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It is pretty troop light. I know the bikes will reserve and all, but 6 T4 bodies and 5 T3 bodies will be tough in objectives.

F it! I say use it and show us something unique

Also wheres game 7!!!! lol

Smitty0305 wrote:Possible Army List for WargamesCon - DeathStarDar

Would you guys enjoy watching me play this list? Do you think it has any major flaws? Do you think it can win?

Spoiler:

Karandras

Farseer, warding, fortune, Bike
7x Warlocks, 7x Bikes, Embolden Enhance

6x Scorps, Exarch with PF, Serpent, Cannon

5x Dragons, Serpent Cannon
5x Dragons, Serpent Cannon

5 DAVU, Serpent, Scatter
3x Jetbikes, Cannon
3x Jetbikes, Cannon

Wraithlord, EML Scatter
Wraithlord, EML Scatter
Wraithlord, EML Scatter

Would be an interesting list but your Wraithlords would necessarily be hugging your jetcouncil... unless that is your intention.

- Seercouncil is autoloss vs GK StormRavens, hindered vs psy defense
- Karandras and pals, fun if your opponent underestimates
- 3 troops 2 of which are super uber squishie
- Wraithlords with a poor loadout and no wraithsight protection

Yes sir, it would do poorly barring great rolls or poor opponents.

BlueDagger wrote:- Seercouncil is autoloss vs GK StormRavens, hindered vs psy defense
- Karandras and pals, fun if your opponent underestimates
- 3 troops 2 of which are super uber squishie
- Wraithlords with a poor loadout and no wraithsight protection

Yes sir, it would do poorly barring great rolls or poor opponents.

Im not saying its a perfect list, it isnt. All of those are obvious and very big problems with the list.

you then need to look at the advantages. 3 Deathstar units, a decent amount of shooting, and a hell of alot of close combat.

How else do you load out a wraithlord?

The final game vs Space Wolves only has pregame and deployment, did you accidentely delete the rest or is it still coming?

I think if you read the first part, he's waiting for people's feedback as to who they think wins...I'm calling this game in favor of the Eldar personally.

No Thunderwolves and only 2 packs of longfangs = Eldar win.

Don't get me wrong Smitty, that list will do good, but it's based on the matchup. If you get dealt the wrong cards there are hard counters to those units.

Wriathlord loadouts should be:
EML + BL = Antitank Lord
Wraithsword Only = Cheap anti infantry lord
Dual Flamers always.

Scatters and Cannons aren't great for Wraithlord because it bumps up their cost and doesn't have a great return. If it's worth shooting a Scatter laster at then it's better off run toward to flamer/Assault with a 100pr MC.

EML or BL + Scatter Laser/S Cannon = a mix of the two role will give the false premise of flexability but in reality you are just losing focus on what the wraithlord is supposed to be shooting at. In your load out the EML won't be great vs infantry and overkill vs AV10. While the scatter laser will be crap vs AV 12-13

BlueDagger wrote:No Thunderwolves and only 2 packs of longfangs = Eldar win.

Don't get me wrong Smitty, that list will do good, but it's based on the matchup. If you get dealt the wrong cards there are hard counters to those units.

Wriathlord loadouts should be:
EML + BL = Antitank Lord
Wraithsword Only = Cheap anti infantry lord
Dual Flamers always.

Scatters and Cannons aren't great for Wraithlord because it bumps up their cost and doesn't have a great return. If it's worth shooting a Scatter laster at then it's better off run toward to flamer/Assault with a 100pr MC.

EML or BL + Scatter Laser/S Cannon = a mix of the two role will give the false premise of flexability but in reality you are just losing focus on what the wraithlord is supposed to be shooting at. In your load out the EML won't be great vs infantry and overkill vs AV10. While the scatter laser will be crap vs AV 12-13

The only hard hard counter is Dark Eldar where I probably get tabled. After that I dont see any lists that will give me a huge problem.

So Scatter laser Wraithsword?

I hate bright lances so much.

I've had some success running my wraithlords with scatter/shuriken cannon load-outs. The range mismatch can be a bit tricky, but 7x bs 4 str 6 shots at 24" isn't too shabby (especially since the shuricannon costs the same as the wraithsword).

Awesome batreps! I loved your Eldrad tarpit move against the SoB - the perfect counter for Celestine's ridiculousness.

hilleraj wrote:I've had some success running my wraithlords with scatter/shuriken cannon load-outs. The range mismatch can be a bit tricky, but 7x bs 4 str 6 shots at 24" isn't too shabby (especially since the shuricannon costs the same as the wraithsword).

Awesome batreps! I loved your Eldrad tarpit move against the SoB - the perfect counter for Celestine's ridiculousness.

Glad you enjoyed the Eldrad tarpit lol.

T8 is moderatly overpowered. The released DE codex lowered it to T7. To my understanding the Wraithlord is the highest toughness model in the game, and t4 cant even hurt it. Alot of armies I feel will get tarpitted really easily against it, not only that, but lascannons and poisoned weapons are like the only way to kill it.

I personally like EML/Scatter because its a great amount of shooting, but hey I guess everyone likes their lords loaded out differently.

There are other... quite effective ways of dropping a wraithlord... a BA stormraven comes to mind... the other thing to consider is things like GK psycannons will negate your save 50% of the time on a wound.

But thats all beside the point... the real problem with Wraithlords is that a good opponent won't care if they get stuck in with a wraithlord because even though they will loose combat its at a terribly low value and so will be stuck in for a couple of rounds.

If I'm going to spend 100+ points on a slot I want it to be able to drop something in kind... its one of the reasons that War Walkers are as strong as they are... they tend to kill what they shoot at.

If you are doing an S Cannon/Scatter wraithlord, you may as well save the points on the scatter laser and Move + Run to get into flamer range. Dual flamers will typically do way more devastation then SC+SL plus it forces you opponent to deal with the Wraithlord.

Wraithlords are actually not too terribly difficult to get rid of. DE punk them hard, GK psycannons wreck them, and any unit with a powerfist will likely take them down. The issue isn't their toughness, it's the fact taht when they are in CC you have 2 attacks. Without a wraith sword you'll be lucky to kill 1 dude per turn while a powerfist swings back at you every turn.

SL + Wraithlord is a waste as well because you are giving up the capability of running D6 every turn to get in flamer/assault range/intimidation, to fire 4 Scatter laser shots. If you take guns, take EML + BL, 2 S8 BS4 shots = a gun platform that reliably shoots turn after turn from your backfield.

Counters to that list have already been mention. DE, certain GK, another eldar player would all wreck your day depending on the player.

BlueDagger wrote:If you are doing an S Cannon/Scatter wraithlord, you may as well save the points on the scatter laser and Move + Run to get into flamer range. Dual flamers will typically do way more devastation then SC+SL plus it forces you opponent to deal with the Wraithlord.

Wraithlords are actually not too terribly difficult to get rid of. DE punk them hard, GK psycannons wreck them, and any unit with a powerfist will likely take them down. The issue isn't their toughness, it's the fact taht when they are in CC you have 2 attacks. Without a wraith sword you'll be lucky to kill 1 dude per turn while a powerfist swings back at you every turn.

SL + Wraithlord is a waste as well because you are giving up the capability of running D6 every turn to get in flamer/assault range/intimidation, to fire 4 Scatter laser shots. If you take guns, take EML + BL, 2 S8 BS4 shots = a gun platform that reliably shoots turn after turn from your backfield.

Counters to that list have already been mention. DE, certain GK, another eldar player would all wreck your day depending on the player.

I dont see how a Bright Lance is better than a scatter laser. Chanses are ill be shooting at Rhinos/marines, and a scatter laser is better at that.
WraithSword-Scatter Laser seems like a decent combination, although I dont mind being tarpitted in close combat. I also run my wraithlords together, so if I get all 3 into close combat Ill be able to win it.

Its also not about the wraithlords, but about the list in general. What part of the army do you shoot at? You either shoot at a 2+ phoenix lord thats in CC, a 3++ bike squad thats in CC, or wraithlords that are in CC. Its not about if the wraithlord is a good unit or not, its about if the units together are a good army or not.

Ive played the list a couple times and it does ok.

The only problem I have with Mech Eldar builds, is that they are fairly boring, and they dont do a whole lot of damage. With this build, I can aggressively attack my opponent. Even if I loose I dont really care, because Im able to attack instead of run around the board derping. A huge part of this battle report is to show the different shades of Eldar. I know if I play mech eldar I can win games, but Im curious with how many builds I can win games.

Does the list have disadvantages? yes. Does it have just as many advantages? yes.

Nicely done.

If you are really trying to do well at WGC I'd stick with a more mechanized build. The list has hard counters in GK and DE (both common armies) and will struggle in a 7 game P/S/T system like the one at WGC. I played my Mechdar at WGC last year and didn't yield a single primary objective, something to consider... (and that was with Eldrad only having 1 attack )

*scatches head* Yes, if you assault most standard units with 360points of wraithlord they will lose. They move 6" + D6, they won't catch most things if they are grouped together because no single unit should be stupid enough to get assaulted by 3 wraithlords...

Also keep in mind that your wraithlords will not be able to keep up with your seer council so you have a 17% chance x 3 that a wraithlord will be doing nothing for a turn.

On the whole list thing, I have already pointed out the flaws on the list as a whole. Your only real deathstar unit there is the seer council. Karandras and a unit of scorps I hardly see as a deathstar. Pop their transport and poof you have a slow as hell 3+ T3 unit of infantry. Karandras by himself is beef and can lay down hurt... however he is a T4 3Wo 2+ guy for 215pts! Serious glass cannon if there is anything that can ignore armor. Hell a single psycannon could smear him.

Completely bump rushing your opponent with all these units at the same time can work, but there is a pile of IFs involved. if you ask someone "how good will this do" the answer is as I've said, statistically there is a lot better and you could have some terrible matchups.

BlueDagger wrote:*scatches head* Yes, if you assault most standard units with 360points of wraithlord they will lose. They move 6" + D6, they won't catch most things if they are grouped together because no single unit should be stupid enough to get assaulted by 3 wraithlords...

Also keep in mind that your wraithlords will not be able to keep up with your seer council so you have a 17% chance x 3 that a wraithlord will be doing nothing for a turn.

On the whole list thing, I have already pointed out the flaws on the list as a whole. Your only real deathstar unit there is the seer council. Karandras and a unit of scorps I hardly see as a deathstar. Pop their transport and poof you have a slow as hell 3+ T3 unit of infantry. Karandras by himself is beef and can lay down hurt... however he is a T4 3Wo 2+ guy for 215pts! Serious glass cannon if there is anything that can ignore armor. Hell a single psycannon could smear him.

Completely bump rushing your opponent with all these units at the same time can work, but there is a pile of IFs involved. if you ask someone "how good will this do" the answer is as I've said, statistically there is a lot better and you could have some terrible matchups.

Post an eldar build that isnt wave serpent based that can do well in touranaments.

Smitty0305 wrote:

BlueDagger wrote:*scatches head* Yes, if you assault most standard units with 360points of wraithlord they will lose. They move 6" + D6, they won't catch most things if they are grouped together because no single unit should be stupid enough to get assaulted by 3 wraithlords...

Also keep in mind that your wraithlords will not be able to keep up with your seer council so you have a 17% chance x 3 that a wraithlord will be doing nothing for a turn.

On the whole list thing, I have already pointed out the flaws on the list as a whole. Your only real deathstar unit there is the seer council. Karandras and a unit of scorps I hardly see as a deathstar. Pop their transport and poof you have a slow as hell 3+ T3 unit of infantry. Karandras by himself is beef and can lay down hurt... however he is a T4 3Wo 2+ guy for 215pts! Serious glass cannon if there is anything that can ignore armor. Hell a single psycannon could smear him.

Completely bump rushing your opponent with all these units at the same time can work, but there is a pile of IFs involved. if you ask someone "how good will this do" the answer is as I've said, statistically there is a lot better and you could have some terrible matchups.

Post an eldar build that isnt wave serpent based that can do well in touranaments.

Reecius' Footdar?
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/06/40k-footdar-last-charge-of-blue-and.html

Smitty0305 wrote:

Post an eldar build that isnt wave serpent based that can do well in touranaments.

Thus lies the complaint of most Eldar players....

Aves wrote:

Smitty0305 wrote:

BlueDagger wrote:*scatches head* Yes, if you assault most standard units with 360points of wraithlord they will lose. They move 6" + D6, they won't catch most things if they are grouped together because no single unit should be stupid enough to get assaulted by 3 wraithlords...

Also keep in mind that your wraithlords will not be able to keep up with your seer council so you have a 17% chance x 3 that a wraithlord will be doing nothing for a turn.

On the whole list thing, I have already pointed out the flaws on the list as a whole. Your only real deathstar unit there is the seer council. Karandras and a unit of scorps I hardly see as a deathstar. Pop their transport and poof you have a slow as hell 3+ T3 unit of infantry. Karandras by himself is beef and can lay down hurt... however he is a T4 3Wo 2+ guy for 215pts! Serious glass cannon if there is anything that can ignore armor. Hell a single psycannon could smear him.

Completely bump rushing your opponent with all these units at the same time can work, but there is a pile of IFs involved. if you ask someone "how good will this do" the answer is as I've said, statistically there is a lot better and you could have some terrible matchups.

Post an eldar build that isnt wave serpent based that can do well in touranaments.

Reecius' Footdar?
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/06/40k-footdar-last-charge-of-blue-and.html

I wasnt being sarcastic I was asking a serious question on what builds he considers as good that arnt heavily mech based.

I wont be running footdar at WGC tho, dont enjoy the playstyle of it.

Right there with you Smitty...

However if I had the models (and the patience) I would be running a list similar to the one you are using now.

What I will be bringing is as follows:

Smitty0305 wrote:

Aves wrote:

Smitty0305 wrote:

BlueDagger wrote:*scatches head* Yes, if you assault most standard units with 360points of wraithlord they will lose. They move 6" + D6, they won't catch most things if they are grouped together because no single unit should be stupid enough to get assaulted by 3 wraithlords...

Also keep in mind that your wraithlords will not be able to keep up with your seer council so you have a 17% chance x 3 that a wraithlord will be doing nothing for a turn.

On the whole list thing, I have already pointed out the flaws on the list as a whole. Your only real deathstar unit there is the seer council. Karandras and a unit of scorps I hardly see as a deathstar. Pop their transport and poof you have a slow as hell 3+ T3 unit of infantry. Karandras by himself is beef and can lay down hurt... however he is a T4 3Wo 2+ guy for 215pts! Serious glass cannon if there is anything that can ignore armor. Hell a single psycannon could smear him.

Completely bump rushing your opponent with all these units at the same time can work, but there is a pile of IFs involved. if you ask someone "how good will this do" the answer is as I've said, statistically there is a lot better and you could have some terrible matchups.

Post an eldar build that isnt wave serpent based that can do well in touranaments.

Reecius' Footdar?
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/06/40k-footdar-last-charge-of-blue-and.html

I wasnt being sarcastic I was asking a serious question on what builds he considers as good that arnt heavily mech based.

I wont be running footdar at WGC tho, dont enjoy the playstyle of it.

Who said you were being sarcastic?

SaganGree wrote:Right there with you Smitty...

However if I had the models (and the patience) I would be running a list similar to the one you are using now.

What I will be bringing is as follows:

Spoiler:

Eldrad
Yriel
9 Warlocks
w/ 3 spears, 3 destructor, enhance, embolded
Wave Serpent
w/ TLSL and all the upgrades (had the points and no where to use em)

2x 5 FD w/ WS w/ TLBL, stones

2x 3 Jetbikes w/ cannon
2x 5 DA

2x Falcon w/ SL, HF, Stones
Night Spinner

are you going to wargamescon this weekend?

I like ur list, theres nothing bad about it. Decent close combat squad that is hard to whipe, 2 fire dragon squads, 4 troops. Solid list. The only problem I have with it is that it only has 6 tanks. At 2000 points its really easy to get up to 11 tanks, and imo 6 really isnt enough. The dragons will slag something yea, the close combat squad will hopefully kill something, and your spinner and falcons will sit back and shoot. I personally dont like Falcons, as BS3 makes them terrible, they dont kill a whole lot when I use them.

If your going to WGC say hi, and GL!

Smitty0305 wrote:

are you going to wargamescon this weekend?

I like ur list, theres nothing bad about it. Decent close combat squad that is hard to whipe, 2 fire dragon squads, 4 troops. Solid list. The only problem I have with it is that it only has 6 tanks. At 2000 points its really easy to get up to 11 tanks, and imo 6 really isnt enough. The dragons will slag something yea, the close combat squad will hopefully kill something, and your spinner and falcons will sit back and shoot. I personally dont like Falcons, as BS3 makes them terrible, they dont kill a whole lot when I use them.

If your going to WGC say hi, and GL!

Yeah I'll be there, I'll be the one with the Beil Tan style army... and I agree that I could optimize it a little more... I just don't have the models, example, I would drop the TLBL for TLSC and take another 3 bikes... I just take a long time to paint and I just didn't have time.

I'd like to state that while I fully respect Reecius and praise his accomplishments, that list is far from optimized and I bank the vast majority of it's success on his generalship and opponents underestimating the list.

I do not care for Footdar mainly on the premise that it is slow, requires a lot of bodies (slow plays), and is hosed if there is a lot of templates/cover denying blasts, barrage.

That being said this is what I would recommend for footdar (or a slight variant there of):

Avatar
Eldrad

2x 4 Fire Dragons + Firepike/Crackshot Exarch
6 Harlies w/ Kisses + Shadowseer

2x 10 Guardians w/ Scatter Laser + Conceal Warlock
2x 10 Guardians w/ Scatter Laser + Embolden Warlock
2x 10 Guardians w/ EML + Embolden Warlock

3x Wraithlord with EML + BL

So the biggest question vs reecius's list is why Guardians Vs DA. The biggest reason is range. Each unit is equipped with a Heavy Weapon and cost 10 points less per model. For that 10 points you lose 1 BS, WS, Armor save, and Init, however they are fodder anyhoo since Str 3 T 3 is garbage. This nets more fearless bodies with a longer range. The embolden is there as a cheap 5pt backup if the avatar goes down plus mean the units won't be torn down if it gets out of range of him. Finally the Guardian squads have a warlock witchblade each so if assaulted by an MC or a vehicle gets in range, you actually have something that they attacker needs to fear.

BlueDagger wrote:I'd like to state that while I fully respect Reecius and praise his accomplishments, that list is far from optimized and I bank the vast majority of it's success on his generalship and opponents underestimating the list.

I do not care for Footdar mainly on the premise that it is slow, requires a lot of bodies (slow plays), and is hosed if there is a lot of templates/cover denying blasts, barrage.

That being said this is what I would recommend for footdar (or a slight variant there of):

Avatar
Eldrad

2x 4 Fire Dragons + Firepike/Crackshot Exarch
6 Harlies w/ Kisses + Shadowseer

2x 10 Guardians w/ Scatter Laser + Conceal Warlock
2x 10 Guardians w/ Scatter Laser + Embolden Warlock
2x 10 Guardians w/ EML + Embolden Warlock

3x Wraithlord with EML + BL

So the biggest question vs reecius's list is why Guardians Vs DA. The biggest reason is range. Each unit is equipped with a Heavy Weapon and cost 10 points less per model. For that 10 points you lose 1 BS, WS, Armor save, and Init, however they are fodder anyhoo since Str 3 T 3 is garbage. This nets more fearless bodies with a longer range. The embolden is there as a cheap 5pt backup if the avatar goes down plus mean the units won't be torn down if it gets out of range of him. Finally the Guardian squads have a warlock witchblade each so if assaulted by an MC or a vehicle gets in range, you actually have something that they attacker needs to fear.

Is there a "bluedagger" unorthodox list that you enjoy or no?

I enjoy running my swooping hawks list, though the only thing it sees is FLGS tounaments or Tournaments that they can exploit missions with Sky Leap. 3 packs of hawks and a winged autauch + my wraithhawk conversion.

I actually think Dire Avengers with Defend and Shimmershield are a better choice than 3 squads of Guardians, but YMMV...

And when they get shot there is zero difference between the two except for a big point cost difference.