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What do you feel is a better heavy support option for a iron warriors like CSM army. Im leading towards the predators to get that long range anti tank hits that my army is going to lack. Also open to oblits but i personally hate the models but could always try to make one up.

What do you think?

Three lascanons...enough said...

It all depend on what kind of enemy you face. Do you have a friend or friends that you commonly face, or do you just walk into any random store?
Anyway, if you are facing a horde army (orcs, tyrannids, or imperial guard, and yes, IG is a horde army ) then the Vindicator, with it's ability to take two storm bolters, storm shield, and it's almighty Demolisher cannon, it is able to take down large blocks of infantry. The Predator, however, is better suited for long- range combat and fighting elite armies, such as MEQ's (Space Marines, Chaos SMs, Necrons, Daemon hunters) if equiped with lascannons, or if facing more lightly armored targets, such as the Tau, then auto-cannon and heavy bolter spamming is the way to go!
Hvy Bolter is AP 4 and so is autocannon, but autocannon auto- kills most tau
Once again, it all depends on what army you face most, I face IG( not against castle formation, though, just Valkarie, stormtroopers, Executioner, Lenon Russ with lascannon hull turret, basilisk, 3 lascannon teams, several missile lauchers, and a HUGE amount of infantry, so I could use all of the heavy support I can get) and Necrons (really, not that many of them, all I have to do is equip my ten vanguard with power weapons and charge his 10 immortals/ 20 warriors, but if only I can take his monolith), and I manage to blow the IG up with Predator, the Necrons up with Vindicator
(I proxy my Whirlwind for Vindicator, oh, and by the way, NEVER get a whirlwind, it was my first vehicle and died every time in the 500 point games I played), so take into consideration range, how heavily armored your foes are, and what you do with your army. You also need to always back up tanks with infantry to avoid watching your favorite vehicle blow up via melta-bombs,
I've said enough......

1. The vindie can't fire it's storm bolters if it fires the demolisher cannon.
2. Do you really need a siege shield? A dozer blade makes dangerous terrain a non-issue (unless your dice hate you) but from a modeling standpoint the vindie looks stupid without a siege shield...
3. What's your army list? Help us help you!

Been waiting to say that for like ever...

my 1850 list is
2 Unmarked daemon princes with warptime
3-4 Chaos space marine squads x2 melta in rhinos
And Thats all that i definitely want in the list the rest is up for grabs.
leaves me with bout 800 pts to spend on units to support the core or improve the core i had

The armies i face are typically ig and necrons (believe it or not) Both give me some serious trouble.

Against crons, a vindi will just ruin their day. They're warriors and destroyers just got their butts kicked.

IG... I have no clue tbh.

And why no marks on your DP's?

It keeps them cheap, I suppose. Spartan Princes are one of the best deals in the codex.

For you, I'd take Predators, and lots of them. You lack long ranged firepower, and Predators are the most cost effective long ranged anti-tank we have. I swear by my Tri-Las Pred, but the AC turret/Lascannon Sponsons provide ample firepower.

Brings a tear to my eye when they are addressed as 'Spartan', tears of joy like a proud father

Depends on how you want to play them.

The preds can sit back as precise fire support and gun away over the game (or until they pop)

The vindi on the other hand needs to be close.
Granted, a S10 pie plate will hurt anything it goes near, but your then in range of pretty much 95% of all anti-tank weapons.


So, you can gamble with the vindi for a turn or 2 of extreme destruction (depending on how much anti-tank they have)
Or you can sit back doing less damage, but be alot more safe.



Me, i would take the vindi hands down though.
S10 isnt common anymore from shooting.
Also, units like nob bikers get crushed.
No wound bouncing due to instant death, no armour save, just dead.

Also, against marines you can pop a rhino or razor, then fire the vindi at them, which should kill most of them (wound on a 2+, no saves)

Gotta come back on this one - I'm a vindicator person. To start out, the predator destructor will set you back 115 points, annihilator 180 (I'm assuming you'll throw on havoc launchers - I would, at least for the destructor). I can't recommend the destructor at all, though - you've got bolters for crowd control. The annihilator does have plenty of tank-killing power, but it's still not the greatest for knocking out a heavier battlebeast. The vindicator, on the other hand, costs only 125 points, and can shred enemy armor. Once again, its weakness is its short range.
Let's break down the numbers a bit:

Three Lascannons, one twin-linked, will get about 17/9 (almost two) hits per turn. Against an AV 14 tank, that means you're looking at about a 1/3 chance of penetrating, and a 1/3 chance of glancing with each turn of fire (this is assuming you remain stationary and fire all guns).

The vindicator, on the other hand, will put down only 14/27 hits (just over one half). As S10 Ordnance, though, this shot will penetrate 5/18 of the time, and glance 1/6 of the time.

So - for tank hunting, the predator annihilator wins out by an acceptable margin. Comparing costs, though, the vindi is probably going to win the anti-tank war. The only other issue is getting close, but a CSM army should never be backfield hangers anyway.

Against infantry, though, the vindi will beat both the annihilator and the destructor hands down, at the cost of its shorter range. Only against the lightest armies will the destructor even come close.

So here's my qualified recommendation: Go with the vindicator, unless you find you're having really serious trouble with light-to-medium tanks and don't mind blowing 170 points on the predator.

On a tactics thread, this is an afterthought, but don't Iron Warriors love really, REALLY big guns? So, that could be a factor as well.

MekanobSamael wrote:Gotta come back on this one - I'm a vindicator person. To start out, the predator destructor will set you back 115 points, annihilator 180 (I'm assuming you'll throw on havoc launchers - I would, at least for the destructor). I can't recommend the destructor at all, though - you've got bolters for crowd control. The annihilator does have plenty of tank-killing power, but it's still not the greatest for knocking out a heavier battlebeast. The vindicator, on the other hand, costs only 125 points, and can shred enemy armor. Once again, its weakness is its short range.
Let's break down the numbers a bit:

Three Lascannons, one twin-linked, will get about 17/9 (almost two) hits per turn. Against an AV 14 tank, that means you're looking at about a 1/3 chance of penetrating, and a 1/3 chance of glancing with each turn of fire (this is assuming you remain stationary and fire all guns).

The vindicator, on the other hand, will put down only 14/27 hits (just over one half). As S10 Ordnance, though, this shot will penetrate 5/18 of the time, and glance 1/6 of the time.

So - for tank hunting, the predator annihilator wins out by an acceptable margin. Comparing costs, though, the vindi is probably going to win the anti-tank war. The only other issue is getting close, but a CSM army should never be backfield hangers anyway.

Against infantry, though, the vindi will beat both the annihilator and the destructor hands down, at the cost of its shorter range. Only against the lightest armies will the destructor even come close.

Now multiply the predator's odds by 6, to reflect the 5-7 volleys it typically gets per game compared with the one shot the vindicator gets before it dies.

I proxyed a few games with the predators and it seems that they are gonna be the way to go when it comes to my list. Long range anti tank is what I was really missing to make my list well rounded. When using vindis I felt like they didn't make up thier points. Too many variables to make it dependable for anti tank.

Now for the turret las or auto ?

When I proxyed this I used auto/las and it completely dominated the rhinos. But part of me feels like to make an all comers list atleast one should be solid las, although that may make target priority a lot easier for my opppnent.

what do you think?

Flavius Infernus wrote:

MekanobSamael wrote:Gotta come back on this one - I'm a vindicator person. To start out, the predator destructor will set you back 115 points, annihilator 180 (I'm assuming you'll throw on havoc launchers - I would, at least for the destructor). I can't recommend the destructor at all, though - you've got bolters for crowd control. The annihilator does have plenty of tank-killing power, but it's still not the greatest for knocking out a heavier battlebeast. The vindicator, on the other hand, costs only 125 points, and can shred enemy armor. Once again, its weakness is its short range.
Let's break down the numbers a bit:

Three Lascannons, one twin-linked, will get about 17/9 (almost two) hits per turn. Against an AV 14 tank, that means you're looking at about a 1/3 chance of penetrating, and a 1/3 chance of glancing with each turn of fire (this is assuming you remain stationary and fire all guns).

The vindicator, on the other hand, will put down only 14/27 hits (just over one half). As S10 Ordnance, though, this shot will penetrate 5/18 of the time, and glance 1/6 of the time.

So - for tank hunting, the predator annihilator wins out by an acceptable margin. Comparing costs, though, the vindi is probably going to win the anti-tank war. The only other issue is getting close, but a CSM army should never be backfield hangers anyway.

Against infantry, though, the vindi will beat both the annihilator and the destructor hands down, at the cost of its shorter range. Only against the lightest armies will the destructor even come close.

Now multiply the predator's odds by 6, to reflect the 5-7 volleys it typically gets per game compared with the one shot the vindicator gets before it dies.

Not if you take 2-3. If you run a single one it will die. If you run 2 your opponent usually thinks it isnt worth it to throw all his fire into one. With three even less so.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

MekanobSamael wrote:Gotta come back on this one - I'm a vindicator person. To start out, the predator destructor will set you back 115 points, annihilator 180 (I'm assuming you'll throw on havoc launchers - I would, at least for the destructor). I can't recommend the destructor at all, though - you've got bolters for crowd control. The annihilator does have plenty of tank-killing power, but it's still not the greatest for knocking out a heavier battlebeast. The vindicator, on the other hand, costs only 125 points, and can shred enemy armor. Once again, its weakness is its short range.
Let's break down the numbers a bit:

Three Lascannons, one twin-linked, will get about 17/9 (almost two) hits per turn. Against an AV 14 tank, that means you're looking at about a 1/3 chance of penetrating, and a 1/3 chance of glancing with each turn of fire (this is assuming you remain stationary and fire all guns).

The vindicator, on the other hand, will put down only 14/27 hits (just over one half). As S10 Ordnance, though, this shot will penetrate 5/18 of the time, and glance 1/6 of the time.

So - for tank hunting, the predator annihilator wins out by an acceptable margin. Comparing costs, though, the vindi is probably going to win the anti-tank war. The only other issue is getting close, but a CSM army should never be backfield hangers anyway.

Against infantry, though, the vindi will beat both the annihilator and the destructor hands down, at the cost of its shorter range. Only against the lightest armies will the destructor even come close.

Now multiply the predator's odds by 6, to reflect the 5-7 volleys it typically gets per game compared with the one shot the vindicator gets before it dies.

I guess if you don't really know how to use vindicators, that might be true. A player with some experience, however, knows how to take advantage of available cover (low chassis = good, turret = bad), smoke launchers, and the fact that unlike the predator, the vindicator loses no firepower by moving before it shoots.

MekanobSamael wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:

MekanobSamael wrote:Gotta come back on this one - I'm a vindicator person. To start out, the predator destructor will set you back 115 points, annihilator 180 (I'm assuming you'll throw on havoc launchers - I would, at least for the destructor). I can't recommend the destructor at all, though - you've got bolters for crowd control. The annihilator does have plenty of tank-killing power, but it's still not the greatest for knocking out a heavier battlebeast. The vindicator, on the other hand, costs only 125 points, and can shred enemy armor. Once again, its weakness is its short range.
Let's break down the numbers a bit:

Three Lascannons, one twin-linked, will get about 17/9 (almost two) hits per turn. Against an AV 14 tank, that means you're looking at about a 1/3 chance of penetrating, and a 1/3 chance of glancing with each turn of fire (this is assuming you remain stationary and fire all guns).

The vindicator, on the other hand, will put down only 14/27 hits (just over one half). As S10 Ordnance, though, this shot will penetrate 5/18 of the time, and glance 1/6 of the time.

So - for tank hunting, the predator annihilator wins out by an acceptable margin. Comparing costs, though, the vindi is probably going to win the anti-tank war. The only other issue is getting close, but a CSM army should never be backfield hangers anyway.

Against infantry, though, the vindi will beat both the annihilator and the destructor hands down, at the cost of its shorter range. Only against the lightest armies will the destructor even come close.

Now multiply the predator's odds by 6, to reflect the 5-7 volleys it typically gets per game compared with the one shot the vindicator gets before it dies.

So...your theory is that opponents pour all their fire into vindis and ignore preds.

And that makes predators better?

My experience is that predators tend to sit 30"+ away from enemy guns with their AR13 facing toward the enemy. So nothing of str6 or less or short-ranged can hurt them, and str7+, long-range weapons don't hurt them much and often don't bother to shoot at them at all. Whereas vindicators have to close in to the 18-20" range or closer where their side armor is exposed and all kinds of short-ranged guns get easy shots on them. More guns that can hit thinner armor = more dead vindicators.

You have to think about context, though. This is a player with four rhinos on the board (i.e. plenty of facing blockage, once they dump their cargo, unless he uses the havoc storm), and enough infantry to provide adequate close-combat protection for any tank that wants to get in close and blast heads. I'm saying that while, yes, the predator can be a good stand-back-and-shoot tank, the vindi is going to win every time the battle gets up-close-and-personal, which it always is with chaos marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For the record, my opinion may be biased. I've never lost a vindicator without first making its points back by blasting out, say, an entire tactical squad, or four out of five terminators. I used to run two or even three back when I played Iron Warriors.

And I'm just talking out of my experience here too. I routinely see vindicators--singly and multiples--in parking lot lists with rhinos and land raiders, and it's never a problem to swing out a little to the side or blow something out of the way and get a side shot, or to just send up a meltagun and pop a vindicator through the front armor. I'm not saying that they don't get a shot off (although they often don't). I'm saying they typically only get about one shot because after the shot they're so close.

But a predator sitting on the other side of the board either requires some kind of dedicated antitank deepstriker/outflanker--who then is out of position to do something else--or a multi-turn run up to the tank to kill it. No babysitting required.

Question: is the Predator or Vindicator operating alone or with friends? I find Predators work better solo, while Vindis need to be part of a convoy of sorts. I'm playtesting a 3-Vindi list right now, but have the Dakka preds as my fall back option if I don't like them.

Flavius: You cant say a vindi will get 1 shot and die, while a pred lasts a whole game.

Too many people pod thier armies now, or have ranged anti-tank.
So the chances of losing a vindi is the same as a pred, range means nothing when your being shot by las or a pod lands by you.

Im with mek on this one all the way.
Actually used to run 2 preds and a vindi, but after a while i decided to go 2 vindi's, and finally 3 of them.

Cant get much better with results from them, they seem to do thier job every game without fail.




Now, compare 3 turns of shooting from a pred, then 3 from the vindi (going by half a game for survival)
The vindi will far out-do the predator every time.

Also, against guard armies you will be faced with alot of armour, but the vindi can simply hit more than one at once, so in effect you can be hunting multiple tanks with the same vehicle.

Str 5 vs. Russ or even Chimera armor?
It's not multiple tanks, but I would agree with multiple units being affected being a likely situation.

Personally, if I need the anti-transport I'd go for AC/LC.
If I needed some generalist, I'd go for the vindi.

More personally, I'd go with neither...

I personally prefer the much maligned and yet ever useful dev squad with 4x ML.

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:Flavius: You cant say a vindi will get 1 shot and die, while a pred lasts a whole game.

Well like I said, I'm just speaking out of my own experience.

When I play predators (usually 2) with my mech army, they seldom get killed. When I play against preds, I'm usually too focused on transports and objectives to send my pods/deepstrikers after them.

But when I play against vindis (I never use them in my own armies), they're right there close to my short-ranged weapons with their sides exposed, so I kill em.

Just out of curiosity, how do you configure your preds?

I use AC/HB preds in space marine armies, and AC/LC preds in chaos armies (because chaos can't get multimeltas).

Just to be holistic, you can get multi-meltas in the Chaos Army via Dread and Oblits.
But Dreads are crazy and Oblits are pricey for their flexibility .

Obliterators are probably your best option because of their versatility. They have a weapon for every occasion. Las cannons for long range anti tank. Multi meltas or meltas for close up anti tank. Plasma cannons for killing infantry when combined with lash.