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I for one like the Minotaurs. I dont mind the loko at all. They look as though they were mutated. Not just birthed. I mean they look menacing and at the same time goofy. Lets face it not all terrifying things are pretty nor strikingly good looking lol. I think they are fine we just need to see more angles on them.

I love the Character Models. You can shoot me all you want lol.

The Gors are alright thats why we do conversions.

The Razorgor seems like a prank the sculptor did to make fun of what the art director wanted to be quite honest.

The Minotaurs look like they have flipper feet rather than hooves. It's embarrassing. The Bestigors look like they looted some Space Marine shoulder pads for armor. I just don't get the "monsters of the forest and unruly disorganized hordes" feel from this; more like mutant flipper-baby cows, goat-men that like to get in straight lines and less-like goats-but-still-fairly-ugly-men that also fancy organized ranks and being generic. The Razorgor has got to be some sort of joke, it's just that bad. When the last book came out I was hooked by the art and imagery of an army of beasts and monsters from the dark heart of the forest, but this stuff is just bland at best.

The Minotaurs look like they have flipper feet rather than hooves

Minotaurs shouldn't necessarily have hooves, though GW puts their own spin on things the Minotaur as originally imagined by the ancient Greeks was a ferocious monster that appeared as a man (i.e., human body) with the head of a bull. A Minotaur with the head of a bull and the body of a bull is just a bull. If it's standing erect, then it's an anthropomorphic bull. In order to be a Minotaur, it should be at least partially human, like the early GW Minotaur Lord from circa 1989. That model had the body of a man with the head of a bull and the GW "spin" on it was the mutated reptilian dragon-like claw hand.

I think the biggest problem with the Minotaurs is they dont match any of the previous miniatures or models in the range and arent good enough on their own to really capture your interest or imagination. They strike me as a failure on the scale of Rat Ogres and Kroxigor. While everone with a Beasts army looks over at Tomb Kings Ushabti with envy.

I honestly think the closest "Beasts" thing to the minotaurs is the existing Dragon Ogres. Same really two really cool opportunities missed.

Looks like Ill be keeping my metal Khorne and Pestigors as this is the first time the reimagined plastics have really failed to overcome the metals.

As far as the minotaurs I wonder if we can petition FW to do some legs for them as part of their new FB wing. IMO legs are the huge failure. Its not that they arent dog-legged its that they arent even human looking. They just look bad. There is nothing particularly anatomical to justify them looking that way. Not even the Belgian blue reference.

Im super bummed. I really think this might be the biggest relaunch failure yet.

If you own beasts already what models will you buy? If you dont already own the Army what is inspireing enough for you to start? Id say not much.

Brother Chaplain Ginn wrote:If you own beasts already what models will you buy? If you dont already own the Army what is inspireing enough for you to start? Id say not much.

I have to agree with the above. The rules better be awesome if GW hopes to get people hooked to BoC.

Mkvenner wrote:I mean they look menacing and at the same time goofy.

yeah.... I am not really into having a goofy army. That's why I chose to do beastmen in the first place.

If the Razorgor and minotaurs were part of a wide release involving lots of new options, then they could be just the part of the army that we don't buy because the models suck. But the real problem is that it appears that lots of options (dragon ogres and chaos trolls, which actually look good compared to the minotaurs) have been removed with few options being added to replace them. And those new options have uninspiring models. So without extensive converting or proxying, most Beastman armies are going to be that much more uninspiring.

Those minotaurs and especially that razorgor are just plain bad. Worse than bad. If they were a release by one of these two-bit sculpting companies that works out of someone's basement on a shoestring budget, they'd be bad. Coming from the largest company in the business (a company so big, they have the gall to claim it's the "GW hobby", not the "miniatures hobby"), it's downright embarassing. Someone should be humiliated over this. Someone should lose their job over this. Maybe not the sculptor, but definitely whoever gave them the green light for production.

But maybe this is all my fault. Maybe I'm just not thinking of things correctly. Because when I think of the Beasts of Chaos, I think of society's wretched outcast mutants cavorting with reckless abandon around pyres in the dark places where no mortal goes. I think of creatures living off of whatever scraps they can steal, worshipping dark, chthonic gods from older times whose names have even been forgotten even by the men who worship Chaos, and forging alliances with monsters that would as soon kill them as march to war with them. You could almost pity these creatures, if it weren't for how every full moon they ride through your village and murder and rape not for money, not for slaves, not for political power, but because you have the audacity to live in a house and read.
When I should have been thinking of them the way GW apparently does: muscled barnyard animals.

Brother Chaplain Ginn wrote:
If you own beasts already what models will you buy?

Well, from the look of that picture lo those many pages ago:
Gors are the same models. Exactly. Do not need.
New ungors now have stupidly-thick spears. Do not want.
New bestigors- big, awkwardly posed models with goofy exaggerated weapons. Do not want or need; will stick with my old metals.
New minotaurs = fail. Do not need; would be embarassed to own.
New heroes = mostly same as the old heroes, and the new one looks like the love child of a Grey Seer & the Dark Emissary. Do not need.
Flying infantry, maybe. But I saw no pics of the rumored gorgoyles.
Razorgor... no. Just... no. I thought it was unpossible to make a boar-based miniature sillier than the O&G piggiephants, and I am tryly saddened to be proven wrong. If I feel the need for a razorgor in my army (and it is looking more and more doubtful that I will bother to field a BoC army EVAR AGIN!), I will use a rhinox as a proxy.
What has happened to my Dragon Ogres? Where are my Chaos Trolls? (That's a rhetorical question, by the way. {A rhetorical question is one that is asked for the purposes of irony. [So please don't bother to tell me that DO have been moved to the WoC army for some unfathomable reason; I already know.]})

Rules rumors: aack.
After skirmish got the nerf in 7th, I was worried that my BoC army would be crippled. Happily this proved not to be the case. But I haven't seen any mention of a rule that allows my formed blocks of Gors to move through the woods.

I want that.

One of the things I loved... no, the thing I loved most about BoC was that they were totally different in playstyle from all the other warhammer armies. I fear that will be lost. I'm just not seeing what the Beasts will offer that other armies don't already do better. If I want to play ranked infantry, I have Empire and Dwarfs. If I want to play skirmishy points-denial, I have Dark Elves. Ambush? The ambush rule will need a drastic re-write; units that come on far out of position will never get into combat. Remember, in 6th ed., they couldn't be march-blocked.

[RANT] I've been getting more and more disenchanted with Warhammer. I feel that 7th edition was unecessary. There are only two changes that I think are improvements, surrounded by a lot of tinkering that didn't fix any of the major problems (and in fact created new problems). I have sold off my Tomb Kings, my Dogs of War, my Orcs and Goblins, and my Vampire Counts. I'm looking for a buyer for my Daemons, my Warriors of Chaos, and my Bretonnians. I never thought I would be considering adding my beloved Beasts to that list, but... golly. [END_RANT]

Rumorz is rumorz, no sense in getting upset yet. Only a few days to go before my FLGS gets their promo copy of the army book.

Will it be tears? Or cake?

[RERANT] Jabber-sclyth? Cy-gor? What's with the stupid names, anyhow? [END_RERANT]

Beasts: Crappy models with pendulum-shifting rules.

I am saddened by the loss of raiders. With Skaven, I could kinda understand the forcing of Night Runners into ranks: You assume they're less "ranked", and more a mob where someone had the misfortune of being made into other rat's meatshields.

But for Beastmen... beastmen were a raider force that hit-and-run during ambushes and the like. How does a predominantly rank-and-file army represent that? Does this mean GW now thinks they can get away with changing army canon on a whim so as to get more models to sell?

Heres to waiting to hear there is one broken magic item or spell that makes the beasts Uber. I like many others will lament their totally different play style. Cant wait for my beasts to get smashed wit stone throwers!

...walks away with hands in pockets kicking rocks.

This reminds me of when Ralphy doesnt get his BBgun. Shi**y.

Minsc wrote:Beasts: Crappy models with pendulum-shifting rules.

I am saddened by the loss of raiders. With Skaven, I could kinda understand the forcing of Night Runners into ranks: You assume they're less "ranked", and more a mob where someone had the misfortune of being made into other rat's meatshields.

But for Beastmen... beastmen were a raider force that hit-and-run during ambushes and the like. How does a predominantly rank-and-file army represent that? Does this mean GW now thinks they can get away with changing army canon on a whim so as to get more models to sell?

Dude this happens pretty much every army book ever.

The problem with GW for the last 2 years at least is that with the possible exception of SMs in 40k everytime the redo a codex/armybook they feel the need to completely change the way it plays, the effectiveness of every unit and its special rules.

WHFB and 40k are both mature games, with many editions. At this stage they should be striking for balance both within the list and vs other lists (of course you will always have a nemisis army that you struggle against) NOT rubbish like the hellpit abomination or even worse, the entire daemon codex.

The Ungors with bows is a ncie addition I think..personally I think they look better with the bows than with the spears and an actual bit of long range hurtiness is handy. With them.. I think ..still being skirmishers they'll be awkward to shoot back at as well.

I am 98% certain there is no Shaggoth/sor dragon ogres either, this is being confirmed as people see the finsihed book. Mr. Ravik had the following to say on Herdstone

Got to read it myself as well.

Gorgon ( i think it was) looks like a giant minotaur, and eats people

Cygor is a cyclops giant-gor that gets rerolls to hit against undead, daemons (I think) and things with ward saves. Tragically WS2. Stone Thrower.

Jabbersclyth is the jabberwocky thing. Flying, poison, terror, largetarget, 12" tounge attack, strength 5


Doombulls have D3 impact hits, normal minos have 1 each. Each round of combat won gives minos an extra frenzy attack for that combat (lost if combat ends or you lose a round).

Beastlord allows a reroll on the beastial roll when fighting against humans (Empire and Bretonians) which basically means it's likely the unit will get what is effectively eternal hatred. Something to do with insane courage adding in Frenzy to the unit he's with with that in-combat-roll thing

Great Bray Shaman are T5.

The Wild Lore has a spell that summons either a Jabber, Giant, Cygor or Gorgon from a board edge of your choice. Not RIP, but may aswell be from the desription. If the monster takes a wound then the caster takes a T test to see if they take a wound. If the caster dies then the monster disappears.

I agree that ungors with bows makes sense, it's very 'woodsie'.

@The razorgor:

...WOW...that's so amazingly bad. It reminds me of the warhounds, which I really hated. I didn't think they could possibly do worse than that when it comes to beasts, but WOW, they did. So much worse.

feth that, they want me to pay money for that gak? LMAO

reds8n wrote: The Ungors with bows is a ncie addition I think..personally I think they look better with the bows than with the spears and an actual bit of long range hurtiness is handy. With them.. I think ..still being skirmishers they'll be awkward to shoot back at as well.

I am 98% certain there is no Shaggoth/sor dragon ogres either, this is being confirmed as people see the finsihed book. Mr. Ravik had the following to say on Herdstone

So the answer to resculpting the dated dragon ogres is just trash it all? along with one of the best box sets the shaggoth.
Thats just sad.

I gather at least some of the thinking is that the areas the Dragon Ogres live in -- the mountains and the edges of the chaos wastes and so forth -- isn't quite the same areas as the armies this book is suppoed to be about, which is the Beastmen who dwell in the forests. Yes..I know... chariots, giants and so forth.. don't shoot the messenger. I don;t quite agree with this reasoning... it strikes me as no more unrealistic that the beastmen have a dragonogre ally than the fact that SPECIAL CHARACTER X leads 2,345 armies at the same time and fights in every small skirmish.

I'm assuming... (read : hoping !) that they will redo the Dragonogre models so they're more in line with the Shaggoth at some point... but I have no idea when this will or might be. I know there's a few models for the WoC to come still... but I'm not expecting much for that line other than a few characters and, perhaps, a couple of other wheely good units.

Sidstyler wrote:feth that, they want me to pay money for that gak? LMAO

They want you to pay a premium. Because their quality is the "best".

reds8n wrote: I'm assuming... (read : hoping !) that they will redo the Dragonogre models so they're more in line with the Shaggoth at some point... but I have no idea when this will or might be. I know there's a few models for the WoC to come still... but I'm not expecting much for that line other than a few characters and, perhaps, a couple of other wheely good units.

+1

I'll be happy when the entire "old" line of ogre type models is purged from the inventory. Ditto for the similarly done minotaurs.

The chaos orgre art in the WOC book make me worry that they'll revert...

ZF-

Thanks for moar rumors Red. Impact hits for minos was near the top of my list of changes-that-just-make-too-much-sense, glad to see they (theoretically) made it.

The cygor is bizarrely specific against Tier 0 & 1 armies, but ah well. I'm wondering whether the gorgon (straight 6's, ground-based) or the jabber (straight 5's, flying, banshee-esque shooting, hugely expensive) will become the spammed rare monster ...

- Salvage

I wonder if impact hits for infantry of a certain size might become a default rule in 8th edition.

What do they mean by "RIP" here ?

Not RIP, but may aswell be from the desription. If the monster takes a wound then the caster takes a T test to see if they take a wound. If the caster dies then the monster disappears.

BrassScorpion wrote:

Hope the minotaurs get hooves not feet.

Minotaurs are based on the monster of classical Greek mythology, Asterius, called the Minotaur, slain by Theseus. That Minotaur was a man with the head of a bull. Man with the head of a bull = Minotaur. Bull with the head of a bull = bull.

Bull with the head of a man = messed up
Anyways, can`t wait. Ive always WANTED to love the minotaurs because the idea is so neat, but now it may actually be possible

RiP = "Remains in Play" (which have a series of limitations in fantasy, such as being able to be dispelled, ending if the caster attempts a new spell, etc)

reds8n wrote:What do they mean by "RIP" here ?

Not RIP, but may aswell be from the desription. If the monster takes a wound then the caster takes a T test to see if they take a wound. If the caster dies then the monster disappears.

I think s/he's saying that you don't actually 'get' the monster free, as the death of the caster removes the summoned beast as well - and hurting the monster makes the caster's death more imminent (though great brays are apparently T5, so meh). Which is all pretty far from RiP and pretty impressive, from a game and marketing stand point ...

- Salvage

Cheers fella. I can see how that could be quite handy. Be quite cool to have the beast shaman and the opposing mage striving to control or negate the summoned beastie.

...well...as cool as rolling several D6 gets anyway.

the minatours are awful.

ranked up Beastmen are going to play much the same as Orcs & Goblins.

Looks like I wasted the effort of doing nice bases for my ungors, at least I only did one unit so far. Last time this happened my lazynes saved me, they changed chaos thugs from 25mm bases to 20mm (I had 80 of them all based), then they disapeared from the game all together, then they returned as marauders back on 25mm bases. Fortunatly I had neither re-based them or sold them at a loss in the mean time.

I thought the old bestigors were to uniform especialy in pose although I liked the models, the new unit looks like a synchronised chopping team

I really miss being able to field an army with mortals, daemons and beasts. I bought and painted units specificaly to allow me to field a mixed army for each chaos god. It would have been so easy for GW to throw in a rule to allow it.

As much as I'd love to see new Dragon Ogre models... I hope if they ever do redo them its not the same guy who sculpted those minos.... Oh looks bloated fat chaos ogres with uneccessary muscles... awsome!

I dont think anyone here is lamenting the loss of the Dragon Ogres alone.

Its the combination of give and take feeling more like a take and take.

No DragonOs and nothing cool to replace them. I guess Beasts will still come in from the table edges but just be ranked? Im open to seeing if it really matters. May make my movment phase faster. Im just trying to find a bright side.

Does anyone know if the Centigors are badass? Are there going to be lots of Centigors and Chariots with need for only one or two blocks?

Olaf the Hairy wrote:It would have been so easy for GW to throw in a rule to allow it.

It would have been easy for GW to do a lot of things. Like ask "Do these minotaur legs look bad to you?"

Minsc wrote:

Olaf the Hairy wrote:It would have been so easy for GW to throw in a rule to allow it.

It would have been easy for GW to do a lot of things. Like ask "Do these minotaur legs look bad to you?"

No because if people replied "no they are ugly"
GW might say something like " guess who have the art degree here? , us! so what we think looks good you have to agree! "

Yes that was supposed to be funny , but you'll be surprised how often similar situation pops up like that.

LunaHound wrote:

Minsc wrote:

Olaf the Hairy wrote:It would have been so easy for GW to throw in a rule to allow it.

It would have been easy for GW to do a lot of things. Like ask "Do these minotaur legs look bad to you?"

No because if people replied "no they are ugly"
GW might say something like " guess who have the art degree here? , us! so what we think looks good you have to agree! "

Yes that was supposed to be funny , but you'll be surprised how often similar situation pops up like that.

Common sense is more powerful then a degree... unless its a common sense degree

Although... they would totally do something like that

Zad Fnark wrote:

reds8n wrote: I'm assuming... (read : hoping !) that they will redo the Dragonogre models so they're more in line with the Shaggoth at some point... but I have no idea when this will or might be. I know there's a few models for the WoC to come still... but I'm not expecting much for that line other than a few characters and, perhaps, a couple of other wheely good units.

+1

I'll be happy when the entire "old" line of ogre type models is purged from the inventory. Ditto for the similarly done minotaurs.

The chaos orgre art in the WOC book make me worry that they'll revert...

ZF-

To be honest if you dont like the Minotaur models than make your own Dragon Ogres that can fit on the base size they use. I have seen some nift conversions made from plastic cold ones and Ogre Bulls. Its also somewhat cheaper. I know that many people proxy models with their own idea. Hell I am making a sentinel into an AMP suit from Avatar to sue as Ogryns in my IG army because I dont like the profiel for Sentinels.


On Beastmen release:
So I mean yeah the Razorgor is abysmal. I dont know how someone can say that is good or worthy of production but I am pretty sure those Minotuars can be made into something nice. AS for the Bestigors, its another GReatsworsd style blunder in my opinion. They had some cool artwork and since they got rid of marks they made them look like an agry mob of mountain goats hellbent on eating the Daemons of Chaos army book.

Overall yeah this release is def a miss in terms of what they could have done or rather what they SHOULD have done, which was to push them back and redo those models they produced. In terms of the characters I like them. I like the minotaurs. (shoot me, I dare you) but thee rest of the stuff looks like it was rushed because they "Have the power and resources to make so many releases in 2010".

I hope they don't do this to me beloved Blood Angels. IF they get model treatment like this there will be some killing....with fire.