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What about ranged attacks? Dosent calgar have some special storm bolter? What about Logan?

Calgar can also orbital strike Logan, can he do the same?

And at range, if Calgar let Logan come to him, he might get a bolter wound in. Combine all of this with an extra wound, and its only the UM haters that can vote for Logan

G00fySmiley wrote:

both hit on 4's

Wrong, Logan has the Wolf tooth necklace which allows him to always hit on a roll of 3+ while Calgar hits on 4+

Logan also has a 4+ invulnerable save while Calgar has the average termi invul save of 5+

plug that in and I do believe when it comes down to close combat, the fates are on the side of Logan

Calgar has an assault 2 ap2 gun with a 24" range. Kite for as long as possible, shooting the whole time... Logan has to just eat the wounds bringing the inevitable CC much farther to mr blues favor.

so, calgar has the edge in range, if he can keep the fight at a distance long enough, he may be able to edege it out. if the reverse is true, logan should win in a pure melee fight.

sounds like a nice tight match. however - the voting right now has grimnar by a large margin. maybe itll tighten up, but less then a day left for votes...

King Pariah wrote:

G00fySmiley wrote:

both hit on 4's

Wrong, Logan has the Wolf tooth necklace which allows him to always hit on a roll of 3+ while Calgar hits on 4+

Logan also has a 4+ invulnerable save while Calgar has the average termi invul save of 5+

plug that in and I do believe when it comes down to close combat, the fates are on the side of Logan

Actually, Calgar does have a 4+ invuln, from his Iron Halo. All Captains and Chapter Masters have that (or something better).
In terms of who is better, I vote Logan, because he's not a Smurf.

Looks like Calgar bites the dust in this one. Logans got his work cut out for him this round however.

in any case round 2 starts now. - Ghazskull vrs Vect... this should be a good un!

Wholly crap batman, these two are a fight against the clock...

As I see it, thanks to prophet of the whaaag! we know ghaz is going to get the charge off against Vect, and then Ghaz will share a 2+ invuln save for a full game turn of combat. Statistically speaking, during that game turn, Vect will fail one of his saves (And as Vect isn't eternal, it will only take one hit). With Ghaz having his 2+ invuln save during that time, I don't think vect can burn through all four wounds in time.

However, if for whatever reason Vect survives the rounds of "Prophet of the Whaaag!" then I think it's Vect's match. Like I said, race against the clock....

all vect has to do, is get the charge himself, and i think ghaz is done. with vect being fleet, that shouldnt be a problem per se, if vect is smart in his movment. if ghaz charges, vect still has ok odds to inflict some damage but that invun makes it harder... and of course if vect just fails a single save, hes done. so vect would almost HAVE to get the charge and suceed in the alpha strike.

DarthSpader wrote:all vect has to do, is get the charge himself, and i think ghaz is done. with vect being fleet, that shouldnt be a problem per se, if vect is smart in his movment. if ghaz charges, vect still has ok odds to inflict some damage but that invun makes it harder... and of course if vect just fails a single save, hes done. so vect would almost HAVE to get the charge and suceed in the alpha strike.

He would have to gain that alpha strike to even have a chance. Because once the Waaagh begins, Vect's chances are next to 0. And fleet may be a factor, but Ghaz has a pretty big gun that, if I recall, is a 24" range as well. So if they just spend the whole match dancing around one another like a bunch of elves waiting for the other get close enough to reliably fleet in (Remember, Ghaz's prophet of the waaagh gives him an automatic 6" run for fleet) then Ghaz will eventually knock that shield off. One on one, I don't think Vect has this one. Ghaz is too much of a power house in close combat, and Vect doesn't have the support to play keep away with the big guy.

sorry - that example kind of redundant. anyway, was talking with a bud, and we decided to run 10 matches of vect v ghaz, with each one getting 5 with the charge. the results are interesting. in the 5 that ghaz charged, he won 3 times. the 2 that vect won, took him 3 and 4 rounds respectivly. however, in the 5 that vect charged, vect won all 5. getting the "alpha strike" kill twice. to take 7 of 10 fights.

the main factor: vects rerolls on his attack dice, from prefered enemy, and hitting and wounding on 3s was a huge deal. plus, when ghaz had a 5++ he failed quite often and just got whittled down. the full results are below. another factor to consider, (wich we didnt, is ghaz is in mega armor. meaning he moves per DT rolls... that can and will slow him down, allowing vect more chances to charge)

Fight 1-5 ghaz charge 6-10 vect charge
(ghaz always strikes last, has 7 atk on charge, 5 normal. Vect has 6 atk on charge, 5 normal)
(ghaz always hits on 4+ wounds on 2+, vect hits on 3+ and wounds on 3+)
(ghaz has 2++ on charge, 5++ otherwise. Vect always has 2++ but 1 fail = dead due to ID)
(vect has pref enemy: reroll missed atk. Numbers after *** reroll results)

fight ONE: ghaz win- round 2
R1: vect attack: 6,5,3,2,2 ***2.2 = 3hit, 5.4,2 = 2 wounds. Ghaz saves – 4,4 = 0 taken
Ghaz attack: 6,5,5,5,4,3,3 = 5hit, 4,3,2,2,1 = 4 wounds, vect saves = 6,6,4,2, = 0 taken
R2: vect attack: 6,5,2,1,1 ** 6,3,3 = 5 hit, 6,3,3,2,1 = 3 wounds, ghaz saves = 6,1,1 = 2 taken
ghaz attack 6,6,4,3,2 = 3hit, 6,4,4 = 3 wounds vect saves = 5,1,1 = VECT DEAD

Fight TWO Ghaz win – round 1
R1:vect atk 5,4,2,1,1 **6,4,3 = 5hit, 6,3,3,3,1 = 4 wounds ghaz saves 6,6,4,3, = 0 taken
ghaz atk 6,6,5,4,3,1,1, = 4hit, 5,4,4,2 = 4 wounds vect saves6,3,1,1 = VECT DEAD

Fight THREE Vect win – round 4
R1: vect atk 5,2,2,1,1 **5,1,1,1 = 2hit 2,1 = 0 wound no saves needed
ghaz atk 5,4,3,3,2,2,2, =2hit 5,3 = 2 wounds vect saves 5,5, = 0 taken
R2: vect atk 6,3,3,2,2 **3,1 = 4hit, 5,3,1,1 =2 wounds, ghaz saves 6,3 = 1 taken
Ghaz atk 6,6,5,3,1 =3hit, 6,6,2 =3wounds vect saves 6,2,2 = 0 taken
R3 vect atk 6,4,3,1,1 **6,1 = 4 hit, 5,4,4,2 =3wounds ghaz saves 6,3,2 = 2 taken
ghaz atk 4,4,4,2,2=3 hit, 6,3,3 = 3 wound, vect saves 6,4,2, = 0 taken
R4: vect atk 6,6,5,3,1,**4 = 5hits, 6,3,2,2,1, = 2 wounds ghaz saves 6,3, =1 GHAZ DEAD

Fight FOUR Vect win – round 3
R1 vect atk 6.6.5.5.1.**6 =5hit, 6,5,5,3,1 =4 wound ghaz saves 6,5,4,3 = 0 taken
ghaz atk 6,5,5,5,4,4,2 = 6hit, 6,6,5,5,4,1, = 5 wound, vect saves 6,3,3,2,2 = 0 taken
R2: vect atk 5,4,4,4,2**1 =4hit, 6,5,2,2, = 2 wound, ghaz saves 5,3, = 1 taken
ghaz atk 6,5,5,4,2 = 4hit, 6,5,4,2 = 4 wound, vect saves 6,6,6,4 = 0 taken
R3 vect atk 5,5,4,3,3 =5 hit, 6,6,3,3,2 =4wound, ghaz saves 5,3,3,3 = 3 taken, GHAZ DEAD

Fight FIVE Ghaz win round 1
R1 vect atk 6,6,4,3,2,**4 = 5hit, 5,3,2,2,1 = 2 wounds, ghaz saves 2,1 = 1 taken
ghaz atk 6,5,5,4,3,1,1 = 4hit, 6,4,3,1, = 3 wound, vect saves 5,1,1, = 2 taken, VECT DEAD

Fight SIX Vect win round 2
R1 vect atk 5,5,4,4,2,1,**5,4 =6hit, 6,6,5,4,4,2 = 5 wound, ghaz saves 6,6,5,2,1 = 2 taken
ghaz atk 3,3,2,1,1, 0 hit, no wound rolls.
R2 vect atk5,5,2,2,1 **6,5,2 = 4hit, 6,5,5,5, = 4 wound, ghaz saves 5,5,3,1, = 2 taken GHAZ DEAD

Fight SEVEN Vect win round 2
R1 vect atk 6,4,3,2,2,1 **3,1,1 = 4hit, 6,3,2,1 = 2 wound, ghaz saves 2,2, = 2 taken
ghaz atk 5,4,3,2,1 = 2 hit, 2,1 = 1 wound vect saves 3 = 0 taken
R2 vect atk 6,4,3,1,1,**6,3 = 5 hit, 4,4,4,3,3 = 5 wound, ghaz saves 5,5,3,3,3 = 3 taken GHAZ DEAD

Fight EIGHT Vect win round 1 alpha strike!!
R1 vect atk 6,6,5,3,3,3, = 6hit, 6,6,4,3,3, =5wounds, ghaz saves 2,2,1,1,1, = 5 taken GHAZ DEAD

Fight NINE Vect wins, round 2
R1 vect atk 6,5,4,3,2,1 **6,1, = 5 hits, 6.4.4.2.1. = 3 wounds, ghaz saves 6.5.2. = 1 taken
ghaz atk 5,4,4,3,3, = 3hit, 5,4,3, vect saves 6,5,2, = 0 taken
R2 vect atk 5,5,4,4,4, = 5 hit, 4,4,3,3,3, = 5 wounds, ghaz saves 5,3,2,1,1, = 4 taken, GHAZ DEAD

Fight TEN Vect win round 1 alpha strike!!
R1 vect atk 6,6,6,5,3,1, **5 = 6hit, 6,5,5,3,2,1 = 4wounds, ghaz saves 4,4,2,2, = 4 taken, GHAZ DEAD

While interesting, I am curious if someone much more dedicated than me could run the actual math hammer on the fight. By the simulation, Vect has it. But, to me all I see is a string of luck. In my mind, going four rounds, taking a total of 7-12 saves between each of those rounds of combat... One of those should have failed. Though we've all seen the string of no 1s.

Another thing to take into account, which wasn't brought up in this sim, was can't prophet of the Waagh be used when in combat already? Or does he have to be disengaged to use it? If he can use it while engaged (And survives the first round of combat) than it might even things up slightly.


As of that sim though, it would indeed appear that Vect is the deadliest character of the two.

Amanax wrote:While interesting, I am curious if someone much more dedicated than me could run the actual math hammer on the fight. By the simulation, Vect has it. But, to me all I see is a string of luck. In my mind, going four rounds, taking a total of 7-12 saves between each of those rounds of combat... One of those should have failed. Though we've all seen the string of no 1s.

Another thing to take into account, which wasn't brought up in this sim, was can't prophet of the Waagh be used when in combat already? Or does he have to be disengaged to use it? If he can use it while engaged (And survives the first round of combat) than it might even things up slightly.


As of that sim though, it would indeed appear that Vect is the deadliest character of the two.

To get the chances of either winning would be pretty difficult...
Still, I'll do what I can Each chance is given to 4 DP next to the number of unsaved wounds it represents.
Vect with no charges:
0 = 0.0810
1 = 0.2645
2 = 0.3455
3 = 0.2256
4 = 0.0737
5 = 0.0096
Vect when he charged:
0 = 0.0490
1 = 0.1920
2 = 0.3135
3 = 0.2730
4 = 0.1337
5 = 0.0349
6 = 0.0038
Vect when Ghaz charged:
0 = 0.3328
1 = 0.4096
2 = 0.2016
3 = 0.0496
4 = 0.0061
5 = 0.0003

Ghaz when he charged:
0 = 0.9067
1+ = 0.0933
When he didn't charge:
0 = 0.9325
1+ = 0.0675

As you can see, that re-roll to hit and 2++ does a lot to help. However, Ghaz' wounds must also be factored in, although it looks from here that Vect has an advantage.

im pretty sure prophet of the wagghh, is something like " ghaz and his army count as rolling a 6" run, and when ghaz charges his armor saves becomes his invun save" or something simaler.

therefore he would have to wagghh and charge to get his 2++

the sim i posted factored in a ghaz wagghh charge, with his 2++ first turn. before i edited and changed it out, i did a little theroy bashing, and 'kind' of tried to show that on a 24x24" table, ghaz would essentially have to hang right at his board edge, and not advance at all untill after the 2nd turn, otherwise vect charges him. but even then, when ghaz charges he still only hits 50% of his attacks, 4-5 saves a round for vect is not really hard... where as vect really just has to survive the 1st round, then its hitting ghaz with attacks that reroll hits that hit on 3+, and wound on 3+, and require a 5++.... not likley. now, in 6th..... ghaz cleans up. (simply because i believe vect would default to an AP3 weapon)

but really, even with ghaz winng 3 of 5 on his charge...7 of 10 wins for vect is pretty significant, mind that was only 10 very quick matches.

That doesn't sound right, in regards to the Waaagh rule, but I could be completely wrong. I'll have to check when I get home from work. As it could make a large difference to if he could use it on the other persons turn, and if it would last two rounds of combat or just one on which he charges as you suggested.

~ Edited now that I'm home~

"Waaagh!" rules states that it can be activated during any of your shooting phases, except the first (No mention of restrictions such as being in close combat)

Ghaz's Prophet of the Waaagh! rule states "Ghazghkull's Waaaagh! can be summoned at any time, but only once per game, and not on the first turn. It replaces the army's usual Waaaagh! - This one is better. Ghazghkull's Waaaagh! lasts the remainder of that player turn and all the following player turn. During this period Ghazghkull's saving throw is invulnerable"


So, with this information, no, it doesn't matter who gets the charge so long as it isn't on the first turn. Ghaz could even activate it on Vect's assault phase if Vect declares that assault. A Also, yes, it would give him two full rounds of a 2+ Invuln save, just like vect. I say, with this information, as only one single hit from Ghazzy will kill vect, this fight is Ghaz's fight.

great discussion so far. polls opened...this should be a good one.

Ghazzy clearly wins this one. Vect won't be able to do enough wounds, to get through his WAAAGH! Save, before Ghazzy deals a single unsaved wound to Vect.

Sasori wrote:Ghazzy clearly wins this one. Vect won't be able to do enough wounds, to get through his WAAAGH! Save, before Ghazzy deals a single unsaved wound to Vect.

Agreed. That one failure of a 2+ Kills vect, whereas Vect has to slog through 4 wounds, and not to mention for 1 FULL turn (i.e., vect and Ghazzy's turn) Having to get past a 2++

Although Vect has magic orbs from shooting, IIRC they are AP 3, so Ghazzy's armour can easily take 1 hit per turn. In comparison, Ghazzy has a 36" range S5 AP5 Assault 3 Weapon, which can easily take off the Shadow field after several rounds..

ghaz hits on a 5+ tho...the odds of him hitting a ranged attack are pretty minimal. also keep in mind in CC ghaz hits on 4+ vrs vect hitting on 3+ and rerolling. not saying its the game... but.

personally i like both characters. they are both army favs, and ive used both on multiple occasions. but yea... that single unlucky dice ruins vects day for sure.

what army is vect in i'm trying to do the math but i can't find him >_<

Dark Eldar.

I side with Ghazghkull Thraka. No doubt Vect will land more hits, but in the two rounds where Ghazghkull has his 2++ there's a very decent chance Vect fails the one roll he needs to in order to get splatted. And while Ghaz' shooting isn't spectacular, it might just be enough to get rid of Vect's invulnerable save, meaning Vect will be royally hosed come close combat. All in all the odds favor Thraka.

dark eldar.. one of the 3 codexes i don't own >_<

well i doubt anything without eternal warrior and i am assumign below toughness 5 as people are saying he can be insta gibbed ccan take ghaz i'd need some stats and rules to do the math though

Is there no model for Vect, I'm trying to find him on GW but can't see him anywhere?

nope. no model. the only DE special characters out is lelith, urien, a generic haemy, archon and succubus.

but for some reason necrons got ALL their SC models...

DarthSpader wrote:nope. no model. the only DE special characters out is lelith, urien, a generic haemy, archon and succubus.

but for some reason necrons got ALL their SC models...

Hey now... you have Drazar too (Even if it is an ancient sculpt...)

was out catching batman trilogy in big screen (all 3 movies back to back to back - the new one is PURE WIN btw... ) so a little late closing the polls. in any case, Ghazzy takes this one with 68%.

Who are next up on the roster..?

from page 1:

Ghaz wins the first match of round 2, to advance to the semi finals
next up, we have the swarmlord vrs Kharn

discussion starts now, and polls open sunday noon EST, closing on tuesday.

(also, if you havent yet, check out he other page and submit nomination for the next "version" of the contest. located here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/461435.page#4553469 )

sorry about the fail "reply" to update next match, for future notice, all updates, next matches, and winners are posted and edited on the first post, page 1.

Swarmlord, hands down.

Sasori wrote:Swarmlord, hands down.

This.