Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I'm currently working up an MC/Defiler/Summoned Daemon army, and it has been suggested on multiple occasions that I take some Chaos Dreads. I can certainly see the reasoning and the appeal of yet another big model for the enemy to worry about. Problem is, the Chaos Gods rarely seem to smile on my dice rolls, and the dread's tendency to murder his own team has made me a bit wary of fielding them up until now. Regardless, I'm planning on biting the bullet (hopefully not literally) and fielding a few, but I'm unsure how best to arm them. I'm currently just leaning towards all CCW arms and replacing one of the bolters with a flamer, so that if (when!) they go crazy I won't end up blasting myself with, say, a lascannon.

The rest of my army is very assaulty, so a couple CCW dreads should fit in well.

What do you guys think? How do you normally arm your lunatic dreads?

It might be something to read the 5th edition Walker rules. Your Dreadnought has a 45 degree line of sight forward from its weapons. Unless you let friendly models stray into that zone, any Fire Frenzy is going to hit the enemy.

With that in mind, I'd suggest a Plasma Cannon, Heavy Flamer, and Extra Armour.

You know, I hadn't considered the arc of fire. Big guns suddenly sound much more viable. Thanks


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: I take that back. The codex specifically say when it goes crazy that it has to pivot towards the closest thing and fire, so the firing arc does not keep you safe.

Well, some consider the "nearest visible model" something that is in the 45 degree firing arc as this is the dreadnaught's vision. This interpretation makes the shooting dreds viable and is technically RAW.

The two reasons to take dreds as CSM:

1. Long range that isn't a coveted heavy support choice
2. Access to plasma cannons and multi meltas

Add this to the fact that they are cheap and have 3 attack base and you have an alright unit. The main problem is the randomness. I used them in a few games and in one of the games the CC dread had a fire frenzy twice and the shooting one was forced to fleet Not good.

Overall, they are about as ok as it gets IMO; not great, though not horrible as some would suggest.

Some people will call the 45 degree vision interpretation of Dreads cheesy, but it is precisely following the rules, so they really don't have a leg to stand on.

Even with that in mind, however, one of the most effective versions of the Dreadnought for Loyalists, the double TL-Autocannon "Rifleman" style, doesn't work quite as well for Chaos, since keeping any Dread in the back of the field increases the chances your own units will wander into the field of fire. That said, if your rifleman Dread does Fire Frenzy and happen to hit the right enemy, I defy any light vehicle to come out unscathed from 8 Twin-linked BS4 Autocannon shots.

alanedomain wrote:Some people will call the 45 degree vision interpretation of Dreads cheesy, but it is precisely following the rules, so they really don't have a leg to stand on.

Yes they do. Fire Frenzy tells you to pivot. Normal dreads can pivot in the shooting phase to face any target they wish. Frenzied dreads pivot to face the closest target.

Closest VISIBLE target.

I think it's so that every weapon will be able to fire...

Maenus_Rajhana:

Actually no, the Codex says to pivot towards the closest visible unit. That means whatever unit the Dreadnought pivots towards has to be in its line of sight in the first place.

Nurglitch wrote:Maenus_Rajhana:

Actually no, the Codex says to pivot towards the closest visible unit. That means whatever unit the Dreadnought pivots towards has to be in its line of sight in the first place.

That's based on the assumption that visible means "something to which the dreadnought has LOS from one or more of its weapons in it's current facing." Visiible is undefined anywhere in the rules. It could just as easily mean "something to which the dreadnought can potentially draw LOS from one of its weapons" since we know dreads can pivot in the shooting phase and indeed the fire frenzy rule tells you to do just that.

I prefer the latter meaning of visible. I think the former is preferred by players who really want to be able to use careful movement to guarantee their dreads won't hurt their own side. But to each his own. GW won't address it before the next codex and probably not even then. Maybe if there's a spiffy new plastic chaos dread model....

There's plenty that's undefined in the rules. But reasonable English speakers would agree that whatever is in line of sight is visible. However, shoehorning "potential" into a sentence that talks about what is actually visible is making stuff up.

Nurglitch wrote:However, shoehorning "potential" into a sentence that talks about what is actually visible is making stuff up.

+1

This is one of those situations where what a rule might have been meant to accomplish is different from what it actually does. The assumption, based on fluff and a cursory look at the Fire Frenzy rule, is that the Dread whirls around and unloads on the guys next to it just because he's pissed off, which is a valid assumption from a fluff point of view, but is unsupported by the rules. Turning your Dread more than 22.5 degrees in any direction during Fire Frenzy (i.e., outside its line of sight) may be characterful, but is actually cheating.

It's sortof like diversified Nob Squads. The various and sundry equipment options were presumably written just so you could kit out your Nobz in any precise way you wanted to, not to make them invincible. Logically, there's no reason a group of Orks should be harder to kill just because each guy carries slightly different equipment, but that's how the wound allocation rules make it happen regardless of our expectations.

These two examples have different effects, but the source of the issue is the same: cognitive dissonance between what you would infer the intended meaning of a rule to be, and how you understand the literal text in front of you. In the absence of any FAQs or errata on the subject, though, the only fair thing is to follow the rules as written. It is true that you have to assume that "visible" and "in line of sight" mean the same thing, but I don't think that's really much of a leap.

Nurglitch wrote:There's plenty that's undefined in the rules. But reasonable English speakers would agree that whatever is in line of sight is visible.

Sure whatever is in LOS is certainly visible, but it is not automatically true that being out of LOS is not visible for a walker. The walker rules say dreads are free to choose any target by rotating to face it and then checking LOS. They don't have to have it in LOS at the start of the shooting phase. If something is not visible to them how can they pivot to face it?

So in the case of a chaos dread how do you know a target is not visible without pivoting to face it and checking LOS?

alanedomain wrote:Turning your Dread more than 22.5 degrees in any direction during Fire Frenzy (i.e., outside its line of sight) may be characterful, but is actually cheating.

That's a good one. LOL. Dreads can rotate to face any target. What do you do in Fire Frenzy if there is no unit already in the LOS of the dread? You have to pivot to find another target and there's no 22.5 degree limitation.

Maybe if you think of it as the usual rules allowing Walkers to pivot during the Shooting phase prior to shooting, and the Crazed rule requiring the Chaos Dreadnought to pivot in a particular direction, it'll make more sense to you.

Put another way, you know the target is visible because it lies within the 45 degree line of sight of the Dreadnought's weapons. If it is visible, then you pivot the Dreadnought towards it.

Arschbombe wrote:

That's a good one. LOL. Dreads can rotate to face any target. What do you do in Fire Frenzy if there is no unit already in the LOS of the dread? You have to pivot to find another target and there's no 22.5 degree limitation.

If there's nothing visible to the Dread in the first place (i.e. nothing within line of sight) then there are no closest units to it, so no firing would take place. Rolling that one still wasted that entire turn, though, so I'll probably still be cursing the Dice Gods, haha. Again, there is nothing in the text that says the Dread must rotate to face the closest potentially visible target, just the closest visible one.

Arschbombe wrote:

Sure whatever is in LOS is certainly visible, but it is not automatically true that being out of LOS is not visible for a walker. The walker rules say dreads are free to choose any target by rotating to face it and then checking LOS. They don't have to have it in LOS at the start of the shooting phase. If something is not visible to them how can they pivot to face it?

So in the case of a chaos dread how do you know a target is not visible without pivoting to face it and checking LOS?

This is a good point. My response is that this is the procedure used in the Shooting phase, whereas Fire Frenzy occurs at the very beginning of the turn. If it were to work like you say, you have to assume that the Dread essentially gets an entire Shooting phase just to himself before the rest of the units act, which is an understandable assumption, but not specifically proscribed in the Fire Frenzy description. Since the action happens out of order like this, you can't assume that normal Shooting phase rules apply.

Regardless, I agree that it's a poorly written rule, but we all know that GW doesn't actually know how to play the game (and certainly doesn't put it through any rigorous testing).

Nurglitch wrote:Maybe if you think of it as the usual rules allowing Walkers to pivot during the Shooting phase prior to shooting, and the Crazed rule requiring the Chaos Dreadnought to pivot in a particular direction, it'll make more sense to you.

Here's a diagram of the issue.



I'm sure you'd say that A is the closest, visible target and the dread would be required to shoot at it given your fixation on the 45 degree arcs of the dreadnought weapons. I say it's C, but whatever. You're the genius.

But here's a second diagram.



No target is in LOS of the dread weapons. Which unit is now the closest, visible unit towards which it must pivot and fire? Would it pivot towards A because it's the closest target to the front of the dread or B because it doesn't have to pivot as far to get B in arc? What about C?

I'll disagree with that last statement. GW knows how to play its game, but it doesn't necessarily know how you play your game. The game is designed so that player involvement and responsibility is required. As a design choice goes, I'm inclined to prefer it to the option of trying to design table-top video games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Arschbombe:

My genius is neither here nor there, but the rules are the rules, and those are excellent diagrams, if we assume each alphabetically labeled model is a unit.

In the case of the first diagram model A is clearly the closest visible unit given the 45 degree lines of sight you've illustrated.

In the case of the second diagram, no model is visible, and therefore there is no closest visible unit.

Nurglitch wrote:
In the case of the first diagram model A is clearly the closest visible unit given the 45 degree lines of sight you've illustrated.

I disagree of course for the reasons previously stated.

In the case of the second diagram, no model is visible, and therefore there is no closest visible unit.

So the pivot part of the crazed rule means what?

Arschbombe wrote:So the pivot part of the crazed rule means what?

It will help with flamers and getting other weapons in line.

I used to read it the way you do Arschbombe, but take a moment and analyse the actual text.

It seems Nurglitch is correct as I read it now.

I've gotta say, given that the walker shooting rules specifically say to pivot the model to face its target before drawing LoS, and the Fire Frenzy tells you to pivot towards the closest visible unit prior to the shooting, I read it the way Arschbombe does. To my mind, the "visible" distinction is there not based off the pre-pivot firing arc but rather to keep you from unloading all of your weapons at a unit behind a building or other such terrain feature.

I can certainly see why you make the distinction you do, but I can't say I agree with it. Yay for vague wording that doesn't match up with what appears to be a clear intent (to have you murder your own troops)!

Regardless, it would seem my tactics question has turned into a YMDC one.

kirsanth wrote:It will help with flamers and getting other weapons in line.

I used to read it the way you do Arschbombe, but take a moment and analyse the actual text.

It doesn't say to pivot in order make sure all weapons can fire. The pivoting is about target selection.

I've read the text and I've had this argument before. The issue is the definition of visible, a term undefined in the rules. The only place visibility of any kind for walkers is addressed in any way is in the walker rules for shooting. Those rules tell you to pivot before checking LOS, not to check LOS and then pivot. His interpretation is that you use LOS to delimit the pivot. I say you pivot to find the LOS. And really, that's all there is to it. It doesn't look like we're going to convince each other so we should probably drop it and see if the thread can be salvaged for the OP's original purpose.

Maenus_Rajhana wrote:

regardless, it would seem my tactics question has turned into a YMDC one.

Uh, yeah. Sorry about that. Unfortunately it's hard to have a discussion about chaos dread tactics when the rules for them aren't exactly clear. Tactics that work under one interpretation would be disastrous under the other.

Arschbombe wrote:It doesn't say to pivot in order make sure all weapons can fire. The pivoting is about target selection.

That is actually the issue.

"At the begining of the Shooting phase it must pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit"

This is NOT the same as walker rules for targeting.

Also, I did not mean it to come across as a "go read the rules!", I hope it did not come across that way.

hmm... At my FLGS I tried to argue this point with the firing arch but didin't word it well and the house decided that it is the standard "oh crap run from him!" way of Fire Frenzy, how would i maker a good argument to my local Black shirt while in a game? PLEASE!


BUT WE NEED TO GET BACK ON TOPIC!!!!


Honesty, just in case the people at your store see it the way you will probably see it OP, then i have 2 kits that i use for safteys sake.


1. I use dual CCW, Extra Armor, HEavy Flamer: It works well esp against orks, BA, assaulty armies, 5 attacks on the charge? awesome! especially if you have blood rage :p

2: CW, Heavy Flamer, Missle Launcher: Works very well and you have some long range/slight horde support, plus if you fire frenzy you can always use the frag Missle, its never stated that you can't!

and lastly i saw earlier someone told you to take a Rifleman dred? Those are illegal in the CSM codex, though you can have a Missle launcher and any other weapon (aside form another ML which is lame :()

You folks do realise than line of sight to a model is much different then line of sight within a fireing arc. Just because a model only has a 45 degree firing arc does not mean that is can only see that little slice of the board. Weapon line of sight vs model line of sight are different. I can draw be in a situation with hull mounted weapons that i can see a model within my line of sight, but not within my fireing arcs at all.

Actually Doubled, no you can't. For vehicles, including walkers, their LoS is limited to their firing archs.

IronfrontAlex wrote:
and lastly i saw earlier someone told you to take a Rifleman dred? Those are illegal in the CSM codex, though you can have a Missle launcher and any other weapon (aside form another ML which is lame :()

This is true, that was my oversight. However, Missile Launcher and Autocannon might make for a similarly effective shooting walker, though it does carry risks depending on your interpretation of the Fire Frenzy rule.

In terms of a riflemen dred loadout, Plasma Cannon + ML is a popular loadout due to its flexibility. Against hordes you get 2 blast templates, against MEQs you get an AP2 and AP3 weapon and against armour you get a str 7 and str 8 weapon. Whilst unlikely, if a player manages to get an ideal the fire frenzy, the thought of dropping 4 blast templates onto a horde unit is hilarious.

This being said, 2 x DCCW + HF or DCCW + ML + HF are the most popular load outs due to being fairly fire frenzy safe. Frag missiles and bolter fire are nothing to be scared about especially when the dread is paired with a rhino.

A good tactic with any Chaos dread armed with a str 7 weapon or less, is to pair them with a landraider.

How do people play the Death Company Dreads with rage? I thought that they had a 180 degree LOS when it applies to the rage rule...

If you're in a situation where people are still playing Walkers by the 4th edition rules, then arming them with Twin-Linked Heavy Bolters and Heavy Flamers, and deploying them using the buddy-system, means that if one or the other loops out then they'll just open fire with S5 weapons on each other's AV12 side armour until they can close with the enemy, when they can split up.

svendrex:

Read the 5th edition Walker rules. As someone else has already point out, vehicle line of sight is defined by its ranged weapon mounts.

Nurglitch wrote:If you're in a situation where people are still playing Walkers by the 4th edition rules, then arming them with Twin-Linked Heavy Bolters and Heavy Flamers, and deploying them using the buddy-system, means that if one or the other loops out then they'll just open fire with S5 weapons on each other's AV12 side armour until they can close with the enemy, when they can split up.

svendrex:

Read the 5th edition Walker rules. As someone else has already point out, vehicle line of sight is defined by its ranged weapon mounts.

Agreed- I call it the phalanx. My friends generally play by letting the dreads pivot out of the spirit of the rule, and 3 dreads marching shoulder to shoulder up the field is often hilarious and/or devastating. 4 stars

No target is in LOS of the dread weapons. Which unit is now the closest, visible unit towards which it must pivot and fire?

Did anyone else chuckle at that?

I must admit, I did giggle a bit.