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Well, first off, the theory is it uses your armor to crush yuo to death... So having your armor save you while crushing you is beyond idiotic.
Second, they are salvo meaning they can't be effective on the move with regular schmoes, not even stern guard out of a pod. Consider a plasma gun wounds most things on a 2+ and is AP2 and can move and fire twice and suddenly 3 shots stationary from a gun that ONLY is effective against TEQ or MC's doesn't seem like a no brainer any more. If you face tau or eldar you are hurting a coupe unit entries sure, but those grav weapons are crap against even kroot unlike a plasma gun.
I think they are a great weapon actually, but really will be most effective on a relentless platform. Like bikes and centurions. But even there you are using EXPENSIVE units to fill a niche roll, considering the stock HB's on the centurions are better against guardsmen and orks then the grave weapons.
Everything I have read has them listed at AP2 though I haven't seen one summary for all the effects.
From what I have gathered so far they are salvo, wound on armor save roll and AP 2 with some bizarre effect against vehicles which I haven't fully learned but apparently they strip HP's and immobilize them on 6's? Oh and the have concussive.
Being a marine player, i sinceraly hope they are not ap2, i would like no better than ap4+, it would make them simply too good, there would be no reason to use something else.
If they're costed appropriately (probably 5-10 more points than a plasma gun depending on the details) they may not be too unreasonable. Considering that a plasma gun is going to wound most things (anything T5 or lower) on a 2+ and is AP2, it's not an entirely unfamiliar weapon. Heck, it'd potentially even be slightly worse against MEQ.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking forward to yet *more* stuff that turns my Deathwing into 40-some point Guardsmen and these things certainly could be unbalanced, but I'll hold my judgement until I see the actual rules, point costs, and availability.
2013/08/14 17:21:46
Subject: Re:Codex: Space Marines.first post updated
[spoiler]Has it been confirmed or anyone read that grav weapons ignore armor save?. I have read all over the place they wound equals to models save, not that they ignore it. I dont think they will ignore it, that would make them the default best weapon with no downside for every chapter that can use them since, If they have bad save you dont need them and your bolters do the job, and if they have good save then you have the best specialist you could want, there is literally no downside to use them. When melta ruled 5th, it still had the short range downside, plasma in 6th has the overheat downside, i doubt they would make a best gun ever, with no downside what so ever, and yeah moving rapid firing weapons and 12" range for this gun i dont consider it a downside, unlike melta in 5th now you can move and fire your bolters.
Can anyone confirm they do indeed ignore saves?.
They counter MCs with the concusive rule.
being salvo, they are only really good when standing still, plasma and melta are good on the move
Plasma will be better against Teq melta for ID/ vehicles
neither plasma nor melta is useless against ork boys. Models with grav weapons are better pulling out their bolt pistol than using the grav rifle on an ork.
Everything I have read has them listed at AP2 though I haven't seen one summary for all the effects.
From what I have gathered so far they are salvo, wound on armor save roll and AP 2 with some bizarre effect against vehicles which I haven't fully learned but apparently they strip HP's and immobilize them on 6's? Oh and the have concussive.
Being a marine player, i sinceraly hope they are not ap2, i would like no better than ap4+, it would make them simply too good, there would be no reason to use something else.
even if it is ap2,
the fact that you cant fire them on the move well
the fact that they cannot ID things
the fact they are nearly useless against vehicles
the fact that they are nearlly useless against Geq and worse
the fact that they may cost more than a melta or plasma
the fact that even against Meq(3+) melta or plasma is better
I see a lot of reasons to use other things.
[/spoiler]
This is my feeling as well, for me even a centurion unit will only ever have 3 grav weapons with 1-2 other weapons. I'll probably do 2 heavy grav and 1 with las canons since they can help finish any MC off or split fire at tanks.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/08/14 17:23:17
Everything I have read has them listed at AP2 though I haven't seen one summary for all the effects.
From what I have gathered so far they are salvo, wound on armor save roll and AP 2 with some bizarre effect against vehicles which I haven't fully learned but apparently they strip HP's and immobilize them on 6's? Oh and the have concussive.
Being a marine player, i sinceraly hope they are not ap2, i would like no better than ap4+, it would make them simply too good, there would be no reason to use something else.
I see a lot of people complaining about Marines not needing another AP2 weapon. Why is it the recent Xenos army releases got lots of portable ranged AP3 and AP2, but Marines should be happy with Gets Hot plasma guns and short ranged melta. I for one welcome another portable ranged AP2 weapon to the fold. Certainly comes in handy against 3+ Aspect warriors, 2+ Phoenix Lords, Crisis and Broadside suits, and the various 2+ and 3+ Necron units. Its also nice to have something that can wound Eldar Wraith units consistently. Sure its not so useful against orks, but that's why you don't spam a single weapon type in a TAC list.
Making it salvo also adds a twist to the typical combat squad setup (put the heavy weapon and the grav gun in the same squad for a nice little fire base).
Looks like I'll be spamming Kroot with Sniper rounds a lot now then - come at me Grav Guns :-D Snipe those bad boys out of there!
P.S This was only a jest. I know Grav guns will probably be very rare as they are such a situational gun but wounding on armour save AND AP2 is quite scary for my Riptide to contend with. Guess I'll just sit 72" back and just pop them off.
I honestly will never run one over melta in my tac squads, it's not actually portable being salvo and lets not forget can't over watch (or am I mistaken?). Nah I hope they can be mounted on attack bikes actually, I'll field a pair of heavy grav attack bikes any day.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/14 17:34:53
ClassicCarraway wrote: I see a lot of people complaining about Marines not needing another AP2 weapon. Why is it the recent Xenos army releases got lots of portable ranged AP3 and AP2, but Marines should be happy with Gets Hot plasma guns and short ranged melta. I for one welcome another portable ranged AP2 weapon to the fold. Certainly comes in handy against 3+ Aspect warriors, 2+ Phoenix Lords, Crisis and Broadside suits, and the various 2+ and 3+ Necron units. Its also nice to have something that can wound Eldar Wraith units consistently. Sure its not so useful against orks, but that's why you don't spam a single weapon type in a TAC list.
Eldar don't have an a way to assault out of a vehicle or deepstrike like most Marine Codexes and everybody with an open-topped vehicle. Not every army should have every answer that another army provides. Maybe this is the source of their confusion and warranted scowl.
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xxvaderxx wrote: Being a marine player, i sinceraly hope they are not ap2, i would like no better than ap4+, it would make them simply too good, there would be no reason to use something else.
Being good at math, I sincerely hope they are not AP4 since that would make plasma better in all situations except when <insert some situation that is as likely as winning the lottery>.
Don't forget that quite some MC's are 4+, so they only wound on a 4+
Hulksmash wrote: Anyone for Tigrius leading a unit of Cents with Grav Cannons? Especially since Tigrius can take Divinations
Prescience doesn't seem worth it since your playing UM and probably already rerolling 1's. Though perfect timing or forewarning would be nice.
Give the man a cookie
Basicall a level 3 with the ability to have a decent shot at Forwarning, Perfect Timing, and Misfortune (or whatever it's call). But also able if one of those doesn't sound great to roll on biomancy to for possible FnP. Some good stuff there.
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Red Corsair wrote: I honestly will never run one over melta in my tac squads, it's not actually portable being salvo and lets not forget can't over watch (or am I mistaken?). Nah I hope they can be mounted on attack bikes actually, I'll field a pair of heavy grav attack bikes any day.
Honestly the possibly BS rules they have supplied the squad based units are 2/3 salvo. Seems pretty useful even if you moved.
I think Melta and Plasma are both better options, but that's because I face a lot of targets that are GEQ saves or worse. Melta is much better against vehicles, it can ID more targets, and it's far better at wounding MCs and targets with poorer armor saves. And plasma is better at moving and shooting, still wounds most things on 2s, ignores armor saves and is better at dealing with armor and guys with 3+ saves (or worse).
..........
On another note, what are the rumors about codex psychic powers? Are there going to be any left, or are they going to roll out of the core book for everything? I don't wanna lose Null Zone. :(
..........
Also, what are people's thoughts on the Imperial Fist rules? The Bolter re-roll is worse than the UM Tactical Doctrine, but I think providing Tank Hunter to (newly discounted) Dev Squads and ranged Centurians is pretty legit. I wanna put a Dev squad in an ADL w/ Quad Gun and get to re-roll those armor pen attempts against fliers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/14 18:31:41
wtwlf123 wrote: I think Melta and Plasma are both better options, but that's because I face a lot of targets that are GEQ saves or worse. Melta is much better against vehicles, it can ID more targets, and it's far better at wounding MCs and targets with poorer armor saves. And plasma is better at moving and shooting, still wounds most things on 2s, ignores armor saves and is better at dealing with armor and guys with 3+ saves (or worse).
..........
On another note, what are the rumors about codex psychic powers? Are there going to be any left, or are they going to roll out of the core book for everything? I don't wanna lose Null Zone. :(
..........
Also, what are people's thoughts on the Imperial Fist rules? The Bolter re-roll is worse than the UM Tactical Doctrine, but I think providing Tank Hunter to (newly discounted) Dev Squads and ranged Centurians is pretty legit. I wanna put a Dev squad in an ADL w/ Quad Gun and get to re-roll those armor pen attempts against fliers.
almost certainly losing all psykic powers.
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Red Corsair wrote: I honestly will never run one over melta in my tac squads, it's not actually portable being salvo and lets not forget can't over watch (or am I mistaken?). Nah I hope they can be mounted on attack bikes actually, I'll field a pair of heavy grav attack bikes any day.
Honestly the possibly BS rules they have supplied the squad based units are 2/3 salvo. Seems pretty useful even if you moved.
Don't forget that it has an 18" range for those guns, and even the cannons only have a 24" range making them fairly close range weapons when compared to a lot of other army's longer ranged weapons.
The new characters look absolutely brilliant and they are hopefully plastic sprues and not Finecast. They are steep at $30 each though. And they probably have no options at all and if they do it's probably no more than just an alternate hand or head much like the Terminator Librarian (formerly metal, now Finecast).
I couldn't help notice that the Captain is a heavily reworked version of the Assault On Black Reach Space Marine Captain, a careful look at it makes it pretty obvious through the identical pose, shape of the cloak, position of the hands with the sword and bolter, etc., However, it's brilliantly done and makes me want to own one even though I own several of the Black Reach Captain models.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/08/14 18:37:29
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BrassScorpion wrote: The new characters look absolutely brilliant and they are hopefully plastic sprues and not Finecast. They are steep at $30 each though. And they probably have no options at all and if they do it's probably no more than just an alternate hand or head much like the Terminator Librarian (formerly metal, now Finecast).
I couldn't help notice that the Captain is a heavily reworked version of the Assault On Black Reach Space Marine Captain, a careful look at it makes it pretty obvious through the identical pose, shape of the cloak, position of the hands with the sword and bolter, etc., However, it's brilliantly done and makes me want to own one even though I own several of the Black Reach Captain models.
+ helmet
+ crest(floor brush)
+ gravgun
and there you go.
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I'm not especially wowed by the new HQ models myself. Considering how expensive these kits are supposed to be, if you were looking to buy all three you could just pick up one of the new Sternguard or Vanguard kits and use that to kitbash five characters.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/08/14 19:36:57
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BrassScorpion wrote: I couldn't help notice that the Captain is a heavily reworked version of the Assault On Black Reach Space Marine Captain, a careful look at it makes it pretty obvious through the identical pose, shape of the cloak, position of the hands with the sword and bolter, etc.,
This was discussed earlier. When you put them side by side, they're actually not as identical as they at first seem. Just in similar poses.
My apologies but what are the supposed stats for Tigurius? I keep on hearing about claims that he can auto-pass psyker tests and pick from any psychic discipline and not having an invuln save yet I cannot seem to find it. Might anybody be so kind as to redirect me? (and I must admit I'm a bit jealous as a Tzeentch player )
StarTrotter wrote: My apologies but what are the supposed stats for Tigurius? I keep on hearing about claims that he can auto-pass psyker tests and pick from any psychic discipline and not having an invuln save yet I cannot seem to find it. Might anybody be so kind as to redirect me? (and I must admit I'm a bit jealous as a Tzeentch player )
Tigurius:
Mastery level 3
Can choose powers from any rulebook discipline
Can re-roll when generating powers
Lets you re-roll reserve rolls (even ones you passed) and failed psychic tests
StarTrotter wrote: My apologies but what are the supposed stats for Tigurius? I keep on hearing about claims that he can auto-pass psyker tests and pick from any psychic discipline and not having an invuln save yet I cannot seem to find it. Might anybody be so kind as to redirect me? (and I must admit I'm a bit jealous as a Tzeentch player )
No new stats are given. All the rumors are that he's a ML3 with all disciplines, and he can reroll the roll to get a power, or his psychic checks.
Red Corsair wrote: I honestly will never run one over melta in my tac squads, it's not actually portable being salvo and lets not forget can't over watch (or am I mistaken?). Nah I hope they can be mounted on attack bikes actually, I'll field a pair of heavy grav attack bikes any day.
Honestly the possibly BS rules they have supplied the squad based units are 2/3 salvo. Seems pretty useful even if you moved.
Salvo is only half range if you move, so only 9" for grav gun and 12" for the cannon if you move.
Fezman wrote: I'm not especially wowed by the new HQ models myself. Considering how expensive these kits are supposed to be, if you were looking to buy all three you could just pick up one of the new Sternguard or Vanguard kits and use that to kitbash five characters.
if these are reasonably multi-part kits (to the tune of the Empire Wizard kit) I could be down for picking some of these up, but as it stands I'm not sure if I want them.
Hulksmash wrote: Anyone for Tigrius leading a unit of Cents with Grav Cannons? Especially since Tigrius can take Divinations
Prescience doesn't seem worth it since your playing UM and probably already rerolling 1's. Though perfect timing or forewarning would be nice.
Give the man a cookie
Basicall a level 3 with the ability to have a decent shot at Forwarning, Perfect Timing, and Misfortune (or whatever it's call). But also able if one of those doesn't sound great to roll on biomancy to for possible FnP. Some good stuff there.
Honestly you could use Iron hands with him and go for endurance to try and get a FNP 4+, I onley wish that IWND stacked like FNP for a 4+ there too
Really Tygrius is going to be awesome with almost any unit and I am not sure the Centurions will need him as much as others. I think I would use him with the telepathy table more often. Having three rerollable shots at invisibility or hallucination, heck even puppet master is borderline busted.
Naturally. It depends on who you're playing. Tigrius is going to be fairly prolific I think. Basic marines being able to also ally in IG blobs and have them still get divination is stupid. Especially if characters aren't tied to specific traits (i.e. Tigrius is my Salamander Master Librarian).
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SickSix wrote: Personally I thought the DP and LR capacity only made since to be 12. Seems silly to me that you cant take 5 termies and an HQ in a Land Raider.
It would be nice, and I am going to miss the ability to run a full 10 man sternguard squad (that can combat squad) plus Kantor in a drop pod, but it was kind of stupid to give them 12 model capacity when the brand new drop pod model comes with 10 seats.
There's enough space on the ceiling for two more guys.
Psh, the characters ride on the outside, bare chested, laughing off the effects of atmospheric reentry as their sheer manliness defies the laws of the universe to bring them crashing down upon their foes.
I thought that was only Space Wolves?
And blood angels need room for their hair gel and mirrors.
Codex Marines did it as well, but the Space Wolves do it in such a manner that all of them, through sheer manliness, just take a grip onto the Drop Pod and ride it all the way down. Opening the Drop Pod and going inside it are for cowards, and cuts precious seconds off getting into combat with their foes.
After all, Their manly beards, wolf pelts, and faith in the Allfather allows them all to make it through any pathetic thing the universe can throw at them.
I recall someone commenting that the reason SW only have room for 10 in the pod is so they still have space for beer.
dracpanzer wrote: No word yet on whether or not Dreads are still going to get "Inspiring Presence"
I asked about that and he said no, it doesn't exist. Same for the rhino variants too. Apparently creative wishlisting or dropped ideas from playtesting.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/14 20:03:45
2013/08/14 20:07:21
Subject: Re:Codex: Space Marines.first post updated
I really like most of this. The Centurions look very sci-fi. I like their sculpts. I don't think they fit well with SM, but they look cool. I just hope they aren't a cheese unit, because I don't plan to field any if I do decide to build a new SM army for 6th Ed. I really like the multi-barrel anti-aircraft Rhino. I will definitely field one of those. Now, my real hope, is that the new SM box will include some unhelmeted heads that will look more masculine. I really hate having to use SW heads on my SM because all the Ultramarines look like 20 year old college boys till they are 300. Some short beards, some facial scars, and some service studs would be GREATLY appreciated. The new Sternguard box gets me all excited, I love the look of them, and I can't wait to canabalize all the bits. And last but not least, I will be extremely excited if my Salamanders get their own special entry into the new codex with some rules that are great, without having to take Vulkan every time. All in all, Im pretty excited.
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