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really why don't they?

Bs2.

^ What he said. While there are plenty of ways to get Rokkits on the table between the FA buggies/deffkoptas, vehicle upgrades, and Tankbustas, you're still firing a single-shot weapon at BS2. Not to mention that Tankbustas suffer badly on the table due to the Glory Hogs rule.

Because it is pain when painboyz have to fix up the mistakes of the one ork who held the rokkit the wrong way.

Probably because, they are assault 1, not anything higher, they cost a lot, and...yeah.

They are very good at taking out multiple wound models with toughness 4 or lower with 3+ armor or better. Huzzah ID!

Well ok we have several sources of rokkits, lets look at them

1. Ork Boyz.
Pros: lots of bodies to cover
Cons: BS2, can only have 1 per ten man squad and other guns wont do anything to tanks
2. Kommandos
Pros: Can Infiltrate and Move Through Cover
Cons: BS2, takes up elite, more expensive than boyz, only can have 2
3. Tankbustas
Pros: By default they all have rokkits, can devastate tyranids
Cons: BS2, Glory Hogs makes them easy for bait armies, expensive, takes up elite
4. Combi Rokkits
Pros: Relatively cheap. On tough Models
Cons: BS2, one shot, takes up points for claws/armor/etc
5. Mek Boys
Pros: Can pack in a punch in a unit of burnas or lootas
Cons: BS2, wastes valued elite slots, come with mega blasta default
6. Trukks, Warbuggies and Trakks, Koptas
Pros: Fast, very fast. Trukk carries boyz. the latter 3 are TL
Cons: BS2, very lightly armored
7. Deff Dreads and Killa Kans
Pros: BS3 with kans, have Dread Weapons
Cons: Deff dread has BS2, Lightly Armored
8.Wagons
Pros: Are armored, Battlewagon can take 4
Cons: BS2, Looted Wagon is horrible, only fire all if stationary

Kans are probably best bet. 9 BS3 S8 attacks is nothing to snuff. You could combine them with ork mobs with rokkits

1) Because the game is played face-to-face with anyone from a friend in his garage to a stranger at an FLGS, places where cheesey tactics just don't fly.

2) I'd assume that there are better ways to do shooty Orks. Especially with orks, shooting is based on how many shots you can take and then how powerful they are. You get one rokkit launcha for every ten orks in a boyz squad for 10 points, or a shoota for every ork for free, and at Orks ballistic skill, 2-3 rokkit launchas arent going to beat 40-60 shoota shots.

kenshin620 wrote:Well ok we have several sources of rokkits, lets look at them

1. Ork Boyz.
Pros: lots of bodies to cover
Cons: BS2, can only have 1 per ten man squad and other guns wont do anything to tanks
2. Kommandos
Pros: Can Infiltrate and Move Through Cover
Cons: BS2, takes up elite, more expensive than boyz, only can have 2
3. Tankbustas
Pros: By default they all have rokkits, can devastate tyranids
Cons: BS2, Glory Hogs makes them easy for bait armies, expensive, takes up elite
4. Combi Rokkits
Pros: Relatively cheap. On tough Models
Cons: BS2, one shot, takes up points for claws/armor/etc
5. Mek Boys
Pros: Can pack in a punch in a unit of burnas or lootas
Cons: BS2, wastes valued elite slots, come with mega blasta default
6. Trukks, Warbuggies and Trakks, Koptas
Pros: Fast, very fast. Trukk carries boyz. the latter 3 are TL
Cons: BS2, very lightly armored
7. Deff Dreads and Killa Kans
Pros: BS3 with kans, have Dread Weapons
Cons: Deff dread has BS2, Lightly Armored
8.Wagons
Pros: Are armored, Battlewagon can take 4
Cons: BS2, Looted Wagon is horrible, only fire all if stationary

Kans are probably best bet. 9 BS3 S8 attacks is nothing to snuff. You could combine them with ork mobs with rokkits

^^This^^

Really, the best places to take rokkits are Kans in a Kan Wall, and Deffkoptas/Buggies in a Mech list. KFF helps the Kans/Buggies become much more suriviable.

DiscoVader wrote:Tankbustas suffer badly on the table due to the Glory Hogs rule.

kenshin620 wrote:Glory Hogs makes them easy for bait armies

Do you guys actually know what Glory Hogs does?

shealyr wrote:Really, the best places to take rokkits are Kans in a Kan Wall, and Deffkoptas/Buggies in a Mech list. KFF helps the Kans/Buggies become much more suriviable.

Truer words have rarely been spoken. With a Kan wall you can sit back and pelt the enema with S8 weapons if they don't engage, and hit them with S10 DCCW if they do. The KFF makes them much more survivable and you can even use a unit of Burnas with Meks in them to provide mobile repair support. Many opponents don't realize you can repair "Weapon Destroyed" results too.

I like to make one Kan unit have Kustom Mega Blastas instead of Rokkits for anti-Terminator duty. See Sanguinor? See Sanguinor die. "Wait... that's S8 AP2?!?!"

Combine a Kan wall w/KFF Big Mek with Buggies & Koptas for lots of Rokkity goodness!

DarkHound wrote:

DiscoVader wrote:Tankbustas suffer badly on the table due to the Glory Hogs rule.

kenshin620 wrote:Glory Hogs makes them easy for bait armies

Do you guys actually know what Glory Hogs does?

Do you actually have anything to contribute?

For all the reasons Kenshin620 said, Rokkit Launcha spam is impractical. Yes, they are an excellent weapon, but Orks can't shoot worth a crap anyway, so it doesn't tend to matter. At that distance, they're just a Waaagh! away from hitting rear armor with Power Klaws, so rokkits at most get only one or two shots. If you're building a gunline (something I generally wouldn't recommend with Orks), your anti-tank will be a few dreads and a ton of lootas. If you're building horde or speed freaks, the Klaws will do just fine.

MekanobSamael wrote:Do you actually have anything to contribute?

Yes, yes I do. I find all too often people don't actually know what Glory Hogs does. Usually people think it forces them to shoot at the nearest vehicle, when in reality all it does is force them to shoot at a vehicle. I run Tank Bustas in my Goff Horde and have quite a bit of experience with them, and it is exceedingly rare that you would rather shoot a squad of Marines over a Rhino. The Marines will get swamped by the Boyz, but a Rhino can tank shock to set you up for some nasty template placement. Not only that, but Tankbusta Bombs are nastly tank shock deterrents. Mix the Tank Bustas in with your horde and the enemy will have a tough time tank shocking effectively without hitting a bomb.

Wazdakka Gutsmek 180
Big Mek, KFF, BP, 90
15 Tank Bustas, 3 Bomb Squigs, Nob, 190
30 Slugga Boyz, Nob, PK, BP, 220
30 Slugga Boyz, Nob, PK, BP, 220
30 Slugga Boyz, Nob, PK, BP, 220
8 Warbikers, Nob, PK, BP, 240
3 Deffkoptas, TL-Rokkits, 135
1495

This is the list I run right now, and I'd like to find a way to fit Rokkits on all the Boy squads but frankly I'm all out of rokkits. I custom built the Tank Bustas because I thought the actual models are too cartoony. I wasn't going to post it, but it does kind of spam rokkits. I'd be willing to cut down a Deffkopta and a couple Warbikers to fit Rokkits everwhere else, but like I said: modeling constraints suck.

DarkHound wrote:

MekanobSamael wrote:Do you actually have anything to contribute?

Yes, yes I do. I find all too often people don't actually know what Glory Hogs does.

I think people know... Don't act smart and diss them.

I am acting smart, but I'm not dissing them. I honestly wanted to know if they knew what Glory Hogs did. Like I said, I use Tankbustas and have never found Glory Hogs to be a problem. You can understand that when people say things like "Glory Hogs makes them easy for bait armies" and "Tankbustas suffer badly on the table due to the Glory Hogs rule" which don't match up at all to my experience, I will assume one of two things: they didn't read the rule properly or have never run them. Often it is a combination of the two.

Rokkits belong on Kans, Koptas, or buggies.

That gives them a 50% or 55% chance of hitting, and gives mobility to the weapon. This is important as a kopta can move 12" over terrain to line up that shot on side armor.

Sadly all of those options are to expensive to spam, and with the exception of kans, hit a point of diminishing returns on effectiveness of investment.

labmouse42 wrote:Rokkits belong on Kans, Koptas, or buggies.

That gives them a 50% or 55% chance of hitting, and gives mobility to the weapon. This is important as a kopta can move 12" over terrain to line up that shot on side armor.

Sadly all of those options are to expensive to spam, and with the exception of kans, hit a point of diminishing returns on effectiveness of investment.

I take issue with your points. I think the point of diminishing returns for rokkits is much higher than any other anti-tank weapon in the game because it is Assault. You're also misleading about the accuracy of the platforms. Kans are what, 45 points with a Rokkit? Koptas are 45, and Buggies are 35 or 40, right? (I'm posting from school and don't have my codex, so sue me.) You can get three Tank Bustas or three Boyz with Rokkits for 45 and 48 points respectively. Not only do you have the 33% higher effective accuracy, you have a triple the damage potential. What you sacrifice is speed, but the only choice that can really use its speed effectively is the Kopta.

In my experiance Koptaz are the best thing to spam rokkits on. They make great bait, and light harrassment units. I never keep them long, but they devert tons of fire from my battlewagons. People see those koptaz make a scout move + 12 more inches =24in, and come in 3-5 koptas strong with TL rokkits, and panic. They tend to shoot the closer threat instead of the more potent one. I really don't like how easily killed deffkoptas are though, they're also kind of expensive if you want to do spiffy things like buzzsaws, and big bomms. These upgrades have never worked out for me.

DarkHound wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:Rokkits belong on Kans, Koptas, or buggies.

That gives them a 50% or 55% chance of hitting, and gives mobility to the weapon. This is important as a kopta can move 12" over terrain to line up that shot on side armor.

Sadly all of those options are to expensive to spam, and with the exception of kans, hit a point of diminishing returns on effectiveness of investment.

I take issue with your points. I think the point of diminishing returns for rokkits is much higher than any other anti-tank weapon in the game because it is Assault. You're also misleading about the accuracy of the platforms. Kans are what, 45 points with a Rokkit? Koptas are 45, and Buggies are 35 or 40, right? (I'm posting from school and don't have my codex, so sue me.) You can get three Tank Bustas or three Boyz with Rokkits for 45 and 48 points respectively. Not only do you have the 33% higher effective accuracy, you have a triple the damage potential. What you sacrifice is speed, but the only choice that can really use its speed effectively is the Kopta.

I think what labmouse42 means by diminishing returns is that with buggies and koptas, taking more than 2 in a squad, while it does increase your chances of doing serious damage, the squad can only shoot at one target, thus diminishing the cost-benefit usefulness of large squads.

Now, in response to your point about getting 3 tankbusters or 3 rokkit boyz for 45/48 points, I personally would choose the Deffkopta every time. My reasoning is as follows.

3 tankbusters are the same point cost as one rokkit deffkopta. At BS2, the Tankbustas will get 1 hit for their 3 rokkits fired, while the Deffkopta has about a 55% chance of getting a hit. If we were to isolate these percentages, yes, the Tankbustas would be better. However, 40k does not exist in a vaccum.

Firstly, Tankbustas have a minimum mob size of 5. Deffkoptas can be taken individually. Tankbustas must have a transport, or are left slogging with a 6+ armor save. Koptas have 12" move, with the option of a 24" turboboost. They have a 4+ armor save and 2 wounds, and can gain a 3+ invul with turboboost.

So, your cost for fielding your tankbustas is going to be higher due to a transport. Your only options are battlewagon, running you at least 100, or a looted wagon, with it's unreliable "Don't Press Dat!" Additionally, they can only move 6" if they want to fire from within the transport, or disembark after 12".

Meanwhile, the Deffkopta needs no external support.

Lastly, the Deffkopta has Scout. The ability to 24" turboboost for first turn side armor, or outflank for lategame side/rear is invaluable.

So, in conclusion, Deffkoptas are superior to Tankbustas, in my opinion, because (A) of their ability to run without support, making them cheaper. (B) Their added survivability in the form of 4+ armor, 2 wounds, and turboboost. Also, (C) Scout allowing for better angles of attack.

Koptas are the way to go. Thier TL rokkits make them more reliable. They are a bit point heavy depending on how many you want to take At 45p, a squad of 5 will run you 225p.

The thing is depending on what your list is and your playstyle is either can work. Deffkoptas are useful in a mech list, but in a horde list they go down turn one from one or two lascannon shots. Sure it might bag a tank, but it might not and what did it prevent a lascannon from shooting a boyz mob. In a mech list the deffkoptas make your opponents have two options that are bad A)ignore the koptas, and let them bag some tanks or B) ignore the wall of metal death filled with voracious killing machines flying towards thier men. This leads them to make mistakes. Deffkoptas favor a more aggresive approch but are ultimatly less reliable than a mob of tankbustas. Tankbustas, in large numbers, can reliably, for orks anyway, destroy almost any tank in the game. However, they are still need a coversave or a transport to avoid being a crater that smells suspiciously of ork. This makes them more expensive than deffkoptas. Tankbustas can be put into any type of list given the type of protection they recieve. They can also be used defensively as has already been illustrated. So in essense both can work, but I would always go for...
MOAR POWAR KLAWZ

I spam the hell out of Rokkits. I put them in mobs, on my trukks, on my deffkoptas, war buggies, killa kanz! I put as many as I can. BS2 sucks yes but they are necessary

Any experienced Ork player knows and any novice player will learn is the worst POSSIBLE thing is to relay on your Power Klaws for Anti-tank. Because what happens is you take your mob and charge up there getting all your Orks into base contact with a transport and at best your wreck it but now since you can't consolidate off a vehicle kill your standing there in a nice clump just begging to get a flamer template or a pie plate on you. At worst you explode it and even str 3 ap - will kill some of your boyz and your still standing there in a nice tight clump. Understand just because you have rokkits in your unit doesn't mean you should be firing them every turn. I only fire my rokkits right before I assault hoping to crack those transports before my boyz get in there

DarkHound wrote:I take issue with your points. I think the point of diminishing returns for rokkits is much higher than any other anti-tank weapon in the game because it is Assault. You're also misleading about the accuracy of the platforms. Kans are what, 45 points with a Rokkit? Koptas are 45, and Buggies are 35 or 40, right? (I'm posting from school and don't have my codex, so sue me.) You can get three Tank Bustas or three Boyz with Rokkits for 45 and 48 points respectively. Not only do you have the 33% higher effective accuracy, you have a triple the damage potential. What you sacrifice is speed, but the only choice that can really use its speed effectively is the Kopta.

Tankbustas are the cheapest way to get rokkits, but they have the drawback of ulta-fragility. With only 15 boys, its frightfully easy to drop below the fearless threshold, and can be shot to bits by 10 rapid firing marines. To make matters worse they don't get a dedicated transport so have to either ride in a BW or slog it on the ground. At 15 points a pop for T4 6+ save models, its just to fragile to be effective, so they need to be put into a BW to keep them from getting demolished.

15 of them w/PK bosspole nob 255 points. You can put them in a BW with 4 mounted rokkits kannon, grot riggas, and red paint for another 150 points bringing your total to 405 points for 20 STR 8 BS 2 shots.

The problem is they are to expensive for what they do. If you had one such squad in a 2000 point game, you could use it to destroy transports pretty easily, but fielding 3 of them would leave you to few points for other tasks, such as assaulting, etc.

QED - There rapidly hits a point of dimishing returns for rokkits in ork armies, a few are great (I would argue critical) for destroying transports, throwing wounds on MC, etc, but to many of them will chew up to many of your points, leaving you without the boys to the rest of your strategy.

General_Chaos wrote:I spam the hell out of Rokkits. I put them in mobs, on my trukks, on my deffkoptas, war buggies, killa kanz! I put as many as I can. BS2 sucks yes but they are necessary

Any experienced Ork player knows and any novice player will learn is the worst POSSIBLE thing is to relay on your Power Klaws for Anti-tank. Because what happens is you take your mob and charge up there getting all your Orks into base contact with a transport and at best your wreck it but now since you can't consolidate off a vehicle kill your standing there in a nice clump just begging to get a flamer template or a pie plate on you. At worst you explode it and even str 3 ap - will kill some of your boyz and your still standing there in a nice tight clump. Understand just because you have rokkits in your unit doesn't mean you should be firing them every turn. I only fire my rokkits right before I assault hoping to crack those transports before my boyz get in there

My more power klaws comment was a joke based on the fact that all ork players I know seem to think power klaws are the only thing that are worth taking for anti-tank.

Addicted to Bleach wrote:My more power klaws comment was a joke based on the fact that all ork players I know seem to think power klaws are the only thing that are worth taking for anti-tank.

A joke? It's simple fact.

@Norwulf: Why only scout 12"? You can Turbo because they be Jetbikes of doom!

Gwar! wrote:

Addicted to Bleach wrote:My more power klaws comment was a joke based on the fact that all ork players I know seem to think power klaws are the only thing that are worth taking for anti-tank.

A joke? It's simple fact.

@Norwulf: Why only scout 12"? You can Turbo because they be Jetbikes of doom!

Well that and Deff Rollas but not everyone can fit in Wagons for every list. Klaws can go in every ork list pretty much

shealyr wrote:the squad can only shoot at one target, thus diminishing the cost-benefit usefulness of large squads.

All hail the mighty bomb-squig! They increase your output by nearly 50%, and at a second target no less. Double kills are something euphoric in a game like 40k.

shealyr wrote:However, 40k does not exist in a vaccum... So, in conclusion, Deffkoptas are superior to Tankbustas, in my opinion, because (A) of their ability to run without support, making them cheaper.

I'd argue that if their support must be taken it doesn't change the effective cost because 40k is not a vacuum.

labmouse42 and shealyr both wrote:Tankbustas must be put in a Battlewagon.

To which I point at my list. Not a single vehicle in sight, and I'd say the Tankbustas are even more effective for it. Maintaining Fearless is much less important for Tankbustas, as they can take a Boss Pole.

labmouse42 wrote:but too many of them will chew up to many of your points

Too much of anything is too much for no other reason than the qualifier "too much." The important question would be: how much is too much? To which I'd say that it is hard to hit too much, and so long as you have a comfortable selection of Troops you'll be fine. I can say that with confidence this because that's the question I've been asking myself when running this list. Orks and Tyranids will have enough anti-everything-else just from picking up the manditory slots. Most of what remains should be thrown at anti-tank in one form or another, as that is your biggest weakness.

I think you guys are stuck on how they don't work in Mech lists, and we're argueing past each other. I'm argueing that they work swimmingly in hordes.

DarkHound wrote:
I think you guys are stuck on how they don't work in Mech lists, and we're argueing past each other. I'm argueing that they work swimmingly in hordes.

Strange that the source of rokkits i see in horde lists are either kans or suicide koptas

kenshin620 wrote:Strange that the source of rokkits i see in horde lists are either kans or suicide koptas

Now that was really rude. By that you mean 'your army isn't widely used so your list, and by extension the person who built the list, can't be good.' I'll just point at Dash of Pepper; he's kicking ass with a Necron list he built himself.

DarkHound wrote:To which I point at my list. Not a single vehicle in sight, and I'd say the Tankbustas are even more effective for it. Maintaining Fearless is much less important for Tankbustas, as they can take a Boss Pole.

Hey, if it works for you then keep doing it. The meta at my LFGS has included a lot of long range weapons, and I've seen my boys eat a lot of HB and ML fire. When their 6 point boys, I laugh. When their 15 point models, its not so funny anymore.

DarkHound wrote:Too much of anything is too much for no other reason than the qualifier "too much." The important question would be: how much is too much? To which I'd say that it is hard to hit too much

Thats easy. When you have not valid targets to shoot at, then its to much. Rokkits only have 24" range, so they must be fairly close to shoot. If you have 45 of them, odds are good that where you want them to be will be overcrowded.

There is also their limited effective targets. Sure, they are great vs light-medium armor, and good vs MC. Against MEQ they are great when there is no cover save, but as soon as cover saves are allowed they really begin to fall short. When killing MEQ outside transports, shoota/slugga boys are the boys for the job.

The nice thing of koptas is their ability to move quickly, thus lowering the chance of over-saturation of models. (Which is a problem orks have if they don't want to be template bait)

I'm argueing that they work swimmingly in hordes.

I have 10 tankbustas and I have fielded them a number of times when I have a spare 150 points in my horde. About half the time they are shot up and run off the board, and the other times my opponents don't know any better.
I would say they worked swimmingly when my friend only brought melta guns / MM / LC for his heavy weapons and/or did now know about orks well enough to know what tankbustas can do.

Maybe were talking past eachother. I also think that the meta in our FLGS is different, which makes the games play differently. Either way its a great conversation

Let's ignore the issue of "too much," as my list has about as many rokkits as it can take and I actually want more. It is unreasonable to accidently hit too much and therefore moot.

In my build, Tankbustas aren't so much an offensive unit as a defensive one. They are mixed in with the horde to pop transports and ward away Tank Shocks. Meanwhile the horde protects the Tankbustas from close combat and gives them cover against shooting. They simply aren't there for backfield clearing.

What I do have for offensive anti-tank are the Koptas and Wazdakka. For anyone not familiar with Wazdakka, he's T6 with 3 wounds, can Turbo-boost and still fire his S8 AP4 Assault 4 gun. Plus he's still a Warboss with a Powerklaw. They are both awesome for reaching out across the board, both in shooting and close combat.

My list has worked as a number of mutations. The core is KFF Mek, Tankbustas, 90 or so Boyz. That chunk functions really well by itself, and is good at making everything in a 36" diameter on the board dead. Then you need to add things that can reach past that 36" bubble. In this version I've got Wazdakka, the Bikers and Koptas. I've run Snikrot, a fleet of Buggies before with some success. I've run Lootas and Snikrot before, but I dislike the immobility of Lootas which is why I took Tankbustas in the first place. I'm really tempted to try a wholy independant Dread-bash. Take a good 10 walkers and march them up one side of the board, then take your 100+ boyz and march them up the other. Why not just run it like a Kan Wall? Because deployment congestion is a bitch.

So that's my answer to the question of range.

IMO: the only place for Rokkits in an ork list is on Killa Kans(BS3) and on Deffcoptas(Twin-linked)