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I think I got the points costs accurate for the following army, so this is what could be a nice and small core list to brainstorm around. The list would like a Sanguinary Priest in there somewhere and I'd like lascannon sponsons on the HS Predators but this means the loss of an entire AM squad and their tank. These upgrades are easy to fit in 1750p and 1850p or 2000p lists. Anyway:

1500 points Blood Angels

-Librarian, Blood Lance, Undecided 2nd Power

-5 Assault Marines, Flamer, Hand Flamer, Razorback w/ Lascannon & TL Plasma Gun
-5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Razorback w/ Lascannon & TL Plasma Gun
-5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Razorback w/ Lascannon & TL Plasma Gun
-5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Razorback w/ Lascannon & TL Plasma Gun

-Baal Predator, TL Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolters
-Baal Predator, TL Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolters
-Baal Predator, TL Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolters

-Predator, AC, Heavy Bolters
-Predator, AC, Heavy Bolters
-Predator, AC, Heavy Bolters

Therion wrote:I think I got the points costs accurate for the following army, so this is what could be a nice and small core list to brainstorm around.

1500 points Blood Angels

-Librarian, Blood Lance, Undecided 2nd Power

-5 Assault Marines, Flamer, Hand Flamer, Razorback w/ Lascannon & TL Plasma Gun
-5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Razorback w/ Lascannon & TL Plasma Gun
-5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Razorback w/ Lascannon & TL Plasma Gun
-5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Razorback w/ Lascannon & TL Plasma Gun

-Baal Predator, TL Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolters
-Baal Predator, TL Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolters
-Baal Predator, TL Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolters

-Predator, AC, Heavy Bolters
-Predator, AC, Heavy Bolters
-Predator, AC, Heavy Bolters

I was reading the new codex the other day. Some guy in the store suggested something very similar and scary. Instead of 3 predators, he suggested 3 vindicators. The baal predators will open up tanks, and the vindicators will clean up whatever come out of those tanks. Either way, I'm scare of the new BA codex.

Fast Vindicators aren't bad but for the above list you have to remember they cost 45 points more each than the Dakka Predators, and like I said above if I did have the extra points I'd still keep the Predators but just upgrade the sponsons to lascannons. To each their own.

I was thinking along the lines of a couple of furiosos, Mephiston, Librarian Drednought, 10 Death Company in Rhino, Baal with AC . . . not sure about the rest though. Possibly a Death Company Dread or 2 cos I can lol.

But I'm loving those fast vindicators . . . should be nice and mobile =D

Oshova

There are a lot of shiny new toys in the BA codex, but the most impressive unit in their codex is the sanguinary priests.

50 a pop, function as independent characters, and 3 of them can be purchased for a single elite slot.

They give a 6" bubble of FNP and FC.

Here are some possibilities with the sanguinary priests.

3 Devastater squads with Feel No Pain, 12 heavy weapons, and say add a 1 or 2 ablative marines to each squad. Devastaters with feel no pain, eat it long fangs.


2/3 missions are objective based. Shiny new toys are cool, but it's troops that win battles.

Assault squads, Tac squads, ans scouts can all have Feel No Pain and Furious Charge.

There are a lot of possibilities. In a tournament setting what would really throw people off is not to field a single vehicle, say six full assault squads with the HQ and sanguinary priests attached backed up by 3 devastator squads.

schadenfreude wrote:There are a lot of shiny new toys in the BA codex, but the most impressive unit in their codex is the sanguinary priests.

50 a pop, function as independent characters, and 3 of them can be purchased for a single elite slot.

They give a 6" bubble of FNP and FC.

Here are some possibilities with the sanguinary priests.

3 Devastater squads with Feel No Pain, 12 heavy weapons, and say add a 1 or 2 ablative marines to each squad. Devastaters with feel no pain, eat it long fangs.


2/3 missions are objective based. Shiny new toys are cool, but it's troops that win battles.

Assault squads, Tac squads, ans scouts can all have Feel No Pain and Furious Charge.

There are a lot of possibilities. In a tournament setting what would really throw people off is not to field a single vehicle, say six full assault squads with the HQ and sanguinary priests attached backed up by 3 devastator squads.

YOU!

Stop giving me reasons to start Blood angels

Fast Heavy Wepons? YES PLEASE!

FNP Devs? Where do I sign up?

OH MY GAWD
THEY HAVE BECOME SELF AWARE!
RUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I love the new blood angels, plus that list is just nasty.
I saw one list of a dark eldars, it had 15 transports, with 15 squads, all of which came down to 1,500 points.

If they're trying to redo the game with more extremes, I can appreciate that. I just wish they'd get to the other armies soon, and until then, it's looking more and more like MEQ power creep to me.

crazypsyko666 wrote:If they're trying to redo the game with more extremes, I can appreciate that, I just wish they'd get to the other armies soon, and until then, it's looking more and more like MEQ power creep to me.

How is it MEQ power creep with IG as one of, if not the, best army in the game?

i dont know either. It seems to me like everyone says, look at my uber list that will kill everything. A second later someone says, well the list that I usually run will rape that over and over.

no list is unbeatable. No list is unkillable. Nature of the game.

Yep.
Bad rolling of dice.

Dont dismiss the sanguinary priest in the honor guard

For 115 pts you get 4 veterans + sanguinary priest who has WS4 instead of 5.. According to the codex "veterans" are 20 pts each which means you may 15 points for the sanguinary priest instead of 30 you do in the elite slot..

If you want to put jump packs on them you're paying 50 pts for 5 men where as the elite entry has to pay 25 pts for 1 jump pack.. It's a decent alternative if you want to use your 3 elite slots on frag cannon dreadnoughts which can dominate entire squads.. or more terminators

Khornatedemon wrote:

crazypsyko666 wrote:If they're trying to redo the game with more extremes, I can appreciate that, I just wish they'd get to the other armies soon, and until then, it's looking more and more like MEQ power creep to me.

How is it MEQ power creep with IG as one of, if not the, best army in the game?

I'm not saying it's JUST MEQ power creep, but given the frequency of MEQ updates, (three out of... five codexes in 5th?) it's mostly marines getting a greater edge. It's really all of the 5th ed. codexes.

Except for the CSM. They don't count.

That is because marines make up the majority of their sales, every new codex is going to get better.

Do you think lightining claws will become more popular with sanguinary priest? You can have furious charge and feel no pain making them both more survivable and deadly in cc.

I think they will to an extent. Without nullzone LC's will still probably fail against rival th/ss termies. You will probably see a mix of LC's and TH's especially to offset the cost og the th's. I'm leaning toward 2-3 LC guys in a 7 man squad.

If 5 LC Terminators with Furious Charge get the charge against 5 TH/SS Terminators, they will get 20 attacks, which will result in 10 hits, 8.8888 wounds, and 2.96 kills. The remaining 2 TH/SS Terminators will respond with 4 attacks, which will result in 2 hits, 1.667 wounds, and 1.11 kills.

If the LC Terminators do not have Furious Charge, they will get 20 attacks, which will result in 10 hits, 7.5 wounds, and 2.5 kills. The remaining 2.5 TH/SS Terminators will respond with 5 attacks, which will result in 2.5 hits, 2.08 wounds, and 1.38 kills.

If the TH/SS Terminators charge, the LC Terminators will go first with 15 attacks, which will result in 7.5 hits, 5.63 wounds, and 1.88 kills. The remaining 3.12 TH/SS Terminators will respond with 9.36 attacks, which will result in 4.68 hits, 3.9 wounds, and 2.6 kills.


LC Terminators will beat TH/SS Terminators on the charge and lose to TH/SS Terminators if charged, presuming average rolls.

Yet another case that boils down to . . . OMG! You charged me, well I lost.

But as we all know this doesn't always work. On Monday, 20 Ork Boyz charge into 5 Deathwing . . . 2 rounds of combat later, the Sgt walks away covered in blood, and the remains of the orks fester on the ground =D That's how we do it in the Dark Angels baby! =D

But yeah, FC on LC is just mean mean mean . . . where can I buy them from? . . . Oh I can give them FNP for 50 points aswell? yes please? =D

Oshova

FNP actually has little effect on LC Terminators, since people are going to want to bring AP 1/2 weapons against them anyway. In my opinion, it's much stronger on TH/SS guys, since such a unit is difficult to attack with almost any weapon. However, Furious Charge is almost completely useless on TH/SS guys.

The question is, which is better: FnP on TH/SS, or FC on LC?

Fetterkey wrote:FNP actually has little effect on LC Terminators, since people are going to want to bring AP 1/2 weapons against them anyway. In my opinion, it's much stronger on TH/SS guys, since such a unit is difficult to attack with almost any weapon. However, Furious Charge is almost completely useless on TH/SS guys.

The question is, which is better: FnP on TH/SS, or FC on LC?

It all really boils down to the role. if you have them in a LR pushing forward and assaulting I'd go with the FC LC flavour. IMO anyway.


On a side note I actually went into a GW store (first time ever actually) and took a look at the 'Dex. I'm really not too worried about it, at first people will be like 'oh crap you can do what?' but eventually it'll be normal and all will be well.

It's nice that more people are getting a look at everything and finally starting to look at the drawbacks instead of the whole "OMFG BA ARE GONNA OWN EVERYONE"

The new fast vehicle blood angels look like they might just keep up with dark eldar... MAYBE. I guess a few more dark lances are in order.

3 Devastater squads with Feel No Pain, 12 heavy weapons, and say add a 1 or 2 ablative marines to each squad. Devastaters with feel no pain, eat it long fangs.

For the same price the SW will bring 15 heavy weapons. Considering FNP doesn't work against missile launcher hits I'm pretty sure the Long Fangs draw the long stick in this one. Additionally I can't really see the 50 point investment being worth it since most ranged weapons the Devastators have to worry about don't allow FNP saves, and the Devastators don't really gain anything from having furious charge. I'd still go with the fast Predators.

It's nice that more people are getting a look at everything and finally starting to look at the drawbacks instead of the whole "OMFG BA ARE GONNA OWN EVERYONE wrote:

Ive read it and even played with it.. Still trying to figure out these disadvantages? LC terminators cost the same, the land raider costs the same.. I guess having to pay 50 pts for FNP and FC within 6" is a disadvantage? I mean its 50 pts right? Nothing costs more than C:SM and is better, its just like space wolves except BA are basically the exact same.. but better

The only thing BA doesnt have is Vulkan and its sad how much of a crutch that guy has become..

Kirasu wrote:Nothing costs more than C:SM and is better, its just like space wolves except BA are basically the exact same.. but better

You can have 3 C:SM rhinos for 2 Blood Angel Rhinos is that what you mean by the same.

Well yes, you pay 15 pts for a fast vehicle.. I was more talking about the troops. Also its *not* 3 for 2.. Its more like "Tactical squads suck but hey! BA get assault squads as troops.. so Ill play them like tacticals. Now my rhinos cost 15 points")

So that lovely 3 for 2 argument turns into 1:2 .. Ive been playing BA since I was a kid and have a huge collection, so I got no problems having a new book.. Id just like someone to point out ACTUAL disadvantages..

Using tactical squads and paying 50 pts for their rhinos is a disadvantage yeah.. thats why you dont take them

Does anyone think three Furiosos with meltaguns and magna-grapples (140p each) could work without Drop Pods or Storm Ravens? Consider for example a 1750p list with Librarian, 6 Predators, 3 Razorbacks + AM squads (meltaguns), and 3 running Furiosos. The Dreadnoughts would run for the first turn or two, taking cover saves behind the Rhino-chassis tanks but then they'd be shooting and charging left and right. The list would be very saturated with AV13 (12 vehicles total of which 9 are AV13) and they take care of many close combat problems while also having an anti-tank threat range of 18" each turn.

I've been playtesting the Storm Raven and really like the ability to transport a Dreadnought. An almost 23" assault range (12" move, 2" deployment, 3" base, 6" charge) means that unless my transport goes down it gets where I want it. I've also been surprised by the Storm Ravens survivability. The rear armor 12 is super huge and so is the anti-melta armor. I think I like the Storm Ravens because they let me set the tempo of the game. But fast flame storms are just plain awesome! They eat entire dismounted marine squads like candy

Kirasu wrote:Well yes, you pay 15 pts for a fast vehicle.. I was more talking about the troops. Also its *not* 3 for 2.. Its more like "Tactical squads suck but hey! BA get assault squads as troops.. so Ill play them like tacticals. Now my rhinos cost 15 points")

So that lovely 3 for 2 argument turns into 1:2 .. Ive been playing BA since I was a kid and have a huge collection, so I got no problems having a new book.. Id just like someone to point out ACTUAL disadvantages..

Using tactical squads and paying 50 pts for their rhinos is a disadvantage yeah.. thats why you dont take them

When you compare our assault marines to c:sm assault marine discount you are still paying more right? You cant compare tact squad to assault marine you have to compare c:sm assault marine to blood angel assault marine if you want to compare prices. I am fighting a losing battle here the interwebz think that tactical squads suck, why do I even try?

I'm not afraid of the new Blood Angels Codex......Sounds like Dark Eldar on Crack, thats all. The tactics looks and sounds that same.

played a small test game against BA today, guy was testing out everything but his list had

One of the dreads with blood tallons.
A librarian with the lance and might
Three Baal Preds
Three Assault-cannon razorbacks.(one assault squad, two flamer/LC tactical squads)
And one of those FNP-FC priest dudes.

And I was playing some orks

Highlights of the battle:
Assalut cannons stopped my wagon rush
(he scouted his preds INTO ASSAULT RANGE )
Libby missed with his lance TWICE.
I assaulted that dread with meganobz thinking "He's got 3 attacks, its not a DCCW, 3 MANz will live, and shred the thing with the 12 PK attacks" but no, it ate the whole squad, the warboss, and the big-mek!
Failed to stop the fast razors, ate flamethrowers.

Short: The blood lance is not that cool guys, all the fast tanks and crazy dreads are!

CKO wrote:[/quote="When you compare our assault marines to c:sm assault marine discount you are still paying more right? You cant compare tact squad to assault marine you have to compare c:sm assault marine to blood angel assault marine if you want to compare prices. I am fighting a losing battle here the interwebz think that tactical squads suck, why do I even try?"

Why do I have to compare assault squads to assault squads? Im comparing SCORING units.. you know the units that matter. C:SM assault squads are never ever used (at least Ive never seen one and we have a lot of marine players), why? Because they arent very good due to being fast attack.

Yet BA assault squads score, so yes I will compare them to tactical marines since the ONLY REASON to ever use tactical marines is to score. It's even been stated in this thread that people just want to sit them on objectives. Thus if the primary driving force behind the selection of a unit is to score then it is fair to compare other scoring units

10 assault marines have 1 more special weapon and a lot more assault potential. 250 points gets you 2 flamers, a power fist and a rhino where as a tactical marine squad is 245 for 1 flamer, a missile launcher, power fist and a rhino. Knowing the strength of the BA is using furious charge its rather silly to sit back and fire with boltguns instead of BP + charge.. Again, what is the purpose of the tactical squad? Im sorry you think the interwebs is against it, but tactical marines have been awful for a decade

The only reason people took them is because they have to.. If chaos space marines only had 1 troop option theyd take more chaos marine squads too! but instead they take plague marines and berserkers more often..

Therion wrote:Does anyone think three Furiosos with meltaguns and magna-grapples (140p each) could work without Drop Pods or Storm Ravens? Consider for example a 1750p list with Librarian, 6 Predators, 3 Razorbacks + AM squads (meltaguns), and 3 running Furiosos. The Dreadnoughts would run for the first turn or two, taking cover saves behind the Rhino-chassis tanks but then they'd be shooting and charging left and right. The list would be very saturated with AV13 (12 vehicles total of which 9 are AV13) and they take care of many close combat problems while also having an anti-tank threat range of 18" each turn.

Yes, Ive been testing furiosos out and they are amazing. In that scenario you could walk them behind as counter assault. Blood talons are pretty over the top for being free. Who needs S10 when youre S6 lightning claws that give extra WS6 attacks? one furioso can basically kill entire squads now before they even attack