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The Duke's Deepstrike rule allows units to deepstrike. Does that mean unit raiders that deepstrike can assault when they hit the table? There is nothing in the language that says no, but it doesn't seem right to me. Thoughts?

RaW they can, so have fun with it until the FAQ comes out

RaW no they can't assault rulebook pg 95 under deepstrike

Assaulting and moving are prohibited after deepstriking by the BRB page 95 as stated above. Unless the rule for duke has a special allowance to ignore this, then no they cannot assault afterwards. My DE codex is at home so I cannot look at exact wording.

"...all Raiders, Venoms, and Ravagers in the same army as Duke Sliscus have the Deep Strike special rule."(pg.51) RaW,he gives deep strike to the vehicles but does nothing to eliminate the other limitations.

If that is the wording then they gain DS with all advantages and disadvantages. Including the not being able to assault that turn.

The wording simply says "they may deepstrike [said vehicles]". That's it.

So they can't assault.

They CAN hop out however, and shoot.

Gorechild wrote:

RaW they can, so have fun with it until the FAQ comes out

So by your logic Gorechild I can deepstrike my BA Land Raider full of Termintors and assault with the termintors I don't think so!

So many people think that because a vehicle lets you assault out of it that that can somehow circumvent the rulebook. As everyone else has stated Pg 95 of the BRB states that after a unit deepstrikes you can not assault, it doesn't matter whether your in a vehicle or not (I believe thats covered somewhere actually, not sure where though) even if that vehicle has the assault vehicle special rule or is open topped.

The way I see it GW should add a rule into the rulebook called common sense. If it seems to good to be true, such as Land Raider deepstriking full of terminators that then assault, it probably is.

Going to be a little interesting seeing Raiders deep strike as they will not benefit from an inertial guidance system like a drop pod so will not be able to stop themselves from landing in bad places.

Sanguinis wrote:Gorechild wrote:
So many people think that because a vehicle lets you assault out of it that that can somehow circumvent the rulebook. As everyone else has stated Pg 95 of the BRB states that after a unit deepstrikes you can not assault, it doesn't matter whether your in a vehicle or not (I believe thats covered somewhere actually, not sure where though) even if that vehicle has the assault vehicle special rule or is open topped.

I know in the blood angels codex the make specific mention of assault vehicles not allowing you to assault on the turn the vehicle deep strikes. I dont have a copy of the DE codex so I cant say for sure what theirs says.

When you deep strike in a vehicle you are allowed to disembark, to shoot, or to run(in shooting phase).

It doesn't need to there is as has been said many time a stricture against assaulting the turn one deepstrikes.

The Rule is in the BRB page 95 Paragraph 7.

Some try to say that the unit inside the transport is not deepstriking; I always then point them to paragraph 5, which says that the unit may not move except to disembark from a transport(meaning that if the transport deepstrikes the unit inside does as well).

Kommissar Kel wrote:The Rule is in the BRB page 95 Paragraph 7.

Some try to say that the unit inside the transport is not deepstriking; I always then point them to paragraph 5, which says that the unit may not move except to disembark from a transport(meaning that if the transport deepstrikes the unit inside does as well).

Paragraph 5 says nothing about passengers, neither does paragraph 7. Granted, they are both poorly written, but ultimately they still only refer to the unit that is deep striking. Dedicated transports are separate units from the troops that they carry. There is not any rule, codex, errata, or faq that says passengers in a dedicated transport that is deepstriking count as deepstriking as well. If they had wanted all passengers in a deep striking transport to count as also deep striking they would have, or should have, put it in the rulebook or errata. The fact is that the dark eldar have to only combination of rules and transport types that allow this, since nobody else's deep striking transports are open topped. I can understand why people don't like it, especially after dropping a mint on mech armies. An army of haywire grenade wyches killing all your stationary vehicles would suck.

Lots of people are just dismissing it off hand and saying page 95 disallows it, but it doesn't in any way. Until it's faqed, if it ever is, Dark Eldar get to assault out of deep striking raiders and venoms. Rage and mock until the rooster crows, but until someone produces something official that says any passengers in a deep striking vehicle also considered deep striking, it's perfectly legal for a DE player to do. And it's pretty much got to say just that. Pointing out page 95 again is an auto arguement loss, and so is bringing up the wording in drop pod rules - they have Drop Pod Assault, not deep strike. It's RAW, fits fluff, and definately fits the goal of selling lots of DE models.

Ok angrybob then by your logic I can deepstrike my Blood Angels Land Raider (which is legal, look it up in the Blood Angels codex) then, because the Land Raider is an assault vehicle, I can proceed to assault you with my 5 Assault Terminators armed with Lightning Claws and a Sanguinary Priest that same turn.

Man I want to play you in a game now!

Sanguinis wrote:Ok angrybob then by your logic I can deepstrike my Blood Angels Land Raider (which is legal, look it up in the Blood Angels codex) then, because the Land Raider is an assault vehicle, I can proceed to assault you with my 5 Assault Terminators armed with Lightning Claws and a Sanguinary Priest that same turn.

Man I want to play you in a game now!

Well, that's not really my logic since mine follows the rules, and that blatantly breaks them. The Assault Vehicle rules for BA land raiders specifically state that units that deep strike within the land raider cannont assault on the turn it arrives.

Sanguinis wrote:Man I want to play you in a game now!

Probably not, landraider versus haywire grenades and whatnot.

Oh, please.

From paragraph 5:

In the Movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a deep striking transport vehicle.

Start of paragraph 6:

In that turn's Shooting phase, these units...

Start of paragraph 7:

In that turn's Assault phase, however, these units may not launch an assault...

1. 'These units' in paragraph 5 refers to deep striking units.
2. The referent of 'these units' is preserved through the three paragraphs.
3. Units that can disembark from a deep striking vehicle are included in the class of deep striking units.
4. A unit can disembark from a deep striking vehicle if and only if they are embarked on the vehicle when it deep strikes.
5. Thus, units embarked in a deep striking vehicle when it deep strikes are themselves deep striking units.
6. Deep striking units cannot assault on the turn in which they enter play.
7. Therefore, units embarked in a deep striking vehicle when it deep strikes cannot assault in the turn in which they enter play.

The rulebook is full of unclear writing, but this isn't an example of it.

Thank you hesperus for typing that so i do not have to.

Angrybob; hesperus wrote pretty much exactly what i would have, and the fact that the first sentence of paragrah 5 states deepstriking units cannot move except to disembark shows us that units inside a deepstriking vehicle are in fact deepstriking as well.

The only problem is that they do not tell us this in extremely plain language, but instead expect that those reading the rulebook have some degree of reading comprehension(unfortunately this manner of expectation fails when you apply foreign language speakers attempting to glean rules from an english rule-set).

Indeed. thank you for taking the time to write out a mostly correct list of things that's already been said. Unfortunately, none of it comes to anything with more weight than "Because I, a guy on a message board says so, and some other message board guys agree with me." The problem is that your item #3 is false until shown to be true.

Hesperus wrote:3. Units that can disembark from a deep striking vehicle are included in the class of deep striking units.

Which leads to a false conclusion in item #7.

Hesperus wrote:7. Therefore, units embarked in a deep striking vehicle when it deep strikes cannot assault in the turn in which they enter play.

I once again invite you to provide a definitive ruling from any official source that corroborates your assertion in item #3. And really guys, appeals to “reading comprehension” or “common sense” are meaningless. I’ve researched this backwards and forwards and what I’m saying is the exact, literal interpretation of the official ruleset. And it will be until it’s faqed otherwise. If anyone has something solid other than simply not wanting it to be true I would really love to see it because it will save me the trouble of making an opponent find it the first time I do it in a tournament.But until you do so, your item #3 and by extension item #7 carries no more weight than a house rule for games in your basement. The referent in paragraph 5 is the same as it is in paragraphs 1 through 8, it doesn’t switch in paragraph 5 and then back again in paragraph 8. The entire section is about the rules for a deep striking unit. The Baron’s special rule gives deep strike to all ravagers, raiders, and venoms only. Dedicated transports are explicitly designated as different units than the troops they carry. As far as the transported unit is concerned, they are disembarking from a vehicle moving at cruising speed. And units disembarking from an open topped transport get to assault, even if it moved. A simple sentence in the rules about passengers sharing the same status as the transport would have been nice, but it doesn’t exist.

Hesperus wrote:The rulebook is full of unclear writing, but this isn't an example of it.

No, really, it is. Clear writing would be “Passengers riding in a deep striking vehicle are/are not considered to be deep striking.” As much effort and detail that went into vehicle speeds, who can do what at what speeds, and when and how troops can get on and off, if they wanted that to be the rule they should have (and will be forced to now) directly addressed it.

angrybob wrote:
it will save me the trouble of making an opponent find it the first time I do it in a tournament.

That's fine. Just don't /nerdragequit when the TO rules against you when your opponent complains.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

angrybob wrote:The entire section is about the rules for a deep striking unit. The Baron’s special rule gives deep strike to all ravagers, raiders, and venoms only. Dedicated transports are explicitly designated as different units than the troops they carry.

Except when they're held back in reserves (which Deep Strike is). In that instance, they are considered one in the same - that is why you roll once for them together and not separate reserve rolls for the transport and for the unit inside.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

angrybob wrote:

Hesperus wrote:3. Units that can disembark from a deep striking vehicle are included in the class of deep striking units.

Which leads to a false conclusion in item #7.

So, you're suggesting that the "these units may not move any further, other than to disembark" isn't talking about the transported units, even though it specifically mentions transported units? That "these units" is just an active plural noun for that moment and that all the other examples aren't talking about the same "these units" that that sentence is referring to?

Since we don't know how to differentiate between the two definitions of "these units", could you point out to me in the rulebook where it defines the two and separates them?

Soooo, angrybob wants people to arrive via DS and assault?
...
Sorry I have nothing to add

Agreed Chris....

I'd love to see them try it in a tournament. The looks of incredulity on peoples faces would be a sight to see....

Angrybob's entire argument boils down to: I fail at reading comprehension and applied logic, therefore since rule requires thinking I can ignore it.

He has a US flag next to his name so i assume he is a native English speaker, Although he could be a youngling and not yet taken English-10(as in tenth grade English), so there may be an excuse there.

I will explain it again in plain English; Paragraph 5 states that Models cannot move after deepstriking, except to disembark this means that, while not plainly stated, Model inside of a deepstriking transport are in fact deepstriking. If models inside of a deepstriking transport are in fact deepstriking, then they must follow all other rules for deepstriking.

For all of the others stating that Deepstriking Transports with Assault Ramps would allow the models within to assault out of them via Angrybob's assertions: re-read the relevent Assault ramp rules(on those models). the Drop pods all, also specifically(and superfluously) restrict assault on the turn it, and it's contents deep strike(But the previous modes specifically allowed it so that would make sense to reiterate it)

angrybob wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:The Rule is in the BRB page 95 Paragraph 7.

Some try to say that the unit inside the transport is not deepstriking; I always then point them to paragraph 5, which says that the unit may not move except to disembark from a transport(meaning that if the transport deepstrikes the unit inside does as well).

Paragraph 5 says nothing about passengers, neither does paragraph 7. Granted, they are both poorly written, but ultimately they still only refer to the unit that is deep striking. Dedicated transports are separate units from the troops that they carry. There is not any rule, codex, errata, or faq that says passengers in a dedicated transport that is deepstriking count as deepstriking as well. If they had wanted all passengers in a deep striking transport to count as also deep striking they would have, or should have, put it in the rulebook or errata. The fact is that the dark eldar have to only combination of rules and transport types that allow this, since nobody else's deep striking transports are open topped. I can understand why people don't like it, especially after dropping a mint on mech armies. An army of haywire grenade wyches killing all your stationary vehicles would suck.

Lots of people are just dismissing it off hand and saying page 95 disallows it, but it doesn't in any way. Until it's faqed, if it ever is, Dark Eldar get to assault out of deep striking raiders and venoms. Rage and mock until the rooster crows, but until someone produces something official that says any passengers in a deep striking vehicle also considered deep striking, it's perfectly legal for a DE player to do. And it's pretty much got to say just that. Pointing out page 95 again is an auto arguement loss, and so is bringing up the wording in drop pod rules - they have Drop Pod Assault, not deep strike. It's RAW, fits fluff, and definately fits the goal of selling lots of DE models.

Okay, are you making a separate roll for reserves for both the unit and the transport?

the Big book says units that deep strike can not assualt ( the only exception is vanguard due to heroic intervention). They can run/ fleet or shoot.
Its one of the perks in dukes army... ( since you dont have to buy the up grades)