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U02dah4 wrote:
Your not trying to last the whole match just long enough

Uh... I've never won a tourney match on objectives without infantry at the end, have you?

 Ideasweasel wrote:
I love the dogs. It’s the first thing I’m looking at when making lists. The ability to make an opponent fail a charge is awesome

Yeah. Scout them out turn one, block the Gallant, Warptimed bombs, etc. Two boxes are just ugh so expensive...

Many but I have historically been more of an etc than itc style player and own multiple armies.

If you can score enough In the first three turns you can be tabled and your opponent can't catch up.

Of course having lots alive at the end is going to help and improve your tiebreaker but its not a requirement.

That list is trying to win consistently not win big

Its a spike vs timmy argument

Although personally I don't like the flyers inclusion or possibly cawls, but I can understand why they are there

In my opinion, any game plan that depends on scoring 6 (now 5) rounds worth of primary points in the first 3 rounds is not a 5-1 list. It doesn't even make sense because AdMech, as a gunline, tends to spend the first 3 rounds removing enemy threats with smart trades, then spends the last 3 rounds scoring points to catch up.

Anyhow, I watched the Richard Siegler game. First of all, I do not think this is a TAC list. He was specifically building an anti-Elites list that focuses on spamming mortal wounds and ignoring LOS. I am convinced that the Corpuscarii are useless without a Boat or Drill to move them around; Mark Perry pretty much wiped them in a lucky turn, which would not have happened if they were in a Drill. That said, Siegler's Fusilaves were BRUTAL. The double pivot makes it really easy to just zip them around to deal mortal wounds and hide out of range or behind LOS-blocking terrain (but remember that Obscuring does not apply to Flyers). The utility from the Tremor Shells was also important; he never shut down auras with them, but that is also a nice plus.

Finally, it's funny because his army looks exactly like mine. We both rock that sky blue color.

EDIT: So actually, I just made a new list that is my take on Siegler's list:


Might need Raiders though.

More I think about it, not really my style, but I think some of you guys might enjoy it.

Sigh, another edit. My friend pointed out that I do not need a Battalion anymore (8E habit). So I switched to a Spearhead. I can also fit in 3x Icarus Crawlers for a more well-rounded firebase.

That's a really scary list. Although you will lose cp with a spearhead as it has no command benefits like the patrol, bat and brigade. I also reckon Cawl will be a Supreme commander as mentioned by a playtestern on how to play admech in 9th on youtube

 0XFallen wrote:
That's a really scary list. Although you will lose cp with a spearhead as it has no command benefits like the patrol, bat and brigade. I also reckon Cawl will be a Supreme commander as mentioned by a playtestern on how to play admech in 9th on youtube

Right. Missed that about Spearheads. Anyhow, I did more tweaking to get a unit of Raiders in for skirmishing:


I am sure that we can win any gunline battle as long as we have 5 Ballistarii. But I actually don't think this list is the optimal list. Corpuscarii are only better than Hoplites when you use the Overcharge stratagem on them; without that, they are fragile and short-ranged. That CP is better spent on Dakkabots (which are super reliable mortal wounds) and Ballistarii. Which is ironic, since I went 4-2 with a Dakkabots and Ballistarii list awhile back; I feel like we're back to where we were after Castellans got nerfed. The only difference now is that taking Boats with infantry in them is probably smarter than taking a Krastsader. I think we need to really want to control the objectives.

So what about this list, which cuts the Crawlers for a Bomber and another Robot?


Not sure what to do with the last 30 points though.

We don't need more reasons to run Cawl. So in some ways, I don't want him to be SupCom. Unless they're willing to let us pick his Forge World?

I much prefer the second list. I think the first one didn’t really suit the playstyle you wanted to go for

So I think we have settled that Hoplites are generally more efficient than Fulgurites and Breachers when we're optimizing points and for the objective capture role (rather than optimizing every slot in a transport). But what about Hoplites vs. Corpuscarii? They are very similar in their profile (elites that can shoot and fight), though the roles seem a bit different.

Hoplites are cheap as hell and have 2x+1 attacks that are S6 AP-1 and Arc. They have 5++ that goes to 4++ against melee; natural 6s reflect a mortal in fighting. They can use Protector Doctrina, but really do not need to. They seem ideal for tying up T5 elites and T5-6 vehicles. I think they are ideal as inexpensive cannon fodder; MSU of 10x in a Boat.

Corpuscarii are a bit more expensive and have 3x S5 attacks that explode into 3 attacks on natural 6s. They got nerfed from 8E. The Overcharge stratagem gives them AP-2. They seem ideal for shooting T4 elites and maybe charging in to finish them off. I guess bring a 12x unit in a Drill as an aggressive Deep Striking threat?

So what do we think the new Skitarii character might be bringing?

Suzuteo wrote:So I think we have settled that Hoplites are generally more efficient than Fulgurites and Breachers when we're optimizing points and for the objective capture role (rather than optimizing every slot in a transport). But what about Hoplites vs. Corpuscarii? They are very similar in their profile (elites that can shoot and fight), though the roles seem a bit different.

Hoplites are cheap as hell and have 2x+1 attacks that are S6 AP-1 and Arc. They have 5++ that goes to 4++ against melee; natural 6s reflect a mortal in fighting. They can use Protector Doctrina, but really do not need to. They seem ideal for tying up T5 elites and T5-6 vehicles. I think they are ideal as inexpensive cannon fodder; MSU of 10x in a Boat.

Corpuscarii are a bit more expensive and have 3x S5 attacks that explode into 3 attacks on natural 6s. They got nerfed from 8E. The Overcharge stratagem gives them AP-2. They seem ideal for shooting T4 elites and maybe charging in to finish them off. I guess bring a 12x unit in a Drill as an aggressive Deep Striking threat?

For true melee purposes, which looks to be needed in 9th (still didn't get a game, just my undrestanding from batreps) Hoplites are superior. I'd say Corpuscarii have a mean shooting with a bonus CC in a pinch, and Hoplites have a mean CC with a bonus shooting. Hoplites are also more resilient (4+/5++) and cheaper, they have AP-1 and S6 means they can threaten Gravis and light vehicles. The mortal wounds on reflected hits is cherry on the cake, but never forget you can't let's say, roll 60 saves all at once, do 40 6s, and fail all the rest, killing the unit, to do 40 MWs. We have to roll dice per dice in this scenario, which can take a bit of time. At least that's my understanding, maybe you got tips on how to fast roll those.

Kanluwen wrote:So what do we think the new Skitarii character might be bringing?

I'm hoping, it's buffs to only <Skitarii> to make them more interesting. As I said a few pages ago, I'm hoping for a selectable aura that either gives bonus to CC or one that gives bonus to Shooting, something along these lines. Also hoping he's not a total wimp in CC like all our characters. AND T4.

Definitely hoping its a character that can hold his own in melee for once.
As been pointed out several times....tech priests (all flavors) suck for everythign except standing there with auras.

Apart from hating painting Skitarii... I need to wait for that Forgeworld update book before I decide if Hoplites are worth my time.

If they get access to Dogmas I'm totally in, if they don't....I'm probably going to stick to Breachers. Far more utility for the same points efficiency on a tougher model with actually useful guns for holding objectives and their weapons under trans node power cores make them better than Hoplites anyway, plus some other buffs, makes them a better move imo.

Breachers are obsec as well, so for the purpose of holding an objective and still being useful while they're there, Breachers seem like a better move imo.

As for the character....personally I hope we move away from having Skitarii specific things for no apparent reason. At the moment its there purely for thematic reasons, Skitarii cont get an inherant army benefit that non Skitarii do. Like if they added that all Skitarii could re-roll 1s to hit or something, then I'm all for having a thematic separation. At the moment its just a hinderance for me. Hopefully our 9th ed codex sorts out this jankey separation that's hanging around like a bad smell from 7th.

I thought so as well and then had my first game in 9th against guard.
LR with demolisher cannon and a Manticore on the opposite end of the table means your Kataphrons do jack feth.

Both wound on 2's, AP -2 upwards, flat 3D - even with Learnings of the Genetor and Graia they keeled over very, very quickly.

Rest to say I wont play Kataphrons against Guard anytime soom again

But I'm currently struggling to get lists done - very limited experience in 9th so far, so I'd appreciate some general advice.
I find myself struggling to fit anything that seems to be required - troops to hold objectives, guns to deal with the enemy threats. transports to actually get to the objective...

Earlier you'd went for min troops, build a castle and be done with it with Dragoons and Grators as your mobile element.
Now however, you need quite a lot of models to get the primary points which really eats into your ability to reduce the enemy or have transports.
It's like a magical triangle you never can satisfy all edges...

 Thairne wrote:
I thought so as well and then had my first game in 9th against guard.
LR with demolisher cannon and a Manticore on the opposite end of the table means your Kataphrons do jack feth.

Both wound on 2's, AP -2 upwards, flat 3D - even with Learnings of the Genetor and Graia they keeled over very, very quickly.

Rest to say I wont play Kataphrons against Guard anytime soom again

But I'm currently struggling to get lists done - very limited experience in 9th so far, so I'd appreciate some general advice.
I find myself struggling to fit anything that seems to be required - troops to hold objectives, guns to deal with the enemy threats. transports to actually get to the objective...

Earlier you'd went for min troops, build a castle and be done with it with Dragoons and Grators as your mobile element.
Now however, you need quite a lot of models to get the primary points which really eats into your ability to reduce the enemy or have transports.
It's like a magical triangle you never can satisfy all edges...

Manticores are Dd3, unless Tank Ace.

Demolishers are Dd6.

likely I'm remembering things wrong, I just remember after asking "damage?" getting a "flat 3" as an answer

That's a pretty specific scenario though. Not many things have D3 damage at that range with enough shots without LoS. You only have to knock a Guard tank down a bracket to all but take it out of the game anyway, 2 brackets and you can almost ignore a non character/ace.

Breachers, I see them as better anti elite with a side of anti light vehicle. Str 6 at ap -2 is the sweet spot and D3 dmg at decent range. And by the numbers the same melee as Hoplites under trans node power cores. We have plenty of other anti armour offerings and tough infantry is what it's gonna hold an objective. But you've gotta get them there and deal with the threats to keep them, there's not much that can just face tank whatever is thrown at them and live.

Everytime I look at Hoplites and Corpuscarii I can't help but feel like if I don't put them in a 100pt transport I might as well not take them at all. The transport gets them there in theory, they jump out and charge, take the objective and then get vaporised in your opponents shooting phase. That at least denied your opponent which is fine if you can score elsewhere. But they're never holding it long enough to score it.

And it hurts my head that even if they do get onto an objective they're then non combatants unless something charges them. They're more of a battering ram imo that needs to just keep ramming into stuff. If they stop they're dead.

Optimistically Breachers would stay there longer, but are dead slow by comparison. That's where raiders and Pteraxii come in imo. They get there and have to be dealt with while you're vehicles are less targeted and try to get rid of what threatens your objective holders. Then by turn 3 your Breachers are hopefully holding objectives with much less opposition and Raiders might have got you some points anyway.

I might just be being pessimistic because I don't have any Hoplites and trying to justify them to myself like this isn't working lol they are the most absurdly expensive unit ever money wise and to then have to put them into an absurdly expensive transport feels like a lot of work that I can't see paying off.

@Octovol
Honestly, I think Raiders are in 9E what Breachers were in 8E. Efficient wounds per point, and a move from midboard control to grind your opponent to death to a focus on objective control.

That is why I favor Boats. I can pile an objective with 1-3 Boats, body blocking enemies while shooting 12x S5 Heavy Stubbers each from afar. The Skitarii do nothing but hide inside the Boat. Which is why I want this package to be as cheap as possible. 200 for Boats+Hoplites, 190 for Boats+Vanguard.

Anyhow, I tweaked further. After my local lockdown ends, I will be playtesting this:


Watching those videos convinced me that I need some sort of non-LOS shooting. 2x Grators for that. 5x Ballistarii for anti-tank, 4x Dakkabots for anti-everything.

I pay for this by dropping one Boat+Hoplite unit. Basically, I will be relying more on my gunline to remove melee threats.

Still considering if I want to drop a Dakkabot for a Bomber. Those things are fearsome. Another option would be to drop the Enginseer to upgrade the Hoplites to Corpuscarii. Right now, the Enginseer is just a part of the Cawlstar.

4 dakkabots is just such consistent firepower but perhaps dropping to 3 is an acceptable trade.

I’m really looking forward to trying mine out on a game Thursday (scotland is doing quite well with virus stuff)

Think I’m up against either a strong death guard or sisters list.

I am struggling to finalise my list though. They always start easy. Cawl, 5 ballistari, some dogs...

And then I just never know which direction to take

My big question right now is what the best firebase is. I know that I am using a mix of Hoplites and Vanguard for my assault teams. Also know that I am using Cawl and Mars.

Personally, I favor either:
A) 5x Auto Balli, 4x Dakkabots, 2x Mortar Grator
B) 5x Auto Balli, 3x Mortar Grator, 2x Icarus Crawler, 1x Bomber

A has just amazingly strong output. B is consistent and tough as nails.

Would you feel confident dealing with hordes (option B)

Although less likely

 Suzuteo wrote:

Watching those videos convinced me that I need some sort of non-LOS shooting. 2x Grators for that. 5x Ballistarii for anti-tank, 4x Dakkabots for anti-everything.

---

Still considering if I want to drop a Dakkabot for a Bomber. Those things are fearsome. Another option would be to drop the Enginseer to upgrade the Hoplites to Corpuscarii. Right now, the Enginseer is just a part of the Cawlstar.

Do you have links for those videos? A quick YouTube search brought up a whole load of irrelevant stuff lol

So is the gameplan for the bomber, just swoop about diagonally and try and take out larger units of 1w models? With the occasional seismic bomb to slow something fast that's heading for an objective?

I'm coming round to the boat + cheap infantry way of thinking. Duneriders filled with bodies are not so easily removed.

I also have ideasweasel's affliction: Dominus, Daedalosus, doggos, sterylizors, balistarii and two big vehicles of some kind is what I'm working with atm. the numbers and variations of which fluctuate almost daily lol

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790684.page#10886728

Thats the current version of the SoB admech list I'm working on for the first Scottish tournament since covid in Sep

@Ideasweasel
Mortars are Blast now, and I will have a Bomber, so not too worried. Icarus Crawlers also always have had decent volume fire.

@Octovol
They just posted it on YT: https://youtu.be/KYYamZUbOyY

Yeah. Though if I had 5x Raiders, I would consider running that too. Those things are a very useful skirmishing tool. You only need one or two units of them too.

@Suzuteo how quickly do people in your area tend to pop transports?

In my area transports that dont deepstrike are virtually impossible to use. People tend to assume if there isnt something super lethal in them theres some secret trick up the owner's sleeve that they cant let happen, so they pop it anyway.
Dunno how many times I've brought a Dunerider and had it eat an unusually high amount of shots right off the bat. And I dont even own any hoplites yet so it's just plasma vanguards inside lol (if I run priests they use the drill)
Same goes for when I use orks. Multiple walkers and/or buggies? Nah, imma pop that trukk with boyz in it first. What the what? Lol.

This is probably clouding my personal value on dunerider. I just never seem them worth it but you always seem hell bent on them being the crutch to your tricks

@Vineheart
Yeah, that is normal. Transports are total bullet magnets. But everything dies; yet not everything can be made useful before dying. I always expect my Boats to be gone by round two, so advance them as far up the board as I can and position them to disembark their contents behind LOS-blockers. If they don't die, I park them on objectives (maybe drop 5 Vanguard off and then move on) and quietly score points while the rest of my army plays cagey to make smart trades. Given all the vehicles in my list are T6-7, it's quite easy to know what to trade for: kill anything with a S7-8 gun. Boats are also an element of threat saturation. In this case, I am forcing them to choose between exposing themselves to shoot my Boats, Ballistarii, or Dakkabots. It's funny, but they usually shoot my Boats for some reason. (This is even more obvious with the tanks list. Since they're all T7, if I hide my Ballistarii, people prefer to direct their S7 fire at the Boats.)

@U02dah4. Small world I stay in Aberdeen. Not many tournaments up here yet. I’m thinking of hosting one eventually. Have you heard of voidhammer in Elgin. That’s one I’m hoping to go to at some point.

Has Glasgow got a good tourney scene?

@Suzuteo ah my bad. I forgot belaros was blast

No real tournaments in Glasgow just clubs.

Almost all the big Scottish tournaments (barring voidhammer Andrew has tried to get me to go but its a little too far east) are based out of Common ground games in Stirling (with a couple of fluffier events in Dunfermline). Its a great venue with enough space and being central draws the players from accross Scotland. Glasgow doesn't really have anything comparable to it.

First tourney is Clan wars Sep 12th (but it sold out in 24 hours).

I play about 8 Scottish events and 2 English (BfEM and the LGT). a year

Ah cool. I’ve heard of common ground but have yet to attend. Maybe next year.

I met Andrew earlier in the year at a tournament. Nice guy and he offered me advice for me setting up a tourney.

8 events is a commendable number. I only really
Manage about 2-3 at most. Once things quiet down I hope to do more

@Ideasweasel
To be fair, Blast only makes a difference for Mortars at 11+. 3D3 always guarantees 3 shots.

Sooo, I recently came into possession of 15 dragoons.

Are dragoons out of favor now? Do they have a place in lists these days?

I plan on running all of them for a few games with friends to test them out against different armies.

Massed charges for the win! I plan on having 2 groups of 3 auto cannon ironstriders with them, 2 groups of hoplites in boats, a group of 5 raiders, and an engineseer as the rest of the list in an outrider detachment as the rest of the list. Comes out to 2k on the nose!

They got nerfed in 3 different ways in the transition to 9th they are fairly weak now