armor (3 if you pair the pulse lasers with the eldar ML..I find brightlances too expensive as an option)..I leave Land Raiders to be popped by firedragons.
5. I only enter CC if i have to, and the best units for that are fortuned seer councils and avatars. The wraithlord it is best to assault high points tough things instead of squads, as the combat can get bogged down due to the few attacks from the Wraithlord.
6. As is typical with eldar, gang up on a few of his units with more of yours. The eldar are still 1 of the most mobile armies in the game, so try to hit a weak portion with as much units as you can. It is better to leave an objective abandoned for late turn grabs than to remain static. For this purpose I like using minimal 3 man unit of guardian jetbikes (with 1 shuricannon). I hold these in reserve always, and when they pop out they try to avoid enemy fire as much as possible, sniping in and out of cover with the jetbike move, then late in the game make the move to grab the uncontested objective(s) and hope to survive till the game ends.

Thanks, both of you. That's a lot of good advice. I think I've been biased towards certain things which I read on here (tourney lists) and form what some people at my flgs say is decent, but then I don't use it in the correct way. I think I might try to just start writing what I'm doing down and refer back to it, see mistakes and such as you said wrexasaur.

Wrexasaur, as for OP, try space wolves, group of 5 thunder wolf calv, 2 groups of three thunder wolf calv, some hq guy on a wolf who has 3 wolves, and then two, or thre longfang sqauds of 5 with missile launchers. It was a friends ard boys list. I'd say that's pretty OP. Is there a counter, of course, was I ready for it? Not in the least.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Another nasty unit-

Prince Yriel
Farseer
Fortune
7-10 Warlocks
Embolden 1-2, Enhance
Wave Serpent

Durable? Check!
Killing power? Check!
Tank busting power? Check!
Rather easily avoidable? Check!
Expensive as hell? Check!!!

There fixed it for you

Lol. That was a bit funny, but please in the future try to contribute to the discussion instead of just pointing something like that out.

Anyway, the first competitive build I will mention is pure mechanized or majority mechanized with fast auxiliaries. Wave Serpents are really good transports despite being slightly overpriced and piloted by the Craftworld bridge club. What’s more, they’re ideally suited to the current melta-heavy meta-game. Create a balanced force, put them in 5 to 7 Wave Serpents with Spirit Stones, and rejoice as your opponent cries about how “Eldar are so broken with those stupid transports.” I particularly enjoy a mounted Fortunseer + 9 warlocks + 1 enhance + 1 embolden for a nasty CC unit that can fleet into close combat. Some people like to slap 5 dire avengers in a Wave Serpent and use it as a fast scoring vehicle.

This is a strong build. However, I'd disagree here and take full Dire Avenger units with blade storm.
Otherwise, what would you throw against some large Ork mobz or Gaunt packs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Another nasty unit-

Prince Yriel
Farseer
Fortune
7-10 Warlocks
Embolden 1-2, Enhance
Wave Serpent

Durable? Check!
Killing power? Check!
Tank busting power? Check!

I'd replace the Farseer by Eldrad.
This gives you two models that generally hit on 3+ and would on 2+ without armor saves.
While a Seer Council is the best anvil unit in the game, it becomes a hammer unit as well with Yriel and Eldrad.

something no one has mentioned is that the eldar missle launcher is now stellar.

normal krak missle + str 4 ap 4 PINNING. so against non meq it pens armor + pinning checks.

i'm going to test this list tonight, just because i'm different and guardians are as point efficient as dires.

eldrad
farseer + doom + guide + fortune + stones
6 harlequin + master(power weapon) + seer + 5 kisses + 2 fusion
6 harlequin + master(power weapon) + seer + 5 kisses + 2 fusion
10 guardians + BL
10 guardians + BL
10 guardians + BL
10 guardians + missle
10 guardians + missle
10 guardians + missle
3 war walkers + missle/shuriken cannon
3 war walkers + missle/shuriken cannon
3 war walkers + missle/shuriken cannon

this is a little under about 1900 i think

drop eldrad and the farseer in with the harlequins the guardians will get 4+ cover from the harle's walkers shoot over everything or outflank.
turn 1, fortune both harles, guide all three walkers.
turn 2 fortune, guide/doom as needed
turn 3 fortune, doom

3 lances usually are enough unless i hit a land raider spam.


keep in mind that anything i'm shooting shuriken catapults at is doomed otehr wise i'm running away so with that in mind.

120 points = 10 dires = 12 guardians + missle

10 dires = 20 shots = 12.6 hits = 6.3 wounds = 2.1 meqs
12 guardians = 22 shots 11 hits 5.5 wounds = 1.8 + .4 meqs from missle = 2.2 dead meqs.

dire avengers get a save vs bolters but guardians can shoot from outside return fire range for 1-3 turns. and if you wanna shoot that las cannon at an 8 point dude go right ahead.

There's something with that list I have a problem with. Eldar are shooty, but in no way are they gunline shooty. I don't know if that's fact or I've just never had luck with it.

Okay, so let me preface this with the fact that I haven't been an eldar player singe third ed, nor am I currently.

That said, I think the biggest problem that eldar players have now is 4th ed. Invincible skimmers that could still shoot weapons, Invincible turboboosting jetbikes, immunity to perils of the warp, the list goes on and on of things that were horribly broken in 4th ed. This meant that for a whole edition, eldar players could basically turn off their brains and still win games.

5th ed/the current codex stripped away of all of the eldar's most blatant nonsense, and left an army that had to play by the rules, commanded by really sloppy players who had grown complicit over time (scary how much this matches the eldar fluff...). Sloppy commanders that just shove their units across the field assuming that they're invincible are of COURSE going to lose now that they're a relatively balanced army in a relatively balanced rules edition.

The thing is, eldar still have loads of cheap (relatively) specialist units, and they can still all take skimmers (which are still GREAT, even though their not uber god anymore). The eldar codex gives an eldar player the ability to build a fast list based on combined arms.

Whining about how eldar aren't cheezable anymore doesn't change the fact that they can still be competitive.

The Bloody Handed God wrote:There's something with that list I have a problem with. Eldar are shooty, but in no way are they gunline shooty. I don't know if that's fact or I've just never had luck with it.

They can totally be gunline shooty, but you are talking about a pretty low model count, low toughness/save army. I think that relying on guardians to do much besides be relatively cheap, is not going to win you a lot of games. Defender guardians are a cost effective way to hold flags, while furiously trying to accomplish anything besides that. I give them scatterlasers, so I can use the extra points elsewhere. If I had more WW and PF I would probably mess around with a pinning list, but the concept never struck me as very dynamic. Against most any swarm army, a dozen pinning templates (or more) along with 10-20 MC-wrecking sniper shots, is going to be as direct a counter you can get without flamer templates. You can actually do pretty well against mech, but at an average of 3 damaging hits from your EML/turn (against AV12, it gets easier against rhinos and chimeras), your Snipers are going to need to get solid hits in the first couple of turns, or your army will simply get run down.

Even if your opponent doesn't have smoke cover, they can still provide cover with other transports. You can regularly expect your shots to meet vehicles in cover. The first two turns are very important for any gunline, but eldar is both more fragile and more flexible. EML are very much superior to standard ML, but you simply can't rely on the AP4 to be of much use, so it could be considered overcosted with the amount of cover present in most games. Using BL on BS3 units just seems silly if you aren't getting TL-guns on a tank; the other advantage being the mobility of the tank itself. Assault weapons and fast tanks are one of the reasons you can still be moderately competitive (I don't think that will last very long, TBH) with Eldar. If you can find a way to back up while firing, it becomes very difficult to reliably assault you. The margin for error is greater for Eldar, but they pay for that, and they die very quickly for advantage as well. You will generally find less ranged weaponry in your average Eldar list, as compared to another shooty gunline, but S. lasers/S. cannons are still very much a competitive choice.

If you are going to go with footslogging, the only efficient place to put BL, is on WL. They are really not a good gun for Guardians to be using, EML is not as expensive, but it is still a single shot weapon on a BS3 unit. Use the templates as much as possible with BS3, it is definitely the strong suit of EML in that context.

Further, but I won't elaborate much on this: Eldar can tailor very specifically to take on different armies, when in a gunline. I don't use Dark reapers, but their Exarch is just way too awesome not to take note of. Cover ignoring AP3 blasts, what an awesome weapon.
Dark reapers are about as ranged anti-meq that Eldar can be, but they compete with WW for a slot, so... I don't plan on getting any of them.

Ailaros wrote:The thing is, eldar still have loads of cheap (relatively) specialist units, and they can still all take skimmers (which are still GREAT, even though their not uber god anymore). The eldar codex gives an eldar player the ability to build a fast list based on combined arms.

Whining about how eldar aren't cheezable anymore doesn't change the fact that they can still be competitive.

On a scale of (easy)1-10(hard) in terms of difficulty of use, Eldar are easily within the 7-10 mark. I know of, and use many very complicated tactics, and they work well. If my opponent catches on to what I am doing, many of those very complicated tactics simply fall into pieces. If I were to play against an Eldar player with a BA army, and do so regularly, I would bet 20 bucks that I would beat him 2/3 games. Possibly more depending on how much experience either of us have with each army.

You can be competitive, but I highly doubt that Eldar will be anything but an example of the best players, making use of the most difficult strategies/tactics. Experience counts for an awful lot in a tournament, and it seems that the best Eldar players simply have the most experience with the game in general. Not to say that other armies can't be as difficult to use, just that Eldar encounters more of that.

Bottom line is that they have an outdated codex, not nearly as far behind as some, but certainly not shiny anymore. If it takes years to get a new codex, I will likely put together a BA army, or just take a break from army-building for a while. Or move on to make my custom Ork army.

tedurur wrote:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Another nasty unit-

Prince Yriel
Farseer
Fortune
7-10 Warlocks
Embolden 1-2, Enhance
Wave Serpent

Durable? Check!
Killing power? Check!
Tank busting power? Check!
Rather easily avoidable? Check!
Expensive as hell? Check!!!

There fixed it for you

We simply can't agree to disagree eh?

Easily avoidable? How, you're in a fast moving skimmer, and you can assault 15"-20" over from the back of it.

Expensive as hell? You mean... like 99.999996% of effective deathstars? Clocks in at below six hundred points, 110 of those in a wave serpent.

@Wrexasaur

I disagree, I would rank them anywhere from 5-7 on the difficulty to play army.

Out of curiosity, what would you rank 7-10?

I consider Orks to be 5-7, SM 5-7, even Necrons/Tau are 5-7 for me. I can think of a few simple armies that Eldar could play, but most are not that easy to use. The question I am asking, is can you make a list and have it do it's job. If the only job you have for a list is winning games, then I don't consider a scale to be useful at all, as it will or it will not complete that objective, there isn't much gray area there. When you start to develop lists around tying games, then it does become much more complicated, and a scale makes sense. Not to lose all the time, that is the goal of most of my lists. Tau and necron are worse off than Eldar, but their main strategies are very simple. Eldar can be simple, complicated, convoluted, or just focused; any army can do that, but most don't have the same amount of planning involved.

Just because my goal is to crush half of my opponents army, doesn't mean that I can use simple tactics to accomplish that. I can easily spend weeks going through tactics for any given Eldar list, while I only really need a few days to study Ork tactics, and a few hours to study swarm tactics.

1-5 would be something like a green tide, or tyranid swarm w/ a couple MCs. Very few armies are as finicky as Eldar, IMHO.

---

Set up a poll, so get in there and tell me what you think.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/303215.page

Maybe I shouldn't post here (you'll see why soon enough), but I thought I'd chime in.

Eldar I think are very flexible in that you can field a wide variety of lists to at least some good effect (yes, beyond the deathstar council/jetbike council/serpent swarm).

3 tournaments in a row (mind you they were only local tournaments, but with a relatively wide variety of opponents. 16 total people at each one, and each tournament tended to have a few people drop and a few new people join) I've placed in the top three. My list:

Eldrad
5 warlocks (2 embolden, 3 destructor)
Fuegan
5 dragons
10 avengers in a serpent (EML, spirit stones)
2x 10 guardians (scatter laser, embolden warlock)
7 hawks (exarch, sunrifle, sky leap, intercept)
3x Falcon (holo-fields, turret shuriken cannon, spirit stones)

It's actually been extremely effective (I'd hope so after toying with it for 4 months). Between the three falcons and the EML I have decent long range anti tank (looking mainly at rhino rush, chimera wall - yes S8 does work against it - and big bugs on the other side of the field, especially venomthropes). Scatter lasers can pitch in against AV10-11 vehicles along with going against poorly armored infantry (T4 or less, such as small bugs, marines, guardsmen and so on).

Against more shooty opponents the falcons serve as reliable transports. The dragons get one, Eldrad and warlocks a second, and Fuegan the third. I am able to move up on my opponent to attack whatever units he has (more useful against guard gunlines that have more firepower than just a chimera spam, against marine armies with a lot of ranged fire - long fangs, razorbacks, devastators, multiple predators - ). Fortune is always used on Eldrad and his warlocks, and the other two powers are free to do what they like (if moving flat out, I usually fortune Eldrad and warlocks, and Fuegan's Falcon. I like to be sure that my warlocks don't die because their Falcon was unluckily shot down).

The hawks. I've been told by Niel (LGS owner) that if I were to change anything, they should be the first to go. Yes they are overcosted for what they do (though not by too much), but they work so well for me that I can't bear to part with them. Las blasters have long enough range to harass enemy units while keeping out of effective reprisal range, and the pinning and high rate of fire of the sun rifle have been effective more than once. In addition, the haywires (despite being less effective than last edition) have been extremely useful. They usually don't kill a tank I use them on, but just being able to shut it down for a turn or two has been extremely helpful (especially when the vehicle lacks extra armor and the hawks cover the access points). Sky leap also ensures that they don't get in a combat they don't want to be in. Usually against an enemy that'll come to me (the kinds of fights where I use the falcons to shoot enemy transports) the hawks come on from my table edge. With fleet they have a very large effective range to be able to haywire an enemy tank that's starting to break through my lines.

Anyway, there's my "brief" rundown of how I got Eldar to work for me. A final point of what I like about my list is that it's varied. I only have 2 duplicated units (the falcons and the guardians). Otherwise I have a total of 9 different units (out of 12. so 3/4 of my army is different) making the list both varied & fun as well as effective (hordes have been my biggest problem because I just can't kill enough in time. My best move so far has been to hit the nobs with the warlocks while Fuegan and Eldrad assault - all as one unit mind you - so that the characters don't have to worry about being killed by hidden fists).

I'm always intrigued by folks using unconventional Eldar lists, but I do have one question.

How are you avoiding Eldrad/Fuegan being able to be hit by hidden powerfists? Has it been every case you get the charge and are able to put a Warlock in base to base with every powerfist in the Nob unit?

Well, Fuegan has eternal warrior IIRC, and Eldrad should have a 3++ re-rollable.

Mindwar is one option, another is not getting close to those units.

TH/SS terminators are the only real threat that can spam instant death weapons.

Since Eldrad is with the warlocks it hasn't been a problem for him.

Fuegan on the other-hand.....really just doesn't care. Since most opponents only get 2 swings and hit on 4s, it should take 3 assault rounds to kill him, all the while Fuegan is killing the squad. But, Fuegan is far better at fighting marines and the like instead of hordes. My experience with hordes is minimal since Niel is the only one who plays horde orks.

But against marines Fuegan is quite powerful. Scout squads, any type of vehicle, he usually takes them apart. And with a falcon as transport he's quite able to get to his target. He can't take on characters, but if you don't have more than one power fist/weapon, Emperor save you.

Mind war is an option, but it's unreliable. It's helpful to keep Eldrad away from S8+, but isn't necessary (I do my best not to risk him. Due to his lack of fleet he even usually stays in the Falcon while the warlocks go fight, unless they're shooting and need his assault ability for when they get charged).

That is most definitely an interesting list Ail-Shan.