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I hope im getting to a great army so all your comments would be welcome

So this is my 3rd attempt at my eldar bearing in mind i havent got any units yet. The trouble is that i dont know what to scrap to get it down to 2000pts and cant decide because im not an expert on eldar yet. I have changed it to a 2000pt army because i felt that 1500 isn't enough.



Eldar Army List Total: 2198pts

HQ
The Avatar of Khaine 155pts
Elrad Ulthran 210pts

Elites
5 fire dragons 80pts
with wave serpent with spirit stones 100pts
9 striking scorpions and exarch 177pts
with biting blade
with wave serpent with spirit stones 100pts
Harlequin troupe
Shadow seer 250pts
9 harlequins with kisses
with wave serpent with spirit stones 100pts


Troops
9 Dire Avengers 120pts
9 Dire Avengers 120pts
9 Dire Avengers 120pts
10 Wraith guard including warlock with 396pts
Conceal and spiritseer


Heavy Support
Fire prism 115pts
Fire prism 115pts
Wraith lord with bright lance 140pts
and wraith sword

Well I'm not an Eldar player myself but I own the Dex and here are my thoughts off the top of my head (for what they're worth )

I don't think you need the Wave Serpents for the Striking Scorpions (just give them an Exarch with Shadowstrike) & the Harlequins could use the full set of extras IMHO.

Also your Wave Serpents, I think, HAVE to have 1 additional weapon - (but I may be very wrong ).

As for the Fire Dragons you may consider (if you can afford it and the experimental rules don't put you off) the Forgeworld Shadow Spectres - sure they're twice the £ but they have Jetpacks and can potentially nuke any vehicle in a turn and they offer more speed and tactical maneuverability for me.

You might consider dropping some, if not all, of the Dire Avengers and take Guardians instead, as they're cheaper and if led by a Warlock/boosted by Eldrad can be just as effective, escpecially as you haven't given them Exarchs w/Bladestorm (which personally is the only way I'd take them). For the same points +/- you can have 10 Guardians, a Warlock and a Support Weapon of some description.

Eldar are, to me, tricky to get to grips with as they have a lot of cool stuff to fit within anything short of 2,500pts. The Wraithguard are easily your most expensive unit and were you to drop them you'd have about 2-3 units more on the table (though none as hard/cool)? This is probably why I haven't bought an Eldar army as of yet, as I'd NEED one of everything so I could pick and choose at whim.

Other than the scraps I've given I'd say hope a more experienced Eldar player chips in.

Hope this helps

Ok, lets start with your HQ: Eldrad is pretty sound as an HQ.
Drop the avatar, he's going to be shot to pieces pretty quick. Use a Farseer with doom and guide instead.

Elites: The scorps don't need a serpent, like warspawned said use an exarch with shadowstrike.
The dragons are fine, arm the serpent with scatter lasers.
The harlies, I haven't used them so I can't give you any advice for those.

Troops: Drop the wraithguard, although their stats are nice, they'll be shredded before they can be in range with their guns. Use a jetbike squad instead.
Drop an avenger squad for a jetbike squad, keep them in reserve for a late objective snatch at the end.
For your other avenger squads, they'll need an exarch w/dual shuri-catas and bladestorm. Mount both in a serpent each with bright lances.

Heavy Support: imo, they are sound

I don't know what the point cost is but I hope this helps.

There are a couple legal issues with you choices and some balance issues as well. I'll do my best to address these things completely.

First, one of the other posters is right. You need a turret weapon for the serpents. Most of the options are solid but my choices depend on the role of the unit being transported, what kind of tanks I expect to encounter and how many points I have floating around. For all purpose medium AV, EML is fine. I rarely take BLs because of their cost but if you do want them the Serpent is our most accurate BL platform.

Harlequins can't take a dedicated transport. If you want them to ride in a Serpent you have to buy one for another unit and then deploy separately, embarking the Harlies on turn 1. It takes up a little extra time but can be done that way.

Balance-wise I feel you have a couple mixed priorities. I think your mechanized wing is extremely CC heavy and the scorpions may struggle to assault from their tank without fleet. I'd rather use Banshees, Avengers and Dragons as these units can support one another well, the Banshees have fleet and can take their own transport so they don't have to waste a turn embarking like the Harlies do.

Your foot soldiers are very short ranged and I think they will struggle to find targets worthy of their impressive short range fire. They also have good Ld and don't take advantage of the Avatar's fearless bubble. If you really want to use a force like this I'd recommend multiple guardian defenders with heavy weapon platforms, only 1 Avenger unit and a counter assault unit of either Scorpions or Harlequins. The Guardians' ability to fire heavies on the move is certainly one of their best traits and this is a solid way to take advantage of it.

I really recommend proxying this army any way you can to see if you like I before you buy it. Hybrid armies can be effective though maybe not tournament-stomping. I wouldn't let that stop you from having a good time. Bu basically if you play this and ask yourself for each unit "how do these guys deliver pain to the enemy? Who else can they work with to achieve that pain quickest? Who are they targetting that they can eliminate quickly?" those kinds of questions will help you balance and coordinate your army.

Happy gaming man

I've been playing eldar since I started 40k.
Avatar is a great Hq use him to just run up the middle and take up shots, more as a distraction.

The harlequins I would definately not put in a serpent, it's a waste of points, if you have a shadowseer you don't need the serpent. They won't be able to shoot at you with her ability until they are close enough for you to assault them anyways.

The scorpions you could put in a serpent but then you cant take advantage of the infiltrate ability. And the scorpions unlike other eldar, can stay alive a little better on foot with their 3+ save.

Eldrad is a great Hq, she has a lot of great abilities, having her by the dire avengers being able to doom and then guide two untis of dire avengers is amazing. another option would be to put her with the harlequins, or scorpions, to give them fortune and doom and guide. She is amzing. although if your just gonna have her with one unit I would say just go with a standard farseer to save on points, but if you want her by multiple untis, definately go with eldrad.

With the dire avengers, as an experienced eldar play, and I myself playing 3 units of dire avengers. I would STRONGLY recommend exachs with 2 shruiken catapults and bladestorm. Bladestorm is what makes the dire avengers good, they need it! and the exarch is essential, i couldn't tell you how many times I've only an exarch left of my untit and he has survived. That goes for all eldar units, trust me, the exrachs are what makes the eldar, always always take exarchs. Also for the dire avengers, it is difficult to run them on foot, with T 3 they die quick and their only good use is for shooting. So I would reccommend putting them all in wave serpents, this is what I do, and this way you can keep all of you DA safe, the serpent drives up the DA's pop out bladestrom and then get back in next turn and fly away. This make them much more affective, and makes them much better at capturing objectives. Also, if you have eldrad with them, for all eldar psychic powers you don't need line of sight so if she is inside the tank you can drive around and cast psychic powers out of the tank, and keep her in the tank when the DA pop out, she stays much safer this way.

Anyways, Hope these suggestions help. Happy to help with any other questions you have about eldar or anything I've talked about. I've only briefly talked about these strategies so feel free to ask anything.

To me at least, it seems like you really should go for a foot Eldar list considering the units you wish to include.

Anyway, check out this thread, and more specifically Blackmoor's advice. Its all sound, and will give you a good idea on how to build an effective list with those units (Eldrad, Avatar, Wraightuard, Harlies, and wraithlord)
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/354496.page
if you are going to build a non mech force, blackmoor is the undisputed expert here on dakka.

here is some of my input though, admittedly not as good as Blackmoor's for foot, as I play fast eldar.

As has been pointed out the Harlies cannot take a wave serpent dedicated transport. Its not all bad, as if you wanted to give them one give the Scorpions outflank and let the Harlies hide behind it turn one and hop on in.
I prefer Banshees mechanized for the reasons stated above by dnanoodle. I find that the ability to fleet helps them assault out of that wave serpent. And unlike Scorpions banshees are armed to take on targets that Dire Avengers have trouble with, termies and fnp marines. They are also better than scorpions these days because they go first, period. This means they perform better against new CC threats like Halbred GKs and Dark Eldar far better than scorpions could hope to. The ability to take a dedicated transport- for me puts them above harlequins. In a foot list Harlies reign supreme.

I could see scorpions being used in a foot list to keep pressure on the sides of the boards. If the fear of an outflank strike keeps your opponent funneled into your advancing wraithwall- the scorpions were worth the points even if they don't actually get to assault.

If you want to run a squad of Dire Avengers, just take one. Give em Defend + Shimmer Shield, and use them as charge blockers. Position them as best you can to deny multi charges, and possibly put a fortune on em (although that is risky as it invovles either letting the Avatar or Guard go without). They tarpit like pros with defend and re rolling saves, and you can bail em out of combat with your harlies and avatar in your turn. Otherwise you are better off with guardians for the heavy weapons.

anyway, good luck with your list.

I dont know how to make this more clear to you. THIS ISNT 4th EDITION, FOOTSLOGGING DOESNT WORK , ESPECIALLY WITH 3 toughness and 4+ armor saves on your TROOPS.

Imo go play orcs because your using their tactics with an eldar codex.

I know the Eldar models look really cool, but you actually have to use the codex to the few advantages it has.

If you beat anyone with this list, they are either mentally handicapped or playing with a point value half of what this is.

If you dont understand the strength's of Eldar please go look it up, because right now your off the mark compleatly.

I agree ^^ footslogging eldar doesn't work, toughness 3 doesn't last.

Smitty0305 wrote:I dont know how to make this more clear to you. THIS ISNT 4th EDITION, FOOTSLOGGING DOESNT WORK , ESPECIALLY WITH 3 toughness and 4+ armor saves on your TROOPS.

Imo go play orcs because your using their tactics with an eldar codex.

I know the Eldar models look really cool, but you actually have to use the codex to the few advantages it has.

If you beat anyone with this list, they are either mentally handicapped or playing with a point value half of what this is.

If you dont understand the strength's of Eldar please go look it up, because right now your off the mark compleatly.

Calm down, have a piece of cheese...

It all depends on the opponent. Sure mech is considered to be a surer way of gaming these days, but I only have one of each Eldar tank excluding the Night Spinner and I'm doing fine. And no, I'm not fighting slowed people.

In fact, this list is not going to work well.
I'd consider some battle reports here at Dakka and look for the Eldar lists there.

How many jetbikes should i take?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
HQ
Eldrad - 210
Avatar - 155

Elites
8 Harlequins inc shadowseer all with kisses (cover for the wraithguard) – 206
9 striking scorpions and exarch 197
with biting blade and shadow strike



Troops
10 Dire Avengers inc Exarch + 2 x shuricats - 137
10 Guardians + EML + Warlock + Embolden + Singing Spear + Embolden = 123
10 Guardians + EML + Warlock + Embolden + Singing Spear + Embolden = 123
10 Wraith guard including warlock with 406
Conceal and spiritseer + Destructor


Heavy Support
3 War Walkers + 6 Scatter Lasers = 180
Fire Prism with spirit stones = 125
1 Wraithlord + Wraithsword + Bright Lance 140

TOTAL: 2002pts

Legally, you can't have more than one power on The warlock, and conceal is more important than Destructor on the 'guard.

As Blackmoor said in the other thread, the defenders don't need a warlock, they have almost 0 aggro because nobody takes them seriously. If you do run a warlock on them, just go with conceal. Lets them roll the 5+ save against most weapons. Embolden isn't necessary due to the Avatar's fearless bubble. If you do decide to run a warlocks, bigger squads > more squads though you lose out on heavy weapons, you do get a bit more bang for your buck from conceal. They also make a better screen for the wraithguard then harlies. Harlies should be kept safely behind your lines, and used to counter charge things that manage to get stuck into your wraithguard and guardians.

I'd ditch the Avengers and your Fire Prism. Use the points to get 2 Lance + EML wraithlords to march with your main force. You'll need the extra long range anti tank.

If you have any points left over from this slip in a squad of jetbikes. When running bikes, take them in small squads. 3 with a shuri cannon, and a warlock with embolden and singing spear if points allow. keep them in reserve / hidden as best you can and use them to zip over to an objective at the end of the game.

Biting Blade seems fine on your scorpions. It definitely makes the squad more threatening to vehicles hanging out on the table edge, and encourages them to shift towards the center a bit more then the claw. Just be warned that you will be considerably less effective against MEQ without the claw. And also remember that with DE, Tyranids, and Dark Eldar on the loose, striking scorpions have it tough. Initiative 6 seems to be given out like candy these days, and Scorps have huge problems with Stealers, Wytches, and Halbred Knights... Against these new and (mostly) popular armies, the funneling tactic may not work, as scorpions just aren't as scary as they need to be.

EDIT: lol I misspelled "shift" and activated the language filter

HQ
Eldrad - 210
Avatar - 155

Elites
8 Harlequins including shadowseer all with kisses – 206
9 striking scorpions and exarch 197
with biting blade and shadow strike



Troops
10 Dire Avengers Inc Exarch + 2 x shuricats – 137
In wave serpent with Twin Linked Scatter lasers 115
10 Guardians + EML = 100
10 Guardians + EML = 100
10 Wraith guard including warlock with 396
Conceal and spiritseer
4 Jetbikes + Warlock with Jetbike 142
And destructor skill


Heavy Support
3 War Walkers + 6 Scatter Lasers = 180
Fire Prism with spirit stones = 125
1 Wraithlord + Wraithsword + Bright Lance 140

TOTAL: 2004pts

Drop destructor off the jetbike lock, give them embolden and a singing spear. Get a shuri cannon on one of the bikes. Drop it to 3+warlock if you need the points.

Don't take 1 prism. Take 2 prisms or 1 nightspinner. Solo prisms are weaker than you'd think, even with BS4.

Conceal on the spiritseer is a mixed bag - it can save some models, it can be a waste as you march behind guardians in cover all game.

You're still going 40% melee 60% shooty, and in this list you've dropped the dragons so you're lacking anti-tank. For shooting, you have 2 BS3 EMLs and a BS4 bright lance for medium armor, but 31 S6 shots once you get your cannon on the bikes. The war walkers are a helluva lot of dakka, you won't need much more in the way of S6 power allowing you to focus on the troop march.

Drop the avengers, get another guardian squad with a 3rd EML. Consider getting embolden locks in all 3 guardian squads, losing 3 guys will force a Ld7 test and you don't want to fail one of those. Still get the serpent, give it to the harlies. Outflank with scorpions, deploy the walkers, guardians go first with wraithguard behind, then walkers and wraithlord(s). Consider dropping prism for more walkers or another wraithlord. Try to get an EML on the serpent, but laser is nice.

Jetbikes and harlie's serpent ride up a weak flank, protected by the bulk of your army, and sweep across with the jetlock and cannon hitting side/rear armor on transports and the harlies assaulting the troops inside. Scorps come in hopefully with them in Turn 3 or so and add to the carnage. Don't hit TEQ's with anything less than harlies + avatar.

Blackmoor's advice is great, go read it at that other link. Just waiting on BlueDagger now.

HQ
Eldrad - 210
Avatar - 155

Elites
8 Harlequins including shadowseer all with kisses – 206
9 striking scorpions and exarch 197
with biting blade and shadow strike



Troops
10 Storm Guardians 2x with fusion guns
+ warlock with destructor + Singing spear 136
In wave serpent with Twin Linked Scatter lasers 115
10 Guardians + EML = 100
10 Guardians + EML = 100
10 Wraith guard including warlock with 396
Conceal and spiritseer
4 Jetbikes + Warlock with Jetbike 142
And destructor skill


Heavy Support
3 War Walkers + 6 Scatter Lasers = 180
Fire Prism with spirit stones = 125
1 Wraithlord + Wraithsword + Bright Lance 140

TOTAL: 1996pts



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Storm Guadians are actually 130tps not 136pts sorry

I really don't know what you want from us elliot...

we can't help you if you don't listen to our advice. You keep posting the same list up, with very minimal changes, despite everybody giving almost the same advice about certain units in your army.

From what I can gather your minimal changes in each iteration of the list seem to be moving in the right direction.

But you really need to change the jetbikes

3 jetbikes w/ cannon, + warlock w/ singing spear and embolden.

and your heavy support needs to be re done. 3 WW can stay, and that set up kicks ass, but please ditch your prism for another lord. If you refuse to lose the heavy support grav tank at LEAST take a night spinner. They work much better solo than prisms.

If you do decide on lords (a great choice for foot lists) find the points to run them as EML + Lance (with the flamer options).

get the points by dropping the Storm Guardian Squad. It doesn't really fit with the theme of your list, and the jetbikes will be fine for snagging objectives. If you are worried about far away objectives you can use some of those points to grab an additional small jetbike squad.

if you aren't going to make these changes at least post why.

elliot1 wrote:HQ
Eldrad - 210
Avatar - 155

Elites
8 Harlequins including shadowseer all with kisses – 206
9 striking scorpions and exarch 197
with biting blade and shadow strike



Troops
10 Storm Guardians 2x with fusion guns
+ warlock with destructor + Singing spear 130
In wave serpent with Twin Linked Scatter lasers 115
10 Guardians + EML = 100
10 Guardians + EML = 100
10 Wraith guard including warlock with 396
Conceal and spiritseer
4 Jetbikes + Warlock with Jetbike 142
And destructor skill


Heavy Support
3 War Walkers + 6 Scatter Lasers = 180
Fire Prism with spirit stones = 125
1 Wraithlord + Wraithsword + Bright Lance 140

I've scratched everything that isn't (IMO) good, and now your 2000 point list is now barely 900 points. If you don't really want to take peoples advice (Smitty, akaean and Tyranid Horde have all given good advice) then I don't see why you made the thread. If you want a competitive list, listen to the experienced players that are trying to help you.


My advice (take it or leave it) is that you:

Get at least two (80 point) units of 5 fire dragons and put them in wave serpents.

Give the Fire Prisms Holo-Fields, take two of them

Drop 1 Jetbike (and possibly the warlock), give 1 a shuriken cannon

Give the storm guardians flamers rather than fusion guns

Add either another storm guardian/destructor squad or a unit of Dire Avengers with bladestorm

If you're wiling to try any of these things then you'll be on your way to getting a solid list.

Ive got 6 points to spare so i don't know what to add in
HQ
Eldrad - 210
Avatar – 155 HQ TOTAL 365

Elites
8 Harlequins including shadowseer all with kisses – 206
9 striking scorpions and exarch 197
with biting blade and shadow strike ELITES TOTAL 403



Troops
10 Guardians + EML = 100
10 Guardians + EML = 100
10 Wraith guard including warlock with 396
Conceal and spiritseer
4 Jetbikes 1x with shuriken cannon + Warlock with Jetbike 140
And Embolden skill and Singing spear
TROOPS TOTAL 736


Heavy Support
3 War Walkers + 6 Scatter Lasers 180
1 Wraithlord + EML+ Bright Lance 155
1 Wraithlord + EML+ Bright Lance 155 HS TOTAL 490
TOTAL: 1994pts



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry i didnt refresh the page so i havent seen or taken on board his comments


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry

Thanks for all the advice its been really great

HQ
Eldrad - 210
Avatar – 155 HQ TOTAL 365

Elites
8 Harlequins including shadowseer all with kisses – 206
9 striking scorpions and exarch 197
with biting blade and shadow strike ELITES TOTAL 403



Troops
10 Guardians + EML = 100
10 Guardians + EML = 100
10 Wraith guard including warlock with 396
Conceal and spiritseer
4 Jetbikes 1x with shuriken cannon + Warlock with Jetbike 140
And Embolden skill and Singing spear
TROOPS TOTAL 736


Heavy Support
3 War Walkers + 6 Scatter Lasers 180
Fire Prism W/ holofields 150
Fire Prism W/ holofields 150 HS TOTAL 480
TOTAL: 1984pts

Ive got 14pts spare so could you tell me what to use them on?

Now you are cooking with fire.

Gorechild (and smitty) are just suggesting you change gears and go fully mech. Strictly competitively speaking Mech is slightly better, no denying that, but you can make a good footdar list, and Blackmoore is a very respectable player.

If you like the feel of Avatar, Wraith constructs and harlequins you can still make a competent list out of them and you should go for it, if you won't love an army its not worth it to play. An Eldar army is a labor of love anyway

that said, your latest list looks very solid. Personally I'd swap out a bike for another Harlie. Having larger numbers in the harlie squad will help you more then an extra jetbike (since they'll probably be avoiding the fray as much as they can so they can better snag a distant objective).

If you need to spend the extra 6 points you can always grab a fusion pistol for the harlies (I think those are 6 points). There really isn't much else to spend 6 points on in your list.

EDIT: I like the lord list better. They synergize better with the Avatar and wraithguard then Fire Prisms- which pay a lot for mobility. The rule of thumb is War Walkers are always good, Lords are better for foot eldar, and Prisms are better for Mech Eldar.

Well your heavy support is good now, now you just need to tidy up the rest.

Outside of a fluffy Iyanden list, you dont really want to include wraithguard, they are good, but they are over costed in both points and £'s.

Can I ask...What armies do you play at the moment? I'm getting the impression you dont understand how quickly your guardian units will die if you leave them as they are.

Ive had a couple of years absence when i played i was playing as tau empire only had abought 1000pts though


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But what would you suggest the fire prisms or the wraith lords in this particular army

Your recent lists are much better. I prefer the wraithlord variant over the prism one, mainly because you're in a foot list and you will be wasting the prisms speed and making them the only tanks for your opponents to shoot. Wraithlords at least will get cover from your wraithguard 100% of the time and have more dakka at BS4. In my Saim Hann list they would fail, but in your foot list they will perform better.

If you need points, drop one jetbike. I'd recommend dropping a jetbike and conceal off the spiritseer and pick up an embolden lock in each guardian squad. At least in one squad. A warlock with embolden improves your chance to not break from 58% to 92% when taking 25% casualties in a phase. If you sit Eldrad in a guardian squad to fortune/guide those behind him, he gets to reroll psychic tests, cause embolden is cool. You need the guardian screen for your wraithguard, so get them the morale boost they need to stick it out to the last man.

This is my final army (i hope)! So any last minute changes or advice i should do would be welcome

HQ
Eldrad - 210
Avatar – 155 HQ TOTAL 365

Elites
8 Harlequins including shadowseer all with kisses – 206
9 striking scorpions and exarch 197
with biting blade and shadow strike ELITES TOTAL 403



Troops
10 Guardians + EML + Warlock with embolden = 130
10 Guardians + EML + Warlock with embolden= 130
10 Wraith guard including warlock with spiritseer 381
2 Jetbikes 1x with shuriken cannon + Warlock with Jetbike 107
And Embolden skill and Singing spear
TROOPS TOTAL 748


Heavy Support
3 War Walkers + 6 Scatter Lasers 180
Wraithlord with Bright lance and EML 155
Wraithlord with Bright lance and EML 155 HS TOTAL 480
TOTAL: 1996pts

Please still coment if anything is bad about this army

Loving that list, its exactly what you should be playing, but there is one problem. The jetbike squad is marginally illegal - you need 3 guardian jetbikes to get a cannon, the warlock doesn't count towards that total (and we SO WISH that wasn't the case). You need 3 guardians plus a warlock, bringing the squad total from 107 to 129, so you need to find 18 points somewhere else in the list to keep the bikes looking hot.

Dropping 1 harlequin, or 1 scorpion and dropping the spear from the jetbike lock, would do it. You could also drop the jetbike warlock, its forgivable given how tight the list is. If you did that, you'd run 3 jetbikes with cannon at 76 points, and you'd have 35 points which you could use to get an extra scorpion and extra harlequin, but without a kiss. I'd say that overall that's the better option, just use the bikes extremely defensively, hug cover while shooting the cannon and turbo boost from turn 5 onwards.

As you see, you're into really tight tuning on the list, which means you're at a point where its good enough as a whole to handle itself. If you have any big playstyle questions, fire away, but otherwise I'm glad you've picked up on our advice and your list is looking really nice while still keeping the melee theme you wanted, along with those damn harlequins and scorpions you love so much!

I agree with TehScat's advice here. Getting that extra scoprion and Harlequin can change a whole lot of things.

Personally I prefer to use conceal with my Guardian defenders, but you've justified taking embolden instead and that's fine. I prefer to have them survive than die but not run away.

Thanks for the advice all of you and i hope i beat my brother