Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

1500 point game seize ground 5 objectives pitched battle.

My list Space Wolves:
HQ
Logan
Ragnar
Rune Priest: Living Lightning; Murderous Hurricane

Elite
3 x Wolf Guard Pack
2 x Power Fist
Arjac Punch you in the face Fist

Troops
8 x Grey Hunter Pack
Melta Gun
Power Fist
Wolf Standard
Mark of the Wulfen
Rhino

8 x Grey Hunter Pack
Melta Gun
Power Fist
Wolf Standard
Mark of the Wulfen
Rhino

6 x Long Fangs Pack
Leader
5 x Multi Melta
Drop Pod

Logan and Arjac attach to the Long Fangs.
Ragnar and Wolf Guard attach to one Grey Hunter Pack, Rune Priest and Wolf Guard to the other Grey Hunter Pack.

To my best knowledge the DE list was:

20 x Warriors with a Haemonculus.
9 x Wyches with a Haemonculus and Raider.
5 x Incubi with a Archon and raider.
10 x Wracks in a raider.
6 x jet bikes.
2 x Ravagers? the ones with 3 lances.
Combat drugs are to re-roll failed wounds in CC.

I think that is really close to his list sorry I can not remember all their special equipment.

I win the roll to go first.

Deployment:
I deploy my 2 rhinos kind of in the middle of my right flank with the Rune Priest squad behind a ruins, and Ragnar's Squad the full 12" out.

DE deploy warriors with Haemonculus in middle behind a wall.
Wracks in Raider and a Ravager on his left across from my guys
Wyches with Haemonculus and Raider, Incubi with Archon and Raider, and a Ravager on his right flank.
Jet bikes in reserve.

DE fail to steal the initiative.

Space Wolf Turn One.
Movement:
I drop pod in on my right flank on the right side of his Wracks and Ravager. with Logan's squad relentless.
Ragnar zooms out 12".
Rune Priest moves a little so he has LOS to the left flank.

Shooting:
Long fangs split fire with their MM, explode the Wracks Raider killing one they pass their pin check, and we wreck the Ravager.
Ragnar pops smoke on his Rhino.
Rune Priest Living Lightnings, and explodes the Wyches with Haemonculus Raider. None die and they pass their pin check.

DE Turn One.
Movement:
Warriors don't move.
Ravager on his right flank moves 6" sideways towards the middle.
Incubi with Archon turbo boost right up to Ragnar's Rhino
Wyches with Haemonculus move up.
Wracks move up on his left flank.

Shooting:
He only managed to stun Ragnar's Rhino.
Wyches with Haemonculus and the Wracks run up.

Space Wolf Turn Two.
Movement:
Logan's squad goes relentless and moves toward the Wracks.
Ragnar and company jump out of their Rhino and move to within 1" of the Raider with Incubi and Archon.
Rune Priest and friends move forward 6".

Shooting:
Drop Pod tries to shoot the Raider in front of Ragnar, and falls short, but now I know 3 MM are in range from the Long Fangs.
Long Fangs split fire 3 MM at the Raider in front of Ragnar. It explodes killing one of my Grey Hunters, Incubi with Archon pass their pin check. Logan, leader and other 2 MM shot the Wracks only killing 1 because of cover saves.
Ragnar and company fire on the Incubi with Archon killing none.
Rune Priest Murderous Hurricanes the Incubi with Archon again failing to killing any.

Assault Phase:
Ragnar and company charge Incubi with Archon, Ragnar rolls a 5 for his +D3 attacks on the charge. Archon swings and only kills one Grey Hunter, Ragnar swings and kills all 5 Incubi, Grey Hunters swing and cause 1 rend and 12 regular wound on the Archon. He dies.

Now here I get a 5 to consolidate I decide to move toward the Wyches with Haemonculus. I did this in order to see how well I could take a charge from these bad boys. Normally I would have moved away and just shot them in the face.

DE Turn Two.
Movement:
Jet bkies fail to come on from reserves.
Wracks try to move through terrain away from Logan and friends, but roll low.
Warriors stay still.
Wyches with Haemonculus move toward Ragnar and company.

Shooting:
Ravager shoots Rune Priest Rhino and stuns it twice.
Warriors with Haemonculus unload into Ragnar's squad, but we roll amazing and only one regular guy dies.
Wracks fail at running.
Wyches with Archon fleet.

Assault Phase:
Wyches with Archon assault Ragnar and company, we counter attack and pop the Wolf Standard.
Wyches swing and do a wound to Ragnar, and kill 2 Grey Hunters, Haemonculus swings and misses.
Ragnar kills 1 then he rolls all 4's for everything else or makes his FnP.
Ragnar passes his check at minus 2.

Space Wolf Turn Three.
Movement:
Logan goes PE and him and his friends move toward the Wracks.
Ragnar's Rhino moves 12" toward the Warriors.

Shooting:
Drop Pod manages to shot and kill 1 Warrior.
Rune Priest Rhino pops smoke.

Assault Phase:
Logan and friends assault the Wracks. Logan kills 6, one swings back and misses on the squad then he dies. I consolidate 5" toward the Warrior and I am now 1" or 2" away from them.
Ragnar and company draw combat with the Wyches and Haemonculus. only Ragnar, 4 Wyches and the Haemonculus are left.

DE Turn Three.
Movement:
Jet bikes come in from reserves turbo boost over Logan's squad and drop bombs or whatever and manage to kill nothing.

Shooting:
Ravager shots Logan's squad and misses all three shots.
Warriors unload on Logan's squad killing all but Logan and Arjac (Arjac takes a wound).

Assault Phase:
Warriors with Haemonculus assault Logan and Arjac. Logan counter attacks and kills 6. Warriors do 3 wounds to Arjac, and I roll 3 1's so yea he dies, Logan saves all his. We win combat by 5. Warriors with Haemonculus break and run.

Wyches do a wound to Ragnar. Ragnar kills the Haemonculus, Wyches break and get away. Ragnar consolidates 6".

Space Wolf Turn Four.
Movement:
Logan moves up to force the Warriors off the board.
Raganr moves toward the Jet bikes Ragnar's Rhino move up beside the Wyches to force them off the board.
Rune Priest and friends move up 6" to sit on an objective.

Shooting: Rune Priest Living Lightnings the last Ravager out of the sky.

Assault Phase:
Ragnar assaults the jet bikes with 7 attacks he wipes them. Unfortunately they are I6 so get to swing, and finish off Ragnar.

DE Turn Four.
Movement:
Warriors are forced to flee and run off the board.
Wyches are forced to flee and run off the board.

Massacre

The End.

Was a really fun game. I think the major down fall for the DE was how fragile their vehicles are. I will always have a Rune Priest with Living Lightning in a tournament list thats for sure. This one spell absolutely rock DE vehicles. I was really worried about the DE CC, but it wasn't to bad. I am sure there are probably nastier things in the codex though. Anyway hope people find this helpful, and I would love some feed back.

i can't make heads or tails out of the DE list but you mention a squad of wyches w/an archon then he becomes a haemonculus. well, whatever it really is it didn't function correctly...

1) if it was an archon, the list was illegal as he had too many HQs.
2) if it was a haemy, then he wouldn't have had fleet to assault you with the wyches on T2.

i think it was a solid win for yourself. without seeing a better copy of the DE list i can only guess that your opponent was lacking some serious darklight weoponry! you toasted 1/2 of all his lances on turn 1's shooting phase...they just can't have that happen.

i didn't hear you mention flicker field saves or haemy's using liquifiers either. 50 pts for free FnP is ok, but i think they should pack a punch as well.

did he say why he reserved the reavers? if he gave them the cluster caltrops then they really REALLY underperformed in their drive-by.

good game by yourself though! i think you made the right plays at each step in the game.

Wyches had a Haemonculus with them so he shouldn't have fleeted I guess. He had 1 Archon with the Incubi and he had 2 Haemonculus one with Wyches and one with the Warriors. So he had 3 HQ. He said you can take 2 Haemonculus in a HQ slot. Most everything had FnP, but I had a ton of power weapon and power fist/thunder hammer attacks. The Jet bikes failed at there fly by he had 4 D3 and 2 D6 things drop on Logan's crew, but I made all my saves. He had some saves on his vehicles, and he made a few. Every time I shot them I would get at least 2 pins through, and AP 1 MM on an open top vehicle is rough. I wish I knew DE better, sorry, but this was my first game against the new DE codex. I personally didn't feel threatened by anything he had in the list, it didn't feel like he had much synergy going on through out his army. Where as my game plan was very simple. Deny a flank then drop Logan's relentless MM with Arjac support on the enemies closest flank, and march them through shooting up armour and beating face in CC, with Ragnar flanking them with more CC support. I love this list, and it has always played extremely well for me taking on all comers. The one unit of DE I thought was pretty bad ass were the Wyches, I6, FnP, Fleet, Power Weapon, Poison, 4+ invuln oh my, and he was hot with the damn Wyches invuln save. If they hadn't finally broke in that last round of combat with Ragnar I think they would have killed him most likely.

Only the Hekatrix can take an Agonizer (wounds on a 4+, power weapon), I don't know if thats what you meant but your last post might suggest they all had them. If they did, you got cheated.

The DE player was a bit silly putting his raiders out to get shot down on T1 like that, but kudos to you

Only thing he could have done is reserve them, but not sure that would have helped, especially if they came in piece meal. All 3 that I popped round 1 had cover, he just failed his 4+ cover saves. I rolled 6 on Living Lightning on one raider turn one hit with all, and pinned with 4 and 1 glance so yea it was some amazing Rune Priest rolling too. Only one Wyche had a power weapon thingy with 4+ poison. I am learning a lot about DE out only 2 post so far. If my friend made mistakes they were honest mistakes he is a good guy, and wouldn't cheat on purpose. There is a lot to learn with this new codex, but I feel confident that my Space Wolves will hold up well against them.

Accidental post in wrong thread being moved by The Mgmt.

Honestly that's a fairly bad DE list. Too little Darklight/Melta, too little synergy among the units, and only 2 Ravagers is slightly fail. But good win nonetheless. Rune Priests are fairly brutal, but expect a DE player to wipe them off of the board T1 if they are experienced. Only thing even close to the same priority is a Long Fang squad with Missile Launchers, as they are just as destructive to DE vehicles and troops.

Also, Haemis can be taken between 1-3 as a single HQ choice, so he was not cheating.

According to the DE codex you can take 1-3 Haemonculi per HQ you have.

vishra wrote:Honestly that's a fairly bad DE list. Too little Darklight/Melta, too little synergy among the units, and only 2 Ravagers is slightly fail. But good win nonetheless. Rune Priests are fairly brutal, but expect a DE player to wipe them off of the board T1 if they are experienced. Only thing even close to the same priority is a Long Fang squad with Missile Launchers, as they are just as destructive to DE vehicles and troops.

Also, Haemis can be taken between 1-3 as a single HQ choice, so he was not cheating.

Yea I felt his list was weak without having ever done more then skim the codex and read a few articles online. As for Rune Priest, I don't ever see a DE army wiping anything off the board turn 1 with nothing but str 8 shooting and short ranged melta. A DE army can't fly into the face of a Space Wolf army they will not win that fight.

Sol wrote: A DE army can't fly into the face of a Space Wolf army they will not win that fight.

Um... I would take that bet...

Anglacon wrote:

Sol wrote: A DE army can't fly into the face of a Space Wolf army they will not win that fight.

Um... I would take that bet...

Me too especially since DE don't have much to deal with Wolves in CC. Blood Angels don't even match up with Wolves in CC. Unless you are playing someone who doesn't have a clue how to kit his squads out.

Sol wrote:Blood Angels don't even match up with Wolves in CC. Unless you are playing someone who doesn't have a clue how to kit his squads out.

I know the Internet loves to venerate Grey Hunters and all, but this is ridiculous. What game are you playing where Furious Charge and FNP are inferior to Counterattack?

I've been doing nothing but testing DE against SW; I've got plenty of tricks for taking Grey Hunters and Rune Priests off the board pretty quickly, at this point.

I love Grey Hunters and all, but they are not the end all be all.

Beamo wrote:I've been doing nothing but testing DE against SW; I've got plenty of tricks for taking Grey Hunters and Rune Priests off the board pretty quickly, at this point.

I love Grey Hunters and all, but they are not the end all be all.

How are the grey hunter squads kitted out? What are you taking them out so fast with?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fetterkey wrote:

Sol wrote:Blood Angels don't even match up with Wolves in CC. Unless you are playing someone who doesn't have a clue how to kit his squads out.

I know the Internet loves to venerate Grey Hunters and all, but this is ridiculous. What game are you playing where Furious Charge and FNP are inferior to Counterattack?

Its called a Wolf Standard. Unless it is a squad with 4 power weapons in it a wolf standard will almost always stop a furious charge in its tracks. Then you just counter assault on your turn. I actually just posted a BA Bat Rep where this happens.

10 Blood Angel Assault Marines with a Sergeant with power weapon and in range of a Sanguinary Priest attack 10 Grey Hunters with Wolf Standard:

First, 10 bolt pistol shots inflict 6.6 hits, 3.3 wounds, 1.1 Grey Hunters go down. Now, in most cases, there will be some special weapons in the mix, but we'll ignore that for now. The Blood Angels then get 27 normal attacks, which inflict 13.5 hits, 9 wounds, 2 Grey Hunters die thanks to the Wolf Standard (9 wounds mean 1.5 guys die on twos, 1.5 guys roll ones and get to reroll, .5 of those die anyway) The Sergeant swings 4 times, 2 hits, 1.3 Grey Hunters die outright. The Grey Hunters thus take 4.4 casualties before they get a chance to attack.

The remaining 5.6 Grey Hunters get 16.8 attacks (we'll assume they passed their Counterattack check), which score 9.8 hits and 5.7 wounds thanks to the Wolf Standard. The Blood Angels fail 1.9 saves, then test FNP and ultimately lose 0.95 guys. The Blood Angels thus win assault by 2.35 (1.1 of their kills were provided by shooting).

This doesn't really seem like "stopping a furious charge in its tracks."


10 Grey Hunters with Wolf Standard attack 10 Blood Angel Assault Marines with a Sergeant with power weapon and in range of a Sanguinary Priest:

First, 10 bolt pistol shots inflict 6.6 hits, 3.3 wounds, 1.1 Assault Marines fail their saves, 0.55 of whom fail FNP. Again, there will be some special weapons in the mix, but we'll ignore that for now. The Grey Hunters then get 30 normal attacks, which inflict 17.5 hits, 10.25 wounds, 3.41 failed saves, 1.705 failed FNP rolls. The Assault Marines thus take 2.255 casualties, 0.55 of which occur at range and prevent the lost models from counterattacking.

The remaining 8.45 Assault Marines get 16.9 attacks, which score 8.45 hits and 4.225 wounds. The Grey Hunters fail 0.94 saves. The Sergeant then gets 3 attacks, which score 1.5 hits and kill 0.75 Grey Hunters outright. We end up with the Blood Angels inflicting 1.69 wounds in assault to the Grey Hunters' 1.705, which is close enough that on average we're going to see a drawn combat, which then tilts towards the BA in future rounds as the GH get reduced attacks and no longer benefit from their wolf standard.


It seems that ASMs are indeed better than Grey Hunters in close assault, wolf standard or no wolf standard-- they win on the charge and draw when charged.

Fetterkey wrote:10 Blood Angel Assault Marines with a Sergeant with power weapon and in range of a Sanguinary Priest attack 10 Grey Hunters with Wolf Standard:

First, 10 bolt pistol shots inflict 6.6 hits, 3.3 wounds, 1.1 Grey Hunters go down. Now, in most cases, there will be some special weapons in the mix, but we'll ignore that for now. The Blood Angels then get 27 normal attacks, which inflict 13.5 hits, 9 wounds, 2 Grey Hunters die thanks to the Wolf Standard (9 wounds mean 1.5 guys die on twos, 1.5 guys roll ones and get to reroll, .5 of those die anyway) The Sergeant swings 4 times, 2 hits, 1.3 Grey Hunters die outright. The Grey Hunters thus take 4.4 casualties before they get a chance to attack.

The remaining 5.6 Grey Hunters get 16.8 attacks (we'll assume they passed their Counterattack check), which score 9.8 hits and 5.7 wounds thanks to the Wolf Standard. The Blood Angels fail 1.9 saves, then test FNP and ultimately lose 0.95 guys. The Blood Angels thus win assault by 2.35 (1.1 of their kills were provided by shooting).

This doesn't really seem like "stopping a furious charge in its tracks."


10 Grey Hunters with Wolf Standard attack 10 Blood Angel Assault Marines with a Sergeant with power weapon and in range of a Sanguinary Priest:

First, 10 bolt pistol shots inflict 6.6 hits, 3.3 wounds, 1.1 Assault Marines fail their saves, 0.55 of whom fail FNP. Again, there will be some special weapons in the mix, but we'll ignore that for now. The Grey Hunters then get 30 normal attacks, which inflict 17.5 hits, 10.25 wounds, 3.41 failed saves, 1.705 failed FNP rolls. The Assault Marines thus take 2.255 casualties, 0.55 of which occur at range and prevent the lost models from counterattacking.

The remaining 8.45 Assault Marines get 16.9 attacks, which score 8.45 hits and 4.225 wounds. The Grey Hunters fail 0.94 saves. The Sergeant then gets 3 attacks, which score 1.5 hits and kill 0.75 Grey Hunters outright. We end up with the Blood Angels inflicting 1.69 wounds in assault to the Grey Hunters' 1.705, which is close enough that on average we're going to see a drawn combat, which then tilts towards the BA in future rounds as the GH get reduced attacks and no longer benefit from their wolf standard.


It seems that ASMs are indeed better than Grey Hunters in close assault, wolf standard or no wolf standard-- they win on the charge and draw when charged.

Yea except you left out the MotW (D6+1 +1 from counter attack) attacks with rending, and the 5 power fist attacks from the 2 power fist. So yes I agree with your math on a naked unit furious charge and FnP are much better then a wolf standard alone, but that isn't how it will happen in a game.

You are also ignoring the fact that Grey Hunters have Counter Attack + bolters, so could rapid fire and then take the charge next turn if they wanted to. A fully loaded Grey Hunter unit with Power Weapon, MoTW, 2 Meltaguns and a Wolf Standard is 195pts (+ 35 for the Rhino). 10 Assault Marines are 235pts with Power Fist and 2 Meltaguns which is comparable (faster without a transport, less shooting ability) but if you add the Priest in as well then the Blood Angels are much more expensive.

On the charge the Grey Hunters will average slightly more than 2 kills (with the Wolf Standard but will vary a bit given how random the MoTW is) and in return the Blood Angels will get roughly 3 kills back (I can't be bothered posting the exact numbers as the Wolf Standard makes my brain hurt) which is not exactly a convincing win. Obviously on the charge the Assault Marines would win, but the Grey Hunters will still average the same number of return kills whether they get charged or not, and when you allow for the Grey Hunters and often the rest of the Space Wolf army in general having much better shooting things are more likely to go there way. Even allowing the GHs a single round of rapid fire + meltaguns before taking the charged would probably be enough to tip things in their favour. Note all this assumes the BAs have a Priest to give them FNP and FC (otherwise it would be closer to 4 kills in the initial round for the SWs and even on the charge the Assault Marines would probably lose) which makes the Blood Angels clearly more expensive but doesn't give them a clear win in combat even if they charge.

Sol wrote:you left out the MotW (D6+1 +1 from counter attack) attacks with rending, and the 5 power fist attacks from the 2 power fist. So yes I agree with your math on a naked unit furious charge and FnP are much better then a wolf standard alone, but that isn't how it will happen in a game.

It is rare for me to see one power fist in a 10 man GH squad, much less 2, since most people seem to value the second special ranged weapon over the Wolf Guard for Rhino squads, and 25 points for a power fist on a model with 1 attack on profile is not worth it. Then again, most people field 5 man Grey Hunter units anyway, sometimes with a Wolf Guard but sometimes not, which only exacerbates this problem.

Fetterkey wrote:

Sol wrote:you left out the MotW (D6+1 +1 from counter attack) attacks with rending, and the 5 power fist attacks from the 2 power fist. So yes I agree with your math on a naked unit furious charge and FnP are much better then a wolf standard alone, but that isn't how it will happen in a game.

It is rare for me to see one power fist in a 10 man GH squad, much less 2, since most people seem to value the second special ranged weapon over the Wolf Guard for Rhino squads, and 25 points for a power fist on a model with 1 attack on profile is not worth it. Then again, most people field 5 man Grey Hunter units anyway, sometimes with a Wolf Guard but sometimes not, which only exacerbates this problem.

Strange, IDK what to tell you, I guess I play much more aggressive with my Wolves then some others. Also that extra power fist only has 1 attack if they fail their counter attack, and in subsequent rounds of combat. Neither happens that often so I like 2 fist in a squad personally, 5 fist to the face re-rolling 1's in a round when needed is brutal. When I run Razor back squads I go 5 Grey Hunters with Fist, MotW, Wolf Standard, Melta and a Wolf Guard with a Fist or Frost Weapon. Usually a fist though. I would be worried running a 10 man squad with no str 8 power weapon, you could get stuck in with a armour 12+ walker and be completely screwed.

That is why you avoid those walkers with that squad or have a squad dedicated to bailing them out. With my Sisters I regularly field 10 man squads with Meltas, no Eviscerator, no melta bombs and no grenades. I just have a Canoness nearby or I make sure I have multiple levels of redundancy to kill the walker.

calypso2ts wrote:That is why you avoid those walkers with that squad or have a squad dedicated to bailing them out. With my Sisters I regularly field 10 man squads with Meltas, no Eviscerator, no melta bombs and no grenades. I just have a Canoness nearby or I make sure I have multiple levels of redundancy to kill the walker.

Yea, but to be honest I build the fist in for CC against other infantry, and grenades or rending can take any walker out. Just saying it gets the job done quicker in a tight pinch.