Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi all.

Can a Dreadnought give a 50% cover to a Predator?

It all depends on line of sight.

If the Predator is blocking over 50% of the dreadnought when using line of sight of the vehicle/model firing at the dreadnought then yes it will give a cover save.

Vehicle cover saves are probably the number one most misunderstood rule in the game. I see this question all the time.
Anyways, as the above posters said you look from the firing model and base it on that. 5th ed did away with abstract cover saves, now its done on a TLoS case-by-case basis.

HellsGuardian316 wrote:If the Predator is blocking over 50% of the dreadnought when using line of sight of the vehicle/model firing at the dreadnought then yes it will give a cover save.

I'm looking exactly for the opposite situation.

Of course it all depends on LoS but.. in the "perfectly in front" situation, a regular Dreadnought will be considered covering the 50% of the Preds?

*facepalms*

Yep, completely misread that with my usual "ou ou I can answer diz wun"

In which case, if the dread is blocking 50% of the predator from the line of sight of the model/vehicle shooting it then yes, the predator will get a cover save from the Dread. If the firing model/vehicle can see over 50% despite the dread then the predator will not get a cover save from the dread.

Toban - noone can say except for you. I suggest you take a dreadnought, put it in front of a predator and try it.

ANY questions relating to True LOS and cover end the same way - a forum is not a good place to determine the answer.

On flat ground, with the dred directly infront of the pred (ie. touching the front of the hull with the dred's base with the dread facing in the exact same direction), I'd say yes. Anything other than this would have to be looked at by both parties that are playing and if its a cllose call, either ask an impartial person or modify the save given.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Toban - noone can say except for you.

... and your opponent.

True enough, but in the context of this thread where Toban is well defined and opponent is undefined (not even definitely actual, possibly only theoretical) using simply "you" was the easiest method....

It would be nice to see these stickied, but theyre not read in the general forum so I doubt it would help....

Let me ask you this.

Everyone that I play with is saying that drop pods offer a cover save no matter what. ie if you are behind a drop pod you get a cover save.

Now lets go over this.

Speeder 12 inches from a drop pod w/ a dread behind it.

The guy says i get a 4+ save. All his driver can see is the two exhaust ports. The assault cannon doesn't even see anything.

Elitest Jerk wrote:Let me ask you this.

Everyone that I play with is saying that drop pods offer a cover save no matter what. ie if you are behind a drop pod you get a cover save.

Tell them that cover, at least vehicular cover, doesn't work that way. As has been mentioned in the thread already, get down and actually look at it.

Elitest Jerk wrote:
Now lets go over this.

Speeder 12 inches from a drop pod w/ a dread behind it.

The guy says i get a 4+ save. All his driver can see is the two exhaust ports. The assault cannon doesn't even see anything.

Are speeders vehicles? If they are, then you draw LOS from the weapon and he gets nothing. If, as an example, they were not... then you draw LOS from the eyes and see only the decorative ports and not the hull and he gets nothing anyway.

Drop pods give cover just like any vehicle in the game. Walkers gain cover just like any vehicle in the game.
What's confusing here?

I think some of the confusion on the drop pod thing comes from the fact that some players have gone with a house rule to get around the 'doors up or down?' issue on drop pods whereby they just assume that you can always see through the pod, but the target will get a cover save.

If that's the way you're playing, then yes, the dread would be a valid target, and would get a cover save.

If you're playing by the actual rules, you would draw LOS through the pod in the usual fashion, giving cover to the target if it is sufficiently obscured.

I had a situation pop up in a tournament where a player wanted to deny me a cover save when firing through a window. His tank was about six inches away from a wall, he wanted to fire through the window at my tank about six inches away from the wall. He kept saying that he had a clear line of sight of the whole tank through the window however the wall still covered more then 50% of my tank. He kept insisting that he could see my whole tank until the judge ruled that the intevening terrain still covered 50% of my model and granted me a cover save.

If he did infact have clear LoS to the whole tank then the judge was wrong in that case. You look from the model's eye for the vehicle's gun barrel and determine if 50% of the vehicle is blocked from sight.

It is entirely possible for you to be able to see the entire facing of the tank through the window, despite the wall (when looked at from above)covering more than 50% of the facing. This is because you are NOT firing from the entire tank width, you are firing from a point (the weapon barrel) which is narrower than the window.

You should have gotten down and checked, generally no need to get a judge involved as this is fairly clear most of the time.

What about the unit?

It's not each models view. It's the units view. You can't just fire one weapon, you have to fire everything. So even the bolters have to fire, even thought they can't hurt it. So if the unit as a whole could only see 50% then the cover save is good.

No, no you dont..

You can elect which weapons you want to fire.

Each model must fire as much as possible.
It is not required that each model fire, however.

Elitest Jerk wrote:You can't just fire one weapon, you have to fire everything.

This is incorrect. Have a look at page 16 - "Which models can fire?"

BlueDagger wrote:If he did infact have clear LoS to the whole tank then the judge was wrong in that case. You look from the model's eye for the vehicle's gun barrel and determine if 50% of the vehicle is blocked from sight.

To clarify the quoted bit above.

The judge used this rule:
Page 22: Firing through units or area terrain: If a model fires through the gaps between some elements of area terrain (such as between two trees in a wood) or through the gaps between models <cut>

The judge forgot this rule:
Page 62: Vehicles are not obscured simply for being inside area terrain. The 50% rule given above takes precedence.

Although, technically, I can see a loophole for rules lawyering "but he's firing through area terrain, I'm not in it"

There is no rules loophole at all, the 50% rule MUST be fulfilled in order to give a cover save.

Essentially if the tank could be clearly seen from the barrel of the weapon then there is no cover save applicable.

I'm going to call this bs on choosing weapons.

So if I have a 10 man squad shooting at a 10 man squad that has some cover.

You are saying that my 4 guys that can see over 50% of the unit that has some cover can fire their bolters so that the unit can't claim a cover save?

Elitest Jerk wrote:I'm going to call this bs on choosing weapons.

So if I have a 10 man squad shooting at a 10 man squad that has some cover.

You are saying that my 4 guys that can see over 50% of the unit that has some cover can fire their bolters so that the unit can't claim a cover save?

Try reading the rules, specifically the Main Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, Page 16, Chapter: "The Shooting Phase", Subheading: "Check Line of Sight & Pick a Target", Sub-Subheading: "Which Models Can Fire?", ISBN 978-1841548753, Product Code: 60 04 01 99 020.

A player may choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers...

Your name suits you well, just try not to be wrong when living up to it, eh?

nosferatu1001 wrote:There is no rules loophole at all, the 50% rule MUST be fulfilled in order to give a cover save.

Essentially if the tank could be clearly seen from the barrel of the weapon then there is no cover save applicable.

First and foremost, I am NOT arguing FOR the loophole. I'm just stating how one COULD argue the loophole.
Page 22 gives the exceptions to when cover saves apply or do not apply for infantry shooting at infantry.
Page 62 gives the exceptions to the exceptions and the general infantry rules.

On page 22, firing through units or area terrain is specifically different from (being fired upon while) inside area terrain. Page 62 states that the model must be at least 50% covered, and as a separate entry states that being inside area terrain does not give cover. If I were to rules lawyer the situation, I would say that the exceptions on page 62 does not specify if you are shooting through area terrain, because shooting into and through area terrain are specifically different situations covered by different rulings on page 22.

However, what I would, personally, consider to be the rules as intended is that shooting through area terrain does not give special cover - but that shooting through units does! How it is written is, unsurprisingly, sloppy - mostly because GW likes to divide the rule sets into several sections (why not detail all forms of cover saves in the cover saves section?)

Interpreting whether shooting through a unit or area terrain, according to RAW, actually does or does not give cover takes a better man than me. The spirit of the rules are very clear regarding units on (or near) page 22 - units are moving entities and obscure clear line of sight regardless how they are statically placed on the board - for static area terrain, I have no clue.

Elitest Jerk wrote:I'm going to call this bs on choosing weapons.

So if I have a 10 man squad shooting at a 10 man squad that has some cover.

You are saying that my 4 guys that can see over 50% of the unit that has some cover can fire their bolters so that the unit can't claim a cover save?

You may "call BS" on it, but you are wrong.
Please reasd the rulebook quotes you have been provided.

Ok now lets go to the point of who gets a cover save and the way cover is given.

If the majority of your sqaud give a cover save then a cover save is given. It doesn't matter if the 4 guys I mentioned are the only ones firing. It's to the squad.

So if I have a 10 man squad and only 1 can see through the window then the vehicle gets a cover save. Because the other members of that squad do not have LOS to it.

You can't pick what rules to go by and what rules to ignore.

So once again.

10 man squad, 10 man squad in partial cover.

Can you deside to only fire enough of your guys to deny a cover save?

Elitest Jerk wrote:Can you deside to only fire enough of your guys to deny a cover save?

Yes

No, it isnt.

Please, PLEASE reread the rules: when you choose what members of the squad are firing at an enemy you check, for ONLY the models firing, whether you will grant a cover save.

Net result: you can choose to fire only those weapons which do not grant a cover save.

Ok I've put the document to show what I'm talking about.

I remember the rule book having 2 examples. One of who gets a cover save and who doesn't. It didn't have a third one if you only fired some of your guys.