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Why does it seem everyone hates shadowsun? personally I like her for her quirkyness, especially how deadly she can be against vehicles, and the fact that she has essentially 6 wounds, 5 of which are 4++ and she gives a leadership boost, while being more durable than the equivalent ethereal (sorry, but fearless sucks for an army thats horrid in CC)
So, without this turning into a trollfest/flamewar, why do you hate shadowsun? (no qualms with her point cost, thats true for every pre 5th ed character)

Okay guys, I got this idea, no wait, let me tell you. I got this idea. Lets take a Stealthsuit right? The one that's invisible at range. No, wait listen. So lets take this Stealthsuit, and we'll put Meltaguns on it. No, but we won't put one, we'll put two. And then, lets make it take drones because we don't want it dieing or joining squads. Wait, wait, and here's the kicker: we quadruple the price.

She is the price of a full battlesuit team with a third the firepower and is vastly less durable. The philosophy of her load-out of totally backwards. Stealth fields make you invulnerable at range, so lets give it close ranged guns where the stealth is useless. If she were a Deathrain or even a Fireknife she'd be a steal, but as it is she makes her greatest asset (the stealth field generator) moot.

That is an excellent point, but I always saw the stealth generator as a means to protect her from retribution after blowing up a tank. Like she nails the backfield bassilisk after DSing, and then the stealth field saves her from the return fire of the blob squad thats 12+ inches away from the smoking crater that was the basilisk supposed to be guarding it from DSers


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I guess really what I see her as is like, the commando. She provides close range firepower for on the go shooting, and a leadership bubble where the idea is to basicly strike deep into enemy lines with multiple jsj units to perfectly execute the killing blow, strike hard, and then evac, with her leadership buff keeping those small jsj units from fleeing and getting shot up more

The average roll for the stealth field is 21". The maximum roll is 36". The odds of your opponent being able to see her atleast 21" is something like 67%. What you don't want to do is plan your 175 point model's safety a 5+, and that's if you get some amazing positioning. Usually you'll be looking at 16% chance of it working, because you'll have to be within 6" of your target and you can only JsJ back to 12.

She also isn't more mobile than Crisis teams, which can take more firepower and durability for less points. A 2 man team of Crisis suits, each equiped with Meltaguns and a TL-Flamer, costs 86 points (or 94 points for TL-Meltaguns and a Flamer). She simply can't beat that for efficiency.

The Ld buff should be irrelevant, especially with suicide teams. If the team consists of under 2 models it will never test to leadership before it is wiped out, save for the very odd case of pinning or close combats it loses, yet survives.

I've never used Shadowsun. It's too bad, her model is cool looking.

If she was an IC and her leadership drone had unlimmited range, I'd consider it.

Technically she is an IC, but only after all her drones have been destroyed. The problem is that her stealth field doesn't work unless the entire unit is equiped with them, so unless you take her with Stealthsuits she loses what you payed so much for.

I use Shadowsun to great effect by eating up isolated units and Walkers...

Her small unit size makes her really easy to hide. She always makes back her points by hitting a LR or two smaller vehicles...

Back when she was made in 4th her price was justified. You could only shoot at IC if they were the closest target.

QuietOrkmi wrote:I use Shadowsun to great effect by eating up isolated units and Walkers...

Her small unit size makes her really easy to hide. She always makes back her points by hitting a LR or two smaller vehicles...

That and sticking her in the middle of your army are the two biggest arguements I've seen for taking her, as I've never seen anyone suggest taking her with a stealth team.
Darkhound makes an excellent point with her inefficiency compared to alternate options, but to be fair she in some ways makes up this
As BS wise she is the equivalent of two crisis suits with TL fusions (two TL shots at BS 3 I'd say are about equal to two BS 5 shots) but with a vastly superior LD and coming standard with a shield generator (which is 20 pts anyways...) so points wise, she appears, at least to me, to simply be a stealth version of a Shas'O with Two Fusions (instead of TL) and a super duper Target Lock (which being so advanced I would hypothesize is probably 10pts) puts her only about 30 or so pts under he point cost (pts for shas'o+2 independant Fusions+shield+advanced Target Lock) which two shield drones more than makes up...
I guess because I play so many stealth teams I'm willing to field her...hence why I can see upsides to using her (sidenote, I'm also the kind of wacko who puts a fusion blaster in with his stealth team...for the same reason as Shadowsun: drop em, pop em, and use the stealth to save urself from return fire

Except that it doesn't work like that. Up close the stealth field is useless. It won't save Stealthsuits, it won't save her.

So, you want to get her to work? Well, we need to find somewhere where all her tools come into effect. Otherwise you're wasting points. So, what tools does she have? Two Meltaguns that are not twin-linked that can be fired at seperate targets: the movement of a Crisis Suits: a stealth generator: a Ld aura: the ability to Deepstrike: she is only T3 3+, so while she is durable against high strength weaponry, she is vulnerable to small arms.

Ugh. Her stealth field already makes her invulnerable to long ranged fire, the added invulnerable save and drones are just price hikes. She can't do anything unless she gets close, though, forsaking her durablility against anti-tank weapons for her vulnerability to small arms. So how do you keep her only in the sights of long ranged weapons, but get her close enough to let her fire back? I'm liking QuietOrkmi's suggestion the more I think about it. Leave her around areas otherwise vulnerable to large beasts (troops holding objectives, maybe a pack of Deathrains). She'll usually put 2 wounds on Monsterous Creatures, and can easily wreck a Walker. If push comes to shove, she can even absorb a charge and lock it in place for a turn or two. Granted, Tau don't have anything that can bail her out, so use that as a last resort.

What you don't want to do is chase transports or get her in too close. Transports invariably carry cargo, who in turn invariably carry guns: this is bad for her health. Sacrificing her for a Landraider is as close as you'll get to a fair trade where that's concerned.

"What if the enemy doesn't have MCs/Walkers?" Well, Deepstrike her and attempt to kill something valuable. That's the price you pay when specialise: in some games she'll be less valuable.

I believe it is wrong to think of Shadowsun as a killy damage dealing unit, and instead focus on what she does for the army, which is something the Tau army lack in general.

With her 18" radius of LD10 she is the only way to bring reliable LD to your infantry units, apart from the Ethereal. If you're gonna play her you have to play her to her strengths, so don't be tempted into deep striking her and blowing up a vehicle, only to be shot/assaulted to pieces in the enemy turn. Deploy her with the rest of your army and use her LD bubble to keep your cadre in line. Think of the Fusion Blasters as weapons of last resort, for example, if an Ironclad Dreadnought just drop-podded into your lines, then by all means, blow it up!

Also, by deploying her back with the rest of the army you make use of the Stealth generator as well, making her nearly invulnerable against ranged fire for the first turns of the game.

I mainly think of her as an ethereal, with some really big guns, a nice stealthfield and without all the drawbacks should she get killed, which, I believe, is why I have had some success with her.

Granted, she is not for everyone, and she may not fit your playstyle, but I definately think you should try her out.

You don't want a better Ld when you're Tau. As it is, Tau have re-rollable Ld 8 and can regroup regardless of unit size. That is good enough against tests caused by shooting. In melee the last thing you want is Firewarriors standing their ground. Tau have no melee units to take advantage of opponents locked in combat; they have only shooting to kill their foes, and you can't shoot into close combat. Your best option is to let the Firewarriors die on the first round of combat so the assaulting unit is out in the open.

Tau don't have an issue with Ld. The best use I've seen for Ethereals is to re-roll successful Ld tests in close combat for gun-line Tau.

Both are viable tactics (and those are the only ones I've seen really, something to that effect) as always it is refreshing to hear something quasi accurate rather than the stereotypical internet "BECAUSE SHE SUCKS"

So the main qualm I've seen here though is the same as with stealth suits: fusion blasters. only with her it's worse because there isnt backup firepower to shoot the things to close to be saved by the stealth field.

Too often I see units dismissed as overpriced, but thats just the law of the land: GW likes their Space Marines, and as such, SM ICs are almost without exception cheaper per model compared to their power (prime example is the comparison of SM psykers to Eldrad, who is by far more fragile and yet is obsurdly more expensive)

It IS however interesting to see how she can and should not be used. You basicly described the only way i use her darkhound: dropping her on unguarded backfield objects like a squad of meltavets (tho by this point I think i'm beating a dead horse when I say that) plus she ostensibly has the fusion equivalent of broadside anti tankness

All in all I think you've nailed her big weakness: conflict of interest.
so...thoughts on how she could be improved? (or is that for proposed rules

dbsamurai wrote:Too often I see units dismissed as overpriced, but thats just the law of the land: GW likes their Space Marines, and as such, SM ICs are almost without exception cheaper per model compared to their power (prime example is the comparison of SM psykers to Eldrad, who is by far more fragile and yet is obsurdly more expensive)

Eldrad is without a doubt the most powerful psycher in the game, and is priced approprietly. In combat, at range, in supporting other units, in stopping other psychers, Eldrad is the king. Eldrad is not fragile, with a re-rollable 3+ invulnerable save. SM Psychers are considered the best non-SC Codex Marines have, but that isn't saying much as their non-SC HQs are fairly sub-par. So you can understand when I say I don't understand your point.

It IS however interesting to see how she can and should not be used. You basicly described the only way i use her Darkhound: dropping her on unguarded backfield objects like a squad of meltavets (tho by this point I think i'm beating a dead horse when I say that) plus she ostensibly has the fusion equivalent of broadside anti tankness

I still need to stress how painfully ineffecient that is, and that it should be used only when all other options are exhausted.

so...thoughts on how she could be improved? (or is that for proposed rules

Probably, but here's my take on it. Ideally what HQs should do is modify the rest of the army: support it instead of being a just a killing machine. SM, Ork, Eldar, Imperial Guard, Tyranids: all their HQs support the army, if not in addition to being killing machines. Tau don't need fancy Ld tricks, or the ability to change their FoC; they already have a great, versitile mechanic for that. Give her 3 Marker Drones instead of her current drones and two seperate Plasmarifles, but drop her ability to target two units. Increase her price to 185. Now she is a valuable HQ, but not a must-take. She add Markerlights, although if you don't need them it is worth it to get a far cheaper Shas'el or 'O.

dbsamurai wrote:Too often I see units dismissed as overpriced, but thats just the law of the land: GW likes their Space Marines, and as such, SM ICs are almost without exception cheaper per model compared to their power (prime example is the comparison of SM psykers to Eldrad, who is by far more fragile and yet is obsurdly more expensive)

?!?!? Eldrad has the better stats than a space marine, WS5 BS5 T4 I5 Ld10 ... ok only one attack (+1 for 2CCW) strength 3 but guess what he has a weapon the wounds on 2+ and ignores armour saves. In fact most Librarians will end up near the 200pts mark any way: they'll never be as good though.

DarkHound wrote:Eldrad is without a doubt the most powerful psycher in the game, and is priced approprietly. In combat, at range, in supporting other units, in stopping other psychers, Eldrad is the king. Eldrad is not fragile, with a re-rollable 3+ invulnerable save. SM Psychers are considered the best non-SC Codex Marines have, but that isn't saying much as their non-SC HQs are fairly sub-par. So you can understand when I say I don't understand your point.

I'd go further and say if you're an eldar player and want a farseer, you take Eldrad first. Taking the test on LD10, embolden warlock for a reroll, you can never fail.

Ld10, 3d6 discard the highest, re-rollable with a 3+ save against Perils before his 3++ (re-rollable) normal save against Perils. He will never ever, ever, ever fail or take damage from his spells.

Yes, it is always worth it over 1500 to spend the last 50 points to get Eldrad over a Farseer.

DarkHound wrote:You don't want a better Ld when you're Tau. As it is, Tau have re-rollable Ld 8 and can regroup regardless of unit size. That is good enough against tests caused by shooting. In melee the last thing you want is Firewarriors standing their ground. Tau have no melee units to take advantage of opponents locked in combat; they have only shooting to kill their foes, and you can't shoot into close combat. Your best option is to let the Firewarriors die on the first round of combat so the assaulting unit is out in the open.

Tau don't have an issue with Ld. The best use I've seen for Ethereals is to re-roll successful Ld tests in close combat for gun-line Tau.

Indeed, you would only make use of her leadership in situations where you would benefit from it (the magic of the little word 'may' ). I know it sucks to have your FWs survive a combat only to die in your turn, freeing the enemy unit up. This is mainly something you do to prevent important units like Broadsides or Crisis Suits to flee from loosing a drone or something. And Ld10 is nice for the times DoM comes around (in wich case you have a great use for the Fusion Blasters as well )

In order to re-roll your LD8 you need an ethereal, and while I agree with you in that what an ethereal does for a Tau army is amazing, the repercussions should he get killed are far too costly. Shadowsun presents an alternate way to boost your LD base, wich the Tau greatly needs IMO. Too many times have a unit of Broadsides fled the field after taking a single drone as a loss, and FWs on an objective untimely failed a LD check in the later turns of the game.

IMO Tau does indeed have an issue with Ld. Most armies these days have a lot of LD10 and/or Fearless, whilst even Tau veterans only have a meager LD of 8. In order to avoid disaster as soon as the bullets start flying, you have a choice between a W2 T3 model without a save to allow you to re-roll morale tests, but should he get killed you entire army must test at LD8 or fall back. Then you have the Stealthed 3W 3+ save model with a couple of great guns should the enemy close with you, with no drawbacks if she is killed.

Sure, Ethereals are nice, I also use them sometimes, but in a more competetive tournament setting they are just too vulnerable to risk taking.

Shadowsun isn't a beast either, but she is good fun and works really well when played correctly.

ok, I feel stupid, Isn't Eldrad T3S3? or am I off a codex or something...cause If he's not then theres a friend of mine who I need to rematch...cause He got ID by S6 wpns...(noob points for me for not checking my friend's codex first)

Yea the re-roll is nice, but the biggest weakness for that is the fact that an ethereal
A) is only T3 which means pretty much everyone under the sun has a basic/easily accessible gun that'll ID him
B) has NO SAVE (how hard is it to believe he's wearing a tau vest under all those robes?)
C) Commanders are 1+! so you don't even get the OPTION to take them INSTEAD

I am gong to feel silly saying this but...

You have to play Shadowsun like a ninja... What I mean is that you should be going after units that have less models than you have fingers on one hand...

Bike squads, Deff Koptas, Walkers, etc... Always keep her safe by denying shots, use JSJ to move away with cover that blocks LOS! She works really well if there is a piece of terrain that blocks LOS that she can skirt around.

Alternatively a LR cost more than 175 points, is 1 KP and will cripple the occupants on the virtue of now they have to walk... IMHO it is perfectly acceptable to Deep Strike her in to blow up a single LR. If she Dies, you had the more efficient trade and the KP are even. If she lives, great take out something else...

QuietOrkmi wrote:I am gong to feel silly saying this but...

You have to play Shadowsun like a ninja... What I mean is that you should be going after units that have less models than you have fingers on one hand...

Bike squads, Deff Koptas, Walkers, etc... Always keep her safe by denying shots, use JSJ to move away with cover that blocks LOS! She works really well if there is a piece of terrain that blocks LOS that she can skirt around.

Alternatively a LR cost more than 175 points, is 1 KP and will cripple the occupants on the virtue of now they have to walk... IMHO it is perfectly acceptable to Deep Strike her in to blow up a single LR. If she Dies, you had the more efficient trade and the KP are even. If she lives, great take out something else...

Or..... you could do the exact same thing for barely over half the cost with a couple TL fusion suits. Plus she has less than a 50% of actually wreaking a Landraider, so the odds fo getting an 'even trade' aren't all that good.

As Darkhound has repeatedly said, you're paying for a stealth field, transferable leadership, a pair of Fusion blasters, and some shield drones.
You will only ever use half of her abilities in a game. Either DS her and use her fusion and Shield drones, or use her in the backfield for her leadership and Stealth field. No matter how you use her, half of her abilities are largely wasted. All for the cost of an upgraded Hammerhead. That begs the question... WHY?

There are other options that fulfill her roles, except they're cheaper.

Ethereals are just bad though, IMO they're competing with Repentia for the '40ks worst unit award'.


But to answer the OPs question, I hate Shadowsun because she seems like a bureaucrat that just does what ethereals tell her to do, as evidenced by her taking the modern crappy equipment with a terrible loadout just because its 'new'. And also evidenced by her symbolically destroying Farsights methods (the whole statue thing), because he breached protocol, rather than try to incorperate new tactics into the Empire. IMO if she was a good 'O, then she'd have the common sense to take a decent loadout. Thats a lot of assumptions on my part, but its my gut feeling about the character. All the Tau characters suck to be honest (yes, including Farsight), but thats another story.


For Eldrad, he always wounds on 2s in combat (so Strength doesn't matter), hes always with a unit (often warlocks) to soak up most of the S6+ hits, and he only has a ~13% chance of failing that rerollable 3+ invuln, and hes the only elf thats toughness 4. So he's about as survivable as they come.

Creeping Dementia wrote:



But to answer the OPs question, I hate Shadowsun because she seems like a bureaucrat that just does what ethereals tell her to do, as evidenced by her taking the modern crappy equipment with a terrible loadout just because its 'new'. And also evidenced by her symbolically destroying Farsights methods (the whole statue thing), because he breached protocol, rather than try to incorperate new tactics into the Empire. IMO if she was a good 'O, then she'd have the common sense to take a decent loadout. Thats a lot of assumptions on my part, but its my gut feeling about the character. All the Tau characters suck to be honest (yes, including Farsight), but thats another story.


For Eldrad, he always wounds on 2s in combat (so Strength doesn't matter), hes always with a unit (often warlocks) to soak up most of the S6+ hits, and he only has a ~13% chance of failing that rerollable 3+ invuln, and hes the only elf thats toughness 4. So he's about as survivable as they come.

Well now i feel really stupid...cant believe i fell for that -.-
Well that brings me to the obvious follow up (which i will now say with impunity because sum1 higher up on the food chain than me ok'd it by replying )
What WOULD you run her with? Plasmas are my personal vote, just because they are god weapons for tau (who have no other easy to field hi shot AP2+ weapon except crisis suits for 20 POINTS A POP) and they're waaaay to overpriced as it is
Also I'm biased, cause I always run Fireknife (it's the best allrounder in my opinion, and I'm too poor to buy magnets and a drill)

dbsamurai wrote:ok, I feel stupid, Isn't Eldrad T3S3? or am I off a codex or something...cause If he's not then theres a friend of mine who I need to rematch...cause He got ID by S6 wpns...(noob points for me for not checking my friend's codex first)

Your friend should have known he was one of the few eldar that aren't T3: Phoenix Lords T4, Eldrad T4, Avartar T6, WraithGuard T6 and the WraithLord T8

dbsamurai wrote:

Creeping Dementia wrote:



But to answer the OPs question, I hate Shadowsun because she seems like a bureaucrat that just does what ethereals tell her to do, as evidenced by her taking the modern crappy equipment with a terrible loadout just because its 'new'. And also evidenced by her symbolically destroying Farsights methods (the whole statue thing), because he breached protocol, rather than try to incorperate new tactics into the Empire. IMO if she was a good 'O, then she'd have the common sense to take a decent loadout. Thats a lot of assumptions on my part, but its my gut feeling about the character. All the Tau characters suck to be honest (yes, including Farsight), but thats another story.


For Eldrad, he always wounds on 2s in combat (so Strength doesn't matter), hes always with a unit (often warlocks) to soak up most of the S6+ hits, and he only has a ~13% chance of failing that rerollable 3+ invuln, and hes the only elf thats toughness 4. So he's about as survivable as they come.

Well now i feel really stupid...cant believe i fell for that -.-
Well that brings me to the obvious follow up (which i will now say with impunity because sum1 higher up on the food chain than me ok'd it by replying )
What WOULD you run her with? Plasmas are my personal vote, just because they are god weapons for tau (who have no other easy to field hi shot AP2+ weapon except crisis suits for 20 POINTS A POP) and they're waaaay to overpriced as it is
Also I'm biased, cause I always run Fireknife (it's the best allrounder in my opinion, and I'm too poor to buy magnets and a drill)

For her price, something like dual assault 2 plasma rifles would work. Everything about her is experimental wargear, so GW could have a creative field day with her weaponry. So long as she had at least a range of 24 inches she'd practically be fixed.

yea that does sound accurate to what bothers everyone about her...since 24" is ALMOST pulse rifle range and is longer than any other infantry non heavy except missile pods...


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and yea farsight sucks: the only unique thing he brings is his "counts as monstrous creature in CC" ability, and his bonding knives being free...you can already field MORE suits than his "bodyguard" allows for 10pts less per model

The point of taking Farsight is not to get more suits cheaply, but vastly superior suits. Since his suits are bodguards, they can hardwire systems and take special issue items. Taking Farsight is about building a 7 Samurai list, and that's it. Farsight isn't bad himself, and when protected by 7 other bodies he can do a lot of damage in CC.

Farsight adds something to your list, and Shadowsun doesn't.

(and now we're getting off topic...mabye i should change this to a "why we hate tau special characters thread instead XD)
But too often I dont see people doing that. The most they do is give one guy a stim injector, or a failsafe detonator...I don't think I've ever seen a deathstar unit of Farsight bodyguards listed with anything fancier than that...maybe a CIB here, an AFP there, but never anything a commander cant do...


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An expensive suggestion I saw (and really drudging the bottom of the barrel for something to do with them) was to run Aun'va and Shadowsun together...I'm not really sure how effective that'd be but it was suggested their skills meshed well

You basically get to decide what units will hold with Re-rollable LD 10 and which ones flee Re-rollable LD7-8.

In addition get Aun'va killed and test on LD 10... those suits look much better on paper with furious charge, and preferred enemy.

9 S6 attacks, 75% hitting, 84% wound... 5 wounds at I4. May not seem like much but that is after you fire your guns.

DarkHound wrote:The point of taking Farsight is not to get more suits cheaply, but vastly superior suits. Since his suits are bodguards, they can hardwire systems and take special issue items. Taking Farsight is about building a 7 Samurai list, and that's it. Farsight isn't bad himself, and when protected by 7 other bodies he can do a lot of damage in CC.

Farsight adds something to your list, and Shadowsun doesn't.

He adds one bloated unit, and totally butchers the Force Org chart in the process. People don't hate Farsight for his suit or big bodyguard squad, hes actually reasonably priced if you factor in the free BKs. The problem is he makes the rest of the army suck by limiting our Heavy choices to 1 a peice, only being able to take 1 Piranha unit, and not being allowed any kroot. You're exchanging an effective Tau army for one big unit. No thanks. Tau have a tough enough time without handicapping ourselves on purpose.

As for the Aun'Va Shadowsun combo, sure it looks ok, but is it really worth 380pts just to make your suits into a mediocre CC unit?

Did you just use 'effective' and 'Tau' in a sentence without 'not'? I jest, I jest (not really).

You can build an effective army almost entirely with Battlesuits, and that is what Farsight does. (Does Farsight restrict how many Broadsides you can take? I don't have my codex with me.) Farsight is there soley for people who love Battlesuits, like Pedro is there for people who love Sternguard, or that Wolfborne guy for Fenresian Wolves. You've got to remember that this game isn't just about winning, and atleast Farsight has that saving grace.

With Farsight you can field 18 suits and himself... imagine ninja tau with that many suits, all specialized against a different playstyle...