Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The problem with Celestine, is she gets a chance to get back up every turn. So, if combat has infinite rounds to resolve, she wins because she will get back up eventually (If I recall correctly, you roll at the beginning of each of your turns, on a 4+ she gets back up).

She'll take the whole tournament by default >_<

thats not what i meant.

IE:
gameturn 1 - no one drops
gameturn 2 - no one drops
gameturn 3 celstine drops
start of gameturn 4 - celestine tests to come back: fail = she looses, if she passes > next turn and so on. if she ever fails to get back up at the first opurtunity, she is done. (sort of the same as RP.)

i realize thats sort of a "nerf" to her actual rules, and others but this is a DUEL. not a full on battle. plus - having infinite time to get back up sort of makes her (and others with simaler) inclusion a near auto win like you said.

I guess you could put a time limit on any match... that would allow her to use her rules to the fullest without becoming an auto-win.

Hmmm. That will make it a bit harder. If I recall, neither can get past each others armour, but it only takes one hit to kill celestine (She's not EW is she?)

Even with getting back up, one fail and she's down? I'd have to give it to Draigo

just treat her as having a special reanimation protocol. she gets her roll whatever that is, at the end of the phase she goes down, or start of turn etc, fail it - shes done. and she looses the fight. pass, and the fight goes on untill she does fail it.

DarthSpader wrote:she follows normal rules. so if she goes down, gets a chance to return, as often as needed. once that fails shes done. the same would apply to any other character with a chance to return to the fight. you dont win untill you win, and a win requires the other guy staying down.

DarthSpader wrote:thats not what i meant.

IE:
gameturn 1 - no one drops
gameturn 2 - no one drops
gameturn 3 celstine drops
start of gameturn 4 - celestine tests to come back: fail = she looses, if she passes > next turn and so on. if she ever fails to get back up at the first opurtunity, she is done. (sort of the same as RP.)

i realize thats sort of a "nerf" to her actual rules, and others but this is a DUEL. not a full on battle. plus - having infinite time to get back up sort of makes her (and others with simaler) inclusion a near auto win like you said.

DarthSpader wrote:just treat her as having a special reanimation protocol. she gets her roll whatever that is, at the end of the phase she goes down, or start of turn etc, fail it - shes done. and she looses the fight. pass, and the fight goes on untill she does fail it.

I have to express my concern over this "change" to St. Celestine's rules. It certainly does nerf her to a level where I don't even think it is worth having this fight. I admit I am biased, but this just arbitrarily alters one of her more important special rules for the character. I did not see any nerf applied to MSS or psychotropic grenades despite the imbalance those things can bring to a fight like this. With your change to St. Celestine's MI that I thoroughly disagree with, I am going to have to say that this is horribly one-sided in the favor of Draigo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Amanax wrote:Hmmm. That will make it a bit harder. If I recall, neither can get past each others armour, but it only takes one hit to kill celestine (She's not EW is she?)

Even with getting back up, one fail and she's down? I'd have to give it to Draigo

Actually, as this is still being fought with 5th rules, both are going to have to use their invulnerable saves 3++/4++ for Draigo/St. Celestine respectively. St. Celestine does not have EW either.

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:

Amanax wrote:Hmmm. That will make it a bit harder. If I recall, neither can get past each others armour, but it only takes one hit to kill celestine (She's not EW is she?)

Even with getting back up, one fail and she's down? I'd have to give it to Draigo

Actually, as this is still being fought with 5th rules, both are going to have to use their invulnerable saves 3++/4++ for Draigo/St. Celestine respectively. St. Celestine does not have EW either.

You're absolutely right. Can't believe I forgot that...

Yeah, I have to agree with Evil Lamp. With the changes to Celestine's ressurection, she doesn't stand a chance. Just give it to Draigo and move on.

how exactly does her rule work? she tests at the start of each turn to come back into the game?

the problems with that in a 1v1 duel i can see are:

if she goes down, how long exactly are we giving her to "get back up?" if she has an infinite number of tries, such as fail, ok try again next turn, fail, ok try again next turn.... it can just get ridiculus. since we dont really have a system in place to handle ties, it has to be done once someone hits the deck. simaler to wrestling, or boxing i guess. character goes, down 10 count....then they are out. if we just stood around and waited all night - boxing matches could last days.

i do not have a witch hunter codex, and our store no longer has them in stock, so i can not get ahold of the exact rule wording. i realize its against dakka rules to post the exact rule, but perhaps a "paraphraze" of the rule in question?

the biggest thing i want to avoid is apotential "infinite match" where the combatants just keep getting up unlimited times, with no chance of failure. hence why, i believe it should be a 1 and done scenario. if she fails the check, she stays down past the 10 count and is considered out. or suffers a technical loss. that said, i also dont want to super nerf anyone either. - willing to discuss this further.

(hooray! discussion time actually pays off here!)

I think it's quite fair to treat her similar to necrons RP. If she fails to get up, the match is called. If she gets up and gets knocked back down she still can pop up but as before, she gets one chance at it. Otherwise this'll be potentially endless.

DarthSpader wrote:how exactly does her rule work? she tests at the start of each turn to come back into the game?

the problems with that in a 1v1 duel i can see are:

if she goes down, how long exactly are we giving her to "get back up?" if she has an infinite number of tries, such as fail, ok try again next turn, fail, ok try again next turn.... it can just get ridiculus. since we dont really have a system in place to handle ties, it has to be done once someone hits the deck. simaler to wrestling, or boxing i guess. character goes, down 10 count....then they are out. if we just stood around and waited all night - boxing matches could last days.

i do not have a witch hunter codex, and our store no longer has them in stock, so i can not get ahold of the exact rule wording. i realize its against dakka rules to post the exact rule, but perhaps a "paraphraze" of the rule in question?

the biggest thing i want to avoid is apotential "infinite match" where the combatants just keep getting up unlimited times, with no chance of failure. hence why, i believe it should be a 1 and done scenario. if she fails the check, she stays down past the 10 count and is considered out. or suffers a technical loss. that said, i also dont want to super nerf anyone either. - willing to discuss this further.

(hooray! discussion time actually pays off here!)

SoB WD Codex wrote:Miraculous Intervention: Every time Celestine is removed as a casualty, place a counter to mark the spot where she 'died'. Roll a D6 at the start of each of you subsequent turns. If the result is..., place her within...of the counter with D3 wounds restored...Celestine can act normally in a turn in which she 'resurrects'...

Parts that are irrelevant or would give unnecessary rules away left out. I agree it is an issue. By the way, C:WH isn't the valid codex for SoB anymore, the WD codex SoB from Aug '11 and Sep '11 replaced it. I've thought of a possible compromise and one that would work within 5th. Limit combat to 7 game turns/14 possible Assault phases for the purposes of determining a winner since it would not be possible for St. Celestine to get up more than 7 times during the course of a normal game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

King Pariah wrote: I think it's quite fair to treat her similar to necrons RP. If she fails to get up, the match is called. If she gets up and gets knocked back down she still can pop up but as before, she gets one chance at it. Otherwise this'll be potentially endless.

Except Necron's RP/EL specifically only works on a pass/fail basis. St. Celestine's MI is quite different in that she can still get back up after a failure with a successful pass. I agree that it would be stupidly pointless as no character could "lose" with such ability. I have suggested a compromise.

Edit to further clarify: I don't think that St. Celestine should get 7 chances to come back, but rather limit the match to 7 game turns. So if Draigo goes first and "kills" her on game turn 1, she could come back bottom of turn 1 all the way up to bottom of 7. If, however, Draigo kills her turn 7 and she stays down, the Saint is SOL. See if that makes more sense.

the problem with limiting the match to 7 game turns, is while its more realistic to actual games (good) it limits the fight between 2 guys who just keep beating and not hurting each other in a full on slugfest. (wich albeit doesnt happen in normal games anyway...)

but mainly, what happens if she gets knocked down on turn 1? we wait 6 turns for her to come back? what if shes still up at the end of 7? draw? continue? what if we continue and she drops on 8? does she keep testing?

i realize its a bit of a nerf - but i think if she takes a roll and fails thats it. same for sanguinor, and any necrons, or anything else. the contest is about who is deadliest, not who can take the deadliest beating... we want quick, bloody and decisive fights, showcasing the pure offensive power. celestine has some of that, but her ill be back fun is more defensive, and once shes down, she should be down on a failed check.... but im still willing to discuss the matter and listen to reason

It is always nice to see reason in discussions. You bring up good points that I simply don't have good answers for. This is ultimately your thread and "contest". I think you put it best earlier that she would "suffer a technical loss" as I can't think of another way to address this. Perhaps better men than I can.

I don't like the comparison to Necrons, etc. because her rule is fundamentally different than the others and is a big part of her "balance" both internally and externally. Being only T3 and no EW really is balanced with her MI in mind. Almost all other characters with a similar ability either have T4, EW, or better saves, and in some cases all three. This is balanced in that 1. they are harder to knock down in the first place and 2. they don't get to come back after a failure.

With that said, I'm sticking with my original statement that the change to St. Celestine's rule for this gives the fight hands down to Draigo with a "technical loss" for her.

well i'd agree she could get up if there was an army around her... in this case she is the only model on the 1v1 so by default if she gets wiped out and can't get back up it is over as the game would be over by wipe out

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:I've thought of a possible compromise and one that would work within 5th. Limit combat to 7 game turns/14 possible Assault phases for the purposes of determining a winner since it would not be possible for St. Celestine to get up more than 7 times during the course of a normal game.

I think that this, in principle, is the most sensible way to deal with this issue.
And if she still stands at the end of the 7th turn, she simply loses the ability to roll for resurrection and stays down if she gets slain (again).

so turns 1-7 she tests as normal, after that shes one and done.... that could work i suppose.

that said, its also a precedent for other characters with simaler rules that allow getting up and so forth. i just dont like the idea of a character sitting on his arse while the one he just knocked down takes her time getting her wits back. whats he doing? showboating to the crowd? polishing weapons? investigating the leftmost region of his right nostril with his left thumb?

ah well. a 7 turn limit would make the match a touch more interesting.

with that in mind - i do believe she cant move or charge when she comes back, so that would draigo simply more opurtunities to shoot and charge her.


also, with that in mind: polls now opened on this one.

DarthSpader wrote:so turns 1-7 she tests as normal, after that shes one and done.... that could work i suppose.

that said, its also a precedent for other characters with simaler rules that allow getting up and so forth. i just dont like the idea of a character sitting on his arse while the one he just knocked down takes her time getting her wits back. whats he doing? showboating to the crowd? polishing weapons? investigating the leftmost region of his right nostril with his left thumb?

ah well. a 7 turn limit would make the match a touch more interesting.

with that in mind - i do believe she cant move or charge when she comes back, so that would draigo simply more opurtunities to shoot and charge her.


also, with that in mind: polls now opened on this one.

SoB WD Codex wrote:Miraculous Intervention: Every time Celestine is removed as a casualty, place a counter to mark the spot where she 'died'. Roll a D6 at the start of each of you subsequent turns. If the result is..., place her within...of the counter with D3 wounds restored...Celestine can act normally in a turn in which she 'resurrects'...

She can act as normal when she resurrects so she can assault etcetera on that turn FYI.

DarthSpader wrote:i just dont like the idea of a character sitting on his arse while the one he just knocked down takes her time getting her wits back. whats he doing? showboating to the crowd? polishing weapons? investigating the leftmost region of his right nostril with his left thumb?

A valid point, though there are many possible explanations. When she's already dead, you can't "kill her more". The opponent might simply turn away and look for other enemies to slay or leave the field of battle, unknowing that his foe isn't yet done for (maybe). Which also explains how he might get surprised (assaulted) by her.
Actually, I think that's a fairly common cliché in various movies - the antagonist turning around to leave as the hero struggles to get back up and confront his arch nemesis once more, etc. Usually accompanied by some cliché phrase like "not ... so fast" or "where do you think you're going?" or "did you really think you won already?"

Just a suggestion, though.

Personally, I won't vote as I'm biased in that my personal preference clashes with my cynism regarding Draigo, but I'll check the results.

I think the best way for this to go is a time limit. If she hasn't killed Draigo by the end but she is still kicking it's Draigo's win. If he is down Celestine's wins. If she is down and the time runs out its Draigo's win. Simply put she has to win by KO. And he has to win by survival.

i like the idea of the 7 round thing. if shes down and out on or past 7th round, shes SOL. if she manages to drop draigo during that time, or at any point while shes up, then awsome and she gets the win.,.. as in order to win we have to one guy go down and STAY down.

question i suppose.... couldnt draigo just "double tap" her? she goes down.... he unloads his storm bolter at her face. - or takes her back to his little cave in the warp somewhere to um... discuss the many ways they can serve the emprah by braiding each others hair...

im opening a second thread to pick our next contest. it will start off with a nomination style (like how we determined our SC combatants

followed by a single vote off for the next contest. this will remain as the main contest thread, and will also be the one that "runs" the next version, but ill put whats actually fighting to the popular vote of the masses.

Draigo wins his match.

next up Calgar vrs Logan Grimnar.

no Drazhar?

he wasent nominated by anyone

DarthSpader wrote:Draigo wins his match.

next up Calgar vrs Logan Grimnar.

That's another tough one. By 5th edition rules though, I would say logan has this. If I remembering their wargear correctly, Logan will win out by initiative, as they both ignore each others armour, and both have the same invuln saves. Calgar does have weight of attacks in his favor, but I don't think it's enough to offset Logan swinging at his normal initiative.

what about EW and such? if grimnar strikes first, calgar could just default to his fists and ID logan (providing he survives logans assault) calgar dosent really have to use his sword here..could go powerfists. also how strong is logan? is he default marine str of 4 or does he have a buff? im assuming both are T4 as well.

I believe Logan is standard S4 T4, but he wields that frost axe which gives him +1 strength, and he can two hand it as a power fist.

I also though Logan had the saga that made him eternal warrior. Am I remembering incorrectly? It has been awhile since I've gone up against either.

polls opened for the final battle of round 1.

both are EW, l

ogan with ws 6 3 wounds and 5 attacks by 5th rules no need for powerfist mode better to use power weapon but can coutn as power fist or attack at I5 4+ inv save toughness 4 but can be str 5 at i 5 or str 8 at i 1 he may also take preferred enemy and once er battle gain +1 attack

calgar ws 6 4 attacksbase but 2 fists so 5 attacks 4 wounds 4+ inv save titanic might is basically preferred enemy he also has a power sword singular so may be str 4 with 4 attacks

calgar smartly chooses paired power fists.as he doean't want to wound on 4's

both hit on 4's

not factoring in either charging.

logan attacks
rouns 1
6 attacks turn 1 using his power 3 hit with rerolls 4.5 hits
if using sword wounding on 3's 3 wounds 4+ inv 1.5 wounds
if fist wound on 2's 3.75 wounds 4+ inv 1.85 wounds

subsiquent rounds
5 attacks with rerolls 3.75 hits
if sword 2.5 wounds 4+ inv 1.25 wounds
if fist 3.125 wouunds 4+ inv 1.5 wounds

calgar
5 attacks with rerolls 3.75 wounds due to rerolls
fists 3.125 wounds 4+ inv 1.5 wounds per turn

its close but i think calgar takes it with one wound left. the charge makes little difference

Except if I recall correctly, Calgar only re-rolls wounds, doesn't he? If so, then that would tip it back into Logan's favor. Someone care to check?

Yeah, only wounds.