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I generally have a tendency to get distracted by the coolest looking miniatures, and often will purchase them at the expense of playability... so, this time, I've decided to go with a new tactic

I would be eternally grateful if some experience guard players (or those that have played against them) would tell me your favorite IG artillery unit, and why, and (if you have the time) how you use it

That's pretty much all I have to say, other than thank you in advance!!

Griffon, Griffon, Griffon!!!

I absolutely love my Artillery, I use a full set of Basilisks all the time in my face and play them as Griffons for some re-rolling scatter goodness!

Although the best tactic seems to be to not put them in squadrons so you can spread the love with each shot!

Plus, at 75 points a vehicle they are not expensive and when they are spread out, they are harder to neutralize! Another good tactic I learned on Dakka was to take two and put one in each corner of your deployment zone so you maximize where they can shoot.

Basilisks aside though, its pretty hard to go past a manticore or two, although they are pricey, they always love you in the morning when you're fighting against hordes!

I don't leave home without my basilisk. I like how it can kill anything in the game, and anything (hiding) on the board. It's obviously great against infantry, and roll-two-pick-the-highest pens and hits-on-side-armour barrage shots make it reliable vs. vehicles. Min range is an issue for barrage, but you can fire direct (even while moving) and ignore it.

I use board edges, terrain, and bubblewrap to shield it from deepstrikers/outflankers, and I use my own vehicles or terrain to block LoS. If the enemy gets his whole army close (which obviously doesn't happen all the time), or the primary target gets close, I switch over to direct fire. Once in awhile i put it with minimum protection away from my main force so that it's more assured of barrage on the enemy main force. Depends on the tactical situation (terrain/opponent/mission).

I've heard a couple of other people talk about how good the griffin is as well, what makes them so fantastic? Heh, and more than that, what makes them better than other artillery out there?

joshoftheforest wrote:I've heard a couple of other people talk about how good the griffin is as well, what makes them so fantastic? Heh, and more than that, what makes them better than other artillery out there?

Cheap, accurate, wounds most infantry on 2+.

murdog wrote:I don't leave home without my basilisk. I like how it can kill anything in the game, and anything (hiding) on the board. It's obviously great against infantry, and roll-two-pick-the-highest pens and hits-on-side-armour barrage shots make it reliable vs. vehicles. Min range is an issue for barrage, but you can fire direct (even while moving) and ignore it.

You're wrong, the Basilisk stinks compared to almost ALL the other options. You're probably just one of those Guard players who had Basilisks from the old codex and didn't want to fess up the cash for Forge World or the Manticore. Almost everyone would tell you the Basilisk is out-classed by the Medusa, the Griffon, or the Manticore.

My personal favorite is the Colossus. If you play a lot against space marines which is the army of choice for 90% of people around here >_> its wounds on a 2+ no cover saves. It is the best for sticking it against space marines.

I have the Forge World kit and it is a beauty, and it can easily proxy as a Medusa unlike Jihadnik's Basilisks which I personally would refuse to play it since its so obviously NOT a Griffon - unless he at least saws off the barrels. People should just fess up and get the Forge World models.

Griffons are a good choice, for antihorde work.
the Manticore does that, plus can put the hurt on vehicles too.

DorianGray wrote:
You're wrong, the Basilisk stinks compared to almost ALL the other options. You're probably just one of those Guard players who had Basilisks from the old codex and didn't want to fess up the cash for Forge World or the Manticore. Almost everyone would tell you the Basilisk is out-classed by the Medusa, the Griffon, or the Manticore.

But why is it so bad, and why are the others so much better? If you havn't guessed yet, I'm just learning 40k, and would love some simple reasons why or why not...

So, the real benefit of artillery vs. russes is that they do basically the same job, except they ignore cover about 2/3ds of the time, and they're cheaper.

I have run artillery in nearly every game I've played, and most of my experience comes from the basilisk and the manticore.

The more I play with artillery, though, the less I've found I like it. I was originally brought in by the promise of a basilisk pounding a squad of anything flat a turn. However, reality doesn't make that so.

The first problem with all artillery is that you still have to hit your target. At best, you're looking at hitting about half the time (as in, hitting proper, or scattering 5" or less). Furthermore, and this has been the real killer for me, once you hit you still have to wound. 1's are inevitable when you throw around lots of dice, which means artillery usually does a poor job of wiping units clear away. Note that this is also true of anti-vehicular artillery. S10 ordnance can be great, but that in no way guarantees that you're rolling above a 4 on 2 dice when you're targeting that land raider.

As such, I've consistently found my artillery's damage underwhelming. When it does all work properly, it's fantastic and spectacular, but most of the time, it really doesn't seem to do all that much or make a crucial difference.

As for what to take, I don't think I'd ever take anything other than the manticore or the basilisk myself. The deathstrike is insanely unreliable, while the griffon is only good against targets that lots of stuff in your list is already good at (hordes of lasguns or heavy flamers on chimeras). Meanwhile, the medusa is just pants on account of it never getting to shoot indirectly and thus always making shots against front armor with no chance of ignoring cover.

The collossus has the potential to be cool, but once again you're still talking about hitting and wounding, and if it's actually a threat to your marine opponent, that just means they're going to be taken out by drop pod sternguard right away (or whatever). Honestly, this has been the biggest dissapointment I've seen. It promises to be awesome, what with wiping out a marine squad a turn regardless from cover, but I have never seen a battle report where it was critically useful. Most of the time, like most artillery, it seems to miss a lot and cause an overall underwhelming amount of damage (I'm sure I'm going to get a lot of "Well, this one time..." comments "refuting" the above).

As for the basilisk, I still like it as it still has great potential against vehicles, while being able to tackle infantry out of cover. Also, it's the least worst artillery option for a lot of things artillery struggles with (MCs, for example). As for the manticore, it promises to be death incarnate against hordes, but I haven't found myself facing a lot of hordes (and once again, hordes can be taken down cheaper elsewhere). Also they advertise being good against vehicles, but once you have to start rolling several phases of dice, their quality starts to wane (you need to hit AND penetrate AND have your opponent fail cover AND roll well on the penetration chart). That and there are some things that they're just plain old cruddy against (like wave serpents), or are horribly overcosted against (like ork buggies).

Yes, the whole point of HS slots is to do damage, and yes, artillery is the most cost effective way to do the most damage in the most circumstances. That said, I consider it a much less necessary part of any good guard list as I once did due to years of mediocre performance.

Just fess up and get the forgeworld model eh...? wow, what an objective analysis there mate!

Josh, now that you're learning 40k, you also get the pleasure of learning about fanboys who don't know how to be civil on the internet!

I'm not going to bother refuting what Dorian said about how we are all wrong and he is right...what he is talking about it seems, is whether you have the spare cash to buy the models or not.

It all depends on what you're playing against and how many points you've got to spend. I am one of those players who love my Imperial Guard, although I came back into the hobby in 5th edition, I never played the editions between 2nd and 4th. Regardless, Basilisks are not bad, they are just not always the correct choice, like anything in life, they have a time and a place...like civility...

If you want to kill heavilly armoured troops like marines or entrenched troops then the Basilisk is for you. If you're playing against orks, then a Griffon is more suited because its much cheaper, and your not using a cannon to shoot at flys. You can use Basilisks to detroy vehicles as well, but there are cheaper ways to do it.

I would say, go and grab a copy of the IG codex to see all the rundowns of what the artillery options are and then, once you've settled on a few then jump back and dakka and ask us, how best to use them. That way you've got a sound base to start from.

As for not playing against someone because they don't have the exact model...that's just lame...about as lame as not answering someones question and just parroting someone elses answer back at them...

Good luck with your enquiries Josh, if you have any more questions PM me and I'll respond personally to you. There's nothing I like better than talking IG because they are awesome!

DorianGray wrote: You're wrong, the Basilisk stinks compared to almost ALL the other options. You're probably just one of those Guard players who had Basilisks from the old codex and didn't want to fess up the cash for Forge World or the Manticore. Almost everyone would tell you the Basilisk is out-classed by the Medusa, the Griffon, or the Manticore.

Stinks. LOL. Good one.

I'm probably a commander who wants the cheap, all-purpose basilisk instead of higher-priced (mostly specialized) pieces. I only want one piece of artillery in my balanced list, and for my needs nothing in there beats the basilisk. I would say the only outclassing going on is the Griffon being outclassed by everything else, but hey, we can make it up as we go along. Not to say it's not a great heavy mortar, because it is. But you're probably right, I mean you probably have the new kit and have tried them all out a whole bunch of times, and came to that reasoned opinion after thoughtful analysis.

Hmm, yeah, I would have written a shorter answer than I did if Ailaros's response had been there when I started typing! That's some good gravy there...Now I'm starting to wonder...!

I like the Colossus and the Basilisk in tournament play. When two of the three missions are about objectives, and the third mission might have objectives as a secondary, the Colossus makes it very difficult on your opponent. Crack his transports with Vendettas and/or meltas, then shell him to death with no cover saves and AP3.

The Basilisk is a great all around tank for bargain points. It can roll on from reserve and direct fire. In barrage mode it hits side armor on vehicles (I leave Land Raiders and Russ tanks to melta vets). It's AP3 as well, and while it won't instant kill T5 it can reach anywhere on the board.

Both tanks, paired with a psyker battle squad, can run survivors off objectives. Both tanks have such great range that they go deep in my zone and don't crowd my advancing elements. Those same elements do a good job of screening the artillery against incoming fire.

Krak_kirby wrote: Both tanks have such great range that they go deep in my zone and don't crowd my advancing elements. Those same elements do a good job of screening the artillery against incoming fire.

QFT. My second pie is the LRBT. The BC is like the the Earthshaker's little brother: not quite as sophisticated or deadly, but built like a brick and can still kill everything.

One thing I forgot to mention about my useage, that Ailaros' comments reminded me of. He makes excellent points about the deficiencies of this capability.

This is dependant on the enemy dispositions and the tactical situation, and sometimes irrelevent. But, especially in the early game, I often target the centre of an enemy formation and not the unit I'd really like dead. What I really need out of them is hits, so I try to maximize the chances of one, hit or scatter. I also pack alot of other long-range firepower in the form of heavy weapons, and that helps with the problem of squad remnants. Because he's right, often the pie won't wipe out the squad, and often it scatters anyways (though scatters still sometimes hit, especially with los granting -3").

I think more pie is good pie. I bring an LRD at 2000 to fill out HS.

I'm not a big fan of pie and scatter roll to begin with, but in my experience (played 2nd and 4th ed. guard, back when they kind of sucked) The Griffin was nice because it was so cheap, but everyone feared the Basilisk off in the far corner lobbing cheap mass destruction from a distance. Both are pretty easy to side-shot though with flanking, and they just can't hold up. In the Basilisk's defense, it does have the option to direct fire, and it can kill pretty much any vehicle it hits... so long as you hit. I think Basilisks were origionally invented for the 'epic' or 'space marine' games where everything was huge, including range. On a constricted 4x6 board for 40k artillery is kind of nerfed by the limits of the board. Who cares if something can shoot 120" or more when the closest target is just 2 turns away from charging you from the start. That's probably why the Griffin is the better one nowadays. At least its cheap, so if it's killed off early hey at least it got to lob a couple of shells, and you just don't care. Still... When I played guard I wouldn't even consider using more than one of them. I love my Russ and need all the HS slots I can get. Now that flanking has become a big factor, they get even less viable when my 40 point warwalker pops out right next to you and kills your big expensive toy out of nowhere.

I'm pretty happy with my Basilisks but agree that you really shouldn't rely excessively on artillery to carry the day. They're affordable and ultimately expendable firepower assets for supporting your main force. Sometimes it's really handy to have a few S9 Ap3 blasts landing in some general area, or even just the threat of it.

The powergaming answer is the hydra flak tank..but that's not what you asked for.

My favorite russ is the exterminator. Most people look at me like I've lost my mind when I say that...but honestly it's a great russ for the points. The basic russ and any pie plate variants are good at killing infantry. It's kinda meh at killing light vehicles. The exterminator lets me face off against a larger variety of armies. Mech Eldar? The autocannon shots are golden. IG? Razor spam? Still good. Infantry? Nob bikers? Assault terminators? Still good. It's never great...but it's rarely a useless russ. It's shots at least can always hurt something. And it puts out a lot of shots whether it moves or not.

I also hate when there's only 1 or 2 models on an objective, and I'm shooting a pieplate to kill one guy. The exterminator doesn't have that problem. The gun being twin-linked and 48" range also makes the gun rather reliable.

You also can't go wrong with the leman russ executioner. Same theory as the exterminator, just stupid expensive. Unlike the exterminator, the shots from an executioner can wreck entire squads of infantry by itself. It's also armor value 11 in the rear.

Josh of the Forest,

I apologize for my earlier outbrust, I was obviously out of line.

Here is copy and paste from the Imperial Guard Tactica compilation about the Basilisk.

" Speaking of expensive generalists, we have the Basilisk. This artillery piece pays the points
for being decent at everything but not as outstanding as any of the specialists. Considering
that we have the option to pay a few points more or less for the much better specialist
artillery pieces this leaves the Basilisk without a role in standard 40k games. A crippling
weakness of this vehicle is it's huge 36 inches minimum range when firing indirectly, meaning
you will soon have to be firing directly for your tank to continue to contribute to the game,
for such a fragile and expensive vehicle this is dangerous and you could have just bought
yourself a Leman Russ and saved yourself the hassle. For a vehicle that will find itself firing
directly a lot you still have to pay extra to make it closed topped, bumping the price up even
further. In fact, this pretty much mandatory upgrade makes the Basilisk on par with the most
expensive ordnance battery artillery piece while being decidedly average in all other respects.
The Basilisk’s only stand out feature is the huge maximum range of its gun, which is wasted
in all but Apocalypse games. I would advise against bringing the Basilisk in standard 40k
games as all the other artillery pieces present better options in specialist roles and the
Manticore is a much more impressive generalist vehicle. Using a company of Basilisks in
Apocalypse games is still fun, but unfortunately it's the only use I'd consider for them now."

Medusa and Manticores are better at killing tanks, Griffon and Colossus are better at killing infantry and MEQs. Basilisks are "meh" Firing directly is BAD because the opponent will get cover saves and intervening model 4+ saves which defeats the point of ordinance.

But yes Hydra Flak Tanks are very very good artillery ;-)

The simple fact is because all the other artillery kits are Forge World and the Manticore only came out very recently, all the Imperial Guard players still have Basilisks.

Raxmei wrote:I'm pretty happy with my Basilisks but agree that you really shouldn't rely excessively on artillery to carry the day. They're affordable and ultimately expendable firepower assets for supporting your main force. Sometimes it's really handy to have a few S9 Ap3 blasts landing in some general area, or even just the threat of it.

I think the "threat" is more viable than the actual damage, as a pie plate possibility really screws some armies but barely dents others ("ooh you got 2 models out of my mob of 30!") It forces hordes to spread out. More a psychehammer approach than a mathhammer one. They put the fear of WHAT IF on the scatter die into people and force their hand into moving into positions not particularly ideal just to stay apart from each other. I think 1 Basi is enough to make any player of any army worry a bit about clumping, which is an often tactic used against my zoom-in-fire-and-zoom-away approach. Eldar use Fire Prisms and Tempest Launchers for exactly the same reason. You gotta force his hand. Indirect fire is a great way to discourage players from taking advantage of terrain and just feel forced to advance or just sit there waiting for a beating when that scatter die comes up right. Play to people's fear of being hit but unable to hit back (I use the Death Jester with a Veil for this same reason. People hate something that can hit them but they can't hit back... artillery works the same way on people's heads) You don't need a lot of it, but having one is good enough to disrupt squad cohesion and ability to use cover. Psychehammer baby! screw the math just mess with the dude's head!

Raxmei wrote:They're affordable and ultimately expendable firepower assets for supporting your main force.

This is actually the most succinct single statement on the matter. Artillery are cheap, expendable support. You get what you pay for as far as damage is concerned, they're easy to kill, and they're not for main action. That said, as a support unit, there are definitely worse things out there, especially because...

Guitardian wrote:I think the "threat" is more viable than the actual damage

Forcing your opponent to move or deploy strangely is easily as valuable as any damage (or lack thereof) that they do. If you find that your artillery doesn't actually have that much of a psychological effect on your opponents (as in the case of my local metagame), then there is less reason to take them. But if you're playing against a bunch of teenage marine players and you spend the pre-game chit-chat reinforcing how your basilisk can wipe a squad a turn, but not if they're hiding immobile in cover, well... I'd take 3...

joshoftheforest wrote:I generally have a tendency to get distracted by the coolest looking miniatures, and often will purchase them at the expense of playability... so, this time, I've decided to go with a new tactic

I would be eternally grateful if some experience guard players (or those that have played against them) would tell me your favorite IG artillery unit, and why, and (if you have the time) how you use it

That's pretty much all I have to say, other than thank you in advance!!

I am currently running 3 Basilisks in my list. Why?

Even with full 2d6 scatter (if firing blind.) they will hit, and hit hard. They can knock out vehicles, and infantry alike.

More to the point: I think some of the newer artillery pieces are a bit broken, (comparable to Valk and Vendetta level of broken.) I want to play IG, the way that most IG fight. Massed infantry platoons, with heavy artillery (basilisks) backing them up.

So that's exactly how I play.

3 Basilisks with closed compartments = 320 points. They've bought their points back every game so far.

Che-Vito wrote:

joshoftheforest wrote:I generally have a tendency to get distracted by the coolest looking miniatures, and often will purchase them at the expense of playability... so, this time, I've decided to go with a new tactic

I would be eternally grateful if some experience guard players (or those that have played against them) would tell me your favorite IG artillery unit, and why, and (if you have the time) how you use it

That's pretty much all I have to say, other than thank you in advance!!

I am currently running 3 Basilisks in my list. Why?

Even with full 2d6 scatter (if firing blind.) they will hit, and hit hard. They can knock out vehicles, and infantry alike.

More to the point: I think some of the newer artillery pieces are a bit broken, (comparable to Valk and Vendetta level of broken.) I want to play IG, the way that most IG fight. Massed infantry platoons, with heavy artillery (basilisks) backing them up.

So that's exactly how I play.

3 Basilisks with closed compartments = 320 points. They've bought their points back every game so far.

in a Squadron, or seprately?

Artillery are pretty straight forward, and all of them are basically what they're made out to be in the fluff descriptions. What will be more valuable to you is understanding what you need from your artillery.

For me personally, I don't like conventional ways of dealing with a Landraider (or other AV13+ vehicles). Because they are conventional, your opponent expects and prepares for Meltaguns getting within 6-12". That's why I like the Medusa; Landraiders are actually more vulnerable at range than Rhinos to it, as they are easier to hit and harder to get cover for. I just need to reiterate: S10, AP1, 2D6 pen, 48" range. You can get a centimeter of the edge of that small blast template on a Rhino and still wreck it (about 35% chance, although more like 50 if you will settle for Immobilized). Once you can eat your opponent's toughest tanks at 48", it is easy to get units that take care of everything else (heavy weapons teams, Hydras, Manticores, whatever).

The other piece I like is the Colossus because I think having to dig your opponents out of cover with Guard is hard. Most armies have a CC specialist for that, but Guard have only guns. Colossi are easy to protect, as they fire indirectly at up to 240". Just stick it in a back corner and surround it with stuff. Oh, and never forget pinning at -1 Ld. That is something your opponent will never be comfortable with, which is also why I like the Medusa. Both of them do things that put your opponent out of his comfort zone. His most fortified tank's armor is irrelevant, and his infantry are always vulnerable.

I like the Griffon in smaller points games for its sheer effectiveness against any infantry target. I like the Manticore and Basalisk because they are such good generalists, Basalisk leaning towards heavy infantry while the Manticore likes hordes more. If you have an entire army of generalists it behooves you to have all generalists so that you can use any of your army's elements for any task. If you have an army that is made up of specialised components working seperately simultaneously, then it is more beneficial to have specialist units that don't need support.

DorianGray wrote:

murdog wrote:I don't leave home without my basilisk. I like how it can kill anything in the game, and anything (hiding) on the board. It's obviously great against infantry, and roll-two-pick-the-highest pens and hits-on-side-armour barrage shots make it reliable vs. vehicles. Min range is an issue for barrage, but you can fire direct (even while moving) and ignore it.

You're wrong, the Basilisk stinks compared to almost ALL the other options. You're probably just one of those Guard players who had Basilisks from the old codex and didn't want to fess up the cash for Forge World or the Manticore. Almost everyone would tell you the Basilisk is out-classed by the Medusa, the Griffon, or the Manticore.

My personal favorite is the Colossus. If you play a lot against space marines which is the army of choice for 90% of people around here >_> its wounds on a 2+ no cover saves. It is the best for sticking it against space marines.

I have the Forge World kit and it is a beauty, and it can easily proxy as a Medusa unlike Jihadnik's Basilisks which I personally would refuse to play it since its so obviously NOT a Griffon - unless he at least saws off the barrels. People should just fess up and get the Forge World models.

I disagree. The Colossus unlike any other artillery gun cannot fire directly, so as soon as the Marines get under your guns (i.e. around the time they are finally out of their transports), you have nothing to shoot at.

The basilisk isn't bad at all, considering how cheap it is. Placed in a table corner and say wrapped with some infantry, they can reach large portions of the board whether directly or indirectly. Medusas are also good at only 10 points more, but they are a bit short-ranged. So you must decide if +1S/-1AP is worth superior range and indirect fire.

I think one key thing to remember is that you're hopefully not fielding only a single big gun. (This is kind of implicit in Darkhound's post) At least 2--either on Russes or on chimera chassis or both--so they can compliment each other.

I'm very tempted by the colossus, but only if I also had an exterminator or demolisher or something that can compensate for its lack of direct-fire at mid range. I find for some reason (not sure why) that a basilisk and a vanilla russ also work well together. If you've got a manticore, I think you'd also want something with AP3 or better to go with it, to threaten the 3+ save troops who are pretty much going to sneer at manticores no matter how many shots it gets. And, of course, hydras go with everything.

If I have to choose one and one only, it's the Colossus. Wounds most infantry on a 2+, AP3 and no cover. Sure, it's Barrage only and has a 24" minimum range. I still cannot recall a game where I didn't have something to shoot at. I also bought the FW Bombard, but converted it onto a Chimera hull.

Biggest problem us IG players have is we have too many choices in Heavy Support!!

manitcore. Just looks awsome, and the one stop solution to a green tide. Shame no squadroning tho.

DorianGray wrote:
Here is copy and paste from the Imperial Guard Tactica compilation about the Basilisk.

A crippling
weakness of this vehicle is it's huge 36 inches minimum range when firing indirectly...
Manticore is a much more impressive generalist vehicle."

What Imperial Guard Tactica? Where did you get this from? Your answer is to recommend using something that can ONLY fire indirectly at 24+ range as an alternative? I can hide in the corner with my 2 Bassies and hit about anything I want to. Things getting within 36" range of my Bassies is why I have 1500+ more points worth of troops just laying around. The manticore is pretty awesome, but as they are only AP4, it falls into a niche category.

DorianGray wrote:
Medusa and Manticores are better at killing tanks, Griffon and Colossus are better at killing infantry and MEQs. Basilisks are "meh" Firing directly is BAD because the opponent will get cover saves and intervening model 4+ saves which defeats the point of ordinance.

Medusae appear to be Ordinance (unless armybuilder is lying to me, but they'd never do that....right?), so they suffer from every drawback that the basilisk does. I'd rather have an LRD and not be scared of leaving its front exposed, and if I was taking a Griffon, I'd take a Manticore instead.

DorianGray wrote:
But yes Hydra Flak Tanks are very very good artillery ;-)

I'm not entirely sure about that, but I've never used them, so I'll make the assumption you could be right.

DorianGray wrote:
The simple fact is because all the other artillery kits are Forge World and the Manticore only came out very recently, all the Imperial Guard players still have Basilisks.

Is that a simple fact? I started IG post 5th ed release, so I think that means that I don't just have my two basilisks laying around from the good ol' days. I also have a scratch built Manticore. Scratchbuilding something plausible takes surprisingly little effort and can still look really good. The reason why you don't see the other units is because of the fact that they're sub-optimal.

daedalus wrote:

DorianGray wrote:
Medusa and Manticores are better at killing tanks, Griffon and Colossus are better at killing infantry and MEQs. Basilisks are "meh" Firing directly is BAD because the opponent will get cover saves and intervening model 4+ saves which defeats the point of ordinance.

Medusae appear to be Ordinance (unless armybuilder is lying to me, but they'd never do that....right?), so they suffer from every drawback that the basilisk does.

DorianGray meant "barrage" rather than "ordinance."

A barrage weapon can deny a target its cover save from intervening models with an indirect shot. A medusa can never do that.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

DorianGray meant "barrage" rather than "ordinance."

A barrage weapon can deny a target its cover save from intervening models with an indirect shot. A medusa can never do that.

Yeah, but I thought another one of the major "drawbacks" from the cited "tactica" was that firing directly is bad because of the exposure to the enemy that you are allowing. I believe the exact quote was "could have just bought
yourself a Leman Russ and saved yourself the hassle." But as long as you're just firing them at vehicles, I'm fine with that. All I was getting at is that the moment you point it at anything else, it's just about as bad as a Basilisk (firing directly). If you're just going to fire it at vehicles though, the Manticore is probably a better way to go.