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At his full power, beofre the heresy, with all his gear and awesomeness, could the Emporer kill a Chaos God? But would a Chaos God have a form that he could destroy? I personally thought that he could, as Horus was pretty much elvated to the status of a chaos god, and the Emporer didn't just kill him, he erased his entire existence, body, mind and soul.

Horus wasn't anywhere near the level of a Chaos god. He was infused with their power, he was their avatar in the material realm, but he was a mere fraction of their power.

It's fairly well established that the Emperor is a mirror of the Four Powers - but where he is mostly trapped in the real world, they are in the Immaterium. Both find ways to slip into the other's domain and do battle but it's unlikely either one could ever operate at full potential in the other's world.

^ Exactly; it would be like trying to fight a seal underwater. The creature is much better than you at swimming and you cant stay under very long......

Technically if they are mirors of each other and there is a way to let both factions fight at full power. The battle would last for an eternity Until one party is lucky, then again it could just be Tzeentch's schemes.

No. If the emperor tried to get into a psychic battle with any of the gods he would be destroyed almost instantly.

The only thing making him different to a normal human was his very powerful psychic powers. These work by shaping the power of the warp and using it to change events in our dimension. He can control some of the power of the warp. The chaos gods are the warp, they can control all of it, and with much more skill.

Even if the emperor had more power the chaos gods aren't alive in the first place. You can't kill a chaos god by fighting it, they are immortal. The only way to stop them is to starve them and we don't even know if that would work.

Horus was nowhere near chaos god level. He was a very powerful human but still a human. Destroying a soul is hard for a mortal psyker but daemons can easily do it. They regularly eat souls, compared to a daemon the emperor isn't as powerful. Hecould beat most 1 vs 1 but together they will kill him.

It's hard to imagine how powerful the chaos gods are but they have all the power of every daemon in existence. By attacking them the emperor would open himself up to being attacked back. Even powerful psykers are afraid of drawing the attention of a daemon, thats why they need so much proctection. It's not what they do to your physcial body that's bad, all that warp energy just destroys your mind (this makes all of his equipment useless). Thats just 1 daemon. The empreror would have to deal with all of them at once.

How about more all of the Emporer's followers and him, vs Chaos. Horus may not have been a God, but he was extremely powerful, and was infused with a huge amount of chaos energies, and his soul would have been pretty much 'Chaos', so surely the Emporers ability to destroy something that was already part of the Chaos Gods proves something? What I really meant was one Chaos God vs The Emporer. At the moment he really isn't that well, but supposedly on his mental will acts a barrier to the eye of terror, and stops it expanding, if he died then it would grow massive.

In the books, especially in the Heresy, the Emperor is the match and equal of the Gods. The Warp is the inverse of the material universe - the four powers are reflections of humanity and the Emperor's emotions but corrupted. Their power waxes and wanes as does his.

The God-Emperor is not just a human, he is the materium's equivalent of the Chaos gods, all rolled into one being.

During the crusade the big E was almost killed by a warboss and would have been if it wasnt for Horus, If 1 warboss could kill him then I don't think Khorne would break a sweat.

Edit: Spelling

Not sure where the idea that the Emp is a manifestation of good and the opposite of chaos comes from.

He is just a pysker. A very powerful one but still just a psyker. The imperium call him the god emperor but he really isn't a god, in any way.

When compared to other mortal, human like characters (orks, eldar, humans, Tau, ect) he's at the top. These are the smallest characters in the 40k background. There are a lot of creatures from the fluf who will easily wipe out armies, and single handedly destroy planets. The chaos gods are some of the biggest in this group.

As Gorechild said the emperor has met similarly powerful non godlike enemies. Any of the most powerful creatures (C'tan, Chaos gods) would destroy him in a 1 v 1 fight.

Didnt Magnus do well enough in the warp when he entered it? Wouldnt the Emperor be more powerful so and be able to survive?
Or were the Chaos Gods just being kind/manipulating old one eye?

Although he did defeat the warp dragon, with medieval weapons, although he was weakened defeating the warp dragon and inprisioning him on Mars is still rather a good feat, the Emporer didn' fight at his full power when he fought Horus, as the Emporer still loved him and wanted him to repent. The Emporer imo, wasn't human, he was a next level in human evolution, supieror in every way; and even if he was just a powerful physker, the scale of the things he has done is massive and would a powerful physker be able to shrug off ageing?

No. Impossible. Chaos Gods are not simply 'physical greater greater daemons', they are unimaginably complex and spanning entities that are closer to forces of nature. Unless every human in the galaxy died, the chaos gods will live on.

A chaos god will never reveal itself in battle anyway. They could kill everything with a simple thought. It's much more fun to send out a greater daemon to do your work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

4M2A wrote:Not sure where the idea that the Emp is a manifestation of good and the opposite of chaos comes from.

He is just a pysker. A very powerful one but still just a psyker. The imperium call him the god emperor but he really isn't a god, in any way.

When compared to other mortal, human like characters (orks, eldar, humans, Tau, ect) he's at the top. These are the smallest characters in the 40k background. There are a lot of creatures from the fluf who will easily wipe out armies, and single handedly destroy planets. The chaos gods are some of the biggest in this group.

As Gorechild said the emperor has met similarly powerful non godlike enemies. Any of the most powerful creatures (C'tan, Chaos gods) would destroy him in a 1 v 1 fight.

Yes. This.

Emperor is overated, IMO. He would have completely lost the fight had horus became a Prince, trust me. Horus was still quite mortal at that point. With the power of a daemon prince, the emperor would have been less than a threat.

You've got it sorta backwards about 'more fun to send daemons' - the Gods cannot exist in realspace. All they can do, occasionally, is send daemons in - and even then they dissipate.

Remember this: anything that is in the material realm is subject, to some degree, to the laws of physics. This is why daemons can be destroyed (well, banished) using bullets, flame and steel.

The Gods are more powerful in the Warp than the Emperor but in his domain he holds the advantage.

Horus only got his chance to slay the Emperor because he held back, hoping that some spark of his son remained. When he realised not, he killed him with a burst of psykic energy so powerful that the Gods fled Horus' body as they knew the blast would have destroyed them utterly. This is GW's take, not mine.

Gorechild wrote:During the crusade the big E was almost killed by a warboss and would have been if it wasnt for Horus, If 1 warboss could kill him then I don't think Khorne would break a sweat.

Edit: Spelling

You know, I don't think this story is ever really done justice? I mean, the Ullanor Crusade broke the back of an Ork empire so powerful that it was seen as THE turning point for the entire Great Crusade. I'm thinking this wasn't just any warboss, more like a being at least as powerful as Ghazkull.

winnertakesall wrote:Although he did defeat the warp dragon, with medieval weapons, although he was weakened defeating the warp dragon and inprisioning him on Mars is still rather a good feat, the Emporer didn' fight at his full power when he fought Horus, as the Emporer still loved him and wanted him to repent. The Emporer imo, wasn't human, he was a next level in human evolution, supieror in every way; and even if he was just a powerful physker, the scale of the things he has done is massive and would a powerful physker be able to shrug off ageing?

Do you mean the Dragon? 'cos as a c'tan i doubt he would have wanted anything to do with the warp.

Exopheric wrote:

Gorechild wrote:During the crusade the big E was almost killed by a warboss and would have been if it wasnt for Horus, If 1 warboss could kill him then I don't think Khorne would break a sweat.

Edit: Spelling

You know, I don't think this story is ever really done justice? I mean, the Ullanor Crusade broke the back of an Ork empire so powerful that it was seen as THE turning point for the entire Great Crusade. I'm thinking this wasn't just any warboss, more like a being at least as powerful as Ghazkull.

Which, by that logic, would make the emperor less powerfull than Yarrick

purplefood wrote:

winnertakesall wrote:Although he did defeat the warp dragon, with medieval weapons, although he was weakened defeating the warp dragon and inprisioning him on Mars is still rather a good feat, the Emporer didn' fight at his full power when he fought Horus, as the Emporer still loved him and wanted him to repent. The Emporer imo, wasn't human, he was a next level in human evolution, supieror in every way; and even if he was just a powerful physker, the scale of the things he has done is massive and would a powerful physker be able to shrug off ageing?

Doyou mean the Dragon? 'cos as a c'tan i doubt he would have wanted anything to do with the warp.

It was THE dragon, being hit by a blackstone fortress caused him to crash into earth, which naturally he wasn't too pleased about, so started to wreck+kill the surrounding place, and then the Emporer (Saint George) fearing for the existence of humanity mounted his horse (but not in that way) and went charging at the Warp Dragon, driving his silver tipped lance into him, which hurt him quite a bit, the Emporer then 'cast' him to Mars, but not to sure how, and inprisioned in the core of the planet, forcing him into hibernation.


EDIT:400th post, yay!

Samus_aran115 wrote:Emperor is overated, IMO. He would have completely lost the fight had horus became a Prince, trust me. Horus was still quite mortal at that point. With the power of a daemon prince, the emperor would have been less than a threat.

Nonono, Horus had the combined gifts of ALL the four Chaos gods with him. He was said to be their champion, their avatar of death and destruction. At the height of his power, when he fought his father, he was more powerful than any daemon prince could ever dream to be. Would he be more powerful if he was himself a daemon prince? Unlikely. The Chaos Gods had probably already given him all the power they could. Horus was their only chance of ever defeating the IoM at the time, they probably "upgraded" him as much as possible.

And I don't think the Emperor is overrated. During his fight against Horus, he used only a fraction of his power, but still manage to put up a fight against his son. When he was defeated (you know, with one less limb, an open throat, etc), he finally summoned all of his power, and obliterated Horus in one single psychic blast. I agree he would not do much against a Chaos God though...

Even if Horus had access to more "daemon prince" powers, the Emperor would still bitch slap him back to the Eye if he summoned all of his psychic strength.

4M2A wrote: Any of the most powerful creatures (C'tan, Chaos gods) would destroy him in a 1 v 1 fight.

Ever heard of the Void Dragon? One of the most powerful C'tans? Well, Big E managed to lock him into a box somewhere on Mars for all eternity.

Yeah that isn't the point. If any ork warboss is a threat then the chaos gods would kill him without a thought.

The gods could exist in the real world but the energy required to make them manifest would be huge. It has never happened because no one can create that much power. The structure of the gods is swirls in the warp just like daemons just on a much larger scale. Daemons aren't affected by the laws of physics at all. The reason physical ttacks work is they break the daemons hold on reality. The more the daemon has to concentrate on repairing itself the less energy it can spent staying in this dimension. Even if the emp killed them they would just return to the realm of chaos.

Daemons are small parts of the chaos gods. Khorne would be like joining every khorne daemon together and all of knornes power in the warp. It would be inconcievable powerful. The distrubance it would do to reality would be enough to destroy the emperor. Read some of the fluff about planets stuck in warp storms and about what happens when angron leaves the eye. The warp storm would be huge. Slaanesh's birth caused problems for the emp and that is nothing compared to one of the gods entering reality. If angron can cause so much damage and he is an insignifacntly small part of khorne what would the whole god do. Skarbrand was one of the most powerful blood thirsters ever, the kind of creature that can defeat primarchs. He tried to defeat khorne and got slapped across the realms of chaos. This shows how powerful he would be in the real world.

This is if he even bothered to physically attack the emperor, daemons can attack the minds of psykers directly he could kill the emp without going anywhere near him.

The chaos gods didn't flee his body the emperor just pushed the chaos power out of him then destroyed him.

How would being in reality help the emperor? Chaos understands how reality works and when daemons don't like the way reality works they just change the physical world.

Ever heard of the Void Dragon? One of the most powerful C'tans? Well, Big E managed to lock him into a box somewhere on Mars for all eternity

Which is another one of GW concistency mistakes. If you read the fluff about the necrons you see how powerful the C'tan are. The C'tan can alter the physical world around them however they like. They turned an entire species into necrons just by bending reality. They scared the eldar so much that they built weapons that sucked planets into the warp just to kill them. The C'tan survived being eaten by another one of their kind.

How can the emperor trap something when the c'tan's natural state allows them to walk through matter and to teleport across the galaxy? What could the emperor do to scare something that powerful, the emperor definately didn't plan on sucking earth into the warp and if he had destroyed it's body it would just teleport away. Its just another case of GW wanting to make someone look powerful so making it do the impossible.

winnertakesall wrote:

purplefood wrote:

winnertakesall wrote:Although he did defeat the warp dragon, with medieval weapons, although he was weakened defeating the warp dragon and inprisioning him on Mars is still rather a good feat, the Emporer didn' fight at his full power when he fought Horus, as the Emporer still loved him and wanted him to repent. The Emporer imo, wasn't human, he was a next level in human evolution, supieror in every way; and even if he was just a powerful physker, the scale of the things he has done is massive and would a powerful physker be able to shrug off ageing?

Doyou mean the Dragon? 'cos as a c'tan i doubt he would have wanted anything to do with the warp.

It was THE dragon, being hit by a blackstone fortress caused him to crash into earth, which naturally he wasn't too pleased about, so started to wreck+kill the surrounding place, and then the Emporer (Saint George) fearing for the existence of humanity mounted his horse (but not in that way) and went charging at the Warp Dragon, driving his silver tipped lance into him, which hurt him quite a bit, the Emporer then 'cast' him to Mars, but not to sure how, and inprisioned in the core of the planet, forcing him into hibernation.


EDIT:400th post, yay!

My point was he isn't called the warp dragon...
Apparently he is the void dragon but that doesn't seem right... besides i'm pretty sure the only wat Big E could take him was because he had been shot up pretty bad by the blackstone fortresses...
It seems the ultimate ruler of makind is matched by the ultimate ruler of everyone else... apart from the Tau...

They didn't want to Kill the Emp. 10,00 years of madness beats a quick victory. They why they gave Horus visions of how things would be. And that's how things turned out. They just tricked hurus into thinking he could change things. They never intended for him to win.

The C'tan didn't just magic the Necrontyr into the dead-metal Necrons, they have no warp powers, just technology. Which is magic in the Arthur C Clarke sense...

The C'tan's undoing is the warp. It is an anathema to them, they seek to rid it from the universe for all eternity. This is what the Cadian Gates were intended to do, this is why they hate the Eldar with a passion.

The Emperor could do many things, including use the warp and psychic energy. This is likely how he imprisoned the Void Dragon.

I think he could at least hold his own in the warp.

I believe it was in Fulgrim where Eldrad mentions 'seeing a golden figure in the Warp fighting the Ruinous Powers back...'


However, indirectly he was beating them...hence why the Chaos Gods were so aggressive in turning the Primarchs. His vision of a secular/logical based society would indirectly weaken the 4 powers. Which, is why he was so adamant about pushing the secular logic throughout the IoM. Think about it...if he allowed humans to believe in the existence of 'him' as a God..it's only another hop/step to decide to worship 'other' Gods. Better just remove all worship and siphon the power from the Ruinous Powers that way...

The C'tan don't have warp powers but they do have powers to change reality. They sort of cheat the laws of physics.

The dragon is still know to be able to contact those outside of mars, if it wanted to escape it could just call some crons over to shut down whatever prison it was in, necrons have very effective anti warp technology. We know that he can control technology around him, if he was trapped he would probably be rather angry and could easily shut down all technology on mars, by the way he is helping the admech it's possible the dragon wants to be on mars. Beside the emperor still needs to get to mars and be able to survive there long enough to bury the drgon at the centre of the planet- mars is quite deep I can see this taking a while. GW just said "well he did it" without any explanation, IIRC space transport was rather basic 1000 years ago.

p.s The necrons didn't make the cadian pylons. The last active necrons went to sleep long before the fall of the eldar. This is the first time the crons ave seen the eye of terror.

@ sexiest hero: I agree, if chaos won humanity would have died out. They succeeded in stopping the emperor's plan and locking the imperium in it's current state allowing them to feed of it for longer.

It tried. The Necrons got as far as the Solar System before being destroyed. The last ship crash landed on Mars...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

4M2A wrote:p.s The necrons didn't make the cadian pylons. The last active necrons went to sleep long before the fall of the eldar. This is the first time the crons ave seen the eye of terror.

Not so. I believe it's in Eisenhorn...

Who destroyed the necron fleet?

Various Imperial war machines I believe. The final one the tech priests on Mars had to break out thier BIG guns, and when your the most advanced planet in the Imperium, their big guns make Nova Cannons look like pea shooters!

4M2A wrote:No. If the emperor tried to get into a psychic battle with any of the gods he would be destroyed almost instantly.

The only thing making him different to a normal human was his very powerful psychic powers. These work by shaping the power of the warp and using it to change events in our dimension. He can control some of the power of the warp. The chaos gods are the warp, they can control all of it, and with much more skill.

Green text=My thoughts exactly.

-Cypher- wrote:

4M2A wrote:No. If the emperor tried to get into a psychic battle with any of the gods he would be destroyed almost instantly.

The only thing making him different to a normal human was his very powerful psychic powers. These work by shaping the power of the warp and using it to change events in our dimension. He can control some of the power of the warp. The chaos gods are the warp, they can control all of it, and with much more skill.

Green text=My thoughts exactly.

Yes, their power in the warp is far greater than His. No it is not total. There are other entities in the warp and they are constantly battling one another as well as everything else in both realspace and the immaterium.

And they have very limited power in the materium. They can only force through when there is a warp rift or a particularly powerful, vulnerable psyker. And they are very unstable when they do - soon dissipating.

The daemon gods would only be able to physically manifest if the entire galaxy were plunged into the the Warp- and this may indeed be their ultimate goal. The Emperor's plan to defeat Chaos was to harness the webway, sidestepping the necessity for psykers and warp travel altogether. Rather than confront the gods, he wanted to avoid them and starve them by elevating Science! over faith as a force in human society.

What does the Imperium get stuck with instead, after the Horus Heresy? Witchcraft, mutation, and heresy!