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Hey folks!

The main rulebook says that when determining penetration results, you add a D6 to the strength of the weapon, where some weapons have modifiers (Meltas, lances, etc). Living armour says that no additional dice may be used when rolling for penetration.

The two arguments:

1. Vindicares roll 4D6 to penetrate; none of those are EXTRA dice. They're all the "base" dice.

2. Armour penetration is STR + D6. Dice beyond that are additional.

My Take:

I don't put a whole lot of stock in #1. The rulebook specifically says (page 60) to roll a D6 and add the result to the weapon's strength. Despite the Vindicare entry not saying, "roll 3 extra dice for armour penetration" it doesn't have to - because armour penetration is already defined in the rulebook, with the vindicare modifying it with +3 dice.

Core Rule: Armour penetration is STR + D6
Vindicare: Roll 4D6 for armour penetration instead of STR + D6
Monolith: Only STR + D6 is allowed.

So where specific > general....

You get the Core Rule (general) allowing STR+D6, with the Vindicare rule coming next, adding a general rule of rolling 4D6 against all vehicles, and lastly a very specific rule on one vehicle disallowing those additional dice.

Same as with his old rules he gets 4D6 vs monoliths; as that's the strength value.

Isn't the Vindicare's strength simply treated as 4D6 against a vehicle? Nothing really for the monolith's special rule to override.

bushido wrote:Isn't the Vindicare's strength simply treated as 4D6 against a vehicle? Nothing really for the monolith's special rule to override.

His rule doesn't say that his STR is determined by 4D6. Rather, it says that he rolls 4D6 penetration.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bushido wrote:Isn't the Vindicare's strength simply treated as 4D6 against a vehicle? Nothing really for the monolith's special rule to override.

No, that is not the case.

I say 4d6, as per the old rules, until I hear otherwise.

Extra dice or not, no weapon ever gets more than the unaugmented strength of the weapon plus 1d6 for armor penetration against the Monolith. That's straight from the Monolith rules. Used to be different due to the FAQ, but that is no longer the case.

isnt a sniper rifle str3?

so its str3 +4d6 isnt it?

"In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what." Final line of the Living Metal rule. If the Vindicare's gun has no str. and just rolls 4D6 for armour pen. then he can, at max, score a str. of 6 as both specifically mention being for armour pen.

I'd say the more specific rules of the Vindicare override the (slightly) more general rules of the Monolith. I see it as a special case, but it's by no means concrete.

DoW

does the Vidicare rifle count as SNIPER! lol

if it does, its str3 +4d6 isnt it?
this would sort the question out

DogOfWar wrote:I'd say the more specific rules of the Vindicare override the (slightly) more general rules of the Monolith. I see it as a special case, but it's by no means concrete.

DoW

Just sayin', the Exitus Rifle is S3 versus vehicles because it is a sniper rifle. The Vindicare then gets to roll 4D6 as opposed to the normal 1D6 when rolling for armour pen. Living Metal specifically blocks any extra dice, meaning that you're back to "standard", i.e. S3+1D6. The Living Metal rule is more specific than the Exitus Rifle in this case.

I'd say no after reading Azure's post. Unless 4D6 is considered its base strength for the shot, then the extra 3D6 are for armor penetration, which against the monolith is only ever D6.

yep, thats what i thought, this is why i was asking if it was counted as a sniper shot. this does infact make it nastier against other vehicles though

4d6
roll and 6's and you ger rending, very nasty

Fetterkey wrote:I say 4d6, as per the old rules, until I hear otherwise.

You know, the FAQ about the vindicare getting his 4D6 against the monolith was removed a while ago.

Yep, we know. Which is why a lot of us are saying ST 3 plus 1d6, and rending most definitely does not work against Living Metal.

Concur here.

Everyone keeps trying to get around that Living Metal rule, and only Wraithcannon and EMP grenades have so far (as they don't roll for penetration exactly..)

I bet you they remove it for 'simplicity's sake' when they redo the codex though...

Ascalam wrote:
Everyone keeps trying to get around that Living Metal rule, and only Wraithcannon and EMP grenades have so far (as they don't roll for penetration exactly..)

Shokk Attack Gun. says hi.

And get argued about all over the place The camps are about 50/50.

Wraithcannon and EMP grenades are unarguable in their effect.They either do nothing, glance automatically or Pen automatically.

Still nothing like the Tau Railgun, though. Pure S10 AP1 goodness.

I agree with you, Dash. 3+D6 which isn't going to do anything to the Monolith. It's the Necron codex, guys! Give it what it has!

Azure wrote:"In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what." Final line of the Living Metal rule. If the Vindicare's gun has no str. and just rolls 4D6 for armour pen. then he can, at max, score a str. of 6 as both specifically mention being for armour pen.

I don't know how you got to S6 but I believe that this line tells it all, unaugmented D6 and 1 other D6, no more. This is what it says, so you can only get 9 Azure due to snipers already getting S3.

They were trying to be unambiguous in this and failed miserably, plus how the hell is a single sniper bullet going to destroy a Monolith??

phantommaster wrote:They were trying to be unambiguous in this and failed miserably, plus how the hell is a single sniper bullet going to destroy a Monolith??

Have you seen Star Wars original trilogy?

Doesn't matter that sniper guns do S + D6 + rending on the armor penetration, the Grey Knight codex overrides this.

Thus it does 4D6 (as there is no strength value for it) + rending.

Basically, it boils down to almost the same argument as meltabombs vs monoliths. Are meltabombs 8+2D6 AP or are they 8+D6 +extra D6 AP?

isnt meltabombs always rolled only one d6?

phantommaster wrote:

Azure wrote:"In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what." Final line of the Living Metal rule. If the Vindicare's gun has no str. and just rolls 4D6 for armour pen. then he can, at max, score a str. of 6 as both specifically mention being for armour pen.

I don't know how you got to S6 but I believe that this line tells it all, unaugmented D6 and 1 other D6, no more. This is what it says, so you can only get 9 Azure due to snipers already getting S3.

They were trying to be unambiguous in this and failed miserably, plus how the hell is a single sniper bullet going to destroy a Monolith??

Sorry! Didn't know about the sniper thing having a base str. of 3. DX Anyhow, the point still stands that the Monolith won't be glanced and certainly not penn'd

Doesn't matter that sniper guns do S + D6 + rending on the armor penetration, the Grey Knight codex overrides this.

It may do, but living metal also overrides the 4D6.


As said, some things are beyond it, including haywires
Vindi however, isnt.

Yeah Haywire grenades do not a happy monolith make.

The vindicare can try to ping away all day though, but if he chips my paintjob, i'm sending the nightbringer after him.

I prefer a can of "Warp Rift" spray for those pesky Necron infestations.

(What Living Metal? Auto-pen Beyoches!)

I need to get the GK book
Not interested in playing them 1 bit, but would like to have thier rules about.


In which case, i think i may grab a 3rd lith while im at it.

jy2 wrote:Doesn't matter that sniper guns do S + D6 + rending on the armor penetration, the Grey Knight codex overrides this.

Thus it does 4D6 (as there is no strength value for it) + rending.

Basically, it boils down to almost the same argument as meltabombs vs monoliths. Are meltabombs 8+2D6 AP or are they 8+D6 +extra D6 AP?

No, the GK codex doesn't change anything. The GK codex tells us what the round will NORMALLY get against vehicles. It doesn't do anything to change the Living Metal rules which deny anything more than unaugmented ST plus 1d6. Fine example of more specific (penetrator against Living Metal) vs general (penetrator against vehicles in general).

Grey Knights codex, page 53 wrote:
A Turbo Penetrator shot has an armour penetration of 4D6

Talk about vague. Thank you Ward, you useless hack.

First, the Turbo Penetrator does not use a strength value. It's not 3+4D6, it's just 4D6.

So if it's an issue of interpretation as below:

Basically, it boils down to almost the same argument as meltabombs vs monoliths. Are meltabombs 8+2D6 AP or are they 8+D6 +extra D6 AP?

then it's the former, rather than the latter.

As for how this applies to Monoliths... fething Ward...