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As a preface to the title I have to say that I have yet, in almost 3 years of playing Warhammer 40k, to really beat an Eldar player. There only being two in our group, with the other quitting for Space Wolves.

I'm really looking for general tactics, guidelines, excellent units to use against his force.

He really likes to vary his list up, but generally he brings Wraithguard, Seer Council, Eldrad, Howling Banshees, various Falcon and Wave Serpent configurations, Dire Avengers, and another HQ unit against me. He enjoys bringing the pain because I have yet to beat him and he knows when I do finally defeat him; that victory is going to be so savory sweet.

I use, in my 2000 pt list

HQ-
Daemon Prince w/ Wings, Mark of Nurgle, and Warptime
175 pts.

Troops-
10 Plague Marine - 2 x Melta, Champion w/ P. Fist
290 pts.
Rhino w/ Extra Armor and Havoc Launcher
65 pts.

10 Plague Marine - 2 x Melta, Champion w/ P. Fist
290 pts.
Rhino w/ Extra Armor and Havoc Launcher
65 pts.

10 Plague Marine - 2 x Melta, Champion w/ P. Fist
290 pts.
Rhino w/ Extra Armor and Havoc Launcher
65 pts.

10 Plague Marine - 2 x Melta, Champion w/ P. Fist
290 pts.
Rhino w/ Extra Armor and Havoc Launcher
65 pts.

Heavy Support -
Obliterator Cult x 3
225

Defiler w/ Twin-linked Las Cannon, and Close combat arm
175

Total: 1995


As for the excess in Melta I don't fight anything but MEQ so I've, personally, felt no reason to take anything besides.
I know some criticism leveled at this list is the fact that I could drop 12 Plague Marines, 3 from each squad, and save 276 points. As well as killing the Havoc Launchers for another 60 points leaving me with an extra 336 to spare.

With this in mind what can I do with either the list I have or, after nixing the 12 Marines and Havoc Launchers, what could I do with 336 points?

I apologize for the long winded-ness.

While I don't have a ton of experience, looking at things more academically I'd say Obliterators would be great against them. Heavy Bolters for those with the lighter armor, switch up to Lascannons or Meltas or something for removing tanks, and to Plasma for taking out the heavier-armored troops. Eldar armies aren't quite as standardized as Marines, so adaptability is helpful.

You're not going to beat their initiative in close combat. So you'll need to be able to survive long enough to strike. I'd say Plague Marines are a good start there.

Can't think of much else off the top of my head. I wish I knew more about the new CSM codex, but it's so..bland now. I find it difficult to retain anything from it.

I appreciate your swift response.

You do make some great points. You're right that Eldar are much less standardized, so maybe taking too much anti-MEQ is what is hurting me. I'll definitely try Heavy Bolters, and toss some Plasma in there somewhere. Maybe Plasma pistols, you'd think?

Well, I meant more that Obliterators can have whatever you need at that moment. I'd almost consider a second squad of them.
Unsure about Plasma Pistols. 12" range is a bit iffy when most of his army is Fleet or in skimmers.

silpheedpilot wrote:
I'm really looking for general tactics, guidelines, excellent units to use against his force.

He really likes to vary his list up, but generally he brings Wraithguard, Seer Council, Eldrad, Howling Banshees, various Falcon and Wave Serpent configurations, Dire Avengers, and another HQ unit against me. He enjoys bringing the pain because I have yet to beat him and he knows when I do finally defeat him; that victory is going to be so savory sweet.

I use, in my 2000 pt list

HQ-
Daemon Prince w/ Wings, Mark of Nurgle, and Warptime
175 pts.

Troops-
10 Plague Marine - 2 x Melta, Champion w/ P. Fist
290 pts.
Rhino w/ Extra Armor and Havoc Launcher
65 pts.

Heavy Support -
Obliterator Cult x 3
225

Defiler w/ Twin-linked Las Cannon, and Close combat arm
175

As for the excess in Melta I don't fight anything but MEQ so I've, personally, felt no reason to take anything besides.
I know some criticism leveled at this list is the fact that I could drop 12 Plague Marines, 3 from each squad, and save 276 points. As well as killing the Havoc Launchers for another 60 points leaving me with an extra 336 to spare.

With this in mind what can I do with either the list I have or, after nixing the 12 Marines and Havoc Launchers, what could I do with 336 points?

I apologize for the long winded-ness.

Personally I would change out the oblitorators for two units of Havocs. One with heavy bolters and one with either autocannons or missile launchers. 5 havocs with 4 HBs is 135 points and 5 havocs with 4 missile launchers or autocannons is 155pts for a grand total of 290. Thats 65 more than the oblitorators but they have more wounds, are 2 units that can be put in separate places making it more difficult to assault and can target 2 things. You also get a ton more firepower. Feel that autocannons are not going to cut it against a falcon, try it out. 8 shots will average a pen and a glance against armor 12.

I guess I want to know how many vehciles he has before I am sure of how to proceed but even if everyhting is in a armor 12 skimmer I would go for 2 units of Havocs, one with missiles the other with auto cannons for 310 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also do you feel you really need the power fists? most things are going to wound on 3+ anyway. Against wraith guard I suppose they are useful, but if you have his wraithguard in CC you have bascailly already won.

Coming from an Eldar player's perspective,

The most effective weapons against Eldar Armies are Missile Launchers and Auto Cannons.

Missile Launchers are just as effective as las cannons against most Eldar tanks, and our army has no 2+ saves except on phoenix lords.
Auto Cannons have a higher rate of fire, and can reliably threaten nearly all of the units Eldar put on the table.

That being said, Plague Marines are notoriously difficult for Eldar to remove from the table. I would consider lowering the squad size to fit in more goodies, and switching some of your melta guns for plasma. Plasma is useful because of the s7, and longer range. Sitting on an objective in cover and shooting s7 plasma will be a thorn in ANY Eldar's side, foot or mech. Not to mention Plague Marines very rarely die from their own plas.

Redundancy in your long range big guns iis important! Most Eldar list run at least 1, usually 2, and sometimes 3 fire dragon squads. The purpose of these squads is to fly straight into your lines, eliminate key units, and then die. Against you, I'd probably send a squad against your Obliterators and the other against your DP. That would be bad for your list.

On the point of Obliterators, they really are "dragon bait". if a squad of Fire Dragons can find them, they'll take massive casualties. Expensive, low model count, multi-wound, 2+ save units are ideal targets for Fire Dragons. The fact that they form nearly all of your long range anti tank makes them top priorities as well.

I'd consider running 2 squads of havocs instead of Oblits against Eldar. Give them either all auto cannons or all missile launchers, park them in cover with good firing lanes, and give em a few ablative wounds. This is exponentially more concerning to Eldar then Oblits, as Havoc squads in cover with ablative wounds absorb dragon fire easily, and multiple missile or auto cannon barrages are far more effective against Eldar tanks than a single las cannon or multi melta- especially since the wave serpent special rule makes anything over s8 count as s8, and ignores the melta special rule!

In short drop plague squads down to 7 each (nurgle's sacred number ) and ditch the obliterators and defiler. Use the extra points to grab some plas guns for your plague marines and 2 squds of auto cannon or eml havocs.

That would scare me at least for what thats worth!

@Exergy

I suppose I don't NEED Power Fists but I've always taken them as a precaution, if you will. Don't kill anything with the Plague Marines then you're almost guaranteed to with the Power Fist. However, I can see where they just soak up points. Good call.

I know I'm a little vague in how many tanks he takes. Somewhere around... I want to say 5. 4 Wave Serpents and a single Falcon. It's really hard to pinpoint exactly how many he is going to take in any given situation. I think I may go ahead with that two-squad Havoc idea. I really like the volume of fire they can put down. I don't think I've ever given them much of a chance.

@akaean

I appreciate an Eldar players viewpoint on the issue. You basically reinforced what Exergy said in taking Havocs with Autocannons and Missile Launchers. I think I'm going to have to drop those Obliterators and Defiler, much to my chagrin.

If you're conflicted at all, listen to him much more than me.

Holy bloat, Batman! No offense, but my 1500 CSM list stands a good shot against this army.

First, all the Extra Armor has to go. Havoc Launchers are filler for when you've got 15-50 points left over, so let's drop them for now. Those Plague Marine squads need to be smaller, and drop the Powerfist Champions; the return for your 40 point investment is dubious. I like 7 man squads, as they give you a good amount padding for your special weapons. The last thing is the Defiler's set-up; the TL-Lascannon will never be the optimal thing to fire so drop it. That saves you 576 points, instead of 336.

Now for restructuring the list: you need more close combat and long ranged anti-tank. You really, really don't need 4 Plague Marine squads for scoring, so drop that down to 3 and turn the fourth into Berserkers or CSM. Berserkers or CSM with Powerfist Champion, and Meltaguns and an IoK in the CSM's case, will give you some much needed CC without really dipping into those extra points. You need to use that third Heavy Support slot for either Autocannon/Missile Launcher Havocs, or a Predator. Then you'll want to go and get either Dreadnoughts or Termicide from your Elites section; they'll help bolster both your ranged anti-tank needs and add to what you can throw into close combat.

Daemon Prince, Wings, MoN, Warptime, 175
Dreadnought, Missile Launcher, Heavy Flamer, 105
Dreadnought, TL-AC, Heavy Flamer, 115
Dreadnought, Plasmacannon, Heavy Flamer, 110
7 Plague Marines, 2 Meltaguns, Rhino w/ Havoc Launcher, 231
7 Plague Marines, 2 Meltaguns, Rhino w/ Havoc Launcher, 231
7 Plague Marines, 2 Meltaguns, Rhino w/ Havoc Launcher, 231
10 CSM, Champion w/ Powerfist, 2 Meltaguns, IoK, Rhino w/ Havoc Launcher, 290
3 Obliterators, 225
Deflier, 2 CCWs, 150
Predator, Autolas, 130
1993

I even had room left to stick all the Havoc Launchers back on. Look at how much more stuff that is! Your army will feel almost exactly the same, except that you've now got 3 Dreadnoughts and a Predator out of nowhere. With a list like this, shoot the Eldar with the intention of stunning/immobilizing their vehicles; you just need to lock them down while you walk your 5 Walker/MCs into his face.

akaean wrote:
The most effective weapons against Eldar Armies are Missile Launchers and Auto Cannons.

Missile Launchers are just as effective as las cannons against most Eldar tanks, and our army has no 2+ saves except on phoenix lords.
Auto Cannons have a higher rate of fire, and can reliably threaten nearly all of the units Eldar put on the table.

I'd consider running 2 squads of havocs instead of Oblits against Eldar. Give them either all auto cannons or all missile launchers, park them in cover with good firing lanes, and give em a few ablative wounds. This is exponentially more concerning to Eldar then Oblits, as Havoc squads in cover with ablative wounds absorb dragon fire easily, and multiple missile or auto cannon barrages are far more effective against Eldar tanks than a single las cannon or multi melta- especially since the wave serpent special rule makes anything over s8 count as s8, and ignores the melta special rule!

+1
got the reply out first, HAHA.

@DarkHound

I'm aware of the "bloat", trust me. Haha, but when all you fight is MEQ those Power Fists REALLY come in handy. Either way, I may run your list a few times and see how it plays out. It's definitely not what I'm used to as I've never used Chaos Dreadnoughts before but, wow, it's definitely eye opening when you squeezed so much stuff into 2000 points.

Also; this may be a silly question but why drop the Extra Armor? I think I'd rather take it than a Havoc Launcher. Not being able to move AND shoot on the chance that they score a 4 on the glancing, or 2 on the penetration table seems a bit odd.

Man, that's nothin'; you should see what I can do with Armored Company Guard.

A note about the Dreadnoughts; though this is a somewhat debatable, Dreadnoughts should rarely friendly fire. On a Fire Frenzy roll, they'll check for targets from their gun's firing arches (as that is the only way Walkers draw LoS), then pivot to center both guns on their target. Unless your CSM have a penchant for standing in front of the thing, the crazy table is naught but a boon.

As for the Powerfists on the Plague Marines, you've got two options: get a single extra kill per round, or throw a Dreadnought into the fray. Which do you pick? Obviously the Dreadnought, who will walk through that Grey Hunters pack. It is essential you understand my point about Fire Frenzy, otherwise you won't keep your Dreadnoughts close enough to support your infantry.

To your question about the Extra Armor, this is why it is terrible: you pay a 43% increase in price to mitigate a 17% chance. You can almost get a whole extra Rhino for every 2 Extra Armors you take. It is simply inefficient.

But consider this point: Replacing the Havoc launchers with Extra Armor replaces the same point cost item with something that can keep you moving after you took a table roll that should have kept you from moving AND shooting.

I see what you're saying, I do and when you put it into a percentile it really drives the point home but I have to stand by what's helped me in the past. Everything else in the list make more sense than you will ever know and it really gets me thinking; 'I have been playing this army all wrong the whole time!'


EDIT: With 2500 points what would you suggest?

I like Darkhound's and akean's points.

I do like powerfists in my Troops squads (10 man CSMs, 7 or 8 PMs, or 8 Berserker squads), but in a list like DH's the Dreads more or less take the place of the fists.

The biggest adaptation to my all-comers lists to help deal with Eldar is filling my HS slots with a combination of Oblits and 4xML Havoc squads. 48" range heavy weapons are key to knocking down those grav tanks rather than letting them run around the edges of the table unharmed and shooting you, only to swoop in and hold or contest objectives at the end of the game. I'm not generally a fan of Defilers or Preds against Eldar, both because Fire Dragons love to eat tanks, and because a single Glance from an EML, Brightlance, or Scatter Laser in the Pred's side armor can suppress your shooting for a turn, whereas they actually need to kill the Oblits or Havocs. If you're running Oblits, though, be sure to use area terrain for cover saves and have other units in position to intercept runs at them made by transports carrying Fire Dragons.

The only thing I'd be worried about with Darkhounds proposed list is the ever-present chance of your dreadnoughts blazing away with blissful joy at your own army. Just take care in how you deploy those bad-boys.

As for the Defiler, if you had the TL-Lascannon on there, were you ever firing the Battlecannon? The way I play my defiler is with the max number of Dreadnought close-combat weapons, then just walk him down the board firing off that cannon each range. When you're close enough, charge away and watch the limbs fly.

Admittedly I'm nowhere near as tactically gifted as Darkhound, though, so I defer to his prowess.

(Also, kudos on playing your list fluffy. That's something you just don't see much of lately.)

Thank you. I'm glad you noticed how fluffy it was despite how, unfortunately, inefficient it worked out. As much as I'd love to adhere to lore and fluff it's just not tactically sound sometimes. I mean, I never did BAD but when all you fight is MEQ it's easy to fall into a habit and end up with a list you're mentally comfortable with. It's okay, though. Nurgle is still my bro.

On the topic at hand I'll admit that one or the other gun got put to the wayside when I used the Defiler. Either I'd be too far away for my enemies to shoot me or I'd use just the Lascannon because the Battle Cannon wasn't doing the work I wanted it to.

As far as tactics go, you could play almost any list. Just bare in mind that Eldar are fast. My usual trick is to institute a refused flank and keep my army huddled in a bubonic mob. Effectively only fighting half of my opponent's army for the first two turns. By the time he's rolled his troops around to threaten my flank I've usaully dealt enough destruction on his immediate battleline to counter the remainder of his army. If he sets up second all the better for you to deepstrike some termies and Oblits behind his forces.
Fluffy or otherwise I believe in the old Andy Chambers motto. If you have spare points buy more troops. Summoned deamons are cheap and create enough mayhem for you to hold onto the initiative plus your opponent will be worried about them the entire game. Less tanks will deny his effective lance weapons and Fire dragons are weak in CC.
Don't get caught out having to fight two fronts, concentrate your firepower, and check this out
5 havocs armed with 2xplasmagun, 2xmeltagun, combi weapon, and any icon for under 200pts. Brilliant fire support role and your opponent is likely to overlook it in favour of more tempting targets.
All bless Father Nurgle

silpheedpilot wrote:But consider this point: Replacing the Havoc launchers with Extra Armor replaces the same point cost item with something that can keep you moving after you took a table roll that should have kept you from moving AND shooting.

I see what you're saying, I do and when you put it into a percentile it really drives the point home but I have to stand by what's helped me in the past. Everything else in the list make more sense than you will ever know and it really gets me thinking; 'I have been playing this army all wrong the whole time!'

Ah, I think I see your issue: the best option is to take neither. When I look to expand the list I posted to 2500, I will take the Havoc Launchers off and only add them back when I'm certain I can't fit another whole unit. In the case of the list I posted, I had 67 points remaining, and not enough will to perfect the Dreadnoughts' equipment choices. Although it may seem ironic to say so, I really should have given the Dreadnoughts Extra Armor instead of putting Havoc Launchers on the Rhinos. The difference being Dreadnoughts' Extra Armor allows it to Assault.

Mannahnin wrote:I'm not generally a fan of Defilers or Preds against Eldar, both because Fire Dragons love to eat tanks, and because a single Glance from an EML, Brightlance, or Scatter Laser in the Pred's side armor can suppress your shooting for a turn, whereas they actually need to kill the Oblits or Havocs.

The Defiler and Predator will be fine so long as they've got each other (and the 3 Dreadnoughts, Prince, and 4 Rhinos). Most CSM lists don't have the proper target saturation for Havocs. Night Lords had it though: use Raptors.

Now, for expanding into the 2500 point range, I'd push that Monster Mash angle:

Daemon Prince, Wings, MoN, Warptime, 175
Daemon Prince, Wings, MoN, Warptime, 175
Greater Daemon, 100
Dreadnought, Missile Launcher, Heavy Flamer, 105
Dreadnought, TL-AC, Heavy Flamer, 115
Dreadnought, TL-Lascannon, 120
7 Plague Marines, Champion, 2 Meltaguns, Rhino, 231
7 Plague Marines, Champion, 2 Meltaguns, Rhino, 231
7 Plague Marines, Champion, 2 Meltaguns, Rhino, 231
10 CSM, Champion w/ Powerfist, 2 Meltaguns, IoK, Rhino, 275
10 CSM, 2 Meltaguns, Rhino, 205
3 Obliterators, 225
Deflier, 2 CCWs, 150
Predator, Autolas, 130

That leaves you 32 points, because I don't feel like doing the final, menial bean-counting. I was sorely tempted to take a ton of Bikers instead of that last block of 10 CSM, but I figured you wouldn't want to stray that far from the beaten path.

Silpheed - you haven't beaten an Eldar in 3 years???

I haven't ever beaten one. Not one - In 22 years!!!

Thats why I'm considering shifting over.

Instead of even using rhinos, stay put and force him to come to you. Split your obliterators into two groups and add another one.

Deep strike and land, using your icons, behind his vehicles to get around their rules. Even add some terminators with combi meltas. He is running heavy mech eldar from what I can see, mech eldar rely on hitting you when they want to. Instead hit rear and blow their vehicles, then the units.

Your goal is to kill the farseer and/or banshees first, since they are going to be the heavy hitters against your force.

You could also do well by splitting up some of the plague marines. Take two from every unit, and form another squad of 8 plagues. This will cause more targets for him, improving your odds.

Your demon prince should be doing well in melee, is he losing? Whats happening with him?

Your defiler, is he doing any good or just getting lanced on first turn?

juraigamer wrote:Instead of even using rhinos, stay put and force him to come to you.

No, no, do not do this. Silpheed can fight with all of 18% of his army outside of 12", and the Eldar will never have a reason to come to him.

@juraigamer

I'm glad you asked how well my units do because no one seems to care about that when you're looking at things from as statistical viewpoint

My Daemon Prince usually does okay WHEN he sees action. The problem is getting him into action without taking a bunch of bright lances up my butt.

My Defiler, on the other hand, usually is awarded my MVP medal. It takes a beating and keeps on kicking. When the Battle Cannon is silenced, I move forward and blast away with the lascannon. If that goes then I lumber on and assault things.

@DarkHound

I really like your list set ups, I really do. It's soooo much stuff crammed into 2500 points. Thank you for taking the time to give feedback.