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Winning isn't everything; but it sure is nice every once in a while.

Right now I'm toying with the idea of playing Dark Eldar - I love their lore, and playing style. The problem is, everyone I know says they're not competitive. I guess my general question is - "are the Dark Eldar a finnicky army that could possibly be competitive, or is there absolutely no chance against top tier armies?"

Of course, I have my Ork Army that I know CAN be competitive, and Blood Angels who most certainly ARE, but I want to get some background information on Dark Eldar before I dive right in. From my perspective, having a glass cannon (Dark Eldar) in addition to a glass axe (Ork), and a canon (Blood Angels) would be a pretty well rounded armada to choose from.

The all-inspiring question - how about a general answer?

Yes, depending on your play style, your experience and the level of points.

Play style includes your preferences of the units "you gotta have in the list regardless" to your tendencies on the board. You will have to translate your tendencies to a DE list. The overall conclusion to this is if your tendencies going to lead you to a competitive list or not.

Experience - DE are a glass hammer and are very unforgiving, you make 1 mistake and its game over most of the time. Can you get the match ups you want, apply pressure where you want and still be alive enough to control the board come the 5th turn. It's all about knowing what your individual units can handle and making sure they get the right match ups.

Level of points - I think DE lose steam beyond 2000 points and are more competitive below 2000 points. I can't really prove it but that is a personal observation of mine. 1,000 to 1,500 I like my odds - 1750 and 1850 are OK and at 2000 points you gotta know what you are doing. Beyond that the DE flounder as the list does not get better exponentially as other newer codices do (you are forced to use less than efficient choices and the list actually gets weaker because of it).

My overall impression with your experience being with da Orks is that you have a good chance of doing well with the DE earlier than say a Marine player would. So the main question here would be (in my mind) what were your tendencies with the Orks?

So the overall answer, yes, you can be competitive (depending on the pond your are swimming in).The initial shock of using an army no body else is familiar with also has a factor in winning as well.

Dark Eldar are cruel and the whole book reeks of cheese. They are the ultimate glass hammer: everything is extremely cheap and effective, but DE are simply the most vulnerable army in the game. The best players are the ones who can use positioning to midigate their vulnerablity, leaving you with just extremely cheap and effective.

I tried making a for-fun 1500 DE list: it devolved into Wyches with 23 Dark Lances and a 25-30" charge range 2+ invulnerable save HQ. Making a beardy list is as easy as not taking things that aren't good: Scourges and Warp Beasts. Everything else and every piece of wargear at worst workable, or at best totally over the top (2+ invulnerable save for 25 points).

Kwi wrote:So the main question here would be (in my mind) what were your tendencies with the Orks?

My favorite list so far is a foot-slogging 60+ model count force (with a few rokkits for anti-vehicle), marching/running down the field, with Deffkoptas scouting/surgically striking a vehicle or two on turn 1.

DarkHound wrote:Dark Eldar are cruel and the whole book reeks of cheese.

The whole book is not made of cheese. There are a lot of really really bad Dark Eldar units. Groteques, Helions, Scourge, Mandrakes....all terrible choices. That being said, they have some of the best choices in any book. Dark lances are far far cheaper than Eldar bright lances and you can get more of them and they are more accurate most of the time. Wyches, Warriors, Ravagers are competitive. I think that the Jetbikes, Hemonculi, and Incubi can have their uses in more friendly games. After that, there is nothing really worth taking any more. Also, they have a ton of equipment that is useless in 5th edition as well.

Yes they are. They stomp MEQ. Although, rumor has it a new codex is coming very soon, so you might want to wait...

In a word, I hope so, as I've just started a DE army (Finally). I have played some proxy games though, and have noticed that they can struggle against fast moving combat armies like Speed Freaks and to some extent Blood Angels.

Really, though, I'm just in it for the hat's .

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Dark_Eldar_Tactica

This

Magna
up until recently I would have said that they were a difficult army to play but still potentially very strong. However I feel they've been eclipsed by the last year's releases. For just friendly play they can still be pretty strong but you really have to know what you're doing.

You can spam dark lances (10 or more is no problem) and that can be pretty strong against mechanized armies. You're still very mobile and have some really ugly high initiative stuff in close combat. The warp portal (can't remember exactly what it's called) can still be pretty good since it lets you bring your reserves out right on top of them and there isn't much they can do about it.

Obviously you can't take much of a hit with that army; the key to using it is to wipe them out so fast that your crappy armor doesn't matter, because they're all dead. If that's your play style - ie. you don't mind taking huge risks on the first few turns of the game - then go for it they can still be strong for casual play. Otherwise I'd avoid them, because really it's the only way to play them and make them even a little bit competitive. You have to go all out, pure aggression. Balance is not a concept their twisted minds understand....

Another advantage of DE is that they're such a rare army most people don't have any kind of strategy against them; they simply have no idea what they're fighting. You're getting a new codex soon so you might want to wait and see what it loks like. The models are supposed to get updated too. Good luck!
AF

Yes, the DE codex has a lot of garbage in it that nobody uses. Yes, the DE codex, despite being older than some Dakka forum members, is still competitive. Yes, the DE are getting a new codex (and thus likely some new models), so you really, really should wait until this fall/winter before making any decisions about them.

Is there any actual confirmation on the Codex?

Magnalon wrote:Is there any actual confirmation on the Codex?

Yes and No.... Look up the rumors threads and make your decision based on that.

I personally strongly believe that we(they) will be getting a new codex very soon. I also believe that it will be like the Tyranids 5th edition dex... INSANELY STRONG for the first few weeks it is out, then as people learn how to deal, it will get weaker over time (Until their best SC gets FAQ-Nerfed to Uselessness) but they are and still will be a rather competitve list.

What I reccomend you do now is look for a cheap starter force on Ebay, even if it is painted/modeled like garbage. You can typically find a good 1000-1500 points for about 50-100$ (which is INSANELY CHEAP, 6 years ago I started my DE force with a 3000+ point-army auction I won for 137$ with shipping...) and that will get you at least "started" on your adventure into the land of DE. Word to the wise, steer clear of Hellions, Grotesques, Mandrakes and Scourges (If the army you are looking at on Ebay is 'heavy' in any of these choices, keep looking. You MAY want to coin toss on Scourge heavy, as rumors make it seem Scourges are going to get a nice buff in the next dex ((i.e 3+ armor saves and different weapons))). That will get you more accostumed to the DE Army (both in fluff and playstyle) and give you a base to start with the new models (which you can buy NiB and Build/Paint to your hearts desire) which if you end up finding you have duplicates (if the new Wyches are as pretty as they sound for instance, so you end up with a ton extra) then you will either have a sizable Apoc list, or you can just toss your old models ( at <~10cents per point you aren't missing out on much...).

They are fun to play and they can be very competitve, I STRONGLY suggest reading the thread I linked. It is Golden knowledge on the internet (which is rare these days).

They get some pretty cool wargear. Like darkhound said one character can get a 2++, though if he fails once, it is gone.

The terrorfex actually makes pinning awesome.

The haemonculus stinger is odd, cool, but odd. For every unsaved wound caused by it, you then shoot a small blast with a str equal to the wounded model's T with an AP value equal to they're save.

Oh and drugs. How can I forget about that?

I overdosed with Chaos Combat Drugs...
...
...
Every time.

DE are competitive, but there's only really two builds and it involves not too much variety.

Magna
GW hasn't made it official but it seems pretty likely. Generally speaking GW pays attention to codices that
1. are popular
2. are old.
All the most popular armies are reasonably up to date, but there are still 3 codices that are really old and out of sync with the rules: dark eldar, grey knights, necrons.

Until recently space wolves was the oldest codex. Now it's Dark Eldar. There have been alot of rumors about them + about the other two, so, based on their age and how much chatter there has been, I think it's very likely to see a new DE book within the next 6 months.
AF

Dark Eldar can be competitive in two ways. One; you play the one truly good list and understand all of it's intricacies and are a finesse player. Two; you get the first turn.

Thanks guys!

Competetive? Yes we are if you are found worthy.
Join us you will like it!

On a more serious and hopefully helpful note, there is an extremely good article on DE tactics in the Tactica section.

1. Thor665 is the Dakka Lord of Dark Eldar. PM him. Clthomps too. Try bringing them to this thread if you can to post; only good things will develop.

2. DE are still competitive. I won my Golden Ticket to the Las Vegas invitiational GT with Dark Eldar. As a supplemental note, see my signature (record + DE batreps). The record is my proof that DE still kick ass. The batreps (linked) can help you understand how I use my own Dark Eldar.

3. There *is* rumor of a new DE codex, and supposedly its next. In two months. Ponder this.

4. Competitive. Heh. I attended a "Baddest Mofo" tournament (no sportsmanship, no comp, no painting, bring your absolute worst list) and beat face with DE so badly that it started a dramafest and flamewar about DE being overpowered and silly. *laughing*

Dark Eldar are still very competitive if you take the right list and you take the time to learn them. They are not a beginners army that you can just pick up and expect to win with. Expect to lose often as you learn but once you learn how to play them well they are one of the best armies but as a glass cannon mistakes can be very costly. I still play my dark eldar and do quite well with them when I do play them.

i was talking to a friend of mine (well listening in) while he was talking to a guy in bugmens the other day and he said hellions 'might' become the DE alternative to melta squads . I asked him what he ment and he said they would be looking at 2- 3 special weapons in a unit of 3 of them.

now i duno how true any of that would be
this guy was just a barmen as far as i could tell but working so closely to the design staff he may have heard things - i dunno

but i think that would be pretty coolio - especially if they come down slightly in price

Dark Eldar scale massively well to skill level, however they are very fragile and unforgiving.

My main issue with them is they are very mono-build. Its reavers and raiders with barely any wiggle room to try anything new, because most of everything else in the 'dex kinda stinks.

This is in itself kinda boring imo, but its also a problem with your opponents. If he has fought DE once, he knows whats in your list and has worked out a counter strategy. Fight DE once and you've fought every DE list out there. +/- 10% of course.