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bhsman wrote:
Your dogged defense of this release against ANY criticism is pretty striking, though. I think you need to understand that Kan and I aren't the ones to usually get upset at every little thing GW does; maybe we have valid claims for criticism?

But hey, just call us haters. Doggies gonna dog.

I said I didn't like the Mortarion heart carving and thought it was silly.

I'm sure you have valid claims; I just think that a lot of the criticism is due to people not reading actually reading the book / seeing the models in person and just reacting to rumors, speculation and one picture they saw on the internet. Is it so hard to wait until we've actually seen the thing before making a decision?

I also don't understand Kan's, and other folks, unquenchable hate for the DK. I get that you might not like it, or think it could have been better, but the constant OMG DK IS WORSE THAN ANYTHING EVER IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND AND POTENTIALLY BEFORE and I WANT TO FACE HUMP MATT WARD FOR WHAT HE DID TO US is kinda old. You can not like stuff without it being a huge deal.

In general, I am a lot slower to anger or flip out over stuff than a lot of people I know. Maybe I'm just getting old.


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And do you guys count as Doggies for being Dogged in your Offense?

We could just change the Haters meme to Doggies. Get a cut dog pic. It'll be very simple.

The Mortarion thing was dumb but allowable, but if the dude's so pissed why doesn't he just kill Draigo in the Warp? And it's the Warp, not the Eye of Terror; even the Emperor wouldn't mess with that junk without building his own Webway portal. The man's deeds outstrip that of the Primarchs and Ward's justification makes the Rise of the Tau look like compelling writing by comparison.

And the Dreadnought is shoehorned in. There's no good justification for it.

The Eye of Terror is just an access to the Warp / Realms of Chaos. Draigo isn't the first guy hanging out in there. There's kind of a history of folks wandering in and hanging out for a while and then coming back out.

13th Company makes a living doing it.

My standing on Draigo is that he is a tragic hero, not a mary sue. He basically fell into his position by being in the right place at the right time. Keep in mind that he just struck the killing blow on the DP the first time and did not defeat it in single combat. With the exception of the mortarion thing (which I don't like and think maybe they keep Morts heart in the basement and D just snuck down and carved a name in it when the other GMs weren't looking), he didn't do anything cool as GM.

Then he decides that to defeat the DP he has to go off alone and starts this chain of hubris/self-sacrifice that leads to his expulsion to the warp.

There he gets to do all this cool stuff, but ultimately it is worthless. It is like the Chaos Gods are playing with him by allowing him to think he is all that, but as soon as he turns around reverting all the changes.

He is a metaphor for everything that the Grey Knights are, faithful, strong of arm and powerful, but ultimately doomed to be overwhelmed by the infinity of Chaos.


As for the DK thing, I think it makes sense to have exo-suits to fight big Daemons. You guys think it is silly. We agree to disagree.

The Warp =/= the Eye of Terror. The Warp is where literal thoughts become energy, there's no way to keep your body composition together, etc. Ward didn't just write up an implausible (for 40k) story about Draigo, he also re-wrote entire fluff about the nature of the Warp (NOT the Eye of Terror or Maelstrom). But hey, feel free to convince yourself otherwise.

Grey Knights exist to fight big daemons and it makes for a compelling narrative. Dreadknights shat all over that with its introduction.

Kanluwen wrote:As a heads-up, a fair number of Inquisitor models went up today.

Including:

So much love for this model...

pretre wrote:

As for the DK thing, I think it makes sense to have exo-suits to fight big Daemons. You guys think it is silly. We agree to disagree.

How was it they fought big Daemons before the Dreadknights?

I think it's silly because it feels, to me, like GW said, "We have an idea for a big model @ $53 a pop and we wanna sell it with the Grey Knights! Make it good, so it sells. And write up some fluff to go with it."

And Mat Ward crow-barred it into fluff. It all feels forced.

I love all the Inquisitor models. I'm using the one with the plasma pistol and power sword for my counts-as Coteaz. That greatcoat is too awesome to say no to.

I loved the storm raven, I love this and I love grey knights.

So haters can hate all ya want, the dreadknight is still gonna happen. XD

bhsman wrote:
Grey Knights exist to fight big daemons and it makes for a compelling narrative. Dreadknights shat all over that with its introduction.

I see your point on this and kinda agree.

Kinda makes the first war of Armageddon fluff seem a bit stupid really.

Unless they actually re write it and include a bunch of Dreadknights or there was an even bigger Daemon incursion where the Dreadknights were required. You can't get much bigger than a full Khornate assault with a Daemon Primarch on one of the most important planets though.

pretre wrote:The Eye of Terror is just an access to the Warp / Realms of Chaos. Draigo isn't the first guy hanging out in there. There's kind of a history of folks wandering in and hanging out for a while and then coming back out.

Nnnnnnnoo... The Eye of Terror and the Maelstrom are unstable alternate realities where the material world and the immaterium (or Warp) actually coincide. That's why you can actually maintain physicality within the Eye or Maelstrom, and why whole planetary systems exist there.

It's still suffused with raw chaos, and anything unshielded becomes horribly mutated, but you still get to exist in the Material plane and have a body and walk on dirt (or blood, or goo) and such.

Technically, Draigo isn't in the Warp, he is in the 'Realms of Chaos'. As far as I have seen in the past, the Realm of Chaos is a somewhat stable 'island' in the sea that is the Immaterrium.

And I didn't write that the Eye was = the Warp, I wrote that it was access to. It is where the Warp bleeds into realspace (one spot at least) and creates something new.

Where did he rewrite the nature of the Warp?




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Pilau Rice wrote:

bhsman wrote:
Grey Knights exist to fight big daemons and it makes for a compelling narrative. Dreadknights shat all over that with its introduction.

I see your point on this and kinda agree.

Kinda makes the first war of Armageddon fluff seem a bit stupid really.

Unless they actually re write it and include a bunch of Dreadknights or there was an even bigger Daemon incursion where the Dreadknights were required. You can't get much bigger than a full Khornate assault with a Daemon Primarch on one of the most important planets though.

How about instead of sending 100 guys next time, we send 3 Dreadknights and a few battle brothers? The idea is that the GKs are spread thin in a universe filled with Daemonic incursions. Anything they can do to be more efficient and better combat Chaos, they will do.

So you're making stuff up that supports your argument?

The Warp isn't a location.

EDIT: Grey Knights were less spread thin before they were arbitrarily rewritten to only have one thousand by Ward.

bhsman wrote:So you're making stuff up that supports your argument?

The Warp isn't a location.

EDIT: Grey Knights were less spread thin before they were arbitrarily rewritten to only have one thousand by Ward.

The warp is most certainly a location.

The Warp is a psychic dimension parallel to real space. It is known by many names: Warpspace, the Immaterium, the Empyrean, the Ether, the Sea of Souls, and also as the Realm of Chaos.

And there have been multiple references in the past to 'stable' areas in the warp where the Chaos Gods and their minions live. It isn't just formless chaos. (See tons of Codex : Chaos Daemons)

When were the number of the GK ever published previously? Except for the SW and BT, who specifically mention their exception, I have always assumed that they followed the post heresy 1000.

Pilau Rice wrote:

bhsman wrote:
Grey Knights exist to fight big daemons and it makes for a compelling narrative. Dreadknights shat all over that with its introduction.

I see your point on this and kinda agree.

Kinda makes the first war of Armageddon fluff seem a bit stupid really.

Unless they actually re write it and include a bunch of Dreadknights or there was an even bigger Daemon incursion where the Dreadknights were required. You can't get much bigger than a full Khornate assault with a Daemon Primarch on one of the most important planets though.

Or they realized that it kinda sucks to lose so many terminators everytime gak hits the fan and decided to build something to avoid similar events in the future?

pretre wrote:
How about instead of sending 100 guys next time, we send 3 Dreadknights and a few battle brothers? The idea is that the GKs are spread thin in a universe filled with Daemonic incursions. Anything they can do to be more efficient and better combat Chaos, they will do.

So sending Dreadknights wouldnt've been a good idea

Maybe I missed your point ...

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Or they realized that it kinda sucks to lose so many terminators everytime gak hits the fan and decided to build something to avoid similar events in the future?

Yeah, but that would depend on when the Dreadknight was invented. If it was before Armageddon then fool them for not using them in the first place

I'm sorry, every time I look at this mini I have this urge to say: 'One Shall Stand, One Shall Fall.'

Does it turn into a stormraven?

I can feel my fandom withering just looking at it. Fortunately, no one around here is playing GK.

Pilau Rice wrote:

pretre wrote:
How about instead of sending 100 guys next time, we send 3 Dreadknights and a few battle brothers? The idea is that the GKs are spread thin in a universe filled with Daemonic incursions. Anything they can do to be more efficient and better combat Chaos, they will do.

So sending Dreadknights wouldnt've been a good idea

Maybe I missed your point ...

Instead of sending 100 guys, we send 3 DK and 20 guys. Conservation of effort. Applying more power through technology? A GK in a DK suit is worth more than 1 Terminator against Greater Daemons, is my contention.


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Picture of the Realms of Chaos from C: CD:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/4/48/Realm_of_Chaos.jpg

Looks like a place to me.

pretre wrote:
Instead of sending 100 guys, we send 3 DK and 20 guys. Conservation of effort. Applying more power through technology? A GK in a DK suit is worth more than 1 Terminator against Greater Daemons, is my contention.

I see, so you were saying what they should do if they re wrote Armageddon.

On the same page now

Pilau Rice wrote:

pretre wrote:
Instead of sending 100 guys, we send 3 DK and 20 guys. Conservation of effort. Applying more power through technology? A GK in a DK suit is worth more than 1 Terminator against Greater Daemons, is my contention.

I see, so you were saying what they should do if they re wrote Armageddon.

On the same page now

Nonononononono

They shouldn't rewrite Armageddon. If the GK run into a similar invasion in the future, they will be able to send a more efficient force.
Does the US wish it had F-16s, blackhawks and apaches in WWII? Heck yeah. Would we have won without those things? Sure. Would it have been a lot easier if we had those? Yeah, probably.

bhsman wrote:The Warp =/= the Eye of Terror. The Warp is where literal thoughts become energy, there's no way to keep your body composition together, etc. Ward didn't just write up an implausible (for 40k) story about Draigo, he also re-wrote entire fluff about the nature of the Warp (NOT the Eye of Terror or Maelstrom). But hey, feel free to convince yourself otherwise.

Grey Knights exist to fight big daemons and it makes for a compelling narrative. Dreadknights shat all over that with its introduction.

I coulda swore a certain Dark Elf Witch King survived a good long time in the warp...

Exactly, it isn't like people haven't survived in the warp for extended periods before.

pretre wrote:Nonononononono

They shouldn't rewrite Armageddon. If the GK run into a similar invasion in the future, they will be able to send a more efficient force.

Right, well I was talking about Armageddon and if they re wrote it. Ifs and buts

And if what you are saying here is true

pretre wrote:The idea is that the GKs are spread thin in a universe filled with Daemonic incursions. Anything they can do to be more efficient and better combat Chaos, they will do.

They obviously deemed Armageddon worthy of sending a whole company of Grey knights

pretre wrote:to be more efficient and better combat Chaos

pretre wrote:Does the US wish it had F-16s, blackhawks and apaches in WWII? Heck yeah. Would we have won without those things? Sure. Would it have been a lot easier if we had those? Yeah, probably.

Or just a Dread knight

1 Exosuit versus Nazi Germany? Woot, we win!

pretre wrote:1 Exosuit versus Nazi Germany? Woot, we win!

Yee haa!!!

There was an ork waagh that rampaged from the Cadian Gate into the warp. They didn't evaporate when they entered. They rampaged all over the place until the last few were killed by the Blood Prince, with the Warlord emasculating him as he went..

Nearly all spacecraft travel through the warp, and they stay solid just fine (most times ). The Warp is an alternate dimension, rather than a location, where physics takes on some very odd subclauses. Certain places in the warp are known locations, and are more stable than others.

Wandering it on your own forever without being killed or lost in time.. That's a bit more of a stretch...

Well, to be fair, he is lost in time. That's clearly stated in the fluff.

That actually makes it even more horrifying.

Now Draigo can rampage through the canon retroactively, like some sort of mad C.S. Goto-inspired Carmen Sandiego.

BE AMAZED as Kaldor Draigo halts the WAAAUGH!

BE STUNNED as Kaldor Draigo protects Terra!

BEHOLD as Kaldor Draigo saves Roboute Guilliman!

pretre wrote:

bhsman wrote:it's your schtick:...s.

Oooh, I have a shtick now....

I have a shctick too, I ushe it to beatsh people who like thish new dreadnightmare

Pilau Rice wrote:
Yeah, but that would depend on when the Dreadknight was invented.

According to the fluff, GK's won't reveal the secret as to the origins of the Dreadknight (convenient). Paraphrased: "Is it a from the Dark Age of Technology and the times since, or are its origins more alien? Either way, the Grey Knights aren't saying."

puma713 wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:
Yeah, but that would depend on when the Dreadknight was invented.

According to the fluff, GK's won't reveal the secret as to the origins of the Dreadknight (convenient). Paraphrased: "Is it a from the Dark Age of Technology and the times since, or are its origins more alien? Either way, the Grey Knights aren't saying."

Convenient indeed