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I don't play CSM, but I was wondering if it was possible to have a list with Rubric Marines as the only troops and infantry based model?

It would do very badly against most armies, only being acceptable against some MEQs. Essentially, you're paying 23(?) pts/model for AP3 bolters and an invulnerable save - if you're playing against, say, a horde of orks or IG, the bolters are useless. The inv save is only useful when you are shot at by AP1-3 weapons, and aren't in cover anyway. Add to that, the S&P rule, the lack of cc weapons/any charging bonus, and no powerfists or special weapons . . . yeah, thousand sons are the worst troops unit in the book. I flogged mine a bit after 5th edition came out.

If you do use them, take rhinos with combi-meltas, and meltabombs on the (shockingly expensive) sorcerers. You will ultimately be relying on a lot of non-troops units to carry the load. My advice is to take 3 HS choices, and at least some elites (terminators would be good, MoT helps them) and full HQ (probably daemon princes to add combat punch).

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:It would do very badly against most armies, only being acceptable against some MEQs. Essentially, you're paying 23(?) pts/model for AP3 bolters and an invulnerable save - if you're playing against, say, a horde of orks or IG, the bolters are useless.

Don't forget you have to pay 60pts for the sorcerer + the pts for the mandatory psychic power

Finally, an interesting thread!

Well, let's put it this way: can you build an Eldar army entirely of Fire Dragons? Ignoring that they aren't Troops, yes you could it just wouldn't be very efficient or effective. Fire Dragons, like Thousand Sons, have a very niche role with broader, less efficient applications. Fire Dragons kill tanks, but they are at their best when killing big, heavily armored tanks. Thousand Sons kill infantry, but they are at their best when catching 3+s out in the open.

Thousand Sons won't work as the only Troops in a CSM army, and the biggest reason for this is that they're bad in close combat. They don't carry two close combat weapons, which is the saving grace of the CSM. Chaos is not a shooty army, and utterly lacks long ranged shooting outside of the Heavy Support section. We get by on our close combat and close ranged shooting, so the very concept of Thousand Sons (always shooting at 24" and surviving long ranged return fire) is counter productive to making a strong army.

Can they work? Yes, in small quantities when positioned with the care of a master watch maker. Being able to cripple any squad of Marines that ventures out of cover with your 38" range is a very powerful tool, both psycholically and physically, but they aren't efficient enough to base a take-all-comers army on.

Ah, well that is disappointing. I kind of prefer their fluff over other factions of Chaos. Their 5e codex isn't out yet...right?

The CSM codex was built as a tweener, like the Ork's. It came it in 4th Edition, but was built for 5th. Don't expect a new book any time soon.

Goddamnit

I am going to let you know that you can play a pure 1k sons army but you would have an easier time mixing in regular CSMs it at least gives them a chance. Like others have said they suck in HtH and have an issue with little to no AT. I like them though and have won a good bit of games with them. They do the worst against horde though.

A friend of mine runs a Sons army and finds it very hit or miss. Squads have to be in Rhino's or they get shot up quickly and he always has a LR with Termies (2 at 2K or over) and 2 Daemon Princes for support.
Tzeentch himself rules his games as his inv save has proved mighty fickle at times but its always good for a giggle.

There are 2 Dust Bucket players in my area, one has quit or only does doubles tourney with a Khorne player 'for fun'...while the other is using Loyalist SMurf rules for his Dust Buckets.

The issue with TS is similar to possessed, spawn, and lesser daemons. Their application is narrow and YOU have to bend to how they play rather than the other way around. They are not flexible, they handle one thing only really MEQ out of cover.
This is a poor issue for them, as cover is everywhere, mech is in general the king, combat is still preferable to most armies, and hordes are always around.

I guess the best way to play them is to play Water Style with them, but they screw that up even by being S&P...there just seems so many contradictions to them when you look at their rules and how they interact with 5th ed...which comes back to the whole timing of this codex's release.

I'm sorry if this is a rather silly question, but what is "Water Style"?

I like Thousand Sons, I have a squad of them, but when a full squad with even a basic Sorcerer costs around 300pts., I hardly ever feel like they're worth it. Generally I just take Noise Marines if I want infantry shooting, as their range is far superior and therefore they hold home objectives better.

Taking a Psyker as a Troop choice would be a huge boon, if Chaos had better spells. As is, the supposedly most-Warp-connected faction in the setting has one of the lamest psychic power lists. Warptime, arguably their best all-purpose spell, is useless on an Aspiring Sorcerer because TSons want to stay out of CC as much as possible; Bolt of Change looks good on paper but isn't reliable for anti-tank, which is what you'd want to use S8 for; Doombolt is basically just another Inferno Bolter with an extra shot, etc. Lash and Rot aren't available, though I suppose you might be able to get some mileage out of Wind of Chaos if you're in a Rhino.

That said, some day I would like to run a list that's all Thousand Sons, Aspiring Sorcerers with Gift of Chaos, and a reserves table covered in Lesser Daemons and Spawn models, just for the fun of it. This is right up there with my "87 Berzerkers and Kharne the Betrayer" list on my agenda of things to do when I have more money than God.

@Sgt.Sunshine:
Water style can be summed up as playing reactively.
Best resource is to look for 'Way of the Water Warrior' over on Bolter and Chainsword.

@alanedomain:

This is right up there with my "87 Berzerkers and Kharne the Betrayer" list on my agenda of things to do when I have more money than God Raptor Jesus.

Fixed that for you

Ah, suddenly the name makes sense. I feel like I should have seen that sooner, but I'll give the article a look to see if I'm not jumping too conclusions.

Well it really depends on how fluffy you want to run them. The only problem army for me has been vanilla marines with 2 ironclads at 1000pts. Other than that I have either won or drawn every game I have played with them. In 1850 I run 4 9 man squads w/ rhinos, 2 doombolts, 2 bolts of change, and like 2 or 3 vindicators w/ possession. I've been playing around with possessed in a rhino and MofT. I dont like regular CSM as troops. If your going to go footslogging, I'd suggest bigger squads with prince support. I also like the terminators w/ MofT. Obliterators work real well with this army as well. But Vindicators and defilers are the sons friends. especially when it comes to horde armies.

I play an all Thousand Sons list. It's a lot of fun, takes a bit of practice to get the hang of it though. The water tactics can be well applied with a good list synergy, It's just tough to fit all the components in with the high prices. With good heavy support, havoc launchers on the rhinos and a slow retreat covered by demon princes, hordes usually aren't a problem for me. It's the heavy mech that's harder, those games almost always come down to dice rolls. How many Inv saves can my demon princes make or how do the combi melta terminators land ? Meq opponents are a lot of fun though =)

If you're going daemon princes then mark of tzeentch is essential.

Thousand Sons sacrifice heavy weapons and really any ability to take elites in favour of taking marines that have an Inv Save and a sorceror that can fry tough opponents.

Thing with Thousand Sons is you can't have a low points army and expect to win much.

Basic THousand Sons list (1500 points)

Daemon Prince
Wings
MoTZ
Warptime

175

Daemon Prince
Wings
MoTZ
Warptime
175

TROOPS

Thousand Sons (10 man)
Aspiring Sorceror w/ Bolt of Change
Chaos Rhino w/ Combi-Melta

337

Thousand Sons (10 man)
Aspiring Sorceror w/ Doombolt
Chaos Rhino w/ Havoc Launcher

327

Thousand Sons (10 man)
Aspiring Sorceror w/ Doombolt
Chaos Rhino w/ Havoc Launcher

327

HEAVY SUPPORT

Defiler
Havoc Launcher

155

1496

3 Hard to budge trooops. with one melta ability and others geared towards infantry killing. Defiler as close support. and two princes to take down hard to kill stuff.

That's not a bad army list. The problem is, would it be better with normal CSM instead of thousand sons? I'm afraid so.

In the current rules, with the armies that are most common, thousand sons just pay way too much for their abilities. No special weapons, when vehicles are ubiquitous? AP3 and an invulnerable save, when 4+ cover is so plentiful?

I used to have 1000 points of Thousand Sons. I gave them up. Normal CSM are just all-round better.

The problem with Tzeentchian Daemon Princes is how easy they are to kill with small arms. Using MoT actually pushes them away from being armor saturation because anti-tank weapons are so inefficient against them. That army simply lacks volume of fire, either for anti-infantry or anti-tank. Two Daemon Princes and a Defiler won't save your from all the close combat in the world either. While I think that list is a noble attempt, something stronger would do well to use less.

Chaos Lord, Mark of Tzeentch, Daemon Weapon, 145
10 CSM, 2 Meltaguns, Icon of Khorne, Champion w/ Power Weapon, Rhino, 265
10 CSM, 2 Meltaguns, Icon of Chaos Glory, Rhino w/ Havoc Launcher, 230
7 Thousand Sons, Doombolt, Icon, Rhino w/ Havoc Launcher, 263
10 Lesser Daemons, 130
8 Havocs, 2 Meltaguns, 2 Flamers, Icon of Chaos Glory, Rhino w/ Combi-Melta, 205
Predator, Lascannon Sponsons, 130
Predator, Lascannon Sponsons, 130
1498

I this has a good mix of short and long ranged firepower, along with a respectable body count (46 infantry, 6 tanks). I took a Lord instead of a Prince because, like most armies, this army lacks the target saturation to cover for a Prince, and the Lord can synergize with the Thousand Sons better than any other HQ. This list doesn't soley consist of Thousand Sons, but it prominently features them.

Thousand Sons' niche has diminishing returns; even in the best of circumstances there are only so many Marines out of cover at any given time, and not all of your Thousand Sons can take advantage of the situation. Invariably you'll have to keep using some of them for other tasks, ones they are less effective at. It is much stronger to have a diversified force, but you still get the satisfaction of making good use of Dust Buckets.

DarkHound wrote:
Thousand Sons' niche has diminishing returns; even in the best of circumstances there are only so many Marines out of cover at any given time, and not all of your Thousand Sons can take advantage of the situation. Invariably you'll have to keep using some of them for other tasks, ones they are less effective at. It is much stronger to have a diversified force, but you still get the satisfaction of making good use of Dust Buckets.

I think this is a pretty good point. A single unit will usually find an infantry unit in the open to mow down, or could be used to claim an objective in the open (still useless against some armies though) while multiple units just add up in cost, and you'll never bring them all to bear against good targets.

I've always been a huge fan of the fluff and models, but their rules haven't been any good for a long time now. They're best left in the box, unless you're painting them up for hobby interest. One unit is pretty good, if not ideal, but you can't field an entire practical force of them.

I taught a new player this lesson quite recently on the tabletop... fortunately he was proxying.

As with most Chaos armies it is possible to do a Themed army, just not very competitive.

Whereas Space marines get entire codexes for one chapter, the myriad CSM chapters have to do with lacklustre rules.

I thought a T-Sons list would not have any possession or mutation in it thus:

No Daemon Princes - just sorcerers.
No possessed - again, they are both possessed and mutated.

Other units that are not really T-Sons but can take a mark:

Terminators - can't really explain how they are not affected by the rubric
Chosen - same
Havoks - same
Obliterators - same
and even Defilers are suspect.

The Dreadnaught is already a ghost and the Predator are probably safe to use from a "True Fluff" point of view (but that is just my guess-timation.

I dunno, I tried to stay fluffy but then have my butt handed to me on a silver platter is not always fun. I'd say screw the true stuff and try to use units that can at least take a mark of tzeentch. The only units I will probably never use in a Tzeentch flavored army is use defilers or obilterators - that's a huge disadvantage that your opponent can surely appreciate the sacrifice. Again, my beef is when you play a fluffy game against a Space Wolf Army and they get a whole book to choose from and you are self-imposing fluff-rules on yourself right into non-competitiveness.

P.S. The true nemesis to the Thousand Sons are Psychic Hoods - they can render a Sorcerer useless (including Ahriman) and hand-cuffed the Troops from any advantage. Not sure about you but just about every marine army now has a Librarian so relying on magic just became a little harder.

Sgt.Sunshine wrote:I don't play CSM, but I was wondering if it was possible to have a list with Rubric Marines as the only troops and infantry based model?

Sadly, as most of the other posters have pointed out, it's hard to play a pure 1kSons army. I've had mine for years now, and we typically are the Red-headed step children of Magnus... Heck, there's a reason GW's done two "Putting the Tzap in Tzeentch" articles over the years.

As the other posters have noted, we pay a lot of points for powers that are really less valuable in v5. Worse still, we're a v4 Psychic army in the v5 era. Just look at 1kSons Sorcerers compared to SM/SW/BA Libbys. Not so hot for a Legion of Sorcerers!

If you do decide to go with a "pure" Thousand Sons army, then you'll need to think about Terminators with the MoT for punch (and that's not entirely unfluffy since Rubric Terminators existed in the past). You'll also likely need to consider Rhinos for your troops to offset S&P. You'll need anti-tank firepower in the form of vehicles, but remember you won't have enough firepower to outshoot any shooty armies.

Basically, it's a tough Legion to take. But if you like the fluff and the models, then by all means go for it! I've always loved the 'Sons, so I'll stick with them through the highs and lows...

Valete,

JohnS

I don't think Hoods are the only thing.
Runes of Warding shuts down a whole army of TS.....not even shut down, but kill of important members as well.

@cygnnus:

Rubric Termies did exist, ICON of Tzeentch is not the same thing as the mark sadly. Count as is count as and it's just not the same thing.

I can't really add anything that we haven't already covered, but it just occurred to me how awesome TSons would be if the Sorcerer's Warptime could affect a whole unit. AP3 Relentless bolters that re-roll everything? Now THAT would be worth the cost!

/shrug, GW could do alot of things, but didn't. That is the truth sadly.

Yay warmahordes? Dur?

And you can always use a tzeench-themed list without EVERYTHING being 1k sons. I mean, space marines bring scouts, don't they? Dark templar bring neophytes, aspect warriors bring guardians, guardsmen bring... well, worse guardsmen with white stripes on their helmets.

You can still run a highly tzeench-themed list with, say, 1 squad of rubric marines and 2 squads of "aspiring" rubric marines that are regular CSM painted in the same motif.

Sanctjud wrote:

@cygnnus:

Rubric Termies did exist, ICON of Tzeentch is not the same thing as the mark sadly. Count as is count as and it's just not the same thing.

I didn't mean to suggest otherwise if I did... Rubric Termies are in the fluff. And, yes, they don't exist per se now (although they DO exist in one of the Apoc datasheets). I was merely trying to state that Terminators in a Thousand Sons army ARE fluffy, even if you can't buy Rubric Termies per se. Sorry if I was unclear.

Valete,

JohnS

I actually miss the last codex for CSM. BAck with all the books of Chaos, when you could take Rubric terminators. IC, chosen and possesed that auto passed every psychic test, and the opion to deck your characters out the way you see. fit. Taking 10 chosen sorcerer as 1 unit. Dear GW please bring back the chaos books.